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If you beat a horse enough, can it fit through an arrow slit?
Yes, but only a little at a time.
I am telling you what the rules say. If you disagree provide rules to back your statement.That is not accurate because the caster is using rule specific to spells, and bow or crossbow shoot is not.I disagree. A hole that is too small to use to perform an action is a hole that is too small to use to perform that action, regardless of what action one is talking about. Different actions will require different sized holes, but that's not the point.
I... evidently have no idea what you're talking about then. So I don't know if I disagree with you, or if you disagree with me. 'Cuz I said a bunch of stuff, and you said something that took me out of context (I think), and I reiterated the context, and looking for rules somewhere. Dunno. Communications breakdown on this argument.
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Here's a fun mental exercise for all you savvy rules lawyers out there:
So there is a murder hole in the door (really just a small barred window) which is just large enough for me to stick my arm through it. I want to shoot a fireball through it, but the GM says I don't have line of effect to do so, per the rules from the Magic chapter of the Core rulebook. Apparently you need a square foot in order to qualify for line of effect.
I knew this already, but a fireball bead streaks out from one's pointing digit/appendage, right? So if my arm (or even my finger) will fit, then I can effectively shoot a fireball through the aperture (since it will basically be created on the other side of the barrier), no?
My GM says no, since the opening is not big enough to qualify for line of effect. According to him, even though I can fit my arm through it, my character's space is still technically on the wrong side of the barrier and so the rule still applies.
What do you guys think?
My presumption would be that, considering that most spells have somatic components (I'm too lazy to look up if fireball is one of those with somatic components.), that wriggling your hand around the murder hole would not count as a somatic component, and therefore you would not be able to cast a spell by sticking your finger through the murder hole.
Now, however, this is where things get tricky.
If one of my players has the feat Still Spell, I, as a GM, would allow it.
Then another question arises if you really, really want to annoy your GM:
Can't I just make my hand into a gun-shape when I want to fire my spell?
Answer: It depends. A kind GM (or one whose to tired to look up your question,) may allow this. A GM who thinks this one over (especially if this was me) would most likely give it to you as well, albeit at a -4 penalty.
Bottom line, you should discuss this with your GM before doing the action, and he/she should look up the official ruling after the session has ended.
Hope that helps!
-Theliah Strongarm
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In a slight detour into strange side questions, if you use the ectoplasmic metamagic feat on the fireball, does the bead become incorporeal?
And as a psychic bloodline sorcerer, none of your spells have somatic components, and you have eschew materials so can you still not do the whole point out the murder hole without an attack roll.
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The border with the arrow slit provides cover. Therefore, the target of the archer also gets cover from the arrow slit. There's nothing in the rules that subdivides a border into open and closed areas with regard to cover, except that a solid barrier provides total cover. According to the rules, if the arrow slit provides cover for the attacker, then it provides cover for the defender.
While there's nothing in the specific arrow slit rules about this, I'd be inclined to rule the target gets regular cover due to the very limited field of vision of the attacker, with the following caveat:
1) attacker gets improved cover i.e. +8 to AC, as per the arrow slit rules; and
2) target gets regular cover i.e. +4 to AC.
--> basically, advantage to the one behind the arrow slit.
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In a slight detour into strange side questions, if you use the ectoplasmic metamagic feat on the fireball, does the bead become incorporeal?
Ectoplasmic Spell just adds the ability to affect incorporeal creatures fully. It does not make the spell incorporeal; it still affects corporeal creatures and objects fully as well.
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The border with the arrow slit provides cover. Therefore, the target of the archer also gets cover from the arrow slit. There's nothing in the rules that subdivides a border into open and closed areas with regard to cover, except that a solid barrier provides total cover. According to the rules, if the arrow slit provides cover for the attacker, then it provides cover for the defender.
There is some rule that say that an arrow slit should be drawn in the center of a square?
You can draw it so that it start on the corner of a square, so that the archer can fire trough it without problems.
Archers behind arrow slits have improved cover that gives them a +8 bonus to Armor Class, a +4 bonus on Reflex saves, and the benefits of the improved evasion class feature.
Now we can spend the next 2 hundred post discussing what is the meaning of behind in that phrase. You should be adjacent, or the guy on the other side of the arrowslit and 100' away is behind it?
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The border with the arrow slit provides cover. Therefore, the target of the archer also gets cover from the arrow slit. There's nothing in the rules that subdivides a border into open and closed areas with regard to cover, except that a solid barrier provides total cover. According to the rules, if the arrow slit provides cover for the attacker, then it provides cover for the defender.There is some rule that say that an arrow slit should be drawn in the center of a square?
You can draw it so that it start on the corner of a square, so that the archer can fire trough it without problems.
That absolutely doesn't matter. The cover rules say nothing about passing or not passing through an 'opening' in a boundary, but merely whether a boundary provides cover or not. The boundary with an arrow slit provides cover, no matter if the arrow slit is drawn in the center or starting at a corner.
And really, do you think the rules should change depending on how gridlines are arbitrarily aligned with the arrow slit construction?
The rules about cover say a lot about passing on not passing through covering terrain and the effect of how the arrowslit is drawn. .
To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target's square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC).
1) You select the corner near the arrowslit.
2) it it is drawn as a straight line it almost sure the target benefit from cover, if instead is drawn in a way that show some width, the lines you draw to the corners of the target creature will probably connect all the creature square corners without touching the border of the arrowslit. If that is true the target has no cover.Without cover he don't get the benefit of improved cover from the arrowslit.
Or more simply, you can assume that they are made to do their work, they restrict somewhat your field of fire, but don't give the targets cover.
Magic lightning bolt is magical.
Magic fireball is magical.
The fireball says "An early impact results in an early detonation."
It also says the caster must point. If you stick your hand through the the bars and point at the end of the spell casting, you are firing blind. You shouldn't get the save for half, but you do, if the door goes by-by. What happens to your hand if the door survives is up to the GM or Devs. May I suggest the caster takes 1D4 damage and the hand is disabled till healed?
I'd probably count it as arcane spell failure chance of 20%. Also if you lose line of sight I'd say you'd be dealing with blind fighting, but you know what 'square' you want; I'd roll a d8 and treat it like a splash weapon.
It seems I've created a monster (again). ;P
Now that I am at a computer:
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.It doesn't say that sticking your hand in the hole stops the barrier from blocking line of effect. It just says that the barrier provides it unless the hole is a certain size, and no other exception is given.
So no, putting your hand in the hold per a strict reading of the rules does not allow you to ignore the barrier. If we are really going to go by RAW that is how it works.
Interesting. If I put a 1' wide hole in every room of the dungeon (say, air duct system, or a drain system in the floor), the BBEG can cast spells on the PCs from hundreds of feet away, having full LOE to them in the first room... wow. So the BBEG appears in room 1, using Project Image, hits them with fireballs and lightning bolts. Then vanishes into thin air. Room 2, repeat. Room 3, repeat, ad nauseum. LOL
It seems I've created a monster (again). ;P
Well, I think this one is just because you keep it going RD. I have a lot of respect for you as I've been reading your posts on here for years and years, and I agree with most of what you say when it comes down to it. Though, it seems lately some of your threads are more argumentative than they used to be. Maybe it's the game you're in.
The fireball spell pretty much says you can do what you're trying to do, but the GM shut you down, probably because he doesn't want the player (you in this case) to hurt his precious NPCs. I get it. As a GM I sometimes cringe when an NPC I spent hours carefully crafting with stats, motivations, backstory etc, suddenly gets wiped without even getting a word out first. But it's not really 'your' game as the GM, it's shared between you and the players. There is a reason that roleplaying is called "interactive storytelling", it's the interactive part which requires cooperation. So as the GM you need to be willing to give as much as you take when it comes to control over how the game plays out, or else it's less fun for the players, and there will always be that adversarial overtone to the game which can really kill the fun. If that's a consistent theme in the game you're in now RD, I'd consider leaving that group.
A better way for your GM to react is to allow what you want to do, then think about the consequences of that action. Was the NPC on the other side of that door a minion of a more powerful bad guy? Will that bad guy want revenge? Will some shopkeeper hear about it via rumors and give RD a discount for killing that scumbag who collected the protection money every week? That is the job of a GM, to build story. Not to look for ways to shut down the PCs ideas.
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Now that I am at a computer:
An otherwise solid barrier with a hole of at least 1 square foot through it does not block a spell's line of effect. Such an opening means that the 5-foot length of wall containing the hole is no longer considered a barrier for purposes of a spell's line of effect.It doesn't say that sticking your hand in the hole stops the barrier from blocking line of effect. It just says that the barrier provides it unless the hole is a certain size, and no other exception is given.
So no, putting your hand in the hold per a strict reading of the rules does not allow you to ignore the barrier. If we are really going to go by RAW that is how it works.
Interesting. If I put a 1' wide hole in every room of the dungeon (say, air duct system, or a drain system in the floor), the BBEG can cast spells on the PCs from hundreds of feet away, having full LOE to them in the first room... wow. So the BBEG appears in room 1, using Project Image, hits them with fireballs and lightning bolts. Then vanishes into thin air. Room 2, repeat. Room 3, repeat, ad nauseum. LOL
Note that square borders block LOS and LOE too. So if you have a 1' hole but your line of sight or line of effect cross a square border without a1' hole, it is blocked.
Essentially your BEEG need a straight line of holes 1' square large from his room to the target room. It can be done, but it open him to retaliation by any spellcaster or archer.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It seems I've created a monster (again). ;PMission accomplished! We know how much you love to create monsters. :)
Not exactly a secret, eh Herr RavenStein?
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It seems I've created a monster (again). ;PMission accomplished! We know how much you love to create monsters. :)
*Coddles Monster Thread*
Eh, what was that?