Mage killer rogue

[CryntheCrow]

I think I've got it. The animal ally feat chain. Its not 'outside help,' as the animal is a class feature that can take the teamwork feat related to stealth and basically ensure good rolls as they creep up to the wizard. Even if its a diviner, if the animal attacks first, and the diviner uses a turn dealing with the animal, he probably won't have the perception to deal with a rouge heavily invested in stealth. That brings up a single turn opening that all the planars and auto-initiative wins in the world can't beat. Of course, all of this is a pointless discussion. Honestly, I've never seen a 'spellcasters are so much stronger' post that didn't assume the wizard had an infinite supply of wealth and preparation while knowing their opponent. Personally, in practice in the game, I think wizards feel kind of weak.

[johnlocke90]

MageHunter wrote:

Didn't read through everything from laziness, but I feel obliged to post.

Wizards are powerful, but the DC for Concentration is actually pretty hard. If you ready an action to interrupt the spell the DC is 10 + damage dealt + spell level. If that's a ninth level spell minimum roll is likely your damage - 5, not counting for concentration boosts. So max out damage.

The problem is all high level wizards know that already. They have contingencies up to teleport away if attacked, then come back mindblanked+invisible(which makes it impossibe for the rogue to find him). They have animated skeletons and simulacrums up permanently to charge at the attackers.

And of course, the wizard himself is astral projecting from a demiplane with tons of traps and a second demiplane with his clone. How is the rogue by himself going to even find the Wizards real body and clone?

[johnlocke90]

Dracoknight wrote:

N. Jolly wrote:

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

When you get to him I would use a wand and or scroll with a spell that created an illusion of you so the wizard used some of his best spell on the illusion. Heck if it is a wand keep creating them.

Get golums and have them all have a spell cast on them so they look like you so the wizard does not know which one is you or even if they are you or not.

MDC

True seeing, 6th level spell

"And then my wizard have a spell that can disable golems despite their immunity! Ofcourse he made wands so you dont see it on his prepares spell-list!"

At level 20, a wizard has 60+ spells a day easily. Plus a few "I can cast a spell I haven't prepared today" options. He is going to have low level slots prepared for all sorts of weird cases. Dealing with spell immune creatures is an easy one. Always have a glitterdust or two prepped, hungry pit. And of course my animated dead skeletons and simulacrums to protect me.

[johnlocke90]

Arcane Addict wrote:

Have you considered simply destroying the tower while the wizard sleeps, crushing him in the rubble? I'm not being sarcastic, this is a serious suggestion. Your DM's hubris is similar to that of wizards. Defy his assumptions about how you would approach it by attacking from an unexpected angle. I mean, the goal is to beat him right? You're a rogue, embrace the idea and just don't fight fair! Just win!

His "tower" is a demiplane, with a second demiplane for his clone.

How do you destroy that as a rogue?

[Atavist]

I always thought using Sunder on the spell components pouch would be a nice step, but I don't believe it's rogue doable. This is a huge thread and I've been out of the game for a while but it'll be interesting to read.

[johnlocke90]

Mark Carlson 255 wrote:

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

OP implies that the Rogue first needs to get through the entire Wizard's tower and then gets to fight the Wizard. So the arena, as it were, appears to be a tower. One constructed and managed by the Wizard.

Yeah, that just makes things sound worse. If the Rogue is expected to solo a dungeon before finally killing the boss (who has fairly good odds of killing them in a straight up fight anyway), that's just an obscene disadvantage. So... find some way to lure the Wizard out of the tower first?

This is what I was thinking. Why does the thief have to go through all the minions to get to the bad guy, if the question was can a 20th level rogue defeat a 20th level wizard?

All of the battlefield prep by the wizard is a large advantage IMHO.

MDC

The wizard has astral projection, so if the rogue doesn't somehow figure out where the wizard lives and come at him, the wizard will eventually just kill the rogue. Doesn't matter how many tries it takes.

[johnlocke90]

Jayson MF Kip wrote:

Semi-related question:

Since This 20th level wizard is so unassailable, how does a 20th level wizard kill a 20th level wizard?

DM fiat. Finding the real body is impossible otherwise due to magically timeless mindblank. You can flesh to stone the astral projection and stop him from returning, but if the wizard is smart his body will die after a while, at which point the spell ends and he comes back in a clone.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

johnlocke90 wrote:

Jayson MF Kip wrote:

Semi-related question:

Since This 20th level wizard is so unassailable, how does a 20th level wizard kill a 20th level wizard?

DM fiat. Finding the real body is impossible otherwise due to magically timeless mindblank. You can flesh to stone the astral projection and stop him from returning, but if the wizard is smart his body will die after a while, at which point the spell ends and he comes back in a clone.

I wonder how Imprisonment works on an Astral Projection. I guess the same way, kill the real body and the imprisoned projection goes "poof." Trap the Soul should work on the projection, though, as a way to take the real wizard out.

[johnlocke90]

Trap the Soul won't work. Per Astral Projection RAW, the destruction of your original body kills you. Trap the Soul would trap your new astral physical body and life force, but the old physical body would still die. Ending Trap the Soul and sending you into a Clone.

[Plausible Pseudonym]

I'm pretty sure your astral body is supposed to incorporate your soul. If the soul is trapped, there's nothing to snap back to your real body and bounce to the clone.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Atavist wrote:

I always thought using Sunder on the spell components pouch would be a nice step, but I don't believe it's rogue doable. This is a huge thread and I've been out of the game for a while but it'll be interesting to read.

So this one comes up frequently, but the problem is that, well, it's 5 gp. There's no reason for the Wizard not to have a dozen (except possibly space constraints). It will occasionally catch people unaware (and targeting the holy symbol, spell component pouch, or weapon shuts down a whole bunch of early PFS and AP enemies).

Animal ally for an animal companion to sacrifice is a solid plan. In fact, I've made a similar plan before to deal with a Diviner wizard (have someone else initiate combat, jump in at a later round). In this case, the problem is that you need some way to make the Wizard want to stay. If a tiny bear bursts into their lair (and no one else), the Wizard is probably going to assume something is up (and someone else is there). So you either need it not to look like a bear (or whatever) or have some way of pretending it's intelligent.

[Tacticslion]

PłentaX wrote:

dot.

plus

TBH , "rogue Players" are only trolling in this topic sooo far...

Schrodinger's rogue for the win with ultimate custom items WBL and spells in his sleeves !

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

This topic Crops up in the Forums on a regular and its the same thing over and over. Rogue Fanboys defending one of the worst mechanical classes in the game and pretending like they are a T1 class.

I'm wishing the Admins would just lock this useless thread already and any more Baiting style Threads that crop up.

Given the immediate back-and-forth we just had, I feel like this is (in a passive-aggressive manner) directed at me, Fruian, and, insomuch as it is, I will request a retraction, or, at least, a recognition that I am not among those that you are attempting to refer to (though people who like rogues as they are... that's fine, I suppose; weird, to me, but fine, for them). I, at least, have been a vocal opponent of the way the way rogues are currently structured and have definitively put my foot down in the camp that they are - without question - under-powered compared to other classes.

They are, frankly, at a terrible place, mechanically. It's a daggum shame, but that's how it is.

Further, there is no class printed that's as powerful as wizards - some are close - sorcerers and arcanists, depending on interpretations and archetypes may well be debatable, depending on what you're going for, but over-all, wizards are, to my experience and knowledge, the most powerful class.

(I have not played around with the occult classes enough to determine their relative power; seems they have some cool tricks, and some surprisingly notable weaknesses.)

If this is not toward me... it still seems needlessly harsh language toward people who disagree with you. But your prerogative, I suppose. Odd placement, coming, as it does, immediately after our conversation, making for an odd impression, but that's how communication goes over the internet: odd interpretations.

[Tacticslion]

Bob Bob Bob wrote:

The original post wasn't baiting though. It was sincere, if a bit misguided. The OP kept up with the thread (for a while, anyway) with varying levels of... misplaced confidence, but at no point did they seem anything less than sincere.

The problem is, well, everyone else. As I've tried explaining a few times now, this isn't a Rogue vs Wizard thread. It's just PvGM. But that doesn't stop people from acting like this is some kind of generic "can a Rogue beat a Wizard" thread. All the "restrictions" are just the rules the OP and their opponent agreed on. Schrodinger's Wizard is 100% justified since we're helping build the Rogue and have to assume any possible Wizard opponent. If we were making the Wizard we'd assume Schrodinger's Rogue. Anything that even implies "If I were GM it would work this way" is completely worthless, unless that person happens to be the one actually running the Wizard. We've got what, 150 posts now on "Here's how I think bound outsiders should behave" that are basically useless. It's possible they might be run that way, but given that the person who decides that is also playing the Wizard, that deck is stacked. (and the usual response will be something about how it's unfair, etc. etc.)

If more people could just stick to the purpose of the thread and either help build a Rogue or help build a Wizard lair, things would be fine. But apparently "Rogue" just sets off this reaction.

This thing. This thing right here.

Thanks!

[johnlocke90]

Plausible Pseudonym wrote:

I'm pretty sure your astral body is supposed to incorporate your soul. If the soul is trapped, there's nothing to snap back to your real body and bounce to the clone.

If Trap The Soul was an instantaneous spell I would agree, but its isn't. Its permanent with a target of "one creature". When the wizard dies, there isn't a creature anymore. Without a target for the spell, the spell wouldn't work anymore.

Thats how Magic Jar works. You trap the hosts life force in a jar, but when the host body dies the life force immediately departs to the afterlife.

[Fruian Thistlefoot]

Tacticslion wrote:

PłentaX wrote:

dot.

plus

TBH , "rogue Players" are only trolling in this topic sooo far...

Schrodinger's rogue for the win with ultimate custom items WBL and spells in his sleeves !

Fruian Thistlefoot wrote:

This topic Crops up in the Forums on a regular and its the same thing over and over. Rogue Fanboys defending one of the worst mechanical classes in the game and pretending like they are a T1 class.

I'm wishing the Admins would just lock this useless thread already and any more Baiting style Threads that crop up.

Given the immediate back-and-forth we just had, I feel like this is (in a passive-aggressive manner) directed at me, Fruian, and, insomuch as it is, I will request a retraction, or, at least, a recognition that I am not among those that you are attempting to refer to (though people who like rogues as they are... that's fine, I suppose; weird, to me, but fine, for them). I, at least, have been a vocal opponent of the way the way rogues are currently structured and have definitively put my foot down in the camp that they are - without question - under-powered compared to other classes.

They are, frankly, at a terrible place, mechanically. It's a daggum shame, but that's how it is.

Further, there is no class printed that's as powerful as wizards - some are close - sorcerers and arcanists, depending on interpretations and archetypes may well be debatable, depending on what you're going for, but over-all, wizards are, to my experience and knowledge, the most powerful class.

(I have not played around with the occult classes enough to determine their relative power; seems they have some cool tricks, and some surprisingly notable weaknesses.)

If this is not toward me... it still seems needlessly harsh language toward people who disagree with you. But your prerogative, I suppose. Odd placement, coming, as it does, immediately after our conversation, making for an odd impression, but that's how communication goes over the internet: odd interpretations.

Bromego I'm not a passive-Aggressive type of Person. So no it was not directed at you. I am a very direct type of person who says whatever they want. So do not feel as if it was directly solely at you.

You are correct the Wizard is the most powerful class printed and most pale in comparison.

[Tacticslion]

Thanks for the correction! I appreciate it. :)