I have a druid who wildshapes into a large air elemental. To do this, I need to be at least level 10, so I have plenty of cash and prestige points. With the spare cash, I decide to get wild armor. I'll need +1 armor as a base, and the wild property will add +3 on top, so my total payout will be for +4 magical armor, or about 16,000 GP.
However, I then notice that the Pathfinder Design Team answered a FAQ last year, and set out that wild armor has the medium/heavy movement penalties, armor check penalties, weight limitations, spell failure chances, and max DEX limitations of armor of its kind -- something that wasn't the case in D&D 3.5 and wasn't the case in Pathfinder initially (James Jacobs had previously said that it worked like D&D 3.5).
So in 2016 PFS, my air elemental in medium/heavy wild armor suddenly has a move speed of 40', is limited to a x3 run, and sees that +6 DEX bonus capped. Yikes. Wild armor no longer seems worth the +3 cost. I could change armor. Best base armor I can find now is +1 darkleaf leather lamellar armor. It's +5 AC, +5 max DEX, light armor -- full movement, but my +6 DEX bonus to AC gets cut down to +5, so my net gain on AC is 4.
I could get around the max DEX thing by just getting a shield with the wild armor property. However, the wild armor property notes that while you can put it on armor or shields, it only preserves the armor bonus, not the shield bonus. I play with very pedantic GMs in PFS, so shields will be immediately nerfed. They can't give a big enough bonus to AC, anyway. Best I can afford is a net +3 to AC.
Either way, armor or shield, it'll cost me around 16,000 GP. Net gain to AC is 3 or 4, and depending upon how the GM rules, could be nerfed down to +0.
Or, I can spend 2 prestige points, get a wand of Mage Armor and just spam that liberally for a reliable net gain of 4 to my AC, and it works against incorporeal creatures. I can buy 2 or 3 wands if my career in PFS lasts long enough to use them all. Same bonus, but 15,000 GP less expensive.
So my questions for the advice forum: Am I looking at this wrong? Is there an armor type I'm missing that would help? Is there any reason to ever get wild armor, and if so, can you walk me through it? If you're going to be wildshaping into a corporeal creature, isn't carrying a bag of holding with barding or large size armor that you can switch into a better option at this point? More AC bonus, far less cost?
What am I missing?
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The only thing I think you might be missing is that mage armor is not on the druid spell list. You need a DC20 use magic device check to use the wand as a single-class druid.
That said, if you're actually invested ranks in UMD, such a wand can be a great alternative to light armor. Just ask my swashbuckler.
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Depending on the rest of your party Magic Vestment might increase the AC of the armor, but for a dex based druid mage armor is more consistent (or bracers of armor).
Shield spell via vibrant purple prism (either UMD a scroll into it or ask a partymember)
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You're correct. It's not worth the +3 enhancement any more. The nerf was unwarranted and unwanted. But it's what we have.
If you are wild-shaping into big slow things with no dex anyways it's not terrible, as you won't have the dex to penalize anyways. But for small things or elementals... yeah, take a pass on it.
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I have a druid who wildshapes into a large air elemental. To do this, I need to be at least level 10, so I have plenty of cash and prestige points. With the spare cash, I decide to get wild armor. I'll need +1 armor as a base, and the wild property will add +3 on top, so my total payout will be for +4 magical armor, or about 16,000 GP.
However, I then notice that the Pathfinder Design Team answered a FAQ last year, and set out that wild armor has the medium/heavy movement penalties, armor check penalties, weight limitations, spell failure chances, and max DEX limitations of armor of its kind -- something that wasn't the case in D&D 3.5 and wasn't the case in Pathfinder initially (James Jacobs had previously said that it worked like D&D 3.5).
So in 2016 PFS, my air elemental in medium/heavy wild armor suddenly has a move speed of 40', is limited to a x3 run, and sees that +6 DEX bonus capped. Yikes. Wild armor no longer seems worth the +3 cost. I could change armor. Best base armor I can find now is +1 darkleaf leather lamellar armor. It's +5 AC, +5 max DEX, light armor -- full movement, but my +6 DEX bonus to AC gets cut down to +5, so my net gain on AC is 4.
That "change" of requiring armor penalties while wearing armor you benefit from seems incredibly reasonable.
To the task at hand.
First, Max dex is an issue no matter what. It is notable that the max dex penalty doesn't apply to all aspects of dex, just the Dex bonus to AC. So even if you lost dex to AC, you still retain the +6 dex for skills, initiative, reflex saves and attack rolls.
Still, if you have a +6 dex bonus to AC, you really aren't likely to end up with any higher than +10 total AC from armor and dex (before enhancement bonuses). I'd look into other sources of AC bonuses, like natural armor, dodge or sacred armor bonuses.
Second, is armor check, which can be a large issue. Armor check applies to strength and dex skills. If there is only one real skill affected by this that you intend to regularly use, you could look into Wisdom in the Flesh which would allow that particular skill to test on wisdom instead, making it unaffected by penalties str/dex based skills (or rather, that skill becomes immune to armor check penalties). This does cost a deity and a trait, but if set on the air elemental, getting this on fly checks while planning to be in heavy armor is a very viable choice.
As for speed (third issue), you can increase your speed. There are feats and such for that, as normal. Both for running in armor and for base speed. Lots of options here.
That aside, you had mentioned Shield and Mage Armor. Shield can become a cast-able spell via the Protection (Defense) domain, which is an option via certain archetypes. The Boar and Bear Shaman archetypes have access to the Protection domain.
The Naga Aspirant (Nagaji race specific archetype) can also add both Shield and Mage Armor to their Druid spell list. Though, unfortunately, that one modifies wild shape to the point where you can't become an air elemental.
The Urban Druid can take the Protection Domain and can Spontaneously cast their domains spells, but has a severely limited wild shape, so is unlikely a compatible option.
Ice Armor maybe helps....
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Ice Armor maybe helps....
Issue is that player wants to be an air elemental. So without "wild" armor, I don't think his form can wear traditional armor. Maybe I'm mistaken here.
If mistaken, Ice Armor, or just buying and donning actual armor is a viable option, since you have 10 hours of wild shape at 10th level anyway.
The description for elemental subtype talks about being proficient or not with armor. Either way, armor appears to be considered a viable option on elementals, just with or without a penalty. (And since the penalty will be powered by the druid's proficiency, the penalty may not even matter.)
I'm not sure that Ice Armor is "traditional armor" anyway -- it's magical (duration is not instantaneous leaving behind normal non-magical stuff; it's hour/level, so a constant magical effect is in place) and it can be formed to match your form. And it was made for druids, so it seems like the spell was written with their wildshape in mind, though I've not talked to the author of the spell to confirm his thinking.
Anyway, I'm bummed to notice that this entire topic is just a word-for-word, concept-for-concept rehash of this topic. They had the same issues and ideas, right down to Ice Armor, Mage Armor, barding, and so on.
Hail Armor!
Yeah, I was thinking something like whirling plates that whipped through the swirling cloud/whirlwind of the elemental. The elemental is somehow corporeal, since it is hit by normal weapons and doesn't have the gaseous/amorphous quality. So it seems like there's something there to hang some plate armor on. But that could just be wishful thinking.
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Post nerfing of the armor enhancement druids local 704 concurs with your decision, and has been working furiously with local armorers to get druids in their prefered combat forms barding.
not sure if that works with an air elemental though.
It MIGHT be worth if for the shield, since there's no easy other way of getting a shield bonus for a druid in combat. A darkwood heavy wooden shield has an ACP of 0
You could write "Dorothy's house" on the shield and cut it in the shape of a little prarie farmhouse.... 17k for +3 more AC sounds like a lot though, you'd have to work out the math for what you have.
+1 armor (1k)
+1 shield (1k)
+1 ring (2k)
+1 amulet (2k)
+2 armor (3k)
+2 shield (3k)
+2 DEX belt (4k)
jingasa Rest in peace jingasa (5k)
Dusty Rose Prism ioun stone(5k)
+3 armor (5k)
+3 shield (5k)
+2 ring (6k)
+2 amulet (6k)
+4 armor (7k)
+4 shield (7k)
+3 ring (10k)
+3 amulet (10k)
+4 DEX belt (12k; probably get this sooner since it's not just for AC)
And so on.
You can barkskin yourself, mage armor is your best armor choice, the shield costs slightly less than a comparable ring , you probably have a strength belt which makes a dex belt prohibitive. 8k for a dex ioun stone for 1 ac is a more incremental purchase but worse than the shield on a 1:1 basis, but is better than upgrading the shield from +1 to +2.
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. However, the wild armor property notes that while you can put it on armor or shields, it only preserves the armor bonus, not the shield bonus. I play with very pedantic GMs in PFS, so shields will be immediately nerfed. They can't give a big enough bonus to AC, anyway. Best I can afford is a net +3 to AC.
that is utterly ridiculous.
I should note that if you had wild armor pre clarification you are allowed to sell it back at full price. (will dig for citation)
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From my experience with in the nerf of the wild enhancement was pretty necessary from the balance standpoint, though there are many who disagree.
Wild as with all armors usefulness will vary greatly depending on your DEX. If you're a low dex druid using a low dex form, wearing +1 Wild Dragonhide Full Plate is probably worth the expenditure over Mage Armor. Conversely if you're going to a decently high DEX form, mage armor is probably the better investment. (I highly recommend a Wand Key Ring and some investment in UMD in this case) The only other advantage of wild is that you can stack other enhancements on top, especially at high level play.
There is an underlying issue with armors in Pathfinder (and back to 3.5) that makes this the case. There are functionally three armors in Pathfinder (despite there existing far more), a Chainshirt, a Breastplate, and Full-plate. Assuming you take the maximum DEX bonus in each, full-plate ends up with 2 more AC than a chainshirt, but for all but 3 classes it takes at least one feat (if not 2) for proficiency and hinders your movement (assuming you don't have armor training 2). Furthermore it costs more to start out with and more to make out of a special material. A Mithril Chainshirt allows you the same amount to your AC (+4 Armor +6 DEX) as a Full-plate (+9/+1), allows full movement, is usable by almost every class in the game (sorry druids and monks), and allows you room to increase your DEX without going above the MAX DEX. There are builds that take advantage of heavier armors well, but light and no armor wearers generally make the best tanks in game. This slight favoring of light armor is actually further increased by a number of the light armor wearing classes getting innate (generally Dodge) bonuses to AC and possibly other nice methods of defense (I'm looking at you Opportune Parry and Riposte). Heavy Armor is generally the best in early game where it is also a very significant amount of a characters capital, but light armor generally scales better.
To go above and beyond that mage armor can be used innately by relatively few classes (compared to other very common core spells), but gives the same AC bonus as a chainshirt with no max dex, then it also works against incorporeal. However, it can't be enchanted and has no scaling so for most classes it's nice early, but late it's an add-on or a 1/day cast at best. That said certain classes can make great use of it (monks and druids come to mind first) due to class restrictions and their ability to stack other kinds of AC bonuses onto themselves.
re semi tangent: there's also darkleaf cloth studded leather.
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One comment to the OP. It isn't table variation (up to how a GM rules) or a GM being pedantic, for them to follow the rules. That's simply not a fair statement to make. Especially in PFS.
I think its fair to expect table variation. How wild armor applies to shields is VERY badly written, sufficiently badly that I think it quite reasonable for a GM to read it as "obviously, wild armor on a shield preserves the shield bonus. Anything else is ridiculous". I also think a GM is quite within their rights to say "No, it is ridiculously overpriced but a shield only adds the enhancement bonus, despite that being impossible"
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"No, it is ridiculously overpriced but a shield only adds the enhancement bonus, despite that being impossible"
I'm iffy on what the ruling should be - but while too expensive when you first afford it, it's not at all ridiculously overpriced once you get to level 16 or so to get a +5 bonus for 64k. Especially since it doesn't use up a hand when shifted.
"No, it is ridiculously overpriced but a shield only adds the enhancement bonus, despite that being impossible"I'm iffy on what the ruling should be - but while too expensive when you first afford it, it's not at all ridiculously overpriced once you get to level 16 or so to get a +5 bonus for 64k. Especially since it doesn't use up a hand when shifted.
Nope. The enhancement bonus on a shield is a bonus to the shields shield bonus. If someone is saying that the shield bonus doesn't apply, the enhancement bonus doesn't either because it enhances a number they think doesn't apply.
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"No, it is ridiculously overpriced but a shield only adds the enhancement bonus, despite that being impossible"I'm iffy on what the ruling should be - but while too expensive when you first afford it, it's not at all ridiculously overpriced once you get to level 16 or so to get a +5 bonus for 64k. Especially since it doesn't use up a hand when shifted.
Not seeing where it says shifting frees up their hands. As written, the armor/shield isn't visible, but that's it. I would argue that the shield arm is still occupied for the purposes of calculating strength bonuses to attacks.
As for price, it really doesn't strike me as overpriced. It's very expensive, but you could certainly get a +3 value for this upgrade. The OP's character doesn't benefit from it, but that's because they are relying on a high dex build which is inherently limited with a heavy armor build.
Side note, OP mentions having a large air elemental form at 10th level. If AC is the goal, it is notable that the Earth and Water Elemental forms have 2 higher natural AC bonuses from their form. Natural AC bonuses stack with normal armor, so if going wild shape, isn't the natural armor better with wild shape forms and heavy armor?
Not seeing where it says shifting frees up their hands
Under polymorph section of transmutation in the magic chapter
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body.
A wild shield or armor would work with a snake, which doesn't have hands. It would be arbitrary to say the least to have it still occupy hands that you may or may not even have.
OP is complaining about getting +4 AC when paying for +4 armor enchantment. OK.
One comment to the OP. It isn't table variation (up to how a GM rules) or a GM being pedantic, for them to follow the rules. That's simply not a fair statement to make. Especially in PFS.
Thank you for the comment, Andrew, but it is not correct or valid in the context of this discussion. Or at least, it is not accurate to the text that I personally posted and which you are responding to. Perhaps it makes sense in regards to something someone else posted here or elsewhere.
Table variation isn't slander or me being mean; it's a factual statement about whether different tables will run this differently. The fact that I can go to 5 different tables and get multiple different implementations of this means I am factually experiencing table variation.
As for being pedantic, when a rule clearly is intended to provide both the shield & armor bonus but editing and/or neglect has caused a loophole that allows a GM to refuse a shield bonus even though it is clearly intended to work, it's pretty much the exact definition of being pedantic. I stand by my assertion that something pedantic is pedantic, and calling it that is correct and accurate.
I agree with one thing. It is not being pedantic to "follow the rules." It's just that in this case, we are not discussing the rules. We are discussing a grey area, a situation where Paizo unfortunately didn't do a clean job with the rules text. We can see what they intended, but also what they actually wrote, and they are not in sync. So GMs are stuck in this situation -- not stuck with "running the rules while outshyn complains" but with "interpreting the rules in a case where you can read it either way and the text is muddy enough to back up either interpretation as rules-legal." That's fuzzy, difficult, and prone to error. Either side could insist their interpretation is correct and refuse to work with the other side, and both sides could point to rules text to back up their reasoning. That's not "following the rules," that's "oh crap the rules are buggy and haven't been patched, what do we do?"
If we were talking about me being disgruntled that the GMs were following the rules, your admonishment would apply. However, that's not what is happening here.
Ice Armor maybe helps....Issue is that player wants to be an air elemental. So without "wild" armor, I don't think his form can wear traditional armor. Maybe I'm mistaken here.
If mistaken, Ice Armor, or just buying and donning actual armor is a viable option, since you have 10 hours of wild shape at 10th level anyway.
I see nothing that says air elementals are incorporeal- they don't have that in their stat block. And they die from getting hit (harder to do so since they have DR/-, but it works; I assume the DR for air elemetnals means they slightly reform as long as they aren't completely dispersed with lots of heavy hits). And the elemental subtype lets them use weapons if they have a humanoid form.
So basically 'its magic', so they are physical enough for armor.
Anyway, I strongly advocate for using normal armor made for the elemental form. This set up is an explicit situation for this. The plan is to stay as a single form that fits the character's style (in this case, I assume they are a caster druid, so they want flying, extra dex, and DR), so there is little need to stick with the problems created by other druids' obsession with being able to turn into anything at the drop of a hat.
So just buy large sized armor and wear it- put the cost that would be used for wild armor into regular enhancement bonus to make it better than mage armor. It is what I would use for a weapon wielding earth elemental build.