I'm new to PFS and have read some guides for Warpriest builds but I felt there was some flexibility in the feat chains that could really work well with other races. I wanted to make an archer warpriest build so I'm doing damage but still back to provide light healing support, but I'm having trouble picking my race and feat chain. I was thinking one of three options.
OPTION 1:
Human 20pb
STR: 14
DEX: 18 (+2)
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 7
Traits: Reactionary, Fate’s Favored
Blessings: Destruction , Good
Diety: Ragathiel - Bastard Sword
Feats:
BF) WF Longbow
1) Point Blank shot
1H) Precise shot
3rd Combat Bonus) Deadly aim
3) Rapid shot
5) Improved Initiative
6th Combat Bonus) Many shot
7) Combat reflexes
9) Snapshot
9th Combat Bonus) Improved Snapshot
11) Quicken Blessing
OPTION 1 VARIANT: Swap out Deadly aim or Improved Initiative Feat with Weapon Finesse and Pick a god with a finesse-able weapon (maybe a kukhri, Dagger, or Rapier). Or since I am one feat up I could throw in Cluster Shot and help with later DR issues.
OPTION 2:
Half Orc 20pb
STR: 14
DEX: 18 (+2)
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 7
Racial Traits - Sacred Tattoo, Shaman's Apprentice, Fey Thoughts, Human Favored Racial Trait
Traits: Reactionary, Fate’s Favored
Blessings: Destruction , Good
Diety: Ragathiel - Bastard Sword
Feats:
BF) WF Longbow
1) Point Blank shot
3rd Combat Bonus) Precise shot
3) Rapid shot
5) Improved Initiative or Deadly Aim
6th Combat Bonus) Many shot
7) Combat reflexes
9) Snapshot
9th Combat Bonus) Improved Snapshot
11) Quicken Blessing
This gives me all the racial benefits of the half orc, more HP from the toughness feat, more class skills, and better saves when coupled with Fate's Favoured (seems like a good tradeoff for the 1 feat from humans). Since I'm dumping Charisma, if no one like me or the way I look that will lend to my persona.
OPTION 2 VARIANT: Swap out Deadly aim or Improved Initiative Feat with Weapon Finesse and Pick a god with a finesse-able weapon (maybe a kukhri or dagger).
OPTION 3:
Half Elf 20pb
STR: 14
DEX: 18 (+2)
CON: 12
INT: 12
WIS: 14
CHA: 7
Racial Traits - Ancestral Arms (Estoc, Wakizashi,or Katana), pick human favored Racial Trait
Traits: Reactionary, Fate’s Favored
Blessings: Good, Air
Diety: Ylimancha - Long Bow
Feats:
BF) WF Estoc, Wakizashi,or Katana
1) Point Blank shot
3rd Combat Bonus) Precise shot
3) Rapid shot
5) Improved Initiative or Deadly Aim
6th Combat Bonus) Many shot
7) Combat reflexes
9) Snapshot
9th Combat Bonus) Improved Snapshot
11) Quicken Blessing
This gives me all the racial benefits of the half elf and allows me to have a second exotic sacred weapon that helps me in Melee. I have to WF on that weapon, but it means I can have more averaged melee/ranged abilities.
OPTION 3 VARIANT: Swap out Deadly aim or Improved Initiative Feat with Weapon Finesse. This would work with the Estoc or Wakizashi and allow me to really be a switch hitter when needed.
For all 3 builds I'm just not sure how much I really need Deadly Aim to help me with encounters. I feel like the half orc with +2 to all saves, extra health, and darkvision really benefits me away and above being 1 feat behind the human, especially when one of the feats isn't necessarily needed (improved initiative).
I reccomend you go with your second build, the half orc, just because im a big fan of boosting my saves accross the board. Two suggestions:
Take arsenal chaplain atchetype for weapon training (at very low cost) longbow
Take the human favored class bonus for an extra feat at level 6. (I didn't see this in your build.)
Deadly Aim is good, but you need to keep in mind that with 3/4 BAB, you might have a hard time hitting with your bow later on.
If you want to focus on just the bow, I'd recommend picking up Empty Quiver Style, since it lets you use your bow as if it were a heavy mace, and with Empty Quiver Flexibility any benefits applying to your bow (Weapon Focus, Sacred Weapon, etc.) will apply for both ranged and melee attacks with it.
I have a question: is Improved Initiative ever needed? I simply can't see how a +4 bonus could be that strong a swing on a d20 check that it would be worth an entire feat slot. Maybe it's just that I never play fighters, but then, this isn't a fighter build. There has to be something better that the OP can do with that feat even playing a human, is what I'm thinking.
Of course, the same applies to some other feats even more strongly. (Spell Penetration, offering only +2 on a d20 check, comes especially to mind.) Some people seem to just love these feats, so I'm hoping someone here can explain why.
Del_Taco_Eater wrote: I reccomend you go with your second build, the half orc, just because im a big fan of boosting my saves accross the board. Two suggestions:
Take arsenal chaplain atchetype for weapon training (at very low cost) longbow
Take the human favored class bonus for an extra feat at level 6. (I didn't see this in your build.)
I'm not sure I'm a fan of that archetype. Its looks like it reaches it's best points at level 5 and beyond, but before that I will be down a blessing type.
The human favoured class bonus is combat reflexes, but it doesn't turn on until level 7 due to BAB requirements.
How set are you to having Ragathiel as your Deity?
If you worship Erastil (LongBow) you can pick up the trait: Deadeye Bowman (Inner Sea Gods) which allows you to shot through a single creature with a Longbow without that creature providing soft cover (+4 AC Bonus)
If you plan on using a weapon with a good damage die, Arsenal Chaplain in my opinion, is straight up better. As it gives you more accuracy with weapon training. Being able to hit is always better.
Giving up 2 Blessing for the War Blessing can be slightly painful. Thing is, the War Blessing is a good blessing and getting it as a swift action without spending a feat is pure goodness.
You do loss Channel Energy but as a Warpriest, you should not be using it as it cost too much.
Diachronos wrote: Deadly Aim is good, but you need to keep in mind that with 3/4 BAB, you might have a hard time hitting with your bow later on.
If you want to focus on just the bow, I'd recommend picking up Empty Quiver Style, since it lets you use your bow as if it were a heavy mace, and with Empty Quiver Flexibility any benefits applying to your bow (Weapon Focus, Sacred Weapon, etc.) will apply for both ranged and melee attacks with it.
I suspect that I will throw my attribute points into dex (+20 in the end) and get an extra bonus through equipment. Beyond that I'll buff my wisdom with an item to 18. So I'm not sure what AC I'll need to overcome but it should be +5-7 from Dex, + 6 or more at higher levels from BAB on first attack, -2 from rapid shot. It might be that my 3rd or 4th arrow miss on many shot and rapid shot.
Bow melee would be pretty fun and give me good flavour, but I would be afraid some jerk monster would sunder by bow and leave me with my pants down. Part of my weapon finesse plan was to have a buckler on my bow holding arm hand so that I can cast somatic spells with my arrow hand at range and draw a weapon/drop bow and still cast in combat with my buckler hand in melee. The GM might call me on having to switch the bow in my hands during melee to ensure I keep my AC bonus and can cast still. Given my bonus to sacred weapon damage, it would make a weapon with better critical range more viable as the light/heavy mace don't shine in those areas.
Diachronos wrote: Deadly Aim is good, but you need to keep in mind that with 3/4 BAB, you might have a hard time hitting with your bow later on. With bonuses from spells, like divine favor and divine power, your accuracy should be about as good as a full BAB class most of the time. And part of the reason Arsenal Champion is popular is because it also gives bonuses to accuracy.
Red Griffyn wrote: Del_Taco_Eater wrote: I reccomend you go with your second build, the half orc, just because im a big fan of boosting my saves accross the board. Two suggestions:
Take arsenal chaplain atchetype for weapon training (at very low cost) longbow
Take the human favored class bonus for an extra feat at level 6. (I didn't see this in your build.)
I'm not sure I'm a fan of that archetype. Its looks like it reaches it's best points at level 5 and beyond, but before that I will be down a blessing type.
The human favoured class bonus is combat reflexes, but it doesn't turn on until level 7 due to BAB requirements. Can you explain your comment about the favored class bonus? You should have two level 6 feats if you are taking it. In your build it looked like combat reflexes was just your lvl 7 feat.
IMO the blessings aren't a big deal until lvl 10, at which time you have a choice between weapon training +2 or your improved blessings, a matter of preference, really. I would rather have the +2.
Del_Taco_Eater wrote: Red Griffyn wrote: Del_Taco_Eater wrote: I reccomend you go with your second build, the half orc, just because im a big fan of boosting my saves accross the board. Two suggestions:
Take arsenal chaplain atchetype for weapon training (at very low cost) longbow
Take the human favored class bonus for an extra feat at level 6. (I didn't see this in your build.)
I'm not sure I'm a fan of that archetype. Its looks like it reaches it's best points at level 5 and beyond, but before that I will be down a blessing type.
The human favoured class bonus is combat reflexes, but it doesn't turn on until level 7 due to BAB requirements. Can you explain your comment about the favored class bonus? You should have two level 6 feats if you are taking it. In your build it looked like combat reflexes was just your lvl 7 feat.
IMO the blessings aren't a big deal until lvl 10, at which time you have a choice between weapon training +2 or your improved blessings, a matter of preference, really. I would rather have the +2. My Mistake. I am missing the level 6th feat, which I had intended to take. That means I get an extra feat at level 6 for each build above. That gives me even more breathing room than I originally thought.
I feel a lot of people don't value the blessings much because they are a standard action to cast for at least 10 or 11 levels, and that you are full of swift action buffs.
Why spend a standard action to get +5 damage and full attack next round when you can full attack twice? A fight needs to last many rounds to make 1 round of self buffing worth it damage wise.
My Warpriest will often start a melee as such: standard = Blessing, Swift = cast buff spell, move = move toward the enemy. Its very rare that he could full attack on the 1st turn. For an archer, this is not an issue. However, there are Blessings, like Travel, that use swift or move actions to activate their powers. I think these would be well suited for a ranged combatant.
Chess Pwn wrote: I feel a lot of people don't value the blessings much because they are a standard action to cast for at least 10 or 11 levels, and that you are full of swift action buffs.
Why spend a standard action to get +5 damage and full attack next round when you can full attack twice? A fight needs to last many rounds to make 1 round of self buffing worth it damage wise.
Agreed. Also, The level when you can use them as a swift action it is in place of casting something like divine power
bitter lily wrote: I have a question: is Improved Initiative ever needed? I simply can't see how a +4 bonus could be that strong a swing on a d20 check that it would be worth an entire feat slot.... Well, normally the +4 bonus is combined with the +2 bonus from reactionary trait. 30% greater chance of going first probably means 15% more damage output and 15% less damage taken in combat on average.
Just my intuitive crack at the odds I have seen play out. And I like those odds.
Plus the DEX bonus. A caster with initiative of +9 has a real advantage over all the slowpokes with their measly +2. It is less devastating for melees, but hitting first is always good.
Or even just to not be flat-footed anymore.
something nice I found for (especially ranged, because they often do not Need to move) Warpriests with their many many Swift Actions:
Corset of delicate Moves
It prevents full attacking, but Warpriests have a lot of different Things to do in the first round as a Standard Action. Blessings, Offensive Spells, Group Buffs, maybe even another Self Buff.
And there are still 2 Swift Actions for the Swift self buff and Sacred Weapon (all in 1 round)
Vatras wrote: Plus the DEX bonus. A caster with initiative of +9 has a real advantage over all the slowpokes with their measly +2. It is less devastating for melees, but hitting first is always good. Umm, I usually have other things to do with traits, but I can see the point behind getting an extra +7 bonus. Still, if a caster has +2 from DEX, +2 from Reactionary, +4 from Impr Init, uh... I'm missing +1. +6 is a substantial bonus, I'll grant you, even with a d20 swing on things.
there's a 500gp ioun stone that gives +1 to init.
bitter lily wrote: Vatras wrote: Plus the DEX bonus. A caster with initiative of +9 has a real advantage over all the slowpokes with their measly +2. It is less devastating for melees, but hitting first is always good. Umm, I usually have other things to do with traits, but I can see the point behind getting an extra +7 bonus. Still, if a caster has +2 from DEX, +2 from Reactionary, +4 from Impr Init, uh... I'm missing +1. +6 is a substantial bonus, I'll grant you, even with a d20 swing on things. If you get initiative, things are flat-footed and easier to hit as well. Also, you are not flat-footed.
Ahhh! Thank you. So, even if someone didn't go with the trait, +5 between the Ioun stone & feat is significant -- and yes, it's good to go first.
In Rolemaster, you roll initiative every round, and there I've never questioned spending resources on initiative. But in D&D (3.x & beyond), it seems like a temporary advantage over some of the other advantages feats can bring. But not being flat-footed is important.
I've been mulling over everything you guys have said over the lask week. I think you guys have all made some really good suggestions, and I needed time to investigate the potential consequences of picking certain things. I hadn't realized that there was a -4 penalty to hit in melee in addition to a +4AC bonus to enemies for soft cover when I had first started this thread. That makes the Deadeye Bowman trait from Erastil really enticing (Thanks Matt2VK for the suggestion). I'm reluctant to have myself take a -4 penalty or give up a +4 AC bonus for any level. So I think I'm going to stick with my human mock-up so I can have extra feats to play with and have precise shot at level 1. Otherwise with my half-orc build I have to wait until level 3 to pick up precise shot to remove all my penalties.
Rules Questions:
1. The Archives of Nethys state that the WP is only legal with blessings form his deities' domain but that the Arsenal Chaplain archetype has to pick war even if his deity does not provide it. So is it PFS legal to use the Arsenal Chaplain archetype with Erastil just so I can grab the Deadeye Bowman trait (i.e., does one take precedence over the other?).
2. If I do take empty quiver style, do I get the weapon training bonus for longbows in melee with my bow, or only if I take the 9th level weapon training bump to whatever weapon category heavy maces are?
3. For my level 1/2 character re-build in PFS can I also change my race (i.e., be a human then change to half-orc for level 2)? I'm really fence sitting on it, but it'd mean I'd only have to work through 3 sessions with a -4 penalty on attacks into melee for a lot of really good things (bonus to saves, dark vision, extra hp, etc.).
(I will also post these questions in the rules area)
Further Recommendation Requests:
1. If I do go the route of the Arsenal Chaplain archetype. Are there any really good weapon training feats for bows that I might want to investigate? Most of them seem like I'd have to already have things like "Disarming Shot" or "Trip Shot" to get the "Ace" upgraded version. Though I think ace trip on flying creatures/people charging would be fun.
2. Are any of those really better than picking up snapshot/improved snapshot and just being a ranged character in melee?
1) yes, the archetype gives you war blessing instead of picking blessings from your deity.
3) As soon as you play lv2 or higher your character is locked. But until then anything can change.
Would you consider Warpriest/Evangelist of Erastil? 3rd Boon (which can be achieve by 14) for Erastil adds Wis to hit and damage when using a longbow. This is your casting stat so should be decently high anyway. Having a 20 lets say (14 + 6 headband), nets you +5 hit and damage to things that get close to you. Not to mention more skills, and only a one level delay on everything else.
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