I'm looking at potentially running Pathfinder again sometime next year and wanted to look at the basics before combing through all the splat books. I'd like to see what the best Fighter 16 would look like with the following limitations:
* Starting array of 8, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10
* 20 point buy, no buy downs, maximum purchased score of 16
* Magic Item budget of 267,750 gp
* Reasonable miscellaneous magic item purchases.
* Reasonable buffs assumed.
* CRB only.
Here's my attempt. It seems extremely weak so I figured you guys would be able to get a much better fighter
STR 16+2 (10)
DEX 12 (2)
CON 14 (5)
INT 13 (3)
WIS 10 (0)
CHA 8 (0)
+4 Strength at level 16.
Feats
Human) Power Attack
Level 1) Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Fighter 1) Combat Casting
Fighter 2) Improved Trip
Level 3) Combat Reflexes
Fighter 4) Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Level 5) Dodge
Fighter 6) Greater Trip
Level 7) Disruptive
Fighter 8) Greater Weapon Focus (greatsword)
Level 9) Improved Critical
Fighter 10) Critical Focus
Level 11) Bleeding Critical
Fighter 12) Penetrating Strike
Level 13) Greater Weapon Specialization (greatsword)
Fighter 14) Staggering Critical
Level 15) Critical Mastery
Fighter 16) Spellbreaker
Class Features
Bravery +4
Weapon Training: Heavy Blades 3, Bows 2, Hammers 1
Armor Training 4
Magic Items
Full budget of 267,750 gp
Full Plate +5 26,650 gp
Ring of Protection +3 18,000 gp
Amulet of Natural Armor +3 18,000 gp
Dusty Rose Ioun Stone 5,000 gp
Ring of Force Shield 8,500 gp
Great sword +5 50,350 gp
Belt of DEX and STR +6 90,000 gp
Boots of Speed 12,000 gp
Cloak of Resistance +5 25,000 gp
Bag of Holding IV 10,000 gp
Combat Scores
AC 39; Touch AC 25; Flat footed AC 34
Greatsword: +31/+31/+26/+21/+16; 2d6+40/17-20
Attack
+16 BAB
+9 strength + belt
+5 weapon
+3 weapon training
-5 power attack
+1 boots of speed
+2 heroism*
Damage:
+4 Weapon Spec
+13 strength + belt
+15 power attack
+5 weapon
+3 weapon training
AC
24 Full plate +5
+4 Dexterity + belt
+3 Ring of protection
+3 Amulet of natural armor
+2 Ring of force shield
+1 Ioun stone
+1 Boots of Speed
+1 Dodge
*Indicates a buff
Combat Casting? Is it some kind of misspell - like, instead of Combat Reflexes?
Optimal for what task? Optimizing is, pretty much by definition, specializing.
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Combat Casting? Is it some kind of misspell - like, instead of Combat Reflexes?
Combat Casting?
It's meant to be Combat Expertise.
Optimal for what task?
Combat.
Consider the Step Up line, in addition or instead.
Good point.
crb only fighter is horable
going with CRB only, Fighter is a terrible lifestyle choice
Understood. However I'm looking for a baseline. What's the best 16th level Fighter that can be made with the point buy and gp value above?
As evidenced by the complaints that CRB Fighters are awful, there has been a significant amount of power creep since the game's original release. Last campaign I GM'd the power level of the PCs made combat unimportant. I'm looking at carefully introducing additional supplements, only in so much as they're needed to expand the number of flavourful choices and to try to rebalance the classes so they're comparable with a baseline that I can actually challenge them at.
I'm even considering introducing Mythic to a limited degree (skeptical at this stage, but nothing is off the table).
But first I need a baseline. So with these restrictions what is the optimal fighter combat machine that can be made?
But first I need a baseline. So with these restrictions what is the optimal fighter combat machine that can be made?
This is not a fair question to ask. If you find a person that is very tactical with strong team support and synergy you will blast the power curve.
With those factors it is hard to determine baseline strength since the game rarely has the PCs fight in a vacuum.
Just adjust the opponents if your players stomp them.
Just adjust the opponents if your players stomp them.
Yup. Tried that. Campaign didn't run that well as a result (with me relieved when it finally ended. I haven't run a Pathfinder game in the 3.5 years since).
Given the limitations I don't think you are going to see much better than what you have posted as a melee fighter. I decided to give it a go with an archer fighter instead. If I was looking at this as a character to actually play I would definitely be looking at more skills especially taking advantage of her decent dex score. I went with half orc for darkvision. Her stat block includes the benefits of heroism and longstrider.
** spoiler omitted **...
andreww, I agree with you overall -- given the restrictions in place (CRB only Fighter) -- my mind went to a ranged build that's very similar to your's (right after it went to "welp, you're screwed").
That being said, a couple of the items you included in your build are from 'non-CRB,' sources. Specifically:
- Seeking weapon special ability - UE
- Traits - UC
- Circlet of Persuasion - UE
OP: A CRB Fighter is going to be a relatively weak character. Using with all of the items you can dig out of hard/softcovers from Paizo really only brings Fighter to an "acceptable" level (even if I have a soft spot for Fighters). The Fighter you built would probably have trouble at 16th level, due to lack of flight and fairly low saves. If you're set on using a CRB Fighter, I'd try to make a ranged attacker (similar to andreww's). If you're willing or able to use non-core sources, I'd suggest looking at master_marshmallow's developing fighter guide, which summarizes many of the newer and more powerful options for Fighters.
Circlet of Persuasion is as well
So 5+ for Scrolls of heroism, and you can still ignore concealment.
Fighters do damage, and outside of core rulebook there's not much damage to be found. But tactics, party support, type of enemies all factor in more to how hard stuff is rather than more books.
Circlet of Persuasion is as well
So 5+ for Scrolls of heroism, and you can still ignore concealment.
D'oh. Serves me right for not looking it up properly in my PDF. You're correct.
Just adjust the opponents if your players stomp them.Yup. Tried that. Campaign didn't run that well as a result (with me relieved when it finally ended. I haven't run a Pathfinder game in the 3.5 years since).
It takes practice to balance things with a party. I usually start the PCs off against light hitting high HP monsters to test them. Then From there you can use their AC, Hp, to hit, damage, and special abilites to calculate fights. For example if the the pcs get a +10 to hit and average 15 dmg, they will 21 ac 50%, so if i want the fight to last 10 rnds the monster gets 75 HP. Then you can adjust from there. Once you are practiced in this you no longer need to do the math you just will know what the stats need to be based on the challenge of the fight.
Optimal for what task?Combat.
Yes... but what KIND of combat? Just general damage from greatsword stuff, and some crit stuff?
You narrow range is why this won't turn out too well beyond that.
Generally, the weapon with the strongest style would be reach. That is because a nice polearm is both a 2 handed weapon (the standard for melee damage, really) and it also has various utility and options just by standing there. A reach user is a circle of pain that is 25' across, and you can get a large percentage of extra damage from AoOs that also makes it hard for enemies to get around you without eating attacks.
So, from that perspective, with crb only, grabbing power attack, combat reflexes, adn lunge would be great.
Lunge is included, since it allows for more positioning options with reach weapons.
Normally, when a reach user attacks first, the enemy ends up in 5' step range, allowing them to easily close in without an AoO or losing their full attack. That means you have to choose between attacking and preserving your ability to get an AoO.
With lunge, you attack first and the enemy ends up far enough away that most medium enemies (which should include all humans and such) have to move 10' to reach you to attack you. That means they eat an AoO, and they can't full attack. And even if it is a big thing with reach, this still allows you to attack without fearing AoOs yourself. Great against giants.
This provides a great defense, largely through deterrence. However, you do not have the problem of defensive characters like poorly made monks- you are still a major threat. You are still a living obstacle 25' wide, and you can full attack anything in a circle 45' wide (which can cover almost the entirety of many rooms; this basically works a similar role to the barbarian's pounce for helping you get more full attacks).
Of course, that is just the distance control. Reach is often more well known for area control, where you use your reach weapon and grab a trip build to punish anyone that tries to get around you.
Overall- grab a bardiche. It is a martial polearm that only has slightly less damage than a greatsword, and still has the same crit range of 19-20/x2. You get WAY more options with this reach weapon (most of which grant you enough extra attacks to more than make up for the slight damage decrease). Just this weapon change and switching out two feats (well, disregarding the possibility of trip..) allows you to turn a bland fighter into a highly tactical unit in a fight. And that is CRB only.
...you may still wish to sore up the fighter's other problems though. Skill points are ok, since you are a human with 3 int. Maybe focus a bit more of wisdom to shore up your poor will save. I note that you do not have iron will...
I agree with andreww on the archery style.
I would, however, take power attack instead of dodge and adjust the stats to be a bit more effective in melee (more like a switch hitter but still with higher Dex than Str).
Also, I would skip the critical feat chain for penetrating strike and greater, to deal with exotic DR (because clustered shots is not in the CRB).
From what you have said John Lynch, it sounds like instead of trying to nail down a lowest common denominator and scaling up from there, you might be better served by sitting your players down as a group and discussing your reservations about combat in the Pathfinder system; perhaps you could push them towards building for flavor over strength.
Otherwise, another option could be to reduce the point buy to 15, and drop the wealth by level to lvl-1.
I decided to give it a go with an archer fighter instead.
Thanks for that. I'll be considering archer fighters separately.
If I was looking at this as a character to actually play I would definitely be looking at more skills especially taking advantage of her decent dex score.
I'll definitely be looking at skills and beefing them up where necessary (wizards in particular are problematic when it comes to skills).
One thing which I would note, if you are level 16 and you cannot fly or do not have effective ranged attacks then you my as well not exist. You have to invest some resources into getting off the ground as so much stuff at this level has at will flight.
you can no longer reliably use your Scrolls of Heroism
I consider making the fighter fly (and heroism) something that is a "reasonable buff that can be assumed". Groups I've played in always make sure they can get the non-casters up into the air (either through flight or airwalk) and if reasonably possible with minimal resource expenditure, also get the fighter with a morale bonus. The fighter may kick in a pearl of power or extend rod to help out the caster, but ultimately it's part of the caster's role to provide "reasonable buffs" to party members. That said, we hold weapon users responsible for getting themselves hasted by level 16. So YMMV as to what a group considers the fighter should be responsible for.
It takes practice to balance things with a party. I usually start the PCs off against light hitting high HP monsters to test them. Then From there you can use their AC, Hp, to hit, damage, and special abilites to calculate fights. For example if the the pcs get a +10 to hit and average 15 dmg, they will 21 ac 50%, so if i want the fight to last 10 rnds the monster gets 75 HP. Then you can adjust from there. Once you are practiced in this you no longer need to do the math you just will know what the stats need to be based on the challenge of the fight.
That's definitely good advice. Part of the problem was also the wide variety in character abilities (last time I struggled with challenging some players and not one-shotting other characters). That's what the "no ability score higher then 16 and no buy downs" is responsible for. Minimising the variety between characters.
you might be better served by sitting your players down as a group and discussing your reservations about combat in the Pathfinder system; perhaps you could push them towards building for flavor over strength.
Tried that. Didn't work too well. Players can make fairly powerful and yet flavourful characters.
From what you have said John Lynch, it sounds like instead of trying to nail down a lowest common denominator and scaling up from there
What I'm aiming for is "What is the optimal version of class X that a player can make with CRB only". It's a good exercise to get a bit more familiarity with the classes and can also help recalibrate my expectations. After playing with "every book is allowed" it's shocking to see how CRB-only characters compare.
Otherwise, another option could be to reduce the point buy to 15, and drop the wealth by level to lvl-1.
As is a common refrain on these forums, 15 point buy just reduces the classes character's will choose from rather than limit the characters in any meaningful way. 20 point buy with the restrictions I've posted is also very close to a 15 point buy anyway (technically 18, although in my experience if someone is going to dump a stat to 8 they'll dump it 7 for the extra 2 points, so I consider it to be a 16 point buy). This point buy should allow monks to be viable while stopping wizards from dumping everything except Int.
Dropping the WBL will also impact some characters more than others. I will, however, be tightly controlling what items can be purchased or found (and even controlling what options can be crafted).
Maybe focus a bit more of wisdom to shore up your poor will save. I note that you do not have iron will...
Good point (to you and everyone else who mentioned Will).
Thanks everyone for your feedback. I've made the changes to the fighter (keeping it as a melee fighter. I'll be working on an archer fighter later on). It's helped quite a bit :)
So I just built a Paladin 16 and instantly see what you guys were saying about fighters being barely acceptable. Although that's the point of the exercise :)
After playing with "every book is allowed" it's shocking to see how CRB-only characters compare.
This is only really true for martial classes. The wizard, i.e. the strongest class, had very little power creep (apart from The-Feat-That-Must-Not-Be-Named). What the books have done is increase the power level of the weaker classes, so using more material is actually beneficial for balancing. There are some strong options in non-CRB books (for instance the Pact Wizard (from Haunted Heroes Handbook) has a ridiculously strong lvl15 ability, and the Pit line of spells is very nice), but what makes full casters so strong is mainly in the CRB (Invisibility, Haste, Teleport, Overland Flight etc.).
Also, most CRB only martials are so boring (in addition to being weak) that disallowing the material that makes them interesting drives more people towards full casters. It's the same as low wealth or low point buy: The end effect is that more people play the stronger classes, so the party's power level will actually be higher instead of lower.
So I just built a Paladin 16 and instantly see what you guys were saying about fighters being barely acceptable. Although that's the point of the exercise :)
Fighters get a lot better with more books, but at a minimum you're going to want to use Pathfinder Unchained (with a bunch of the optional rules), the Weapon Master's Handbook (for Advanced Weapon Training), and the Armor Master's Handbook (for Advanced Armor Training), plus whatever books have the good feats in them.
CRB only means basically don't play a fighter, monk, or rogue.
So I just built a Paladin 16 and instantly see what you guys were saying about fighters being barely acceptable. Although that's the point of the exercise :)Fighters get a lot better with more books, but at a minimum you're going to want to use Pathfinder Unchained (with a bunch of the optional rules), the Weapon Master's Handbook (for Advanced Weapon Training), and the Armor Master's Handbook (for Advanced Armor Training), plus whatever books have the good feats in them.
CRB only means basically don't play a fighter, monk, or rogue.
Fighter can be fine since they can at least fulfill their own role in combat through damage, maneuvers, and some other tricks. It more has a bad will save and lack of skill points as an immediate problem.
I won't disagree on rogue and monk. One needs tons of conditions to do things, and the other is REAAAAALY restricted without nice archetypes to improve it.
What's funny to me is that the three classes that were clearly deficient all had effective fixes in different ways.
The monk was initially fixed by stacking good archetypes, then later fixed again by rewriting the class and both fixes are viable.
The fighter eventually was fixed by added class options that are largely unavailable to archetypes intended to fix the fighter.
The rogue more or less had to be completely rewritten, and still other people can handle the rogue's schtick.
there were several different fixes for rogues, each filling their own niche.
First there was the ninja, which gave you invisibility for a slight attack bonus and easier sneak attack
Then the slayer, a replacement which had great bonuses to a lot of key skills, a strong attack boosting mechanic with few strings attached, good BAB, and free style feats.
Then there was the rewrite, which largely aimed at debuffing so they can get off attacks easier.
Best CRB-only fighter? I'd dip monk for wis to AC since you won't make very effective armour out of them. Living grimore Inquisitor to give you an actual weapon with your CRBs.
...there... is a lot of unpack there.
So first: neither inquisitors, nor the archetype system in general, are part of CRB. Those came in later books.
Secondly...melee classes that can use armor do not dip monk for AC. That is because you cannot get that bonus if you wear armor. Monks rely heavily on their scaling AC bonus to eventually get good AC... otherwise, just to match a chain shirt requires 18 wisdom (which can be hard to get for a long time unless you spend all your point buy on that).
I am not sure why you are going without armor. Fighters are encouraged by their base abilities to grab heavy armor. It would be wizards, sorcerers, and especially druids that might seek the monk dip (druids love it since, while they can wear armor, it can be inconvenient with their wild-shaping; monk lets them add their casting stat to AC)
there were several different fixes for rogues, each filling their own niche.
First there was the ninja, which gave you invisibility for a slight attack bonus and easier sneak attack
Then the slayer, a replacement which had great bonuses to a lot of key skills, a strong attack boosting mechanic with few strings attached, good BAB, and free style feats.
Then there was the rewrite, which largely aimed at debuffing so they can get off attacks easier.
Don't forget investigator that was the rogue that really was the king of skills with a strong combat buff and extracts.
Don't forget investigator that was the rogue that really was the king of skills with a strong combat buff and extracts.
Ah true.
I generally like the rogue solutions, since they fill so many different niches.
Monk solutions...kinda compete with eachother.
Don't forget investigator that was the rogue that really was the king of skills with a strong combat buff and extracts.Ah true.
Don't forget the Stalker Vigilante! So many stuff that a Rogue should have (like hide in plain sight, free tumbling, dragging enemies into the shadows, fighting extra quite, preventing an enemy from calling for help, making the enemy unconsious with a single attack, or making one extra precise strike). And that's without the Teisatsu archetype, which is basically the Ninja replacement!
Don't forget the Stalker Vigilante! So many stuff that a Rogue should have (like hide in plain sight, free tumbling, dragging enemies into the shadows, fighting extra quite, preventing an enemy from calling for help, making the enemy unconsious with a single attack, or making one extra precise strike). And that's without the Teisatsu archetype, which is basically the Ninja replacement!Don't forget investigator that was the rogue that really was the king of skills with a strong combat buff and extracts.Ah true.
Well, lets not get into specialized choices for classes, or we will end up butting heads against a thousand archetypes.
well the stalker is part of the base vigilante, so I think it's a fair inclusion.
It's like saying "draconic bloodline over arcane" it's just an important choice.
Finlanderboy wrote:
It takes practice to balance things with a party. I usually start the PCs off against light hitting high HP monsters to test them. Then From there you can use their AC, Hp, to hit, damage, and special abilites to calculate fights. For example if the the pcs get a +10 to hit and average 15 dmg, they will 21 ac 50%, so if i want the fight to last 10 rnds the monster gets 75 HP. Then you can adjust from there. Once you are practiced in this you no longer need to do the math you just will know what the stats need to be based on the challenge of the fight.
That's definitely good advice. Part of the problem was also the wide variety in character abilities (last time I struggled with challenging some players and not one-shotting other characters). That's what the "no ability score higher then 16 and no buy downs" is responsible for. Minimising the variety between characters.
Rebalancing the party is easy. When you see players start to grow well beyond their allies you can give the weaker players things that make them more equal.
Dming is the illusion of choice. I know what my player will usually do before they do it. But if I have a player getting outdone by all the other player I offer them a choice i know they will accept that boons them with something that bumps them up. I advice against dragging other down as they will hate their character, but benefiting one player will often appreciate there more.
If you're focusing on crits you might be better off with a falchion or even scimitar instead of a greatsword.
I'm not sure if the Ring of Force Shield can be used for an AC bonus while you're using a two-handed weapon.
I'm also not quite sure what the point of knowing the limitations of a CRB Fighter is unless you plan to run CRB only.
I'm not sure if the Ring of Force Shield can be used for an AC bonus while you're using a two-handed weapon.
Any reasoning on why that wouldn't be allowed?
I'm also not quite sure what the point of knowing the limitations of a CRB Fighter is unless you plan to run CRB only.
Because I wanted to see how far behind the fighter was behind the other classes to know how much power creep to let into the game.
damage wise he's not. Fighter has and will continue to be, good at damage. new material barring weapon/armor master, has been the fighter gloves, gloves of dueling, to increase damage and accuracy by 2.
Plus you need to define power creep. Many would say upgrading the rogue is power fixing, not power creep.
The item says, the effect "can be wielded by the wearer as if it were a heavy shield". You usually need a hand free to use a shield, and I'd think that using a shield would involve actively blocking blows. I guess that opinions could vary.
I don't think that allowing Fighters access to all the Paizo books there are will result in them being too powerful to adventure with a CRB Wizard. In parties which skip full casters or have them only as cohort level buffers and healers I've seen less glaring power disparity between PCs.