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The original poster has a noble intention. It's the execution which may well fall flat however. And it's a problem which can easily be solved by the GM asking "How do you help?" An intimidating display or glare could be a valid Aid Another for intimidation checks. Depending on the situation, getting another round of ale or another glass of wine could be valid as well. Feeling along the walls could be an acceptable Aid Another when searching for a secret passage. Or maybe even simply keeping quiet could be a potential Aid Another, depending on situation.
As such, as the GM you should ask the player to briefly describe how they help. It'll encourage more role playing instead of roll playing, and enrich your session.
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The original poster has a noble intention. It's the execution which may well fall flat however. And it's a problem which can easily be solved by the GM asking "How do you help?" An intimidating display or glare could be a valid Aid Another for intimidation checks. Depending on the situation, getting another round of ale or another glass of wine could be valid as well. Feeling along the walls could be an acceptable Aid Another when searching for a secret passage. Or maybe even simply keeping quiet could be a potential Aid Another, depending on situation.
As such, as the GM you should ask the player to briefly describe how they help. It'll encourage more role playing instead of roll playing, and enrich your session.
The OP actually addresses two points, the one you describe above, and another. Regarding your point, yes, "how do you help?" can address the issue.
The other point, which I think is fair, is that PFS scenarios don't adjust the DC of skill checks to account for an increase in players. They adjust CR for some encounters, but DCs are not adjusted to account for the greater potential to pass skill checks.
And the OP was using both as examples to seek a more offical ruling on how to handle Aid Another in PFS games.
Did I get that right, Pat?
(Pat is the OP)
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The other point, which I think is fair, is that PFS scenarios don't adjust the DC of skill checks to account for an increase in players. They adjust CR for some encounters, but DCs are not adjusted to account for the greater potential to pass skill checks.
There are scenarios that adjust skill DCs as part of the four player adjustment.
I don't know how widespread it is, but I have seen it.
Sun Orchid Scheme
The Consortium Compact
I expect there are more, those are just the ones I could quickly verify.
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The other point, which I think is fair, is that PFS scenarios don't adjust the DC of skill checks to account for an increase in players. They adjust CR for some encounters, but DCs are not adjusted to account for the greater potential to pass skill checks.There are scenarios that adjust skill DCs as part of the four player adjustment.
I don't know how widespread it is, but I have seen it.
** spoiler omitted **
I expect there are more, those are just the ones I could quickly verify.
There are quite a few more. These adjustments are typically a -2 DC for everyone (equivalent to one Aid that succeeds and one that fails) and/or reducing the total amount of successful rolls needed.
However, I suspect that there's no true consistency in whether scenario DCs are built with Aid in mind; some probably are, and some aren't. Some adjust gracefully for fewer players, others don't.
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Aid Another isn't, on it's own, a bad thing. What I think should be encouraged is people roleplaying their aid another attempt. Even if it's just stating "I keep quiet so as not to annoy the guard", it should be encouraged for players to describe how they aid another. Not always needed or practical. After all, there's only so many ways you can Aid Another in moving something heavy. But in social situations it should be encouraged.
But that's just my opinion.
Aid Another isn't, on it's own, a bad thing. What I think should be encouraged is people roleplaying their aid another attempt. Even if it's just stating "I keep quiet so as not to annoy the guard", it should be encouraged for players to describe how they aid another. Not always needed or practical. After all, there's only so many ways you can Aid Another in moving something heavy. But in social situations it should be encouraged.
But that's just my opinion.
My GM has a house rule. You RP and try to help? You can't not hurt the check.
You just say "I roll to aid-another". Your roll can hinder if you roll bad enough.
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When this thread started, it was a GM commenting about an interaction with PFS player characters and things that arose from said interaction.
Now this discussion thread is in RPG General discussion, which changes the dynamic from [PFS] rules to 'Any ol' House Rule will do'.
Was that intentional?
When this thread started, it was a GM commenting about an interaction with PFS player characters and things that arose from said interaction.Now this discussion thread is in RPG General discussion, which changes the dynamic from [PFS] rules to 'Any ol' House Rule will do'.
Was that intentional?
Very likely. The way that RAW is being applied is one that specifically calls for DM judgement. PFS being very rules-strict, this is "important".
Since DM judgement is the topic, by definition the discussion has to expand to explore the judgements that various DMs can and do apply in this sort of circumstance. << Pun intended.
The original poster clearly has a bias. They don't like Aid Another for social skills. That bias may be reasonable, or it may not. It bears being explored, and since this isn't really a discussion that directly involves parsing rules text, it's got to morph into less PFS-specific areas.
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When this thread started, it was a GM commenting about an interaction with PFS player characters and things that arose from said interaction.Now this discussion thread is in RPG General discussion, which changes the dynamic from [PFS] rules to 'Any ol' House Rule will do'.
Was that intentional?
Very likely. The way that RAW is being applied is one that specifically calls for DM judgement. PFS being very rules-strict, this is "important".
Since DM judgement is the topic, by definition the discussion has to expand to explore the judgements that various DMs can and do apply in this sort of circumstance. << Pun intended.
The original poster clearly has a bias. They don't like Aid Another for social skills. That bias may be reasonable, or it may not. It bears being explored, and since this isn't really a discussion that directly involves parsing rules text, it's got to morph into less PFS-specific areas.
Respectfully, I disagree. The game meta between a home game and PFS is significantly different and, while the rules are typically consistent on this point, this really was a PFS-specific issue. Home games typically have a very different dynamic on this front and it's not comparable.
Respectfully, I disagree. The game meta between a home game and PFS is significantly different and, while the rules are typically consistent on this point, this really was a PFS-specific issue. Home games typically have a very different dynamic on this front and it's not comparable.
Given that the topic of the thread is OP's houserule isn't it, by definition, beyond the scope of PFS?
Does that interfere with the tenet of "Cooperate"?When the Wis 07 Paladin attempts to Aid the Rogue's Perception, do you apply a –2 to the Rogue for a botched roll by the Paladin?Yes. The paladin wanted to help but ended up distracting the rogue instead of helping himNope. Sometimes people make mistakes (in PF they roll below the required DC), it's something implicit to the system and I don't see any reasons to change it.
You may very well want to help but you might fail to do so and sometimes in your eagernes (or incompetence or by sheer misfortune or whatever) to help you might even hinder or cause your friends to fail.
To interfere with "cooperate" the player would need to fail on purpose.
Have you ever been cooking a big Sunday brunch for a bunch of people, and everyone feels obligated to help, but two of the people there have absolutely no idea how to cook and they keep getting in the way and actually making things worse or outright ruining dishes by putting in a Tbsp of salt instead of a tsp?
Yeah, this is legitimate.
Plus, the OP stated the risks BEFORE the rolls were made. I, for one, actually like the idea of imposing a little penalty for dumping your Charisma.
Given that the topic of the thread is OP's houserule isn't it, by definition, beyond the scope of PFS?
There's a lot of variation on how to handle this.
Most groups seem to have their own way of doing thing that are a legalish way but not neccesarily THE legal way.
The penalty is being worse at social checks, which already happens. You're less likely to succeed on the aid check and less likely to succeed at independent checks if you have to make them.
Independant checks are very rare (but they do happen) but if you're not making it with a -2 you're probably not making it with a +1 either.
Honestly, I don't see a justification for penalizing people in the game as written... However, I'm not opposed to the concept.
I do think it is a LITTLE metagamey for everyone at the table to be 'aid another' on rolls at all time. AND it's a little boring. With a 5 person party, that can be up to a +8 to any given roll which ideally the main player has points already in...
I often thought that giving a +2 to succeed at helping should warrant a -2 for failing to help. I call it the Gilligan syndrome. It can be useful to have someone hold the ladder and hand you a hammer... but there's always the possibility that he'll sink the raft too...
Still, this kind of swings could be ugly for a game and turn tough challenges into impossible ones. A house rule I considered, but haven't fought to get implemented.
Honestly, I don't see a justification for penalizing people in the game as written... However, I'm not opposed to the concept.
There's two arguments for it
Failing a diplomacy check drops the subjects attitude. You ARE trying a diplomacy check.
There is the DM's miscellaneous +/- 2 modifier
I don't do it myself unless the scenario calls for or hints at it but it is both rules legal and makes a fair bit of sense. The guy picking his nose and failing a dc 5 diplomacy is pretty legitimate as a hindrance to your roll.