I've done some searching and haven't found a solution to the question yet. But is there any way to get an Unchained Monk to be able to flurry a falchion? The biggest thing I'm finding is the alignment reqirement.
I know it can be done with a greatsword (Deity - smiad LG, weapon - greatsword). How big is the difference between the falchion and greatsword in this case when it comes to wanting to increase crits?
Also this is within the realms of PFS rules.
Not much luck with Falchion for the alignment.
But if just wanting to crit more, katana could work with Shizuru or with other high-threat range weapons.
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you can fake flurry a variety of ways.
Medium gets extra attacks on full attack, Magus can get an extra attack in a full attack, prowler at worlds end bloodrager(not yet PFS legal) can get an extra attack. 2 levels in ninja gives extra attack as a swift action.
So a lv8 character, ninja 2 medium 6 can get off 3 full BAB attacks as a full attack and a swift.
A lv 3 character, magus 1 ninja 2 can get off 3 full BAB-2 attacks as a full and a swift.
Take your level(s) of monk, then change alignment and get falchion diety to flurry with it.
Stalker vigilante can move+swift for an attack, standard and attack, and make sure enemy provokes for an attack, for 3 attacks per round at full BAB.
Not much luck with Falchion for the alignment.
But if just wanting to crit more, katana could work with Shizuru or with other high-threat range weapons.
There's an infernal duke (Uruskreil) with the Falchion as a chosen weapon. I know PFS doesn't let you be evil, but you can be an LN worshiper of a LE deity, right?
Sort of odd for a monk to be a worshiper of Uruskreil since his portfolio is revelation (fine), mercilessness (I guess...), and armor.
The infernal dukes and their material from Inner Sea Gods isn't allowed in PFS for play.
And I might as well mention that a core monk with the sohei archetype can flurry with a different high crit weapon- the nodachi (about the same as a falchion; 1d10 vs 2d4; it is basically really big katana).
Sohei is worth mentioning since it is the monk archetype that gets weapon training, which can make it competitive with the unchained monk.
It also has the ability to flurry in light armor, which is nice for surviving early levels without turtling up on a dex/wis build. Nope, it is fine with just a str focus.
And I might as well mention that a core monk with the sohei archetype can flurry with a different high crit weapon- the nodachi (about the same as a falchion; 1d10 vs 2d4; it is basically really big katana).
Sohei is worth mentioning since it is the monk archetype that gets weapon training, which can make it competitive with the unchained monk.
It also has the ability to flurry in light armor, which is nice for surviving early levels without turtling up on a dex/wis build. Nope, it is fine with just a str focus.
My only issue with regular monk is it's not as good as the unchained version from what I've read. The d8 hit die is also deterring compared to the d10 of unchained.
The katana is an interesting choice though.
I know you can get falchion with a regular monk via the martial arts archetype.
Would it work to go
Lv1 Crusader cleric
Lv2 Regular monk - martial artist
Lv3 Unchained monk
can't multiclass with monk and Umonk.
can't multiclass with monk and Umonk.
Thanks!
I suppose you could go crusader cleric level 1. Unchained Monk level 2 and retrain at level 2 one of your level 1 feats for 5pp to take Crusader flurry a level early and start kicking butt then already.
Is having it a level earlier wise or not so much?
Another option would be to go Sacred Fist with Crusader's Flurry. Sacred Fist is, ironically, better with a weapon, and the ability to cast buffing, healing, and even some debuffing with swift actions makes them really potent. A Sacred Fist of Gorum can flurry a greatsword with the Destruction Blessing for really wacky damage.
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I suppose you could go crusader cleric level 1. Unchained Monk level 2 and retrain at level 2 one of your level 1 feats for 5pp to take Crusader flurry a level early and start kicking butt then already.
Is having it a level earlier wise or not so much?
The problem is the same: Crusader's Flurry can only be done with your deity's favored weapon. And all the (PFS legal) deities who love the falchion are chaotic.
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I know it can be done with a greatsword (Deity - smiad LG, weapon - greatsword). How big is the difference between the falchion and greatsword in this case when it comes to wanting to increase crits.
It's significant, especially once you get Improved Critical. How significant depends on how much static damage (strength bonus, enhancement bonus, etc.) you do. Usually by the time you get Improved those are high enough that the falchion will do more average damage.
There are several one-handed weapons with an 18-20 crit range (that you CAN use in two hands for increased damage) which are the favored weapon of at least one lawful or neutral deity. Scimitar (1d6), Katana (1d8), and Urumi (1d8) come to mind. The falchion is mathematically a TINY bit better than the 1d8 weapons when it comes to damage, but it's so small (barely half a point of damage on average) I wouldn't worry about it.
The problem is the same: Crusader's Flurry can only be done with your deity's favored weapon. And all the (PFS legal) deities who love the falchion are chaotic.I suppose you could go crusader cleric level 1. Unchained Monk level 2 and retrain at level 2 one of your level 1 feats for 5pp to take Crusader flurry a level early and start kicking butt then already.
Is having it a level earlier wise or not so much?
The Sacred Fist isn't required to be Lawful, just one step within the preferred deity's alignment, so if the OP isn't married to the idea of being a Lawful character it's definitely an option.
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The Sacred Fist isn't required to be Lawful, just one step within the preferred deity's alignment, so if the OP isn't married to the idea of being a Lawful character it's definitely an option.The problem is the same: Crusader's Flurry can only be done with your deity's favored weapon. And all the (PFS legal) deities who love the falchion are chaotic.I suppose you could go crusader cleric level 1. Unchained Monk level 2 and retrain at level 2 one of your level 1 feats for 5pp to take Crusader flurry a level early and start kicking butt then already.
Is having it a level earlier wise or not so much?
The quote from Iamrubocop was about the (Crusader) archetype of the Cleric, not a warpriest.
The Sacred Fist isn't required to be Lawful, just one step within the preferred deity's alignment, so if the OP isn't married to the idea of being a Lawful character it's definitely an option.The problem is the same: Crusader's Flurry can only be done with your deity's favored weapon. And all the (PFS legal) deities who love the falchion are chaotic.I suppose you could go crusader cleric level 1. Unchained Monk level 2 and retrain at level 2 one of your level 1 feats for 5pp to take Crusader flurry a level early and start kicking butt then already.
Is having it a level earlier wise or not so much?
But the UnMonk is still required to be Lawful. So a Warpriest of a CG deity can be NG, but not lawful anything. Your monk alignment shift moves only work if you're not interested in gaining any more monk levels after you switch, which the OP is not (presumably.)
Is Martial Artist Monk allowed?
I know it can be done with a greatsword (Deity - smiad LG, weapon - greatsword). How big is the difference between the falchion and greatsword in this case when it comes to wanting to increase crits.It's significant, especially once you get Improved Critical. How significant depends on how much static damage (strength bonus, enhancement bonus, etc.) you do. Usually by the time you get Improved those are high enough that the falchion will do more average damage.
There are several one-handed weapons with an 18-20 crit range (that you CAN use in two hands for increased damage) which are the favored weapon of at least one lawful or neutral deity. Scimitar (1d6), Katana (1d8), and Urumi (1d8) come to mind. The falchion is mathematically a TINY bit better than the 1d8 weapons when it comes to damage, but it's so small (barely half a point of damage on average) I wouldn't worry about it.
Do you have any idea what it looks like to compare the d8 weapons you mentioned vs the katana or greatsword when working at crit build?
You know... there's always going the other way with criticals and worshipping Magdh to flurry a scythe. Sure, "frequent lesser crits are statistically better because etc, etc"... but flurrying a x4 weapon is pretty awesome fun.
I'd also pay attention to the potential Domain powers of the deities involved; Shizuru's Gentle Rest ability is very good, and it works just fine with only one level of Cleric. On a Monk, it's very easy to set-up Domain Strike with Cleric Powers...
Isn't there a monk special weapon property?
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Do you have any idea what it looks like to compare the d8 weapons you mentioned vs the katana or greatsword when working at crit build?
Well, the katana is a d8 weapon...
There's a lot of factors that go into the math which make it impossible to say "X is always the better weapon." Total attack bonus determines how often you confirm, strength affects damage, etc. Are you looking solely at damage or at status effects? Do we consider DR? So you have to set your assumptions somewhere.
Greatsword has a damage factor of 1.05
Katana has a damage factor of 1.1
Greatsword damage = 1.05 (2d6 + static) = average of 7.35 + (1.05 x static)
Katana damage = 1.1 (1d8 + static) = average of 4.95 + (1.1 x static)
Comparing the two, the two weapons are equal when
2.4 + (1.05static) = 1.1static
2.4 = 0.05static
Static = 48
So at what point does the Katana become the better weapon solely from a "average damage per hit" viewpoint? When your static damage (strength, enhancement, power attack, weapon focus, etc.) exceeds 48 points on a non-crit. That's ridiculously high.
But a slight change in how we set our assumptions can make the high-crit weapon better. What if we confirm 2/3 of our threats (we picked up critical focus)? The static number drops to 36. What if we confirm all our crits? 24. What if we are fighting something with DR 10/-? The number drops even further since DR only applies once per crit.
Or we can go the other way. What if we go back to the initial conditions but it takes a 17 just to hit in the first place? Then the greatsword is always the better choice. What if we pick up Vital Strike for those times when we can't get off a full attack? Well, on a Vital Strike the greatsword is better until we get a nearly impossible 96 static modifier.
However there's one thing I haven't even mentioned yet. The difference is tiny. Let's assume you have a very reasonable static modifier of +10 (14 str, Power Attack at +4 BAB, and a +1 weapon). If we go back to the original assumptions the average damage per hit is less than two extra points for the greatsword (17.85 vs. 15.95).
So I went through all that math to prove that the greatsword usually does a very small amount of damage more. However a high-crit range weapon is much more exciting!
P.S. There is a clear winner in the "crit damage" sweepstakes - the falcata. It's a 1d8 19-20x3 one-handed weapon. Unfortunately it is the favored weapon of no deities.
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Isn't there a monk special weapon property?
There is. Any weapon that has the "monk" special quality can be used as part of a flurry of blows. Unfortunately as far as I know there is no way to add the monk quality to a weapon. There are "ki focus" and "ki intensifying" enchantments but they don't let you flurry with the weapon.
But the UnMonk is still required to be Lawful. So a Warpriest of a CG deity can be NG, but not lawful anything. Your monk alignment shift moves only work if you're not interested in gaining any more monk levels after you switch, which the OP is not (presumably.)The Sacred Fist isn't required to be Lawful, just one step within the preferred deity's alignment, so if the OP isn't married to the idea of being a Lawful character it's definitely an option.The problem is the same: Crusader's Flurry can only be done with your deity's favored weapon. And all the (PFS legal) deities who love the falchion are chaotic.I suppose you could go crusader cleric level 1. Unchained Monk level 2 and retrain at level 2 one of your level 1 feats for 5pp to take Crusader flurry a level early and start kicking butt then already.
Is having it a level earlier wise or not so much?
For some reason I was convinced the original intent was to flurry with the specified weapon, not necessarily to play an Unchained Monk. Not sure where I got that impression.
You could play a martial master...
It isn't really that subpar to Unchained Monk. (BAB is the same when flurrying). Plus the difference between a d10 and d8 isn't that big, and at least you'll have some high saves.
Ascetic Style will let you flurry with an Urumi
1d8 18-20/x2
Although I think that style is currently barred from PFS because by the creators own admission bad wording.
For some reason I was convinced the original intent was to flurry with the specified weapon, not necessarily to play an Unchained Monk. Not sure where I got that impression.
The title I made definitely implies that. And I'm not tied to the uMonk, it was to my knowledge at that time, the way I could see that possibly happening. Though that path seems not likely with the falchion. Some other great ideas have been mentioned though.
I did some digging into sacred fist and flurrying a falchion.
The prereqs for Crusader's Flurry are: Channel energy, flurry, and weapon focus in deity's weapon.
The sacred fist get's flurry at level 1, so check. Could take one of the feats at creation to be weapon focus in deity's weapon, falchion presumably here, so another check. But channel energy doesn't come along for a sacred fist (warpriest) until 4th level. Unless I would start cleric/crusader cleric and then move to sacred fist at level 2 and that should meet all the check boxes then if I'm correct.
You know... there's always going the other way with criticals and worshipping Magdh to flurry a scythe. Sure, "frequent lesser crits are statistically better because etc, etc"... but flurrying a x4 weapon is pretty awesome fun.
I'd also pay attention to the potential Domain powers of the deities involved; Shizuru's Gentle Rest ability is very good, and it works just fine with only one level of Cleric. On a Monk, it's very easy to set-up Domain Strike with Cleric Powers...
The high crit modifier and Magdh had definitly crossed my mind. I wrestle between the more often crits for less damage and the far less often but vastly impressive crit. I always picture a scythe as the grim reapers type scythe or the harvesting scythe, but apparently it's constructed differently for war purposes, which does take some of the flavor out of it. I'm all about that salt and pepper! Which is another reason I'm hesitant to go scimitar, as the crit builds I have seen, albeit not many, are mostly based or suggested to be scimitar.
I took a look at Shizuru's Gentle Rest and that looks pretty fantastic. It didnt' cross my mind to pay attention to that, but you also bring up another good point that I failed to touch on. That being if I'm going to cleric 1 level and then monk or something else the rest, how can I make the most use of the rest of the things one level in cleric offers besides just meeting prereqs for a feat (crusader's flurry)? Gentle Rest is a good idea for this.
...So I went through all that math to prove that the greatsword usually does a very small amount of damage more. However a high-crit range weapon is much more exciting!...
So either is a good damage weapon, the Katana would just prove more crit fun! I tend not lean toward the eastern themes (perhaps its my d&d roots) but the close damage, higher crit rate, and neat domain powers are sure making a case for it. Plus the character could be like Rutger Hauer in Blind Fury! (anyone??)
The feedback and conversation has been awesome so far, thanks!
edit - can you use Gentle Rest as part of a flurry?
So here's a start idea on a build...
PFS (20pt buy)
Human
Str: 18
Dex: 14
Con: 12
Int: 10
Wis: 14
Cha: 08
Traits:
Level 1 - Cleric - Crusader
Deity: Shizuru - Repose Domain
Favoured weapon: Katana
Favoured Class Bonus:
HP: 9
BAB: 0
AC: 12
Class features: 2 skill points, Aura, Channel Energy 1d6, Domain (Repose), Osirons, Spontaneous casting, Diminished spellcasting, Bonus feat - weapon focus Katana,
Racial features: +1 skill point, +1 feat,
Feats: WF Katana (bonus from class), level 1:_______ ?, Human:______ ?
Level 2: uMonk
Class features: bonus feat (dodge), flurry of blows, stunning fist, unarmed strike (imp unarmed strike 1d6)
skills: 4+1
HP: 16
AC: 14
BAB: +1
at this point you could either wait till 3rd level for crusader's flurry or spend 5pp (should have 6 if none spent previous) and some money in PFS to retrain a level 1 feat.
I welcome input!
Adopted:Enlightened Warriror will allow you to be a NG or N Monk. This way you can be a cleric of a chaotic good or chaotic Neutral Deity.
Not sure if that solves your problem though.
I wouldn't bother retraining. Just use katana for all single attacks and unarmed flurry for full attacks until level 3 - you can flurry unarmed while holding a katana just fine.
I would maybe do something like Dual Talent Human: 16/18STR, 10DEX, 12CON, 10INT, 16/18WIS, 8CHA
1M. +Dodge / ???
2C. +Weapon Focus
3M. +Combat Reflexes / Crusader's Flurry
4M.
5M. Domain Strike: Gentle Rest
Eventually you can take Medusa's Wrath as a bonus feat and combine it with Domain Strike: Gentle Rest for two free extra attacks per round.
Incidentally, if you're looking to maximize damage with Unchained Monk, a single level of Celestial Urban Bloodrager and some Extra Rage will do a lot more for you than a Cleric dip. Flurry with unusual weapons is very cool, but Bloodrage with a Furious Monk weapon will do a ton more damage.
And if you're looking for a unique Monk with special powers, I'd consider going Scaled Fist Monk with a level of Dual-Cursed Oracle. I've got a build I've been looking at for that - you get the Misfortune power and the spell Ill Omen (that can be worked up to CL5 easily), and you still get Channel Energy through Life Mystery if you want it.
Adopted:Enlightened Warrior will allow you to be a NG or N Monk. This way you can be a cleric of a chaotic good or chaotic Neutral Deity.I'm not certain it's worth burning an aasimar boon just for a trait, but opinions may vary. ^_^
Actually since the trait is from Blood of Angels it's a legal choice for adopted for anyone. You only need a race boon to access material if additional resources specifically states it...
Contributor
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Actually since the trait is from Blood of Angels it's a legal choice for adopted from anyone. You only need a race boon to access material if additional resources specifically states it...Adopted:Enlightened Warrior will allow you to be a NG or N Monk. This way you can be a cleric of a chaotic good or chaotic Neutral Deity.I'm not certain it's worth burning an aasimar boon just for a trait, but opinions may vary. ^_^
Been a while since I've been reminded of this one. Good times.
I don't think the cleric - crusader can take weapon focus at level 1, it doesn't meet the 1 Bab requirement.
And, if you're using a weapon, a normal monk is probably better than unchained. The unchained can't spend ki for an additional attack with a weapon.
You are correct that it can't take weapon focus unless it previously had a BAB from a different class. So just go monk first, plus it'll get you more HP going monk first.
If he's just going 1 level into it for the flurry then Umonk is the better dip. If planning to be mostly monk, sohei is a really good option. Though the ki being an IUS isn't that bad since the style strikes need to be IUS, so just use your style strikes with you KI attack and flurry with your weapon.
Or he could go scaled fist Umonk 1, life Oracle 1, ninja 2 and have a charisma based ki pool that works with weapons and flurry with 1.5 str at full bab.
In any case, for the falchion I still think their best option is monk first and then change alignment.
Been a while since I've been reminded of this one. Good times.Actually since the trait is from Blood of Angels it's a legal choice for adopted from anyone. You only need a race boon to access material if additional resources specifically states it...Adopted:Enlightened Warrior will allow you to be a NG or N Monk. This way you can be a cleric of a chaotic good or chaotic Neutral Deity.I'm not certain it's worth burning an aasimar boon just for a trait, but opinions may vary. ^_^
However note that unless you really want a given domain power I don't think 2d4 vs. 1d8 (Falchion vs. Katana) is worth spending a trait on...
soo much good stuff here and lots to think about, thanks all!