No rules? What does that mean? Good question hypothetical person.
What I mean is exactly that. No crunch, no classes, no feats, nothing. Too often I see build, abilities, items and what not getting too much focus. I see people scrabbling to get every +1 they can get. I see question upon question about what books to use, 3pp or not, supplemental rules, and everything else. And yet, as expansive as Pathfinder is, sometimes there isn't enough to do what you want. You can't get the image in your head to work without stretching the rules. And then theirs the moments when all your hard work falls to pieces because of crap luck. A group beating on an enemy they should be running from because of good optimization and lucky rolls. Or the reverse and a weak enemy murdering the party because of some lucky crits.
Don't get me wrong, its still a lot of fun. Discovering new combinations to make the image in your head work on paper or seeing the DM get frustrated as his carefully thought out encounter doesn't go as envisioned. But it used to be that the DM would roll the dice and tell you how things turned out (Wish I had started in the era of AD&D). There was a lot more imagination and a lot less fact checking. So I think I want to give that a try and see what happens.
So hears the idea:
1) Characters - The only thing on the character sheet would be a backstory, personality, and description. This should be enough to glean what the character can do. If they were a soldier they should be comfortable with most weapons, hold their own in a fight and think tactically. If they are lightly armed and armored it is likely they rely on mobility and flexibility to dodge attacks and use the terrain to move around while aiming for vital points. If they are talkative and charismatic they should be able to gather information easily or talk their were out of fight. A lot of what a character can do will be left to the player's discretion but I'll give you a power level to aim for like 1st-3rd. Or if you just want to say what they can do that'd be fine too.
2) Combat - This will be a learning experience for sure but I think it will benefit the most. I really like it when people describe what their actions are before rolling and even more so when the DM tells you how well that worked. I will be doing that but without the stats behind it. This opens up more opportunities for different tactics, different styles, and different attacks. Each round you will say what you intend to do and roll a d20. This roll is like a luck/effectiveness factor. It is not an absolute measure but I will compare it to the enemies rolls to dictate the flow of combat. High rolls will mean things will go in your favor while low ones will mean difficult times. The strength of the enemy will also factor in. Tough ones will take longer to beat and have more chances for things to turn around while weak ones could be ended in a single action. Never assume you will win though. I will force you to retreat if things are going poorly long enough.
"John charges the center goblin, shield leading the way, intending to bowl him over while he works on the others. He shifts the shield to block his left flank while his sword swipes at the one on his right to end hoping to end him quickly."
I'll counter with: "The right goblin sees the charge coming and cries out a warning in its guttural language. But its warning merely distracts the other two from what is happening. They turn to look at their companion and miss the large human hurtling their way. The middle goblin is launched several feet as the shield crashes into it. The left one swings feebly at the humans flank but his shield appears and in the way. The right one manages not only to dodge the decapitating swing but also stabs his rusty dagger in the humans thigh."
Then John would go again. Two of the goblins rolled lower but as a group, they average better with a really nice roll on the right goblin. So none of them are dead and John has been hit. One human of about level 1 is going to have a tough fight against three goblins. So things are going in their favor.
But again, the rolls are not absolute. If John does something different that sounds a lot cooler then I may just give it to him.
3) Items - This one will be tricky and I imagine they aren't going to play a big part except for story items. Sorry about that. But again, it will be up to player discretion mostly, to decide if they are fully equipped. If you are heading into the wilderness, better tell me you are going to a general goods story to load up on camping gear. I think I'll use Automatic Bonus Progression and Wealth By Level as a guide for the magical gear your likely to have. Or if you want to make up your own stuff, go for it, just keep the power level of your characters in mind. This one will have to be played by ear.
4) Leveling - At certain points I will up the power level of the group as a whole. I'll move the range higher to like 3rd - 5th level. You'll then use that as a basis for what you are capable of and how others see you. Hopefully this will seem more subtle than a magical jump.
The idea is for you to create a character you wouldn't normally be able to in pathfinder or play a favorite class without the rules getting in the way. Might even use the classes as a basis for your description. "He's a sword and board fighter". "She's a magus but more focus on transferring different elements through the blade". I imagine I'd start with a module to test how things go and move to an AP if things work out.
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Hello again, DM Ancient.
This mean there's no chance of you getting your Secrets of Dragons campagin going again? =)
Of note, if you're looking for systems that accomodate a "Rules lite" philosophy, you could try:
1) Fate. You all but do make a character and then tell the DM what your things mean.
2) Amber. Indeed, this might be as close to what you want as can be.
3) Dungeon World. A bit more rules, some classes have defined roles, but some other classes, like the Mage, you pretty much tell the DM what you're doing, then roll 2d6 and say how well it works.
4) I'm gonna go ahead and give Savage Worlds an honorable mention. Far from the diceless chaos of Amber, but I think it sits in a happy middle ground between PFS and Amber. Every character is gonna be low-powered no matter how much you min-max, and the rules are sparse enough to accommodate most play styles.
I just want to chime in and second everything Atlas2112 said, having looked into or played in everything he mentioned but Dungeon World.
Amber is indeed virtually diceless! However, it is specifically designed for one "universe", and the PC's tend to be pretty powerful at the beginning.
But, I have settled on Savage Worlds as my system-of-choice - it has just enough rules to provide structure, and without so many as to stifle player or GM creativity (indeed, the system *needs* player and GM creativity in order to work!). The PC's are classless. And while there's maybe only 50 spells in the magic system, they represent many more thru "trappings" - for example, the Bolt spell can be fireballs, lightning, a magical missile, a mental attack, etc.
Interested in playing.
So all flavor and zero crunch? Very cool!
So, I've always been a fan of characters that transcend their mortal bonds through the use of machinery (magical or otherwise) pretty much exactly like a Machinesmith and its entailed prestige class Transmechanical Ascendant.
Lemme know if this is a playable option flavor-wise and I'll draw up a backstory, personality, description. All vague enough to fit anywhere and specific enough for some roleplaying fun.
Ooh, shiny ... Me gusta!
Sorry Atlas. Homebrew is just too intensive for me. I have the beginning, end and a lot of the in-between but I'd never be able to do it the justice the version in my head deserves. Also, Amber sounds terrible. I have never played but just skimming the wiki, it does not look fun. The auction system for abilities looks like you might not even be able to make the character you want and the ability comparison looks like you'll know the outcome of every battle before hand. Where's the fun in that?
Grimshaad described my idea the best I think. All fluff no crunch. Almost like a story told round-robin style. Also, still just an interest check.
So you're aiming at people who understand the Pathfinder rules, and are appreciative of them as a basic guideline for power levels, but don't want to actually use the crunchy bits other than as just that: a potential resource to turn for general power levels? Does that sound about right? If so, count me interested. I like your combat mechanics, in that it does provide a realistic system to gauge general effectiveness, but is not aimed at any target number. Just roll, and hope for high numbers.
I'll definitely try to get a backstory, personality, description put up here by the end of the business day today. As far as races and classes go, since we are using the Pathfinder system as a backdrop and guideline, are you open to pretty much anything Pathfinder? Or should we stick to a certain genre or subset of the rules as our pattern?
Not sure on my time, but consider me interested.
It sounds like an interested way to re-focus the game, plus I certainly like the idea of being able to play a character concept as I imagine it rather than trying shoehorn it into existing classes!
Oh, and as an aside, take it from someone who started playing even before the AD&D era, no one I knew played "only the GM rolls", and there were plenty of rules debates even back then. Yes, 3.x's shift to a rule for everything mentality certainly amped it up, but the "good ol' days" weren't necessarily all that different from now. Focusing more on fluff or crunch is more a factor of the group than the rules, in my experience at least. :)
I'll throw interest in. I like some structure (I've RP'd online without rules for years and it usually goes haywire with someone assuming they have more power than they do).
That said, I'm totally on board with no crunch but maybe have an additional section that plainly lays out what your character's strengths and weaknesses are?
Just so the DM and the character are being perfectly transparent with one another and the player can't pull out "I lift a truck" mid-game and the DM is like "whoa, I knew you were a powerlifter but wat".
Ah, free-form RPing. I'm rather fond of it... but generally only with a single other person at a time, someone I know well. I'll be curious to see how this turns out, though I don't think I'll play myself.
I also am intrigued by this idea. For a PbP storytelling game has anyone looked at Storium? It sounds like that might be an interest for you.
MendedWall12: All of that essentially.
Scaffold Kane: That is an obvious concern but one I hope can be mitigated by having a target power level based on pathfinder rules. This link I found shows that skill checks can be quite accurate compared to real life.
Halek: Anything you can fit into a pathfinder universe that would be af of the power level established.
Almonihah: Yeah, I did it once with a friend of mine but with our own Naruto ninja squad. Worked out well for a while until facebook deleted our message string. Lost the whole thing.
Calex: ??? I need to Google some things.
Ken Marable: I started with 5e and worked back to 3.5 then over to pathfinder. I got the info from friends who could very well be wrong. I did know one older guy who played that way with his children.
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Are we moving past just interest check at this point? I'd rather not put energy into a background and concept if it's still just an idea. DM Ancient, if you feel you have enough interest to proceed, please let us know, and I will do my best to put together a solid character in the next few days.
Thanks!
Are we moving past just interest check at this point? I'd rather not put energy into a background and concept if it's still just an idea. DM Ancient, if you feel you have enough interest to proceed, please let us know, and I will do my best to put together a solid character in the next few days.
Thanks!
Indeed!
Well, I was in two recruitments when I had this thought and recently got into one of those games. It looks like I'll get in the other too. So while I see that there is interest at least, I won't be able to start an experiment at this time. I think two other games of mine are close to wrapping up. If that is the case I will get back to you all.
Thanks.