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Fun fact: a 1st level Magus or a 4th level Paladin can put on heavy armor by themselves as a standard action by spending a spell slot. (For the Magus, it costs 35 gp, once)
Less fun fact: a 7th level Fighter can put on heavy armor by themselves over the course of 2 minutes if they invest their Armor Training into it. Without it, they cannot fully put on heavy armor at all.
Of course, you could buy wands, but it's definitely much more investment than, say, a squire. Or having your Paladin friend help you into armor.
To be honest I would love to see more skill points on the fighter. The limit of skill points really dulls out how he can be played. Indiana Jones? Nope you don't have enough skill points for dungeoneering, swimming, climbing, history and all those other cool things that made indian jones cool. And in order to spec into whip you need a s@~& ton of feats.
Want to be a legit general? Nope... you don't get nobility skills, soldier profession and all those other things you'd expect a general to know.
Fighter should be the default I can be almost about anything IRL... but he's not.
To be honest I would love to see more skill points on the fighter. The limit of skill points really dulls out how he can be played. Indiana Jones? Nope you don't have enough skill points for dungeoneering, swimming, climbing, history and all those other cool things that made indian jones cool. And in order to spec into whip you need a s~*$ ton of feats.
Want to be a legit general? Nope... you don't get nobility skills, soldier profession and all those other things you'd expect a general to know.
Fighter should be the default I can be almost about anything IRL... but he's not.
This is a major reason why I LOVE background skills. Everyone wants to have fun stuff like Perform or a neat Profession skill, but they don't want to waste skill points on it. Unchained had so many good ideas in it.
Want to be a legit general? Nope... you don't get nobility skills, soldier profession and all those other things you'd expect a general to know.
It is trivial to get 6 skill points/level at level 1, and not difficult to acquire quite a few additional skill points per level as you advance.
Again, main complaint is current fixes are scattered and have strange behavior. What is it about polearms that lets a fighter trained in them convince others through words, but a fighter trained in spears can't? And why is it that you suddenly greatly increase your proficiency at a pair of skills that you had no training in before?
Why does that complaint come up regarding this, but not bards versatile performance? Or when a player gains a level and dumps all his skill points into a new skill in order to catch it up to his other ones.
I know...I KNOW that people don't mean their arguments to sound like this but so many objections show up that people seem content to handwave away when its a class attached to a spellcaster of some kind but bother people attached to the fighter.
My thoughts is the bard isn't able to reallocate their skills. SO it's not like they are suddenly good at diplomacy by being diplomatic. It's that they've learned to use their performance training to cover that role.
Fighter's are getting it from no where/BAB. My bow skills let me now do X and Y?Skill points are representing training and study in that skill, so all ranks into something meant you really crammed for it.
Personally I don't have a problem with the sudden goodness at a skill nor with the skills being tied to groups, though it is hard to explain why they are suddenly good. I have the issue as someone above that it's skills OR a better will OR ... so it's lv5 or 9 or 10 or... before you finally get your skill points. So for that entire time up to then you have no skills. And when you do choose it you're delaying other fixes to catch up to other classes.
People are expressing issues that you need to spend your class features "feats" to buy basic character features. This isn't solved in your guide.
People are expressing issues that you only have 1 AWT, if you burned a feat, until lv9, thus having the available "fixes" not available enough. This isn't solved by your guide.I was thinking about this part. I know Marshmallow was avoiding the archetypes, but isn't the Weapon Master archetype a partial solution to "no real weapon training until Lvl 9"? You're losing bravery and armor training for a set of specific bonuses for your weapon and the ability to spend your bonus feats on Weapon Training. I think almost all of the AWT options are better than the Feat you were trading in, so this does "help", no?
Also, Marshmallow, would you be willing to edit your guide to link to Internet resources for your options? Being able to click on a reference to the option you are discussing would help your guide become a solid "one stop shop".
I have several links to various sub systems, FAQs, and I link every source that isn't from the core line.
I'll play around with the formatting to see about active links to each option, but some of them come from large lists and can't be linked to.
When writing I use my pdfs song with sites.
Again, main complaint is current fixes are scattered and have strange behavior. What is it about polearms that lets a fighter trained in them convince others through words, but a fighter trained in spears can't? And why is it that you suddenly greatly increase your proficiency at a pair of skills that you had no training in before?
Why does that complaint come up regarding this, but not bards versatile performance? Or when a player gains a level and dumps all his skill points into a new skill in order to catch it up to his other ones.
I know...I KNOW that people don't mean their arguments to sound like this but so many objections show up that people seem content to handwave away when its a class attached to a spellcaster of some kind but bother people attached to the fighter.
My thoughts is the bard isn't able to reallocate their skills. SO it's not like they are suddenly good at diplomacy by being diplomatic. It's that they've learned to use their performance training to cover that role.
Fighter's are getting it from no where/BAB. My bow skills let me now do X and Y?
Skill points are representing training and study in that skill, so all ranks into something meant you really crammed for it.Personally I don't have a problem with the sudden goodness at a skill nor with the skills being tied to groups, though it is hard to explain why they are suddenly good. I have the issue as someone above that it's skills OR a better will OR ... so it's lv5 or 9 or 10 or... before you finally get your skill points. So for that entire time up to then you have no skills. And when you do choose it you're delaying other fixes to catch up to other classes.
With the Villain Codex all classes gain access to the Cunning feat.
The fighter has an easier time accessing this feat multiple times by virtue of having more feats available than any other class.
Sorry, but I have no idea what that feat is.
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There are many different ways to interpret Strider in Pathfinder. No one way is necessarily better or worse than any other, interpretation tends to be a personal matter as much is based on personal opinion.
That being said, as a 6th level fighter...
It took a few days for me to have time, but here are some striders
Male human (Taldan) fighter (lore warden) 6 (Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Pathfinder Society Field Guide)
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 58 (6d10+18)
Fort +7, Ref +4, Will +2 (+1 vs. fear)
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 longsword +11/+6 (1d8+8/19-20) or
. . +1 longsword +11 (1d8+8/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +9/+4 (1d8+4/×3)
Special Attacks weapon training (heavy blades +1)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 15, Con 14, Int 14, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +12; CMD 25
Feats Advanced Weapon Training, Combat Expertise, Dodge, Double Slice, Fast Learner[ARG], Power Attack, Two-weapon Fighting, Weapon Focus (longsword), Weapon Specialization (longsword)
Traits highlander (hills or mountains), seeker
Skills Acrobatics +3, Climb +7, Handle Animal +4, Heal +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +11, Knowledge (religion) +6, Perception +10, Ride +4, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +10 (+12 in hilly or rocky areas), Survival +9, Swim +6; Racial Modifiers highlander (hills or mountains)
Languages Common, Dwarven, Elven
Combat Gear healer's kit; Other Gear +1 elven chain, +1 longsword, +1 longsword, arrows (20), mwk composite longbow (+4 Str), belt of giant strength +2, 369 gp
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Special Abilities
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Advanced Weapon Training You are specially trained to use your weapon skills in new ways.
Prerequisites: Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature.
Benefit: Select one advanced weapon training option, applying it to one fighter weapon group you h
Combat Expertise +/-2 Bonus to AC in exchange for an equal penalty to attack.
Effortless Dual-Wielding (Weapon Training [Blades, Heavy] +1) (Ex) Treat selected weapon group as light for determining dual-wielding penalties.
Power Attack -2/+4 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Weapon Training (Blades, Heavy) +1 (Ex) +1 Attack, Damage, CMB, CMD with Heavy Blades
Male human (Taldan) Slayer 6
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 58 (6d10+18)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 longsword +12/+7 (1d8+6/19-20) and +1 shortsword +12 (1d6+6/19-20)
Studied +1 longsword +14/+9 (1d8+8/19-20) and +1 shortsword +14 (1d6+8/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +9/+4 (1d8+5/×3)
Studied mwk composite longbow +11/+6 (1d8+7/×3)
Special Attacks Studied Target, sneak attack 2d6
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 23
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness, Nature soul, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Friend to Animals, Seeker
Racial Traits Comprehensive Education, Bonus feat
Skills Acrobatics +5, Climb +8, Handle Animal +4, Heal +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (Nobility) +5, Knowledge (nature) +11, Knowledge (religion) +6, Perception +10, Ride +6, Spellcraft 6, Stealth +10, Survival +9 (track +12), Swim +8;
Languages Common, Elven
Combat Gear healer's kit; Other Gear +1 mithral breastplate, +1 longsword, +1 short sword, arrows (20), mwk composite longbow (+5 Str), belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resist +1
Here I match or beat you on skills, but my attacks are slightly more accurate for a little less damage, But that's before my studied target comes in which makes me far more accurate and equal on damage per hit. Also letting my bow be more accurate and more damaging. Plus I have higher saves and was able to spend less on armor to afford cloak of resist. Not to forget I get bonus to skills from studied target and I have 2d6 sneak attack.
Male human (Taldan) ranger 6
CG Medium humanoid (human)
Init +2; Senses Perception +10
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Defense
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AC 20, touch 13, flat-footed 17 (+7 armor, +2 Dex, +1 dodge)
hp 58 (6d10+18)
Fort +8, Ref +8, Will +5
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +1 longsword +12/+7 (1d8+6/19-20) and +1 shortsword +12 (1d6+6/19-20)
Humans +1 longsword +14/+9 (1d8+8/19-20) and +1 shortsword +14 (1d6+8/19-20)
Orcs +1 longsword +16/+11 (1d8+10/19-20) and +1 shortsword +16 (1d6+10/19-20)
Ranged mwk composite longbow +9/+4 (1d8+5/×3)
Humans mwk composite longbow +11/+6 (1d8+7/×3)
Orcs mwk composite longbow +13/+8 (1d8+9/×3)
Special Attacks FE orc +4, FE human +2, Hunter’s bond companions,
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Statistics
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Str 20, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 10
Base Atk +6; CMB +11; CMD 23
Feats Dodge, Double Slice, Endurance, Iron Will, Power Attack, Toughness, Two-weapon Fighting
Traits Reckless, Seeker
Favored Terrain Forest
Skirmisher tricks Vengeance strike
Racial Traits Comprehensive Education, Bonus feat
Skills Acrobatics +6, Climb +8, Handle Animal +4, Heal +8, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +6, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +6, Knowledge (local) +7, Knowledge (nature) +11, Knowledge (religion) +6, Perception +10, Ride +5, Spellcraft 6, Stealth +10, Survival +9 (track +12), Swim +8;
Languages Common, Elven
Combat Gear healer's kit; Other Gear +1 mithral breastplate, +1 longsword, +1 short sword, arrows (20), mwk composite longbow (+5 Str), belt of giant strength +2, cloak of resist +1
Here I match or beat you on skills, but my attacks are slightly more accurate for a little less damage, But that's before my Favored enemies come in which makes me far more accurate and equal or more on damage per hit. Also letting my bow be more accurate and more damaging. Plus I have higher saves and was able to spend less on armor to afford cloak of resist. Lets not forget that I can let my allies fight better against my favored foes, bonus to skills in my favored terrain, skirmisher tricks, and have wild empathy.
These two are builds that match the take you did on him.
But other potential candidates for mechanical matching, especially if going a one weapon take, are, Dreadnought barbarian, getting half the bonuses of rage but no AC penalty and able to use skills while raging, plus beast totem to exceed AC. Savage Technologist is the least fluff filling, but getting bonuses to Str, Dex and will while raging while not taking any AC penalty can really up my AC in a fight letting me cap out on the dex cap of elven chain with the dex we've been using, also has access to beast totem for much AC over a fighter. And urban barb getting just the str boost with no AC penalty. Also vigilante is a candidate. Now these would probably be the less identical for the TWF build, But if you go with a One weapon approach for him all these get even better at having more.
There are many different ways to interpret Strider in Pathfinder. No one way is necessarily better or worse than any other, interpretation tends to be a personal matter as much is based on personal opinion.
That being said, as a 6th level fighter...
It took a few days for me to have time, but here are some striders
Taking a look at the slayer a few items of note popped up.The -2 to-hit penalty for TWF is not applied
* +6 BAB + 5 str + 1 weapon enhancement -2 TWF = +10/+5 (1d8+6/19-20/x2) and +10 (1d6+6/19-20/x2)
TWF and Double Slice require a minimum dexterity of 15 - I assume this was bypassed by using two of your slayer talents to pick up the TWF ranger combat style.
I assume the third slayer talent was used to pick up the rogue talent Combat Trick -> Power Attack
Good use of an alternate racial trait to both match knowledge proficiencies and add a static bonus to class knowledges. It let you match the lore warden's knowledge base with 1 less skill point / level.
The elven chain was a thematic choice: I could have taken the Armor Expert Trait to reduce the ACP of a mithral breastplate and followed up with a cloak of resistance. Musings on the subject of Iron Will were included in my earlier post.
With studied target you can keep up in DPR (-1 dpr for off hand is trivial at this point.) against a single target, but action economy on any fight with multiple opponents will be hit hard.
Have not had time to review the skirmisher ranger. Looking forward to doing so.
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Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
You're right, I did forget the TWF penalties, which does bring it closer to the same combat. I also forgot them in the ranger version. Such a simple mistake.
You assumed right about the feats. Your'e right that studied target isn't the most fluid now. Next level when it becomes a swift action is when it really becomes fluid, but that's not in the scope. Still though, if I'm able to pull off sneak attack on a target I get studied target as a "swift" action. So a little flanking goes a long way.
Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
I did TWF because he did for some reason. And I felt that me switching combat styles would lead to a bad comparison of the classes.
Also, leadership is a lv 7 feat, so it's not forgotten, just not in the level range.
Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
I did TWF because he did for some reason. And I felt that me switching combat styles would lead to a bad comparison of the classes.
Also, leadership is a lv 7 feat, so it's not forgotten, just not in the level range.
It was a fair a good comparison.
I enjoyed it.
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Fighters need to have the versatility to deal with any circumstance in combat. They need to be able to shoot things at range, throw weapons at mid range, charge at the proper range, hold the line with reach weapons and then tank in close combat when and if the enemies get close. Right now the Fighter does not have the versatility to do that. They don't have Acrobatics nor do they have the skill points to take it so trip around a lot and hampered by difficult terrain. They don't have the saves to deal with mind-effecting and reflex affecting attacks. And they seem to have less class features than most other classes. Fighters need more class features because Feats are NEVER as good as Class Features. Honestly Bravery VS the Paladin ability to add their CHA to all their saves, you can tell which ability is better.
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Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
Just to play Devil's Advocate, he does Dual Wield Sword and Improvised Weapon (Torch) once in the movie at Weathertop. But no clue if he's using TWF Feat or just eating the attack penalties. He certainly couldn't hit crap till he took the standard action to throw the torch!
Just to play Devil's Advocate, he does Dual Wield Sword and Improvised Weapon (Torch) once in the movie at Weathertop. But no clue if he's using TWF Feat or just eating the attack penalties. He certainly couldn't hit crap till he took the standard action to throw the torch!Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
That torch was clearly being used to add a circumstance modifier to his intimidate checks.
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Just to play Devil's Advocate, he does Dual Wield Sword and Improvised Weapon (Torch) once in the movie at Weathertop. But no clue if he's using TWF Feat or just eating the attack penalties. He certainly couldn't hit crap till he took the standard action to throw the torch!
He can switch between the two on his iterative attacks without taking penalties. We'll have to rewatch and time his attacks over 6 seconds ;)
That torch was clearly being used to add a circumstance modifier to his intimidate checks.Just to play Devil's Advocate, he does Dual Wield Sword and Improvised Weapon (Torch) once in the movie at Weathertop. But no clue if he's using TWF Feat or just eating the attack penalties. He certainly couldn't hit crap till he took the standard action to throw the torch!Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
Can Nazgul be intimidated? I would have assumed they are undead.
I will note: while I gave my version of Striker two longswords, nothing stops him from two-handing just one.
I was going for maximum versatility.
Can Nazgul be intimidated? I would have assumed they are undead.That torch was clearly being used to add a circumstance modifier to his intimidate checks.Just to play Devil's Advocate, he does Dual Wield Sword and Improvised Weapon (Torch) once in the movie at Weathertop. But no clue if he's using TWF Feat or just eating the attack penalties. He certainly couldn't hit crap till he took the standard action to throw the torch!Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
I always assumed it's similar to vampire vulnerabilities.
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Can Nazgul be intimidated? I would have assumed they are undead.That torch was clearly being used to add a circumstance modifier to his intimidate checks.Just to play Devil's Advocate, he does Dual Wield Sword and Improvised Weapon (Torch) once in the movie at Weathertop. But no clue if he's using TWF Feat or just eating the attack penalties. He certainly couldn't hit crap till he took the standard action to throw the torch!Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
They're actually phantoms, so not technically undead even though they've died and are still sticking around. Sauron is a high level Spiritualist with lots of crafting feats who created special rings that allowed him to maintain multiple phantoms at the same time and caused anyone who wore one to become one of his phantoms. That's also why the Nazgul don't stay destroyed; they just retreat to Sauron's psyche to heal up. This should be really obvious.
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They're actually phantoms, so not technically undead even though they've died and are still sticking around. Sauron is a high level Spiritualist with lots of crafting feats who created special rings that allowed him to maintain multiple phantoms at the same time and caused anyone who wore one to become one of his phantoms. That's also why the Nazgul don't stay destroyed; they just retreat to Sauron's psyche to heal up. This should be really obvious.Can Nazgul be intimidated? I would have assumed they are undead.That torch was clearly being used to add a circumstance modifier to his intimidate checks.Just to play Devil's Advocate, he does Dual Wield Sword and Improvised Weapon (Torch) once in the movie at Weathertop. But no clue if he's using TWF Feat or just eating the attack penalties. He certainly couldn't hit crap till he took the standard action to throw the torch!Not sure why you guys are having Aragorn use 2-weapon fighting. In both the movies and the books, Aragorn only really used his Heirloom sword (he would not shut up about it in the books) and no other weapons.
You also both forgot leadership, a ghost cohort, and an army of ghost followers.
Oh
Mah.
Gerd.
Meh, I'm going through multiple builds...and this is what I am seeing:
I love the stamina mechanic, but the fighter does not get enough points fast enough. Fighters should get 2/level, not one.
Advanced Weapon Training, while great at 5th level, 4th for Weapon Master, the only once every 5 levels is too slow for fighters. I think it should be 2 or 3 level, you are spending a feat for it and this is what fighters do.
Better skill list and 4/level. At least Perception should be on the list.
Will Save...icky...something else aside from Bravery...just don't know how to address aside from making it a good save. Maybe allowing to use stamina pool to add Con mod to power through?
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My basic opinion of a Fighter is someone who represents one of the many long-standing worldwide martial traditions or a straight-up classical hero in the vein of Herakles.
Not enough on-the-fly weapon versatility, skillfulness or tactical ability for the former, and they just don't have the combative supremacy of the latter.
Hey, at least they have Herakles' abysmal will save!
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Veldan - what I was thinking about was making bravery give you +1 per 2 levels to saves vs fear and your stamina pool, with an option to spend up to that number of stamina points as an immediate action to get the same bonus to any save, basically either a last-minute frantic action or soldiering on through the pain.
The second bonus is powerful, but even at higher levels it consumes a fair bit of stamina and an immediate action. Plus, I fighters as the combat stamina specialist class, so I am hoping they could get some tricks with it.
Veldan - what I was thinking about was making bravery give you +1 per 2 levels to saves vs fear and your stamina pool, with an option to spend up to that number of stamina points as an immediate action to get the same bonus to any save, basically either a last-minute frantic action or soldiering on through the pain.
The second bonus is powerful, but even at higher levels it consumes a fair bit of stamina and an immediate action. Plus, I fighters as the combat stamina specialist class, so I am hoping they could get some tricks with it.
That could work too.
I'm pretty sure a cap on the bonus to the will save would be in order, +5 or so.
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The thing is, historically speaking, the proper fighters of our mythology and history were bloody intelligent combatants. They had to be. They had to know how most every strike, counter, weapon, material and fighting style of their era worked on an intimate level, or they'd have quickly become useless. They moved with the times, which is a hilarious idea given that the tabletop Fighter really has not.
Sure, your average soldier didn't have all that, but that's why we have the Warrior NPC Class. You don't play an average soldier, you play the best there is at what your character does.
Your Wizard will end up sundering reality for convenience, so let's have the Lvl 20 Fighter win entire battles through sheer skill and talent once in a while, eh? It's not too far-fetched, and let's face it the Fighter is still a fantasy class in a fantasy setting, so it should have some ability to do some truly Extraordinary things. That plus whatever to weapons... that's real-life level stuff. You should get that at third level and have it actually scale high and fast. The Fighter should be better than anyone else at having the right combative tool for any job; they should be able to pick up most any weapon and instinctively know exactly how it kills people to the best effect. Eventually they should even get the ability to become selectively proficient with an Exotic weapon after using it for a day or so.
IN FACT!!! They could get bonus feats at-will similar to a Brawler, but dependant on what weapon, shield and armour they're using! Like a bonus appropriate Weapon Trick and Armor Trick, for starters. Then you add on other bonuses depending on weapon groups later on: maybe a bonus to feinting with Light Weapons, or a bonus to AC with Double Weapons! I really want to build this now.
Goshdarn, I mean, I love Pathfinder to bits, and Fighters make incredible dipping classes, but they missed a trick by not Unchaining this dude.
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I think the Fighter just isn't special enough. He needs to be the best in armor and with weapons in general. That is their schtick. They train with and then master them.
A few of these were brought up before (Can't remember who. Sorry. Long topic, but...
1)Move Armor Training and Weapon Training up 2 levels. Give the Fighter something unique at level one.
2)Armor training should give a scaling untyped bonus to AC (Towards touch as well) up to +5.
3) Weapon Trainings should be at max value (Up to plus 5 with earlier weapon training) and have a weapon training extends feats for a specific weapon to the while group. Perhaps allows a weekly changing of the weapon groups (Along with subsequent specific feats). Would suck to get the McGuffin legendary sword of greatness only to have specialized in heavy blades and not light.
4) Give them 3 middling saves. Starting at +1 going up to +9.
5) Free Exotic Weapon Proficiency. Just a little something to make them the premier proficient martial.
I think all these changes are fitting. The fighter would have the best AC and be the most versatile with weaponry (Eventually) but Barbs can still fly and rangelancepounce and Paladins are still ridiculous.
Taking it further (This is just me musing about an Unchained Fighter, since I'm just taking the best pieces of each Archetype and baking them in) perhaps give the Fighter an option for a "Natural Talent." The flavor would be despite the Fighter's training and resultant versatility, he still favors a certain fighting style. Some examples would be:
Can't think of much for Archery and Two-handed. Maybe the ability to crafts arrows for ranged combat maneuvers and 1d4s added to two handed attacks as you level.
Going even further, maybe give less Advanced Trainings for really powerful options, but you only get 3. Things like a shield bash as a swift action (Counting as several shield bash feats for purposes of pre requisites) or gaining Stalwart or Dr. Perhaps lock really powerful ones behind the natural talents.
But this is all in a perfect world, where the Monk can move 5x their level and take a full round action and magic isn't turbo ridiculous.
I like the free exotic weapon proficiency, great idea! :-)
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My fighter fix is here. I made sure it was still very very very simple to play since one of my players specifically used Fighter for his PC's because he didn't want to have to deal with complexity, and that it should increase the character concepts fighter without removing old flavours.
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My fighter fix is here. I made sure it was still very very very simple to play since one of my players specifically used Fighter for his PC's because he didn't want to have to deal with complexity, and that it should increase the character concepts fighter without removing old flavours.
I like the redesign in general; it improves what the Fighter is good at while keeping it pretty simple. Obviously the retraining options can be complex since it's similar to having a spellbook of feats that you may wish to retrain for the day (i.e. daily memorization) so... sort of like an Arcanist I suppose.
That said, if I may, I have the following observations:
- Brutal Strike seems a little much for 6th level. You get to make the decision after knowing the result of the damage roll and while the save is Fort (recognized as one of the better saves for monsters), it is literally a save or die option. I don't know that that is very common at that level though I admit I may be wrong.
- Combat Mobility might be better stated as providing multiple 5 foot steps. It could prevent table confusion since 'five foot step' is what folks think of with regard to 'I can move this short distance without provoking' in combat.
- And in general and in keeping with the thread, it would be nice to have more long distance mobility options and methods for dealing with magic.
That said, if I may, I have the following observations:
- Brutal Strike seems a little much for 6th level. You get to make the decision after knowing the result of the damage roll and while the save is Fort (recognized as one of the better saves for monsters), it is literally a save or die option. I don't know that that is very common at that level though I admit I may be wrong.
The first save or die comes into the game as 7th level as far as I can tell for wizards, and I feel as though wizards shouldn't be the first to get "Auto-kill" powers. Though I could change it to be triggered on hit rather than post-damage.
- Combat Mobility might be better stated as providing multiple 5 foot steps. It could prevent table confusion since 'five foot step' is what folks think of with regard to 'I can move this short distance without provoking' in combat.
I wasn't sure whether to do that because that would allow for moving after each attack in a full-attack and I haven't playtested that with fighters yet. Did have that with my monk fix though, and it didn't seem to cause much issue so far.
- And in general and in keeping with the thread, it would be nice to have more long distance mobility options and methods for dealing with magic.
The warrior I made with it had a half-celestial dragon minion from Skilled Past (Wizard) who served rather well for long-distance mobility, and there was supposed to be a feat I made which allowed characters to reach destinations faster and travel the planes if they had ranks in Know Geography and Know Planes by using shadow-touched pathways... which seems to not be there anymore.... I will need to fix that.
edit: Fixed the feat thing while also adding in the concept of Arete Feats. If anyone has ideas for arete feats that'd be decent I'll add them, though I'm uncertain about Superleaping because I made that a rage power thing with my barbarian fix....
Quick thoughts looking at this:
Love the idea of the Skilled Past!
It really broadens what you can do with fighters, and it'll be a way for me to add in "Okay you get superpowers now" when my players want by just making up a Skilled Past that fits their theme. I mean, we could probably convert that valkyrie thing from earlier into a skilled past without having to worry about balance issues. Though, the power of skilled pasts does lean more to fluffy stuff than powerful combat stuff so it wouldn't be as epic without taking additional feats which build upon the Valkyrie Skilled Past's skeleton.
Just making sure I understand: With Combat Mobility, a Fighter can move 10' without provoking and then full attack? That seems pretty powerful.
So far hasn't caused any issues in my game but reach weapon enemies have been relatively rare so I've planned a few extra reach-based NPC's in my future sessions. But it's power is part of the reason why I am unsure about making it multiple 5 ft. steps, which was fine on my monk fix but the monk fix dealt out less damage than a fighter could with 5 ft. step + Attack + 5 ft. step + attack + 5 ft. step + attack + 5 ft. step + attack.
How do you distribute Skill Unlocks to other classes?
So far only given them to Fighter and Rogue (who gets them at the same rate as Unchained Rogue), since I've only done Barbarian, Fighter, Monk, Rogue and Wizard so far. Though unhinged rogue did have more abilities which tie into their skill unlocks than a unchained rogue did, with abilities which aid their sneak attacks and being able to do stuff like using sleight of hand skill unlock to steal a persons sight or knowledge (engineering) skill unlock to mathematically disprove someone's spell.
I want to use it for my players that don't want to come up with a background until after the fact (sometimes due to laziness, sometimes due to wanting to work it into the main plot). "If you don't come up with something by level three you have to pick a Skilled Past".
VCM starting at 3rd level to actually kick in is rather useful considering how many players seem to enjoy thinking up their characterization as they play rather than just as a Backstory from before play.
I also feel sorry for people unable to provide their own coherent arguments.A good chunk of the fighters ability is a full bab letting it take multiple attacks when holding still, which is a problem when you need to move. most other ful bab classes have some way of compensating for this, the fighter doesn't.
I've never had this problem, I've always had enough feats to be able to spend some on a ranged option for when the bads were out of reach
I've never had this problem, I've always had enough feats to be able to spend some on a ranged option for when the bads were out of reachI also feel sorry for people unable to provide their own coherent arguments.A good chunk of the fighters ability is a full bab letting it take multiple attacks when holding still, which is a problem when you need to move. most other full bab classes have some way of compensating for this, the fighter doesn't.
So you are a greatsword build, the baddie is 20ft away and fighting an ally. Are you whipping out your bow for this? Really? Cause this is the situation where the bad is out of reach. Or are you moving and getting one attack? Either way you do your turn and your team finished him off before your next turn, now the next baddie in this fight is again 20ft away from you and attacking your wizard. Are you going to keep using your bow, or move and use the greatsword?
The needing to move every round or so to get to a bad guy is the problem BNW is talking about. Barbarians, druids, alchemists, Mediums, Vigilantes, etc. all have pounce or a way to move and full attack. Some really low levels, other get it around 12 and a few wait till 20, but most weapon users get a way to move and full attack. Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.
I've never had this problem, I've always had enough feats to be able to spend some on a ranged option for when the bads were out of reachI also feel sorry for people unable to provide their own coherent arguments.A good chunk of the fighters ability is a full bab letting it take multiple attacks when holding still, which is a problem when you need to move. most other full bab classes have some way of compensating for this, the fighter doesn't.So you are a greatsword build, the baddie is 20ft away and fighting an ally. Are you whipping out your bow for this? Really? Cause this is the situation where the bad is out of reach. Or are you moving and getting one attack? Either way you do your turn and your team finished him off before your next turn, now the next baddie in this fight is again 20ft away from you and attacking your wizard. Are you going to keep using your bow, or move and use the greatsword?
The needing to move every round or so to get to a bad guy is the problem BNW is talking about. Barbarians, druids, alchemists, Mediums, Vigilantes, etc. all have pounce or a way to move and full attack. Some really low levels, other get it around 12 and a few wait till 20, but most weapon users get a way to move and full attack. Fighter is one of few classes that don't have a way to do that.
If the fight is only lasting one round, it's not challenging enough to be worried about full attacking.
yeah, there are at least 2 baddies, and the first target is already within full attack range of your ally. Do your parties not drop 1 guy a round when you focus-fire it and there are at least 1 if not more other enemies in the fight so they aren't much if any over your CR?
Say it was a combat divine (cleric, oracle, inquisitor, WP) that buffed themselves and got attacked by the enemy, wizard has already cast haste, and an archer gets some shots off before your turn and after you before your second turn. A reasonable party to have, and in this fight the fighter is not doing the majority of DPR that you'd expect from a DPR build.