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Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they're intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character's traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage. It's certainly possible, for example, that somewhere down the line, a "Courageous" trait might be on the list of dwarf race traits, but just because this trait is on both the dwarf race traits list and the basic combat traits list doesn't mean you're any more brave if you choose both versions than if you choose only one.
Right.
Many traits grant a trait bonus. They say "you get a +1 trait bonus to XXXX." Those don't stack. But nothing says "all traits grant a trait bonus." In fact the specific word used is "many." So if it's not called out as a trait bonus it's untyped.
If you follow that link above, scroll down to the faith traits and look for two side-by-side. Compare Devotee of the Green and Ease of Faith. One grants a trait bonus. The other is untyped.
Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they're intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character's traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage. It's certainly possible, for example, that somewhere down the line, a "Courageous" trait might be on the list of dwarf race traits, but just because this trait is on both the dwarf race traits list and the basic combat traits list doesn't mean you're any more brave if you choose both versions than if you choose only one.
I'm not seeing where that supports your assertion that untyped bonuses from traits don't stack with other bonuses from traits.
oh that wasn't me, i was just throwing the rule in there since no one else had yet
There are also the Arithmancy feat
I think most of us are trying to forget it exists.
Right.Many traits grant a trait bonus. They say "you get a +1 trait bonus to XXXX." Those don't stack. But nothing says "all traits grant a trait bonus." In fact the specific word used is "many." So if it's not called out as a trait bonus it's untyped.
While many traits grant a numerical bonus, not all traits do so.
Any numerical bonus granted by a trait is typed as a trait bonus unless explicitly called out otherwise.
There are also the Arithmancy featI think most of us are trying to forget it exists.
Very true.
Personally, I would smack any player trying to use that spell at one of my tables.
Right.Many traits grant a trait bonus. They say "you get a +1 trait bonus to XXXX." Those don't stack. But nothing says "all traits grant a trait bonus." In fact the specific word used is "many." So if it's not called out as a trait bonus it's untyped.
While many traits grant a numerical bonus, not all traits do so.
Any numerical bonus granted by a trait is typed as a trait bonus unless explicitly called out otherwise.
Could you cite a source for us please?
Could you cite a source for us please?
Right.Many traits grant a trait bonus. They say "you get a +1 trait bonus to XXXX." Those don't stack. But nothing says "all traits grant a trait bonus." In fact the specific word used is "many." So if it's not called out as a trait bonus it's untyped.
While many traits grant a numerical bonus, not all traits do so.
Any numerical bonus granted by a trait is typed as a trait bonus unless explicitly called out otherwise.
Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they're intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character's traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage. It's certainly possible, for example, that somewhere down the line, a "Courageous" trait might be on the list of dwarf race traits, but just because this trait is on both the dwarf race traits list and the basic combat traits list doesn't mean you're any more brave if you choose both versions than if you choose only one.
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I'm not seeing where that supports your assertion that untyped bonuses from traits don't stack with other bonuses from traits.
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Could you cite a source for us please?
Right.
Many traits grant a trait bonus. They say "you get a +1 trait bonus to XXXX." Those don't stack. But nothing says "all traits grant a trait bonus." In fact the specific word used is "many." So if it's not called out as a trait bonus it's untyped.While many traits grant a numerical bonus, not all traits do so.
Any numerical bonus granted by a trait is typed as a trait bonus unless explicitly called out otherwise.
Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus. Trait bonuses do not stack—they're intended to give player characters a slight edge, not a secret backdoor way to focus all of a character's traits on one type of bonus and thus gain an unseemly advantage. It's certainly possible, for example, that somewhere down the line, a "Courageous" trait might be on the list of dwarf race traits, but just because this trait is on both the dwarf race traits list and the basic combat traits list doesn't mean you're any more brave if you choose both versions than if you choose only one.
I'm pretty sure that you're reading that wrong. It says:
Many traits grant a new type of bonus
It doesn't say "All traits grant a trait bonus unless specified otherwise."
Compare two traits from right below the link posted.
Your faith in the natural world or one of the gods of nature makes it easy for you to pick up on related concepts. You gain a +1 trait bonus on Knowledge (geography) and Knowledge (nature) checks, and one of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
Your mentor, the person who invested your faith in you from an early age, took steps to ensure that you understood that what powers your divine magic is no different than that which powers the magic of other religions. This philosophy makes it easier for you to interact with others who may not share your views. You gain a +1 bonus on Diplomacy checks, and Diplomacy is always a class skill for you.
Devotee of the Green grants a trait bonus, Ease of Faith is untyped. Probably 90% of the traits in the APG do give trait bonuses, and they specifically call out that type. "Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus."
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I'm not seeing where that supports your assertion that untyped bonuses from traits don't stack with other bonuses from traits.
Snowlilly (and Blindmage) are not saying that untyped bonuses don't stack. They are asserting that all traits give trait bonuses, even if the trait description doesn't state a bonus type (and would therefore normally be untyped).
I'm attempting to show that there's no rules support for that interpretation.
I know I've seen something like a dev statement that trait bonuses don't stack, but I don't think it was 100% official.
I'm not seeing where that supports your assertion that untyped bonuses from traits don't stack with other bonuses from traits.
The FAQ states quite clearly that bonuses from Traits are typed as "Trait Bonuses"
Barring specific wording, that becomes the default bonus type. Paizo is certainly not got to retroactively errata all existing traits to specify bonus type after they issued a general statement on the matter.
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I'm not seeing where that supports your assertion that untyped bonuses from traits don't stack with other bonuses from traits.The FAQ states quite clearly that bonuses from Traits are typed as "Trait Bonuses"
Barring specific wording, that becomes the default bonus type. Paizo is certainly not got to retroactively errata all existing traits to specify bonus type after they issued a general statement on the matter.
But where is that general statement? Is it in a FAQ somewhere or are you talking about the quoted text from the APG above? Because that statement is in the same section of the same book as the two traits I quoted above. That "general statement" came at the same time as Devotee of the Green and Ease of Faith."
If that is the statement you are relying on, you're not parsing the language correctly.
'Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' is NOT the same as 'All traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' or even 'Traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus."
Many means "A large number" or "The majority." It doesn't mean "all."
'Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' is NOT the same as 'All traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' or even 'Traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus."
Many means "A large number" or "The majority." It doesn't mean "all."
Not all traits grant numerical bonuses, and some traits may specify an alternate bonus type.
Hence the usage of the word "many" instead of an inappropriate absolute.
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'Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' is NOT the same as 'All traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' or even 'Traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus."
Many means "A large number" or "The majority." It doesn't mean "all."
Not all traits grant numerical bonuses, and some traits may specify an alternate bonus type.
Hence the usage of the word "many" instead of an inappropriate absolute.
Then please, please, find me a quote that says "if the trait doesn't specify a type for a bonus it grants, it is a trait bonus."
Then please, please, find me a quote that says "if the trait doesn't specify a type for a bonus it grants, it is a trait bonus."'Many traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' is NOT the same as 'All traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus' or even 'Traits grant a new type of bonus: a "trait" bonus."
Many means "A large number" or "The majority." It doesn't mean "all."
Not all traits grant numerical bonuses, and some traits may specify an alternate bonus type.
Hence the usage of the word "many" instead of an inappropriate absolute.
That is exactly what the FAQ says.
I'm sorry if it is not using the exact words you want, but it is what it is. The FAQ can have no other meaning when taken in context.
Sigh. I guess we're not going to convince you.
Note that I don't think it's a bad idea to prohibit traits from stacking. But as written, a trait without a bonus type is a untyped bonus.
Even with a FAQ stating they are categorizing traits under a new type of bonus, a "trait bonus". They included the RAI along with the new bonus type, there is no intention of traits stacking.
Given the context supplied by the well explained RAI, correct interpretation of the FAQ puts the trait bonuses as typed by default.
Unless you can provide specific text that a given trait is typed differently, or untyped, if reverts to the default "trait bonus" type created in the FAQ.
Sloppy editing/writing: "trait" is a single word that fits snugly between "+#" and "bonus", adding a grand total of 7 characters worth of print space. 2 for the spacing, 5 for the word trait.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/traits/regional-traits/keeper-of-the-veil-regional- qadira
Keeper of the Veil: You gain a +1 competence bonus on Bluff and Disguise checks, and one of these skills (your choice) is always a class skill for you.
There are also the Arithmancy featI think most of us are trying to forget it exists.
Hey, it's not so bad.
As long as the witch trick is on the table, I think it's right to point out that the winter hag adds simulacrum as a coven SLA (no cost - make all the coven members you need). That's probably as cheesy (maybe less than) the coven trick for ~infinite caster level to start with, so make of that what you will.
With all those simulacrum, one hopes that the source caster thought to take some training in assorted ship and sailing-related skills. If you're going to have all those free crew, well ...
okay - more to the point. I did not find any verbage in FAQs (PFS, APG) or The Guide that state that all traits give trait bonuses. In fact,
And you won't, because of traits like the one posted above, that give competency bonuses, etc.
All implies an absolute, which does not exist with specific feats specifying a different bonus type.
If we're talking flat caster levels, it's not feasible, nor would it probably be intended. If we're talking caster levels for certain spells, then yes, it's possible.
Arcanists with Potent Magic grant an extra +2 Caster Level to their spellcasts by using their Arcane Reservoir (with Potent Magic Exploit). Spell Specialization improves the Caster Level of a single spell by 2. Varisian/Mage's Tattoo adds another Caster Level to the spell school in which you took Spell Focus. Bloodmage Initiate adds another +1 Caster Level (but reduces your overall mobility). Traits can add +1 Caster Level to specific spells. Spell Perfection doubles the benefits of Feats that apply to the spell you chose.
To review, we have:
20 Base + 2 Exploit + 1 Trait + (2 Spell Perfection(1 Bloodmage Initiate + 1 Mage's Tattoo + 2 Spell Specialization)) + 1 Ioun Stone + 1 Robes of the Summit + 4 Prayer Beads = CL 37 on a single specialized spell. Without a specified spell, you're getting at-best CL 29/30, which is still impressive, but not the 32 CL you're desiring.
I am curious as to why a CL 32 is needed. The only thing I've thought of that would need Caster Levels is Battering Blast, since at CL 35, you can throw out 7 Blasts that deal 5D6+5 Force Damage onto a single target, and that can likewise be Quickened and further amplified with Metamagic feats like Intensify, Empower, Maximize, and so on, with little to no effort.
If it just has to be for the one spell:
20 - Level 20
4 [Item] Prayer Bead of Karma (all spells, 1/day for 10 minutes)
1 [Item] Orange Prism Ioun Stone (constant)
2 [Feat] Spell Specialization (Animate Object only)
1 [Feat] Varisian Tattoo (all Transmutation)
1 [Magic Trait] Transmuter of Korada (all Transmutation)
1 [Religion Trait] Shaper of Reality* (any Transmutation or Conjuration, 1/day)
2 [Class] Potent Magic (req. Arcanist or Exploiter Wizard)*Note that while these are both traits, they each provide an untyped bonus to caster level. There are many traits that boost caster level with an untyped bonus, Outlander is another good one (+1 CL to three spells on your class list).
This will get you to 32 with as generic a set of boosts as possible, so you aren't specializing super-hard into one utility spell.
I like this with just one problem; animate objects is not on the arcanist spell list, so you'd have to pull some other shenanigans to use Potent Magic. Instead, be a cleric with the Flotsam subdomain (of water). That makes animate objects a domain spell and you can take the Beacon of Faith [Faith Trait] to boost the CL by two once a day. You would have to take the Extra Traits feat at some point to do this.
I presume you are planning to get permanency cast on the ship as well, so I agree with Athaleon that you want to be as generic as possible so you aren't stuck with too many feats you don't need afterwards.
Whoops. Guess you need to be a Samsaran Wizard or Arcanist for the above, or use Additional Traits to get two more traits that boost caster level (with untyped bonuses) in place of Arcane Pool + Potent Magic.
I am curious as to why a CL 32 is needed.
OP wants to use Animate Objects on ships (which are Colossal and as such require CL 32).
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Ok I'll give my crack at this:
Base of +20
Spell focus/greater spell focus +2
Mage/varisian tatoo +1
Prayer beads +4
spell spec. +2
spell perf. +5 (*2 to spell focus, mage tatoo, and spell spec.)
The two traits listed by others a +1 and +1
Orange prism Ioun stone in a wayfinder 1d4-1, potentially a +3
20+2+1+4+2+5+3+1+1=39 CL
(I feel as though my math must be off somewhere in this, as i got higher much easier than others it seems.
Side note if we go half elf you could get a CL 43 for spell duration using this.
Just out of curiosity, is there anyway to get that puppy in the air...?
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Maybe it can flap its masts? Really fast?
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Ok I'll give my crack at this:
Base of +20
Spell focus/greater spell focus +2
Mage/varisian tatoo +1
Prayer beads +4
spell spec. +2
spell perf. +5 (*2 to spell focus, mage tatoo, and spell spec.)
The two traits listed by others a +1 and +1
Orange prism Ioun stone in a wayfinder 1d4-1, potentially a +3
20+2+1+4+2+5+3+1+1=39 CL
(I feel as though my math must be off somewhere in this, as i got higher much easier than others it seems.
Side note if we go half elf you could get a CL 43 for spell duration using this.
Spell Focus doesn't raise caster level, only DC's.
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Spell Focus doesn't raise caster level, only DC's.Ok I'll give my crack at this:
Base of +20
Spell focus/greater spell focus +2
Mage/varisian tatoo +1
Prayer beads +4
spell spec. +2
spell perf. +5 (*2 to spell focus, mage tatoo, and spell spec.)
The two traits listed by others a +1 and +1
Orange prism Ioun stone in a wayfinder 1d4-1, potentially a +3
20+2+1+4+2+5+3+1+1=39 CL
(I feel as though my math must be off somewhere in this, as i got higher much easier than others it seems.
Side note if we go half elf you could get a CL 43 for spell duration using this.
No, but it's generally a prerequisite for other things that do.
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No, but it's generally a prerequisite for other things that do.Spell Focus doesn't raise caster level, only DC's.Ok I'll give my crack at this:
Base of +20
Spell focus/greater spell focus +2
Mage/varisian tatoo +1
Prayer beads +4
spell spec. +2
spell perf. +5 (*2 to spell focus, mage tatoo, and spell spec.)
The two traits listed by others a +1 and +1
Orange prism Ioun stone in a wayfinder 1d4-1, potentially a +3
20+2+1+4+2+5+3+1+1=39 CL
(I feel as though my math must be off somewhere in this, as i got higher much easier than others it seems.
Side note if we go half elf you could get a CL 43 for spell duration using this.
But you're counting Save DC increases as Caster Levels.
They're not the same thing, nor are they added to the same things.
I don't care if they're required for other Caster Level increases, the point is not to treat them as if they grant you actual Caster Levels, because they don't, they never did, and they never will. It's not okay, man!
But even without them, I can make it higher.
Base 20 + 1 Allied Spellcaster + 2 Traits + 2 Arcanist Exploits + 4 Beads + 1 Mage's Tattoo + 1 Bloodmage Initiate + 2 Spell Specialization + 8 Spell Perfection + 1 Ioun Stone + 1 Robes of the Summit = CL 43.
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I know I've seen something like a dev statement that trait bonuses don't stack, but I don't think it was 100% official.
There is no text in trait bonuses or in the stacking rules that gives them a special exemption in the rules on bonus stacking.
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I know I've seen something like a dev statement that trait bonuses don't stack, but I don't think it was 100% official.
There is no text in trait bonuses or in the stacking rules that gives them a special exemption in the rules on bonus stacking.
When in doubt, always treat it as the worse option, until the devs nerf it even further.
This made me actually genuinely laugh*, even as it made me kind of tear up a bit**.
Well played, sir. Well played.
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No, but it's generally a prerequisite for other things that do.Spell Focus doesn't raise caster level, only DC's.Ok I'll give my crack at this:
Base of +20
Spell focus/greater spell focus +2
Mage/varisian tatoo +1
Prayer beads +4
spell spec. +2
spell perf. +5 (*2 to spell focus, mage tatoo, and spell spec.)
The two traits listed by others a +1 and +1
Orange prism Ioun stone in a wayfinder 1d4-1, potentially a +3
20+2+1+4+2+5+3+1+1=39 CL
(I feel as though my math must be off somewhere in this, as i got higher much easier than others it seems.
Side note if we go half elf you could get a CL 43 for spell duration using this.But you're counting Save DC increases as Caster Levels.
They're not the same thing, nor are they added to the same things.
I don't care if they're required for other Caster Level increases, the point is not to treat them as if they grant you actual Caster Levels, because they don't, they never did, and they never will. It's not okay, man!
...?
I'm not counting anything as anything--and I never said it was okay.
Death Knell's caster level bonus is untyped, right?
Is there anything preventing you from getting yourself a herd of bunnies and a wand of Death Knell, and going to town to boost up to CL 32?
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Sigh. I guess we're not going to convince you.
Note that I don't think it's a bad idea to prohibit traits from stacking. But as written, a trait without a bonus type is a untyped bonus.
Even with a FAQ stating they are categorizing traits under a new type of bonus, a "trait bonus". They included the RAI along with the new bonus type, there is no intention of traits stacking.
Given the context supplied by the well explained RAI, correct interpretation of the FAQ puts the trait bonuses as typed by default.
Unless you can provide specific text that a given trait is typed differently, or untyped, if reverts to the default "trait bonus" type created in the FAQ.
so ugh... the specific text, is the text of the trait specifying it's untyped. you know, with the words +# bonus. there's a specific rule written for each of the trains in the traits benefit description.
like i'm not joking, if a section says traits mostly give out trait bonuses, and a trait gives a dodge bonus? who are you going to believe? the trait is specific that overrides general, in the same way a trait can specify itself as untyped.
also, What FAQ are we talking about?>here< is the FAQ page if you need help finding it like I always do...
so ugh... the specific text, is the text of the trait specifying it's untyped. you know, with the words +# bonus. there's a specific rule written for each of the trains in the traits benefit description.
like i'm not joking, if a section says traits mostly give out trait bonuses, and a trait gives a dodge bonus? who are you going to believe? the trait is specific that overrides general, in the same way a trait can specify itself as untyped.
also, What FAQ are we talking about?>here< is the FAQ page if you need help finding it like I always do...
The vast majority of traits were written prior to the FAQ the established the "trait bonuses" as a specific type.
The FAQ was written in lieu of issuing several hundred errata across dozens of sources.
If a traits does specify a bonus type, that is a specific instance and takes precedence.
The FAQ in question has already been linked and quoted in-thread multiple times: here & here & here. Posting additional links is redundant at this point.
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Bandw2 is right; it says MANY traits have a trait bonus. Not ALL like you're treating the word "MANY" to mean.
It's also not a FAQ, it's a rule entry in a hardcover book, so of course it's going to be redundant, because there IS no FAQ in regards to Trait Bonuses, because there doesn't need to be. It's already clear as day that a Trait usually, but does not always, grant(s) a Trait Bonus.
This thread starts at caster level 124 and ends past 1,4 million caster level....
Have fun ;)
Enjoy!