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This has happened to me in our own lodge. There are usually 2 games a month I can make. It has happened, on more than one occasion, that there are no non-core games that day that I can play... And at times they already have GMs or I've already GM'd them.I'm confused, how does having people sign up and commit in advance result with people not showing up?To minimize Geek Sodoku, we post each month's offering ahead of time on Warhorn.net. That way everyone knows what is offered and when.Which results in people not showing up, which is a HUGE problem when you have a small group.
So you play/GM CORE, right?
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Is there no communication? No situational awareness?Sometimes there is. Sometime there isn't.
I think this may be the heart of the problem.
Our lodge isn't big by any means, but we've managed to salvage it from the brink of extinction (1 table of 3 players on gamedays for awhile) by communication and careful planning.
Warhorn and email addresses. Get a discussion with your players. Have them figure out what they can play.
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If you play Core you don't get to use any of your additional resources (except those unlocked by chronicle access). But you still get to play.
If you don't play Core, then you don't get to use any of your additional resources, and also don't get to play.
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What if there was a boon that players could earn, similar to Expanded Narrative for GMs, that would allow some limited replay?
Don't misunderstand - I'm fine with the limited replay we allow right now but I might support something like that. Or make it a high target reward on the Faction Journal Cards.
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My local VC does try to work with us who have played most everything. But that only goes so far. Still, he is pretty amazing.
And one good thing has come out of me frequently not being able to play unless I run... I now play LOTS more 3.5 again, and some of us are looking at Runequest as well.
(Edit: there ARE newer offerings, too; a handful of our experienced players were playing Savage Worlds last weekend. But I generally won't recommend PFS anymore to friends with whom I'd like to play unless I want to GM for them... because I cannot play with them.)
(Second edit: I am not actually arguing for replay. I know it won't happen. I am just pointing out that we are well past the stage of "people may run out and leave..." They already have.)
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So I like to remind myself in threads that get heated that we all, ultimately, want what is best for the campaign. We're just approaching that goal from different perspectives.
That said, here are my thoughts as a year 5 participant in PFS.
1. We have more replay options now than we ever have. We might need more, we might not, but the fact remains that as of right now there is more play opportunity than ever in the history of PFS. There are about 250 legal PFS scenarios, in addition to dozens of modules and APs that give credit. This thread comes up often, but things are better now than ever before for replays. So the issue is far more mild than it was when I saw threads like this 4, 3, or 2 years ago.
2. There are options like Core, online, GM, available in most cases. If such options are unavailable in your area, be the change that makes them possible. Just because you aren't a VO doesn't mean you can't organize tables. Most VOs (if not all) started out organizing things without any direct support from Paizo.
3. In a global campaign you will not be able to please everyone. You just can't. Personally, I want some options to be made legal (Ferocious Tenacity, I'm looking at you!), but I understand that they won't be. Some things are restricted for a variety of well explored reasons, and the replay issue is one of them.
I am also tentative in believing the need for more replays really exists, given the plethora of options available for play. As a participant that can get PFS credit upwards of a dozen times a month, I still have some scenarios I can get credit for--as a GM and a player. I am sorry that folks are getting their fun revoked by being unable to replay more, but in the grand scheme of it all it is a very minor issue that I don't believe effects a noticeable percentage of PFS participants (we have over 175k participants now, for the record).
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So I like to remind myself in threads that get heated that we all, ultimately, want what is best for the campaign. We're just approaching that goal from different perspectives.
Straight-up.
That said, here are my thoughts as a year 5 participant in PFS.1. We have more replay options now than we ever have. We might need more, we might not, but the fact remains that as of right now there is more play opportunity than ever in the history of PFS. There are about 250 legal PFS scenarios, in addition to dozens of modules and APs that give credit. This thread comes up often, but things are better now than ever before for replays. So the issue is far more mild than it was when I saw threads like this 4, 3, or 2 years ago.
This thread in particular is a different 'take' on the idea of replay, so it is getting insightful thoughts on it, for the most part.
2. There are options like Core, online, GM, available in most cases. If such options are unavailable in your area, be the change that makes them possible. Just because you aren't a VO doesn't mean you can't organize tables. Most VOs (if not all) started out organizing things without any direct support from Paizo.
There are also RL situations like *having a job* *going to school* *serving in the defense of a given nation-state*, etc.
CORE is NOT available in most cases in this area (right outside of Chicago).
One cannot be the 'change that makes them possible' if one works 40+ hours a week PLUS has other duties or responsibilities outside of said work. There ARE NOT ENOUGH HOURS in the WEEK.
Those who can GM with those sort of considerations are AMAZING. Those who cannot shouldn't be told 'Oh, well, just GM a bit, it'll all be better'. It's insulting, demeaning, and for those who really WANT to GM but Just Do. Not. Have. The. Time. to prep a scenario properly it drives folks who want to be involved and help away from the campaign because of the elitist impression it gives.
Would it be nice to see more GMs? Yes. At the expense of quality and enjoyment of the campaign material? No.
3. In a global campaign you will not be able to please everyone. You just can't. Personally, I want some options to be made legal (Ferocious Tenacity, I'm looking at you!), but I understand that they won't be. Some things are restricted for a variety of well explored reasons, and the replay issue is one of them.
I am also tentative in believing the need for more replays really exists, given the plethora of options available for play. As a participant that can get PFS credit upwards of a dozen times a month, I still have some scenarios I can get credit for--as a GM and a player. I am sorry that folks are getting their fun revoked by being unable to replay more, but in the grand scheme of it all it is a very minor issue that I don't believe effects a noticeable percentage of PFS participants (we have over 175k participants now, for the record).
It is mentioned above that there's a possibility of getting upwards of a dozen PFS credits+ per month...
That is atypical of my PFS experience. My experience has been *at most* a dozen every six months or so, with the numbers boosted unnaturally by PbP and online venues.
Why the commentary, then?
Because not everyone has a 'good' play schedule, environment, transportation, or people to rely on.
And sometimes, when one gets four people together to play (or more) suddenly the suddoku says "Bzzzzzt. Wrong answer, recalculate variables"
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What if there was a boon that players could earn, similar to Expanded Narrative for GMs, that would allow some limited replay?
Don't misunderstand - I'm fine with the limited replay we allow right now but I might support something like that. Or make it a high target reward on the Faction Journal Cards.
A lot of the replay requests are driven by small lodge problems. Looking at it from that angle, small lodges might have the following problems with existing replay options:
1. Nobody/too few people like Core to make Core viable in a lodge. (Alternative: lodge is too small to run parallel Core and PFS games)2. Too few games happen to allow GMs to get stars quickly (related: stars don't recharge by themselves)
3. Expanded Narrative is a convention boon and small lodges may not have a convention, nor might they have the people to run a convention--so no Expanded Narrative for those players
4. Expanded Narrative is a GM boon and not everyone can or wants to GM
5. Expanded Narrative requires 19 (if I am remembering correctly) games GMed in a season in order to provide 5 replays? That's only a game and a half a month, on average, but two of those might constitute the entirety of games GMed in a region--so you're refilling replay for the wrong audience, almost.
Replay is something that keeps coming up. My theory is that it keeps coming up not because people in huge lodges want more replay (although some of them might), but rather because the existing options have never reached smaller lodges who are having replay problems.
The default PFS approach to limiting access to goodies is to unlock it based on games played or games GMed in some fashion. Whether that's by faction journal cards, or GM stars, or checking off boxes on a boon, or by making people go to a convention and play or GM a bunch to get something.
If that approach was going to solve this problem, it would have already. Instead, it seems to enable replay in areas that have large numbers of players but prevents smaller lodges from benefiting from existing replay options.
Nobody here is in favor of infinite replay. And if you can get to them, there certainly seem to be replay options. So if we're trying to target the existing problem areas without adversely impacting places where it's not a problem, what are the options? How can we target problems at smaller venues, smaller lodges, without overwhelming larger lodges?
- The idea in this thread, unlocking replay for a particular scenario after a certain number of years has its problems but since it's tied to a very different thing (years played rather than games played) it seems to have promise.
- We could provide more holiday boons or other boons that aren't tied to a convention and aren't limited by virtue of being centrally managed and have those boons provide a game or two of replay.
- There could be some number of replays (not sure what the right number is--one? two?) per year played.
What else?
The idea above of unlocking the scenarios once a character hits 12th level might have a bit of merit if you move it to unlocking once that character is either retired or marked dead. It would however need a way to determine when that unlock occurs if you have a character who has a chronicle for playing it and a chronicle from a GM use or a replay. Possibly only unlocking them once you have either no active chronicles from it or track it only for the 1st play-through and only worry about when that chronicle is retired?
Keep in mind I am offering an outside opinion as I am not active in PFS.
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What if there was a boon that players could earn, similar to Expanded Narrative for GMs, that would allow some limited replay?
Don't misunderstand - I'm fine with the limited replay we allow right now but I might support something like that. Or make it a high target reward on the Faction Journal Cards.
I like the idea of GM stars recharging on their own. As it stands right now I'm going to horde my one star and never use it to replay as my chances to GM at conventions are extremely limited (and race boons are much more enticing than recharging stars). So since I know my star will effectively never recharge, I'm always going to not use it to replay as I'll always be thinking about "well what if some other scenario comes along for this character that would fit better for them. So to make it an actually currency as it seems it's supposed to be, I'd like it if stars recharged yearly.
As to "Core is always an option," I just find that insulting. I have absolutely no desire to play Core and think that being enticed "with an option for replay" and having it revealed as what we now know as Core to be insulting. Forgive me if that's too harsh as I don't mean to be insulting, but I support Paizo and buy nearly every Player Companion that comes out. I want to be able to use every option available and core simply has no place for that and is too limited in the wrong ways.
I love pathfinder and thoroughly enjoy PFS, but if for whatever reason a regular table isn't available and Core is my only other option, I'd rather not play and find something else to do with my time. Basically PFS > my other hobbies > Core.
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If you play Core you don't get to use any of your additional resources (except those unlocked by chronicle access). But you still get to play.
If you don't play Core, then you don't get to use any of your additional resources, and also don't get to play.
That line of thinking has some assumptions buried in it:
1. Assume you have infinite Free Time
2. Assume there is no cost to playing (monetary or otherwise)
I was replying directly to this sentiment:
I have zero interest in a campaign that would only make me regret having spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars in books that I couldn't use.
My point is that if you don't play at all then you don't get to use those books either, so I don't see that as a valid reason for not playing Core.
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I was replying directly to this sentiment:I have zero interest in a campaign that would only make me regret having spent hundreds upon hundreds of dollars in books that I couldn't use.My point is that if you don't play at all then you don't get to use those books either, so I don't see that as a valid reason for not playing Core.
It feels like we're having a 'talking past each other' moment here?
Society Member One: "I have put a SIGNIFICANT amount of my expendable resources (ie, MONEY) into getting COOL STUFF".
Society Member Two: "Well, be glad for a chance to play ANYTHING. It's not valid to complain that you've spent all that money on COOL STUFF if you just want to play."
I could be mistaken, and hopefully that's not the point being driven towards, because it looks like it could go straight off a cliff of rhetoric, there.
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It's okay to not want to play Core. I understand that.
I even understand wanting to do something else instead of playing Core. My three Core characters aren't that interesting (mechanically). They don't get to play with the fringe feats and the like.
But if I want to replay a scenario, that's my way to do so. I don't have the ability to claim that it isn't available (you know, because it is). If I choose to do something else, that's on me, not on the structure of the Organized Play system.
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I don't have the ability to claim that it isn't available (you know, because it is).
Except, when, you know - it isn't.
Not all lodges have the manpower / resources to run simultaneous CORE & Standard. This has been effectively illustrated ad nauseum and is still somehow ignored / missed. I'm in one of the most prolific areas for PFS (Mike Brock & John Compton's original PFS stomping grounds) and even we have had some CORE vs. Standard issues.Not all solutions apply equally in all areas.
Me, I'd generally rather not play PFS than play CORE. The only reason I have CORE characters registered is that I was a store coordinator and felt I should have some characters ready in order to support the campaign and (now) if I get a wild hair and decide to play at a con I can play CORE if there's nothing else going on.
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I don't have the ability to claim that it isn't available (you know, because it is). If I choose to do something else, that's on me, not on the structure of the Organized Play system.
It sounds as though you have done an excellent job with your lodge, dragging it back from the brink and making it fun and functional, if not huge. I think we could all take lessons from your example of how you communicate with your group to make sure games happen and everyone has fun. I'm also impressed by your ability to make CORE games work in a small lodge--that's not easy.
I think the crux of the core issue is not that it's terrible or bad or insufficient or we don't like it. (Although for some of us the latter is certainly true.) As you point out, we have the right to avoid options we don't like, but we should recognize the choice we're making.
The problem, instead, is that in a lodge where only one or two people want to play core, that's not enough for a game. It is not an option; it effectively does not exist for those players.
When core play is not an option for someone, when they can't get their hands on expanded narrative, that means that their replay options are limited to their finite star replays. Such as they have had the opportunity and time to earn them.
From their perspective, the opportunity for replay hasn't been expanded at all.
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What if there was a boon that players could earn, similar to Expanded Narrative for GMs, that would allow some limited replay?
Don't misunderstand - I'm fine with the limited replay we allow right now but I might support something like that. Or make it a high target reward on the Faction Journal Cards.
I like the idea of GM stars recharging on their own. As it stands right now I'm going to horde my one star and never use it to replay as my chances to GM at conventions are extremely limited (and race boons are much more enticing than recharging stars). So since I know my star will effectively never recharge, I'm always going to not use it to replay as I'll always be thinking about "well what if some other scenario comes along for this character that would fit better for them. So to make it an actually currency as it seems it's supposed to be, I'd like it if stars recharged yearly.
As to "Core is always an option," I just find that insulting. I have absolutely no desire to play Core and think that being enticed "with an option for replay" and having it revealed as what we now know as Core to be insulting. Forgive me if that's too harsh as I don't mean to be insulting, but I support Paizo and buy nearly every Player Companion that comes out. I want to be able to use every option available and core simply has no place for that and is too limited in the wrong ways.
I love pathfinder and thoroughly enjoy PFS, but if for whatever reason a regular table isn't available and Core is my only other option, I'd rather not play and find something else to do with my time. Basically PFS > my other hobbies > Core.
Exactly.
We attempted Core locally. It BOMBED. It bombed HARD. I believe they were able to get tables to fire two or three times, and after that every time we scheduled it the table would never fill, so we stopped scheduling it.
I am one of our top GMs at our location, and you will see that I am a one star. (I should hit two very soon.) We run every other week, and I insist on playing 40% to 60% of the time to avoid burnout, so that gives me about 13 tables a year, plus say another 5 at conventions. And that's if life doesn't intervene -- which it always does. As far as I am concerned, Star Replays are irrelevant, because there aren't enough of them for them to be a resource. One replay every two to three years? Who cares?
For a while I was saving my one replay for Temple of Empyreal Enlightenment (because I would *love* to have my Cleric of Naderi go through that) but I ended up using my one replay to make a table fire. Oh well. I'm sure that will be the fate of any replays I earn.
I'm fine without replays being allowed, but I just want to be clear that to my mind, hearing people talk about replays under the current system is kind of like hearing people talk about investing in the derivatives market. It's interesting to think about, and I'm sure there are some people who are able to do it, but everyone I know is too busy trying to scrape together their mortgage for it to be something they'll ever actually *do*.
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I ended up using my one replay to make a table fire.So if it's playing to get a legal table you can do it without credit, even if you have a star.
Figured I'd mention this just in case.
I did know that, but thanks for mentioning it. I'd been planning on turning down the chronicle, but was close enough to getting my second star I decided "screw it," so I could start leveling up one of my many level 1 characters.
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My personal opinion is that the campaign is pretty generous when it comes to replay (being that unlimited replay in part can cause the end of a campaign in general).
That being said, if you don't want to GM and don't want to play Core, you are in part causing your own issues by eliminating 75% of possible chronicle credit.
Or if one is *allowed* to GM and/or has the *time* to play/GM Core.
Do not presume that it is a 'want' situation, please.
That felt a bit offensive, based on personal experiences.
Probably not the intent.
Ummm, one of the first page replies was about not wanting to play Core, that was what I was referencing. If you have time to play, you have time to GM. It takes no more time than self-auditing your own character before a game day.
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Ummm, one of the first page replies was about not wanting to play Core, that was what I was referencing. If you have time to play, you have time to GM. It takes no more time than self-auditing your own character before a game day.
For some people, that's how much prep they need to do.
For others, it can take eight to twelve hours to get it 'right' in addition to sitting down and running it.
GMing is more than a 'cold' read of a scenario and go.
At least, that's the standard I hold myself to. Saved my butt when my papers decided to turn into a blizzard right before Cosmic Captive, imo.
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Archives of the Seeker / Chronicles of the Deceased Boon
Once a character reaches 12th level or is marked as permanently dead, this boon may be assigned to them. List below all chronicles assigned to that character, the date the chronicle was assigned and if it was earned as a player or a game master.
If marked as a scenario played, present this boon alongside the original chronicle to the GM at least three years after the associated chronicle was initially earned. You may replay that scenario with any character that would otherwise legally be able to do so, but may only earn the gold, experience and prestige from the scenario with all boons and items being crossed out of the earned chronicle. Cross the played scenario off of this boon.
If marked as a scenario GMed, you may cross the scenario off of this boon to award the chronicle to any character that could otherwise legally acquire it. The chronicle may only contain earned gold, experience and prestige, all boons should be crossed off of the chronicle. Note that this does not not have the same three year restriction for replaying previously played adventures.
Scenario | Date Earned | Player/GM | Replayed
_____ | _____ | [ ] [ ] | _____
_____ | _____ | [ ] [ ] | _____
_____ | _____ | [ ] [ ] | _____
_____ | _____ | [ ] [ ] | _____
_____ | _____ | [ ] [ ] | _____ etc…
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Archives of the Seeker / Chronicles of the Deceased Boon
Once a character reaches 12th level or is marked as permanently dead, this boon may be assigned to them. List below all chronicles assigned to that character, the date the chronicle was assigned and if it was earned as a player or a game master.
I like that idea.
Now, I do not expect it to be put into action, nor any other replay options, but I like that idea.
I understand that replay concept is anathema to many. And I understand that Paizo can only put out a few scenarios a month. I have made my peace with that.
I don't feel that some of the posters realize some of the current consequences though.
PFS drove my Paizo purchases far more than private campaigns currently do. Now that I have to skip more than half of our local games because I have played them or because our one active sometimes-Core table outleveled my remaining active Core character, and is also likely to play or do something else -- though we are cutting PFS nights back to about once a week -- the following has been happening:
* I play far less;
* My friends play far less;
* We see fewer weekly tables forming;
* I no longer buy almost everything Pathfinder related, saving me hundreds of dollars annually;
* I know that several of my friends are no longer avid purchasers;
* I no longer try to recruit new players (since I cannot play with them).
I don't expect this situation to change, especially as dwindling Pathfinder numbers mean fewer private APs locally. But I do hope that things stay together until we see Starfinder (I am a space nerd, and love Golarion lore).
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*snip* though we are cutting PFS nights back to about once a week *snip*
now this is something that concerns me.
you have been playing multipul game sa week, and therefor burnt through all the content.giving you any sort of limited replay, with that schedule, you will do the exact same thing and run out of games to play.
while I understand you want to play more there is no way, sort of unlimited replay (that has its own issues) to accommodate this sort of play schedule withing PFS alone, you will run out of games to play again and be back here asking for more replay yet again.
Now I very much doubt unlimited replay will ever come, so it comes do to decide to I really want top play multiple times a week, and if so look at other play options then just PFS to help you keep pace with the content. I get that that's not the answer you want, but its the only practical solution I can see
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Ok, this might have been posted here before: What is stopping the people that want more replay options from replaying scenarios OUTSIDE of offical PFS?
You can use the exact same rules, it is just not part of the official campaign. You probably have to mark the chronicles in a specific way, so that you do not mix and match characters, but other than that I don't see a huge issue.
Yes, you can not sit at the same table with characters that are in the offical campaign and characters outside of it, but currently you are also unable to join these tables.
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Ok, this might have been posted here before: What is stopping the people that want more replay options from replaying scenarios OUTSIDE of offical PFS?
You can use the exact same rules, it is just not part of the official campaign. You probably have to mark the chronicles in a specific way, so that you do not mix and match characters, but other than that I don't see a huge issue.
Yes, you can not sit at the same table with characters that are in the offical campaign and characters outside of it, but currently you are also unable to join these tables.
However, it does not address 'getting everyone on the same tier' and condemning a smaller lodge to an endless repeating loop of 'evergreens' will not get them coming back once they out-level that content.
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Wei Ji, I do not understand your reaction.
My understanding is that the issue in this thread is that some players want to replay scenarios that they have already played. There is no scenario that these players have not played and the new scenarios each month are too little in number to satisfy their needs. Those players seem to have no interest in core and also not in modules and AP's.
I am asking why it is necessary to stay within the official PFS-ruleset. It is easy to use the same rules, with unlimited replay, as a homegame, whether that is in a public location or at somebody's house.
'Getting everyone on the same tier' is another issue. This can be solved by slow advancement and having multiple PC's at different levels.
'Endless loop of evergreens' is the only solution if you have played everything there is to play and do not want to play outside of the official PFS campaign. Is that fun? I don't think so. I would probably first look at the reasons why I wanted to stay within official PFS before asking for more replay options.
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Ok, this might have been posted here before: What is stopping the people that want more replay options from replaying scenarios OUTSIDE of offical PFS?
You can use the exact same rules, it is just not part of the official campaign. You probably have to mark the chronicles in a specific way, so that you do not mix and match characters, but other than that I don't see a huge issue.
Yes, you can not sit at the same table with characters that are in the offical campaign and characters outside of it, but currently you are also unable to join these tables.
From coming from a small group -- you then knock the whole table out of PFS where there are times we need one to two people who played it before (and not as the GM), to make the table officially fire for the other three who are able to play it for credit.
Some of the issues with the small lodges, is the longer someone has played, and you do recruit new blood into the mix, you get things like two or three people have played x, but the other two have not. You get one person as the GM that has played it but you are still a) short for firing the table without a pre-gen b) still leaving the others out of a game for that week.
It could have been 3+ years since someone played or run it and not all that familiar with the scenario or in some cases even remember it.
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Ok, this might have been posted here before: What is stopping the people that want more replay options from replaying scenarios OUTSIDE of offical PFS?
I myself do.
And I am willing to recruit to do so.But, when there are scenarios or modules available, I would rather play and GM with the larger group of friends that are in PFS.