Claws and Natural Weapons

[Mad_Fawks]

I'm running a summoner and my Eidolon has the claws evolution. I was under the impression when I attacked with my claws, i attacked with both of them (so 2 attack rolls and 2 dmg rolls). My bro says I'm wrong or it'd be OP. I argued that it balances since it is only 1d4 (v the 1d6 most other nat attacks you can get). Who's correct? Reference? Thanks! :)

[Fellfire]

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[Bob Bob Bob]

Unless you have something very specifically saying otherwise, you never get more than one attack unless you full-attack.

Full Attack wrote:

If you get more than one attack per round because your base attack bonus is high enough (see Base Attack Bonus in Classes), because you fight with two weapons or a double weapon, or for some special reason, you must use a full-round action to get your additional attacks.

"Have two natural weapons" is a "special reason".

[Starglim]

Apart from a few special abilities, a creature can take one attack as a standard action, or all the attacks available to it as a full-round action.

The Claws evolution gives the eidolon a pair of claws, thus two claw attacks.

[Lady-J]

if your making a full attack you are correct if you are moving and using a single attack your brother is correct

[vhok]

Lady-J wrote:

if your making a full attack you are correct if you are moving and using a single attack your brother is correct

this

[BigNorseWolf]

vhok wrote:

Lady-J wrote:

if your making a full attack you are correct if you are moving and using a single attack your brother is correct

this

that.

The other thing

[Cayzle]

Note that when making a full attack, your eidolon can even use a manufactured weapon, like a mace, in one hand and make a claw attack with the other. You should have the Weapon Training evolution to do that, though. When attacking with both manufactured weapons and natural weapons, the claw attack is at -5 to hit because it is a secondary attack.

If, later on, you get wing bashes and a bite and tentacles, they can all be used with a FULL attack (not a standard attack).

If you are NOT using a manufactured weapon, they are all made with your full BAB if they are listed as primary attacks (claws and bite). Or they are at -5 if they are secondary (tentacles and wing buffets).

If you are using a manufactured weapon, then even primary natural attacks become secondary and take the -5 penalty.

[Gauss]

I am kinda curious why everyone is discussing full attacks. The OP didn't state this was a full-attack issue. I think the problem is more basic than that.

I believe that his "bro" is disputing that he has two attacks at all.

Mad_Fawks, not only can you have multiple natural attacks, it is possible at level 1 to have three natural attacks with an Eidolon that you can all use at once (with a full-attack action or a charge action if you have pounce).

A quadraped Eidolon has a Bite for free. Then you can buy claws for it's limbs (1pt) and Pounce (1pt) leaving 1 evolution point available for something else.

So at level 1 your Eidolon can have 3 attacks per round (bite/claw/claw) AND be able to move every round (via charge) and still get all of it's attacks every round.

OP? Absolutely! Welcome to Pathfinder.

P.S. Damage dice is not really a balancing factor for the most part. Damage dice quickly gets outstripped by bonuses.
+3/+3/+3attack for 1d6+2/1d4+2/1d4+2 is a lot better than +3attack for 1d6+3
And that is without factoring in Power Attack (-1attack, +2damage...PER ATTACK). While charging (+2attack) you really won't care about that attack penalty.

[Lady-J]

Gauss wrote:

A quadraped Eidolon has a Bite for free. Then you can buy claws for it's limbs (1pt) and Pounce (1pt) leaving 1 evolution point available for something else.

do quadrapedal edolions no longer get pounce for free?

[David knott 242]

Lady-J wrote:

Gauss wrote:

A quadraped Eidolon has a Bite for free. Then you can buy claws for it's limbs (1pt) and Pounce (1pt) leaving 1 evolution point available for something else.

do quadrapedal edolions no longer get pounce for free?

Pounce has never been a free evolution for anyone. The quadruped's advantage with this evolution is being able to take it at all.

[lemeres]

Mad_Fawks wrote:

I'm running a summoner and my Eidolon has the claws evolution. I was under the impression when I attacked with my claws, i attacked with both of them (so 2 attack rolls and 2 dmg rolls). My bro says I'm wrong or it'd be OP. I argued that it balances since it is only 1d4 (v the 1d6 most other nat attacks you can get). Who's correct? Reference? Thanks! :)

Each claw is a separate attack, and you need to full attack to get both.

The damage dice is only a minor balance factor. The bread and butter of a melee character comes from he static bonuses to damage. This would include strength bonuses (major for eidlons, since they can get a ton of strength bonuses; three different sources- size evo, ability score evo, and just a scaling bonus), power attack (important for natural attacks, since they will pretty much all get the full bonus), enhancement bonus, and other buffs (important for eidolons as well, since they have dedicated buffers in the form of summoners).

All of that can add up to WAY, WAY more than the difference between 1d4 and 1d8 (average of 2.5 vs. 4.5).

Of course, if you have a quadruped base, you could just grab pounce and use all of your attacks. That...is its own problem.

Additional- if your brother argues that you don't have two claws at all...well, that is the trade off for natural attacks. You can get many attacks as you can grab things like claws and bites, but you will never get iteratives. Also, enhancing the attacks is a pain in the rear end (you also need to deal with things like DR/silver, which can eat through your 'many small hits' damage). A classic bite/claw/claw is very strong in the early game, but it sputters out by level 11. You would then have to add more natural weapons to keep up (easy for eidlons)