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If a player fails to explain that their character is harmed by postitive energy, in PFS, are they able to be accidentally killed by their party member's attempts to heal them?
Not really PVP, but functionally they are similar, it's players harming players. A bunch of ways to do have a character, even a low level character, be healed by negative energy and harmed by positive.
If this is my character, the one being harmed, should I stop the other player out of character and explain that their channel or cure will harm me? Or, since I failed to explain it in-character, do I stay silent and take the damage, allowing it to role play normally?
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Work it out between the players. it has to be targeted to hurt undead. A channel burst can either be to heal the living or hurt the dead, so healing party members with a channel won't hurt him.
I'd say suck it up. You work in an industry where you need medical attention on a daily basis. NOT telling the healer you have an allergic reaction to the usual cure is drunk dialing pharasma.
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I've noticed a trend lately at tables I've been playing where people don't take the time to introduce their characters. I'm as guilty as anyone for not taking the time to touch on that, but there's been entirely too many "haha! surprise tengu!" moments mid-scenario lately. If you are playing a character that doesn't fit into typical paradigms, it is your responsibility to inform people before it becomes an issue.
Dhampir? Black-blooded oracle? Necromantic Affinity? Tell your party and make sure they know what to do if you go unconscious. Also, make sure they understand what that entails in case there are in-character issues (infernal healing in a party of paladins, etc.).
Using stupid light tricks (I'm super guilty of this)? Ask about senses, offer castings of darkvision, or temporarily use a different schtick. Last session, I knew what classes people were bringing, I had a guess at races (mostly human) based on my question about senses, but I don't think I offered info on or anyone asked about my light-and-dark themed wayang arcane trickster that I was playing. I suppose that's appropriate given that he's a Norgorberite, but still...
If you've got some weirdness to the character (and most people do!), explain it before it becomes an issue. Take the time to introduce characters while the GM is frantically re-reading the scenario and/or drawing maps. At the very least, you and the other players should be able to act better tactically during combat. Ideally, it also helps inform your roleplaying interactions.
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I've noticed a trend lately at tables I've been playing where people don't take the time to introduce their characters.
eyup.
"I'm a menhir
"whats that
"a menhir is a menhir"
"that.. doesn't really help me..."
*Shrug*
later
"so I ride in on my tiger and thwackthwackthwack... do no damage from DR.
"...you have a tiger?
"Yeah, why's that matter?
"I could have doubled up on greater magic fangs strong jaws and barkskins. Buffing animal companions is kind of my thing..
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I've noticed a trend lately at tables I've been playing where people don't take the time to introduce their characters. I'm as guilty as anyone for not taking the time to touch on that, but there's been entirely too many "haha! surprise tengu!" moments mid-scenario lately. If you are playing a character that doesn't fit into typical paradigms, it is your responsibility to inform people before it becomes an issue.
Dhampir? Black-blooded oracle? Necromantic Affinity? Tell your party and make sure they know what to do if you go unconscious. Also, make sure they understand what that entails in case there are in-character issues (infernal healing in a party of paladins, etc.).
It's true, this is an issue. I really like it when people even include a proper model representation of their character. Really helps.
Aside from introducting your character, and any companions, a brief introduction for your deity, even if you are not a divine caster, has proven useful in the past. Nice way to inform the GM in advance, should one of the NPCs in the setting have strong opinions on a particular deity. I recall a session where the party was supposed to be destroying some evil deity's lair, but much to the GM's surprise, that was the deity my character picked (I was a fighter), so I wasn't really keen on fighting the end boss, since he was a cleric of my faith...I think if the GM had known in advance, they may have allowed a peaceful resolution.
As for the black blood or necromatic affinity, how would you role play this? Or would you just explain it out of character?
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[b]If a player fails to explain that their character is harmed by postitive energy
If you don't tell the other characters then anything that happens is on you. Its unfair to another player to suddenly say "no, you can't channel from there".
Heck, I'd go further than that. If you've brought such a character it is at least partially your responsibility to place yourself in such a way as to NOT interfere in channels.
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As for the black blood or necromatic affinity, how would you role play this? Or would you just explain it out of character?
"there was an incident in the dark archives. Don't use regular healing on me. Don't ask me about the incident I don't remember. If i need healing use this..." takes out bone themed wand "If I fall use this " takes out glowing, bubbling black and purple potion of cause moderate wounds "There is another one located in my top left coat pocket.
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I'd say suck it up. You work in an industry where you need medical attention on a daily basis. NOT telling the healer you have an allergic reaction to the usual cure is drunk dialing pharasma.
Being unaware of allies does not permit players to bypass the ban on PVP in PFS. You can't fireball those enemies if the blast includes the allied invisible ninja, even if the caster of the fireball is totally unaware of their ally being in the blast.
I agree that from a role playing stance, you have it completely correct.
Heck, I'd go further than that. If you've brought such a character it is at least partially your responsibility to place yourself in such a way as to NOT interfere in channels.
Hm. Suppose I channel negative energy, and you've brought a character who is harmed by negative energy. Do you have a responsibility to not stand anywhere I might hurt you?
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[b]If a player fails to explain that their character is harmed by postitive energyIf you don't tell the other characters then anything that happens is on you. Its unfair to another player to suddenly say "no, you can't channel from there".
Heck, I'd go further than that. If you've brought such a character it is at least partially your responsibility to place yourself in such a way as to NOT interfere in channels.
Unfair, yeah, probably. But the PVP policy is not about fairness, it is an absolute rule for PFS. It isn't "no PVP unless they deserve it..." as much as many of us would be willing to amend it as such.
If my idiot ally charges the center of the swarm, despite being unable to damage it, I'm now unable to use my cone or burst if it covers my ally. Sure the player could give permission, but it's their choice, not mine.
Or if a party member specializes in social skills and peaceful resolutions, is the player just likes combat unable to start a fight because it's unfair to the skillset of the social character? No, they are totally able to sabotage a peaceful character's intentions and turn almost every encounter into combat. They just can't attack the other players.
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Being unaware of allies does not permit players to bypass the ban on PVP in PFS. You can't fireball those enemies if the blast includes the allied invisible ninja, even if the caster of the fireball is totally unaware of their ally being in the blast.
you definitely can... with the ninja's permission. If the ninja's player says "wow.. yeah. Bad communication kills, i totally dropped the ball on that one , fire away. Come on evasion..." it definitely goes through
Without it you're in an enormous gray area. It's not PVP combat , and dropping the ball without hitting the ninja is a gray area as it would require some serious metagaming, and you can't just have a no fireball policy every time schrodinger's ninja enters the battlefield.
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you definitely can... with the ninja's permission. If the ninja's player says "wow.. yeah. Bad communication kills, i totally dropped the ball on that one , fire away. Come on evasion..." it definitely goes through
Without it you're in an enormous gray area. It's not PVP combat , and dropping the ball without hitting the ninja is a gray area as it would require some serious metagaming, and you can't just have a no fireball policy every time schrodinger's ninja enters the battlefield.
Yeah, agree that if the player agrees, then sure. If they disagree, then no. Maybe it's a regional thing, but our GMs don't allow PVP which includes any action that harms other players. Yeah, the disagreeing invisible ninja would prevent me from casting fireball, assuming I couldn't metagame a position for the blast to not include the player I couldn't see.
But the ban on PVP is a metagaming concept anyway, so I'm not sure if metagaming is really an issue here. Our GMs certainly don't care if you metagame to adhere to the PFS ban on PVP.
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Murdock, is this an issue you're *actually* having where you play?
Or is this just another hypothetical?
Regarding the negative energy healing, no, haven't tried it yet, so Hypothetical is correct.
Mostly, I'm looking at character options are trying to find a good build. A lot of options I like, do happen to include some variant of being harmed by positive energy. And it isn't a short list, there are many ways to do this.
And in case you are wondering, I tend to focus on defensive or support builds (offense bores me). Immunity to negative energy is a very strong character defensive option, so that is the appeal. No special attachment to playing evil. Actually played a paladin recently, which was fun, but a very unsuccessful character - roleplayed Paladin of Sarenae perfectly, even completemented by the GM, but also 3/3 combats resolved with character unconscious (First in the fight, last to leave...).
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If you're the one worried about party members harming you, why not just bring it up with them at the table?
Agree, that is reasonable. The question above, is more regarding what happens if I forget to explain it at the start of the sessions. Obvsiously something that matters this much will be something I try to explain, but if I arrive late or if I just forget, how does it get resolve as per the PVP? Or is it just something that I plede with with GM about, since I forgot?
I'm also rather unclear how one would role play the negative energy healing. Not how they'd explain it, but how it would be role played. Doesn't really seem like something that would come up in normal play, unless I got damaged (which as a defense minded support character, I've had many sessions where I just don't take damage at all). Also seems like something most characters would be sensitive about, rather than wanting to tell everyone. Sort of a blemish for a living adventurer.
I would think that a matter of life and death would take precedence over a little awkwardness, in character.
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I would think that a matter of life and death would take precedence over a little awkwardness, in character.
Sounds reasonable in an objective manner, but emotionally it would be difficult. The character would likely be insecure regarding the subject, since there are lots of ways to interpret a creature healed by evil energy, most of which are filled with prejudice within the Pathfinder setting. And insecurities are often irrational, too, when viewed without emotional attachment.
Not really trying to argue here, I just tend to get really into the head of my character, when I role play them. As I see it, a character healed by negative energy would either be very prideful of it, or very insecure about it. It's too unusual for them to not have a strong opinion on, even if it isn't that rare in the overall character creation options. Maybe a Dhamphir would be different, since their entire race is like that, but I'm not talking about Dhamphirs (mostly because I lack that boon...).
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But the ban on PVP is a metagaming concept anywayNo it most definitely is in game as well as out of game. Its part of that in character explore report cooperate. Not killing your party members is pretty much the bargain basement baseline for cooperation.
The ban on PVP is most certainly a metagaming concept. The fact that pathfinders focus on cooperation is a roleplaying concept, yes. The two unrelated, in my mind, even if they remain functionally similar and certainly overlap mechanically.
You are correct, not informing the healer of your negative reaction to postive energy would be bad from a cooperation stance, and would be reasonable in-character to accidentally harm the character they intended to heal.
But from a PVP stance, one player's character is harming another player's character. That's where my question arises, not in the RP aspect, but in the out of character ban on players harming players.
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Also seems like something most characters would be sensitive about, rather than wanting to tell everyone. Sort of a blemish for a living adventurer.
if you're making the role playing choice to hide the fact that you've been touched by the forces of corruption in a bad way then live (or die) with the results of your characters actions. Relying on the DM to enforce a no PVP rule so that you can have your role play and being shielded from the consequences of your role playing is bad form regardless of the rules and may not in fact work.
NO PLAYER-VERSUS-PLAYER COMBAT
In keeping with the “cooperate” theme of the Pathfinder
Society, player-versus-player conflict should be kept
to a minimum. While circumstances may arise where
friendly fire occurs a player must always receive the
other player’s consent before performing such actions[i].
[i]Deliberate death of a character at the hands of another
character should never occur. This rule does not apply
in situations where a character is not acting of his own
initiative, such as being mind-controlled by an NPC and
forced to attack a fellow Pathfinder.
The bold portions would indicate that it's okay to accidentally cure light wounds you over the line: the other player isn't trying to kill you they're trying to save you so there's no player vs player combat or conflict. It's a case of understandable friendly fire. It's not deliberate,
The italic portions would support the DM stepping in and saying no. You need consent and it should never kill you.
Don't expect it ruled one way or the other.
Put up a table tent. Baron von Darkmire: "HARMED BY POSITIVE ENERGY". Use index cards and hand out free potions of cause light wounds to every party member with a note "use this potion should the baron falls. " (My foxform kitsune hands out an index card with an entire picinic basket full of alchemical items and handy scrolls for those with opposable thumbs to use as needed)
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I'm also rather unclear how one would role play the negative energy healing
If you're looking for roleplaying advice, that we can help with! I even have a suggestion based off of a real world concept:
Try using the term "posinormativity". Describe it disdainfully as "the assumption that everyone is healed by positive energy". Tell people that it's an ultimately harmful attitude to hold, since it can socially lead to "the fear of people who aren't healed by positive energy" (aka "negaphobia").
But that's just coming from a social justice perspective. I'm sure others will have suggestions, too. BigNorseWolf had a simplistic and humorous idea involving the Dark Archive that would work just as well.
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Funny incident at the park
We're driving to pick something up from one job site then heading to another. We see a lady walking around with a leash and no dog.
half a mile away we find a rotwiler dog with no leash. I tell my friend to stop the car. Get out
*whistle* Wana go for a ride? *pats front seat* Dog hops in car.
Turns out my co worker is deathly afraid of dogs and had NO idea that telling a dog to jump into a car had ANY chance of working, so he's rather unexpectedly looking face to face with a leaping rottweiler and slams the gas. The dog falls/jumps out of the car, I almost get my foot run over, and we're both left in the gravel giving him pretty identical "what the #)(*$(#$" looks.
Not telling the people you work with you have issues can make things interesting at the wrong time.
(took about 10 minutes to catch him. The dog had no interest in my cheese sandwhich. Finally i sat on my butt, in the mudd, the dog came over. I scratched his rear end and then took his collar. Which the dog wasn't entirely okay with. My friend wouldn't get out of the car. Forunately someone else came by, and we used the clip to the leaf blower as an impromptu leash and walked him back to the owner)
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The issue is multi-facetted, which seems to be confusing people:
1: Role playing suggestions are desired and entirely welcome regarding how to RP a character that is healed by negative, or harmed by postive, or both (not always both). The Wayang racial ability, in particular, looks very challenging to role play.
2: Obviously, I will attempt to inform the party, at least out of character, at the start of each session. But at the same time, I may forget, and when that happens, I am curious how the PVP rules interact, which is the question in the OP. I'm not suggesting building a character for the purpose of being disruptive to healers, or anything like that (I'd actually, probably be the healer in most game sessions).
Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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2: Obviously, I will attempt to inform the party, at least out of character, at the start of each session. But at the same time, I may forget, and when that happens, I am curious how the PVP rules interact, which is the question in the OP. I'm not suggesting building a character for the purpose of being disruptive to healers, or anything like that (I'd actually, probably be the healer in most game sessions).
If this is my character, the one being harmed, should I stop the other player out of character and explain that their channel or cure will harm me? Or, since I failed to explain it in-character, do I stay silent and take the damage, allowing it to role play normally?
If your character is going to be harmed, you should say something out of character. How it resolves from there will depend on the table and GM and circumstances.
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But the PVP policy is not about fairness, it is an absolute rule for PFS.
In practice, at least locally, it is not all that exact a rule.
Locally, we definitely allow PVP with player permission. Since our gamers are reasonable people such permission is only sought when reasonable and is therefore almost always granted. In particular, when one player is acting like an idiot (either for role playing reasons or because the person is just having a bad day) they'll very, very often agree to PVP. Eg, the invisible ninja will allow himself to be fireballed.
Areas where character and player knowledge are very different are pretty grey areas in the rules.
And the "don't be a jerk" rules comes into play as well. To some extent, the Dhampir putting himself in the middle of the group is being a jerk and is at least partly responsible for the consequences.
None of this is cut and dried or black and white. In practice, reasonable people come to reasonable solutions.
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If you "know" that the PVP rule is absolute and you are absolutely convinced this is PVP then why are you asking anyone questions?
Are you being intentionally antagonistic? The other posters seem to understand the question, while you seem to be focused on creating a dispute. Not just this quote, but most of them seem to be directed with hostile force at minor aspects of the topic. I could be misinterpreting things, so I'm asking.
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If you "know" that the PVP rule is absolute and you are absolutely convinced this is PVP then why are you asking anyone questions?Are you being intentionally antagonistic? The other posters seem to understand the question
You keep equating a lack of agreement with a lack of understanding, which is more than a little insulting. hence the annoyance. Especially when myself and the other posters are telling you the exact same thing.
We are all telling you this is going to be a gray area.
Your response is "no no no you don't understand this is pvp it's black and white"
No. it isn't. You are going to be subject to DM's call in these circumstances. This is not me not understanding you, this is not me trying to start a fight, or being antagonistic. EVERYONE is telling you that.
Listen.
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If you "know" that the PVP rule is absolute and you are absolutely convinced this is PVP then why are you asking anyone questions?Are you being intentionally antagonistic? The other posters seem to understand the questionYou keep equating a lack of agreement with a lack of understanding, which is more than a little insulting. hence the annoyance. Especially when myself and the other posters are telling you the exact same thing.
We are all telling you this is going to be a gray area.
Your response is "no no no you don't understand this is pvp it's black and white"No. it isn't. You are going to be subject to DM's call in these circumstances. This is not me not understanding you, this is not me trying to start a fight, or being antagonistic. EVERYONE is telling you that.
Listen.
Wish you'd just say, "It'll be a grey area, ask your GM," at the start. Would have answered my question entirely.
Most of the responses you gave did not leave that impression. They seem more geared towards provoking an off topic response, than to addressing the question. Anyway, thought I'd mention how you appear to me, so you understand.
From your response, I gather that you felt insulted by the orignal question and the following responses, which is why you've been purposely hostile. I'm sorry if I offended you, that was not my intention.
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Venture-Agent, Nebraska—Omaha
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Murdock, BigNorseWolf led with "Work it out between the players" in his very first post. You are the one who missed that, and responded instead to his snarky aside.
I can understand how BNW would be frustrated by the misunderstanding.
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Work it out between the players. it has to be targeted to hurt undead. A channel burst can either be to heal the living or hurt the dead, so healing party members with a channel won't hurt him.
I'd say suck it up. You work in an industry where you need medical attention on a daily basis. NOT telling the healer you have an allergic reaction to the usual cure is drunk dialing pharasma.
Drunk Dialing Pharasma: The Life & Times of Jadain Losritter
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Being unaware of allies does not permit players to bypass the ban on PVP in PFS. You can't fireball those enemies if the blast includes the allied invisible ninja, even if the caster of the fireball is totally unaware of their ally being in the blast.you definitely can... with the ninja's permission. If the ninja's player says "wow.. yeah. Bad communication kills, i totally dropped the ball on that one , fire away. Come on evasion..." it definitely goes through
Without it you're in an enormous gray area. It's not PVP combat , and dropping the ball without hitting the ninja is a gray area as it would require some serious metagaming, and you can't just have a no fireball policy every time schrodinger's ninja enters the battlefield.
This is my new favorite saying.
"Drunk dialing Pharasma" was also pretty great.
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In a lot of cases using a heal check to remove a parasite or other disease effect deals damage to players. I think this would also count at PVP if you want to get nitty gritty about it.
"Maggots are eating me alive! Cut them out of me!"
"Sorry man, rules are rules." *Crosses arms*
Venture-Captain, Michigan—Mt. Pleasant
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Something like negative energy affinity is something that would be very useful to list on a table tent. More and more I prefer to have table tents for all my characters and appreciate others having them for their characters as well. I often forget character names, so having a tent in front of you saying what your character's name is and maybe a picture or a bit about them helps me keep in character when I talk with the other characters.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I don't think the PVP policy is really that difficult to use.
Don't hurt other people's PCs without their OOC consent. This includes AoE spells and "the wrong cure".
This means that AoE users have to defer to players whose PCs would be in the line of fire. If they can't come to an agreement, no AoE.
Please try to play in such a way that the AoE guy gets to have some fun too. Don't always rush forward because that's your individual best tactic. Practice some give and take. How about trying instead to position yourself so enemies have a hard time escaping the fireball-shaped spot on the battlefield?
As a PC in the line of friendly fire who might give permission to friendly fire away: inform yourself just how much the AoE would hurt you before giving permission. Remember that PC-optimized fireballs tend to have scary high damage and DCs so don't assume you'll survive because you can survive an NPC three levels higher. Avoid these rude surprises.
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From the real world: We had one of the early dhampir boons (from the Beginner's Box Bash), and so no one knew much about them. The player in question played it as you suggest, not telling anyone about his "allergy" to positive energy. He also sat their silently as his unconscious PC died due to a channel. The cleric *could* have excluded the dhampir (as in, he had enough Cha bonus to have done so), but he didn't know to, because the dhampir player hadn't told him. He didn't have enough prestige for a raise, and lost the character permanently. He took it as part of the character's short and tragic arc.
That's roleplaying. Not telling people about it, but then springing the PvP rule on them mid-game as a shield to save your PC, puts you at the mercy of the GM.
Don't hurt other people's PCs without their OOC consent. This includes AoE spells and "the wrong cure".
This means that AoE users have to defer to players whose PCs would be in the line of fire. If they can't come to an agreement, no AoE.
And this is why having more than one option is important - for both characters.
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I don't think the PVP policy is really that difficult to use.
under normal circumstances, no. But pathfinders are known for nothing if not unusual corner cases.
How do you resolve Schrodinger's ninja ?
-the wizard can't throw a fireball anywhere.
-the wizard can't throw a fireball there.. there.. or there.. no, not there either, okay, there's fine. (metagaming them having the location of schrodingers ninja): maybe all pathfinders know to call out "attack pattern delta 7" before going invisible.
-Lament the one ability the rogue has that the ninja doesn't and fire away!
Don't hurt other people's PCs without their OOC consent. This includes AoE spells and "the wrong cure".
Which can seem a little metagamey if someone was hiding their affliction.
There's two parts to the no pvp rule. The player doesn't even try it and the dm makes sure it doesn't happen. If you don't tell the players then obviously they're not trying to break the rule by.. you know. Healing someone. If the other players aren't trying to kill you, and the other characters aren't trying to kill you, the dm might call that not pvp.
