Spell Full Pouch


Rules Questions

The Exchange

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spell Full Pouch:

School: transmutation
Level: alchemist 2, bard 2, druid 2, inquisitor 3, occultist 3, ranger 3, sorcerer/wizard 2
Casting Time: 1 swift action
Components: V, S, M (alchemical reagents or herbs worth 1 gp)
Range: touch
Targets: 1 object touched
Duration: instantaneous
Saving Throw: Fortitude negates (object)
Spell Resistance: no
You cast this spell as you draw out a consumable alchemical item to use. The object must be an alchemical item, but not a dose of disease, a poison, a magic potion, or another type of consumable item. The item divides itself into two nearly identical copies and the newly separated one is delivered into your hand. The new item functions as the original in all ways except the copied item suffers a slight reduction in quality. Saves against the new alchemical item's affects use the original item's save DC or the save DC of this spell, whichever is higher.

Ok,... How does this spell work? Am I missing something here? Duration is instantaneous, so it creates a duplicate of an Alchemical item. Often with a better save.

So... Say Al the Alchemist wants to use a 2nd level extract of full pouch to create an extra tanglefoot bag. He reaching for his existing 'bag and ... Casts this extract? Creating a copy which he then puts on the table in front of him. Does he have two tanglefoot bags? One with a different DC?

Can he do this again? And again (if he has the 2nd level extracts to do this)? Until he has a dozen tanglefoot bags on the table?

Shadow Lodge

You know what, I think so, unless I'm missing something as well. Damn..1 gp and there ya go. And all for a swift action.


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Pathfinder Companion, LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Note that this is one of several cases in which a spell is said to be on the alchemist list, but an alchemist can't actually use it as an extract due to the target being an object touched rather than a creature.

It's on the list so that they can use wands of it without issue.

Other than that, yes, they can duplicate alchemical items.


Considering the contradiction of the last two sentences, I suspect a typo.

The Exchange

so... this isn't feeling right

a 3nd level wizard (transmuter) can out produce an Alchemist?

This spell would allow a wizard to produce Thunderstones with his 2nd level spell DCs (likely to be better than DC15). Or Alchemist Fires (DC 15 again), or Tanglefoot bags (DC 15) or ...so much stuff.


With a duration of Instantaneous, that has to mean the, "duplicating," part of the spell.

I do not see any limitations on how long the duplicate hangs around.

Or is that one of the points questioning this spell to begin with?

I have a 3rd level Druid that would LOVE this spell.


Splatbooks sometimes have poorly thought out or unbalanced spells, and Arcane Anthology had (to me) mostly pretty mediocre or underwhelming spells, so this looks like it fits a pattern and somewhat redeems that book.


FractalLaw wrote:
Note that this is one of several cases in which a spell is said to be on the alchemist list, but an alchemist can't actually use it as an extract due to the target being an object touched rather than a creature.

Can you source this rule?

GinoA wrote:
Considering the contradiction of the last two sentences, I suspect a typo.

If I had to guess that was supposed to be a line about making the items unsellable, since most other effects like that have a clause about that.


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This spell is whole loads of broken RAW. Note that, by RAW, there are no actual items that are eligible to be duplicated, since "consumable alchemical item" (the allowed items) are a subset of "consumable items" which are explicitly prohibited. RAW, any item you could duplicate would be a permanent copy, but RAI the first indicates that the duplicates are temporary, "draw out a consumable alchemical item to use." Since generally you can draw an item without using it, this leads to permanent duplicates, but I would guess the intent is closer to an alchemical version of abundant ammunition or blood money.


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Calth wrote:
This spell is whole loads of broken RAW. Note that, by RAW, there are no actual items that are eligible to be duplicated, since "consumable alchemical item" (the allowed items) are a subset of "consumable items" which are explicitly prohibited.

I think it's pretty beyond obvious that 'other consumables' refers to consumables that aren't alchemical, because the sentence before explicitly allows alchemical consumable items. So they therefore cannot be 'other'. Trying to read it as self disqualifying seems a bit silly.

Quote:
RAW, any item you could duplicate would be a permanent copy, but RAI the first indicates that the duplicates are temporary

RAW says it's an instantaneous effect and there's nothing even implying anything else in the rest of the text, so I'm not seeing any way to divine a RAI that disagrees.


I think there's a reasonable solution to this oddity:
The Alchemist drinks the extract as soon as he prepares it, and discharges the spell as a swift action as part of grabbing the object any time within the same day. That, or you could just override the swift with a standard, making it obviously less useful mid-combat, but I have no clue whatsoever why anyone would want to use this mid-combat anyway when they would be duplicating their items as soon as possible in the day. Maybe for heavy items?

Quote:
RAW says it's an instantaneous effect and there's nothing even implying anything else in the rest of the text, so I'm not seeing any way to divine a RAI that disagrees.

Like I pointed out, the fact that it's a swift action would imply that it would have some sort of time limit to use, since otherwise it wouldn't matter at all if the spell had a 10 minute cast time, because it'd just be done at the start of the day. And not just any time limit (such as 24 hours or hr/lvl), but a short one, such as 10 minute to 1 round per level. Another argument is that I don't think there's any spell effects in the game that create permanent objects that use a spell's DC (not counting permanency), but maybe I'm wrong.

Like Clath already pointed out, I too have an issue with the statements "cast this spell as you draw out a consumable alchemical item", "[n]or another type of consumable item" in discord. I suppose what swoosh said is a good explanation though. I never thought of specifically that, but that's generally what I thought that it meant to say, like "anything else along those lines".

Quite a dumbo whoever wrote and edited(reviewed) this. There's even a spelling error saying "affect" instead of "effect". That said, I feel like the more we pick on this spell, ask for clarification, and discuss it, the more I feel like it will just be changed to 1 round per level non-alchemist spell, which I don't think most of us want to happen.


I believe the other consumables means like wondrous item elixers. They were trying to limit abuse, but they didn't word it right.


Starbuck_II wrote:
I believe the other consumables means like wondrous item elixers. They were trying to limit abuse, but they didn't word it right.

I have no doubt that's what they meant. I was just pointing out that RAW arguments for the spell are invalid on their face, as if you actually use the RAW, it doesn't work period. So that leaves trying to figure out the RAI, and the whole line about casting as you draw an item to use is fairly clear the intent is for the item to be used directly after the spell is cast. The RAW doesn't specify that, but, as stated earlier, RAW also means the spell cant create anything.


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I read the spell as being useful for making a second Tanglefoot Bag, or second dose of Brewed Reek, or a second Slow Burn Arrow, etc.

Each of those (and more) are alchemical items, but not a dose of disease, a poison, a magic potion, or another type of consumable item.

That is how I envision this.


Calth wrote:
Starbuck_II wrote:
I believe the other consumables means like wondrous item elixers. They were trying to limit abuse, but they didn't word it right.
I have no doubt that's what they meant. I was just pointing out that RAW arguments for the spell are invalid on their face, as if you actually use the RAW, it doesn't work period. So that leaves trying to figure out the RAI, and the whole line about casting as you draw an item to use is fairly clear the intent is for the item to be used directly after the spell is cast. The RAW doesn't specify that, but, as stated earlier, RAW also means the spell cant create anything.

Let's try reading the spell.

The object must be an alchemical item, but not a dose of disease, a poison, a magic potion, or another type of consumable item.

See that "another" there. Ya, that word is kind of important.

So RAW is it duplicates any alchemical item. Which can be consumable alchemical items. It just can't be *ANOTHER* type of consumamble item. Which by definition means it *CAN* be a consumable alchemical item. See that wasn't so hard.

RAW is very clear here. So to actually answer your questions OP:

Yes, it creates a permanent new alchemical item with a better save.

Alchemist would have to use a wand of it. Yes, the original and the copy would have a different DC.

Yes, you can have dozens of better DC tanglefoot bags if you have the wand charges/spell slots to burn. Note that 1 GP falls under Eschew Materials (or better yet False Focus), which means completely free infinite superior DC alchemical items for casters with those feats, at the low cost of initially investing in one copy of a given alchemical item.


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Pathfinder Companion, LO Special Edition, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
swoosh wrote:
FractalLaw wrote:
Note that this is one of several cases in which a spell is said to be on the alchemist list, but an alchemist can't actually use it as an extract due to the target being an object touched rather than a creature.
Can you source this rule?
Advanced Player's Guide, page 27 wrote:
An extract is “cast” by drinking it, as if imbibing a potion—the effects of an extract exactly duplicate the spell upon which its formula is based, save that the spell always affects only the drinking alchemist.

Alchemist extracts always affects only the the Alchemist. The spell Full Pouch has a target of object touched with a further restriction that the target touched must be an alchemical item.

For the purposes of targeting, an Alchemist is neither an object nor an alchemical item and is therefore not a valid target for the spell.

Alchemists can, however, use Spell-Trigger items if the spell is on the Alchemist spell list, so they can use wands of Full Pouch or other similar spells.


Quick necro: is a "consumable" item something that is used up, or does it have to be a thing you digest?


VRMH wrote:
Quick necro: is a "consumable" item something that is used up, or does it have to be a thing you digest?

It is any one-use item. Oils and scrolls are also counted as consumables.


Can it apply to an Alchemical Simulacrum pulled from a bag of holding?

How about this use during downtime?
1) Buy a sample of Blightburn Paste for 5,000 gp.
2) Cast spell.
3) ???
4) Profit.

/cevah


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Cevah wrote:

Can it apply to an Alchemical Simulacrum pulled from a bag of holding?

How about this use during downtime?
1) Buy a sample of Blightburn Paste for 5,000 gp.
2) Cast spell.
3) ???
4) Profit.

/cevah

Not sure I would call a simulacrum a consumable, also not sure how big the "blightburn paste" market is so... while it might cost that much you still need someone who wants to buy it.

This spell is obviously broken for running your own alchemist shop, but I always took "slight reduction in quality" to mean it looks like a cheap knock off and no one of good standing is gonna buy it (obviously you can get someone to buy it, but you can get someone to buy a horse from the mount spell with some roleplaying, and walk away happy knowing it's disappearing in a few hours.)

Other money tricks include, False Focus + Bless Water (doable on at least 1 arcanist archetype) or getting a job you lazy wizard! If you can pay NPC's to cast spells, you can charge those prices to cast your spells! or do them for cheaper and undercut those snobby wizard guilds (you are sure to soon meet the union rep and go in to all out social war with the wizards though).


Lady Melo wrote:
Cevah wrote:

Can it apply to an Alchemical Simulacrum pulled from a bag of holding?

How about this use during downtime?
1) Buy a sample of Blightburn Paste for 5,000 gp.
2) Cast spell.
3) ???
4) Profit.

/cevah

Not sure I would call a simulacrum a consumable, also not sure how big the "blightburn paste" market is so... while it might cost that much you still need someone who wants to buy it.

If I am an evil BBEG, with an AS of a minion in the bag, using a 2nd level spell for a free duplicate AS I can sic on the good guys is certainly a consumable disposable minion. :-)

The paste is just the most concentrated version. Alchemical Fire at 20 gp also works, since the spell is free for the caster.

Lady Melo wrote:

This spell is obviously broken for running your own alchemist shop, but I always took "slight reduction in quality" to mean it looks like a cheap knock off and no one of good standing is gonna buy it (obviously you can get someone to buy it, but you can get someone to buy a horse from the mount spell with some roleplaying, and walk away happy knowing it's disappearing in a few hours.)

Other money tricks include, False Focus + Bless Water (doable on at least 1 arcanist archetype) or getting a job you lazy wizard! If you can pay NPC's to cast spells, you can charge those prices to cast your spells! or do them for cheaper and undercut those snobby wizard guilds (you are sure to soon meet the union rep and go in to all out social war with the wizards though).

That "slight reduction in quality" was not given any game mechanic in the spell. I might say that the DC drops by one or the damage or whatever. A drop in the DC is covered by the spell's replacement of DC mechanic. Other depredations, however, are not so easily overcome. Still, Keep the copy and sell the degraded original for say 10% off and you still profit.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

Can it apply to an Alchemical Simulacrum pulled from a bag of holding?

How about this use during downtime?
1) Buy a sample of Blightburn Paste for 5,000 gp.
2) Cast spell.
3) ???
4) Profit.

/cevah

Well, there's the effects of touching the paste to deal with, and the sickness.

But personally, I'd love to do this as a Blight Druid, grab the Radiation subdomain, and some viridium weapons and you're off to the races!


Personally I have an eye on the Homunculus Clay, especially when combined with a sip of Semblance Transfusion: a free Mini-Me!

Grand Lodge

Cevah wrote:
A drop in the DC is covered by the spell's replacement of DC mechanic
Quote:
Saves against the new alchemical item’s affects use the original item’s save DC or the save DC of this spell, whichever is higher.

Is it? It looks to me like it's the exact opposite and the DC can only go up.


It's pretty clear to me that "as you draw a consumable alchemical item to use" means that the character is drawing the item and they intend to throw it at someone or to otherwise consume it.

The duplicate is thrown/consumed instead, therefore no hoarding is possible.

This is still a pretty good spell, depending on the price of alchemical items you can just keep in your pouch forever, duplicating them... but hey, a second level spell that duplicates a 2d6 firework with an expensive focus isn't that OP.


Full Pouch

The spell description does have minor issues. The last two lines are generally contradictory. The first line limits the duplicates to alchemical items which are non-magical.
I'd agree that the intent is for immediate use, but there is some waffle room in there from a theory stance.
I believe the last line is there for items with high DCs compared to minimal caster ability scores and to future proof the spell.

I'd suggest home game GM's put a time limit of CstrLvl hour to use the duplicated item and a maximum 300gp price limit (price of 2nd lvl potion).

In PFS these items do not carry over from scenario to scenario and caster's could only sell them for 0.5gp(0gp if False Focus is used) no matter what they duplicate.

Shadow Lodge

All right, here's my Full Pouch question: Can you use it with Itching Powder? It's in the 'Alchemical Weapons' category, not the 'Poison' category, so it should be good. But it's also got a line of "This is a poison effect".


thistledown wrote:
All right, here's my Full Pouch question: Can you use it with Itching Powder? It's in the 'Alchemical Weapons' category, not the 'Poison' category, so it should be good. But it's also got a line of "This is a poison effect".

It's a poison effect but it's categorized as an alechemical item, not a poison; yes, you can use it.

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