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Greeting all, in the game i played, a PC got into an argument with the GM over whether or not her shield-bash happy dwarf could use her attack to knock prone the giant scorpion we were fighting. Forgot what feats she had, but every time she bashed an enemy, they were knocked prone. The GM eventually ruled that since the PC was grappled by said scorpion, she couldn't knock it prone. This left her very nonplussed.
It was the last fight of the scenario, so it didn't matter much.
I know multi-legged opponents have bonuses against being tripped, but the question becomes Is being "knocked prone" different or the same as being tripped?
In what cases is being 'knocked prone' different from 'being tripped.'
I have a Hungry Ghost Monk that likes to Punishing Kick, and a Swashbuckler that plans on using Pommel Strike, and those are "Knock Prone" attacks with no mention of 'Tripping vs CMD'
and I just want to be informed when the situation arises when I come across an enemy that can't be tripped.
Thanks for the clarifications.
Page 133 CRB: Shield Slam
Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance.
Page 201 CRB: Trip
If your attack exceeds the target’s CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead.
The similarity in the "knocked prone" language between Shield Slam and Trip at least suggests an equivalency.
Huh. I'd say RAW they're different and trip bonuses don't apply. I'd also say an individual GM is making a pretty sensible ruling to say they do apply.
I guess it depends from a "realism" standpoint on whether you think multiple legs give a trip bonus because you'er targeting legs with a trip attempt, or they give a bonus because they just make you more stable over all. In the latter case I'd give the bonus to knocking something prone.
By RAW they are not the same.
However, this line in the trip text in the combat chapter would lend at least some support that the two are intended to be synonymous. Particularly the portion about oozes.
SRD wrote:
...such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
Oozes are always as prone as they are going to get already by their nature of being a non-structured blob of goo.
You could force a flying creature to the ground, then trip it (or otherwise knock it prone), but while it is in the air neither of those are possible - it simply cannot be prone while in the air.
Tripping is a way of inflicting the Prone condition, but inflicting the Prone condition does not necessarily require tripping someone. They are not equivalent.
Tripping = knocking prone:
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/combat.html#trip
PRD wrote: Trip
You can attempt to trip your opponent in place of a melee attack. You can only trip an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. If you do not have the Improved Trip feat, or a similar ability, initiating a trip provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.
If your attack exceeds the target's CMD, the target is knocked prone. If your attack fails by 10 or more, you are knocked prone instead. If the target has more than two legs, add +2 to the DC of the combat maneuver attack roll for each additional leg it has. Some creatures—such as oozes, creatures without legs, and flying creatures—cannot be tripped.
(emphasis mine)
The question is what type of shield was the PC using? http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/equipment.html#shield-bash- attacks
^ heavy shields are 'one-handed weapons' and light shields are 'light weapons'. If it is a heavy shield then no they can't shield bash while grappled.
Also, I don't see why you can't trip while grappled. The grappled rules say you can do other CMBs, but they take a -2 penalty. Only escaping the grapple or reversing the grapple takes no penalty. I would imagine that if you are grappled and do trip your opponent, you go prone as well. Additionally, with being knocking back the opponent 5 or more feet, it doesn't break the grapple, so you have to move and fall prone with the grappler.
Being knocked prone is the same as being tripped, as the language here relates to the state of the creature after the action.
However, the act of Shield Slamming and the act of Tripping are different actions that result in the same condition: knocked prone.
Edit: Shield Slamming only knocks something prone if it hits a wall before its slammed movement is over.
As an addendum "knocked prone" is not the same as "tripping" because the former is a state condition and the latter is a participle indicating an action. The result of tripping is being knocked prone.
And if you have Ace Trip, you can even Trip flying opponents -- which brings up the question of what happens when you Ace Trip a flying snake (for instance, a Couatl)?
Tripping = knocking prone.
Knocking prone =/= tripping.
One is a combat maneuver. The other is a result of that maneuver but ALSO the result of more than a few powers.
If it says you're knocking prone and doesn't say making a trip attack, it's not the same. This means feats that buff don't count, but penalties for failure don't result in a reversal attempt
Cavall wrote: Tripping = knocking prone.
Knocking prone =/= tripping.
One is a combat maneuver. The other is a result of that maneuver but ALSO the result of more than a few powers.
If it says you're knocking prone and doesn't say making a trip attack, it's not the same. This means feats that buff don't count, but penalties for failure don't result in a reversal attempt
I agree with your conclusion but to be pedantic, "knocking prone" is not a result (i.e. is not a state), but is a general class of actions that includes tripping as well as shield slamming and others. Feats that buff tripping do not also buff other ways of "knocking prone", and the same applies to penalties specifically applied to tripping.
The PC in question had a heavy shield and an animal companion that would flank- typically through "Charge Through", and then the PC would Shield Slam the opponent.
Like i said, she was trying to Shield Slam the scorpion, while being grappled by said scorpion.
Can you still knock prone flying enemies, or enemies that aren't otherwise on the ground, or are part of the ground?
In one session, my monk was fighting an alchemist that was clinging to the ceiling via Spider climb, tossing bombs at us; and my monk connected with a kick, knocking the enemy prone- the GM ruled that he fell off the ceiling. would that have been right?
Without corner-cases like nonstandard movement, nonstandard leg type, and situation-specific GM rulings, tripping knocks someone prone, but knocking someone prone does not necessarily trip them. There are multiple ways to knock someone prone, such as bull rushing a target off a cliff (or another situation where they fail an acrobatics check), overrunning, tripping, killing, GM rulings, etc. The only way to trip someone is to use the trip action, whether on its own or as part of another attack or spell. You can make an argument to the GM that shield slamming should count, but it seems clear that falling prone and tripping are not the same.
Prone is a condition:
Quote: Prone
The character is lying on the ground. A prone attacker has a –4 penalty on melee attack rolls and cannot use a ranged weapon (except for a crossbow). A prone defender gains a +4 bonus to Armor Class against ranged attacks, but takes a –4 penalty to AC against melee attacks.
Standing up is a move-equivalent action that provokes an attack of opportunity.
Tripping is one thing that can cause the prone condition. However, other things can also cause the prone condition. They're not the same thing.
Compare this to how the Glitterdust spell can cause blindness. This doesn't mean other things can't cause blindness. Nor does it imply that glitterdust and blindness are the same thing.
That being said, if a monster's description says it can't be tripped, it'd be best to assume they also mean that it's immune to the prone condition. Whether bonuses against being tripped also apply for other effects that cause the prone condition is probably best left as a GM call based on the situation.
Selvaxri wrote: Is being "knocked prone" different or the same as being tripped? Different.
FAQ wrote: The Greater Trip feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that you trip. The Vicious Stomp feat allows you to take an attack of opportunity against a foe that falls prone adjacent to you. If you have both these feats and trip a foe, do you get to make two attacks of opportunity (assuming that you can)?
Yes, the two triggering acts are similar here but they are different. One occurs when you trip a foe. The other occurs when a foe falls prone. It requires a large number of feats to accomplish, but you can really pile on the attacks with this combination.
Selvaxri wrote: I have a Hungry Ghost Monk that likes to Punishing Kick, and a Swashbuckler that plans on using Pommel Strike, and those are "Knock Prone" attacks with no mention of 'Tripping vs CMD'
and I just want to be informed when the situation arises when I come across an enemy that can't be tripped.
Your Monk should definitely take Vicious Stomp, maybe Greater Trip, too, if you want to go that way.
And to your first question,
Selvaxri wrote: PC got into an argument with the GM over whether or not her shield-bash happy dwarf could use her attack to knock prone the giant scorpion we were fighting. Forgot what feats she had, but every time she bashed an enemy, they were knocked prone. The GM eventually ruled that since the PC was grappled by said scorpion, she couldn't knock it prone. This left her very nonplussed. That Dwarf almost definitely had Shield Slam, just like
Pink Dragon wrote: Page 133 CRB: Shield Slam
Opponents who cannot move back due to a wall or other surface are knocked prone after moving the maximum possible distance.
Shield Slam let that Dwarf combine her Shield Bash with a Bull Rush that had the added advantage of letting her knock her opponents Prone sometimes. The Feat she needs to get an AoO on top of being knocked Prone is Vicious Stomp. But the Feat she really needs to get is Greater Bull Rush. That way, every time she Bull Rushes opponents, everybody gets attacks of opportunity, except for her. For her to get an AoO off of the Bull Rush, too, she needs Paired Opportunist combined with some class ability that unlocks it such as the Cavalier Tactician Ability or the Inquisitor Solo Tactics Ability. Then, if she and an ally get the next scorpion backed against a wall, her AoO can be yet another Shield Slam, followed by another round out AoOs, and you can all loop AoOs for as long as your Combat Refexes allow.
If that Dwarf wanted to score AoOs off of Greater Trip, she should make her Shield a Quickdraw, Throwing Shield, take the Quickdraw Feat, and get herself a Blinkback Belt. A Throwing Attack with a Throwing Shield is a Free Action. Throwing Shield has the Tripping quality, so she can Trip at Range, which has the added advantage of never suffering the risk of being Tripped by her own Trip attempt. Immediately after the Ranged Attack is resolved, the Blinkback Belt will teleport the shield back to itself, where she can re-draw it as a Free Action and take the Attack of Opportunity provided by Greater Trip by Throwing the Shield again, again as a Free Action. Since these are all Free Actions, she should be able to do this while in the midst of combat, having taken her Full Attack Action, and still enjoy Shield bonus to AC. She could theoretically have an infinite Free Action Attack loop, but the GM is specifically empowered by the Core Rulebook to impose "reasonable limits" on the number of actions she can take for free. But at the cost of 2 Feats and a 5000gp Magic Item, your GM should give her something good.
Wait....Can creatures unable to be tripped voluntarily go prone?
Like could an Ooze go prone if it wanted to?
Murdock Mudeater wrote: Wait....Can creatures unable to be tripped voluntarily go prone?
Like could an Ooze go prone if it wanted to?
I can't find any rule that says they can't. I'd say it just sort of spreads itself low and flat over the ground.
Byakko wrote:
That being said, if a monster's description says it can't be tripped, it'd be best to assume they also mean that it's immune to the prone condition.
Really? Because that rather seriously nerfs, for example, the grease spell. (Reflex save or fall prone, among other effects.) Whether bonuses against being tripped also apply for other effects that cause the prone condition is probably best left as a GM call based on the situation. ("Falling," in this case, references the Athletics skill. "If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone." So it also makes Acrobatics even less useful for many monsters than it already is[n't]....)
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Your Monk should definitely take Vicious Stomp, maybe Greater Trip, too, if you want to go that way. Already done. Not going to invest in Greater Trip.
As for the dwarf in question- it's not my place to recommend how someone builds their character, and it seems that she already knows what she's doing.
Building the PC is not the purpose of this thread, Knocked Prove vs Tripping is.
Obviously Knocked Prone and Tripping are not the same thing.
However, I do think it quite arguable that creatures that are immune to being tripped are immune precisely because the prone condition would be nonsensical or meaningless to them, and thus they are also immune to being prone.
A flying (or swimming creature is not going to be 'lying on the ground. ' A legless creature either always or never is 'lying on the ground.'
As a player I would expect that most, if not all, creatures that are immune to being tripped would also be immune to other methods of applying the prone condition and plan my build accordingly.
Dave Justus wrote: As a player I would expect that most, if not all, creatures that are immune to being tripped would also be immune to other methods of applying the prone condition and plan my build accordingly. Totally agree, but seems iffy in rules. Seems like an FAQ canidate, as I don't think legless creatures, like Slugs and Oozes are intended to be able to drop prone (voluntarily or otherwise).
Orfamay Quest wrote: Byakko wrote:
That being said, if a monster's description says it can't be tripped, it'd be best to assume they also mean that it's immune to the prone condition.
Really? Because that rather seriously nerfs, for example, the grease spell. (Reflex save or fall prone, among other effects.) Whether bonuses against being tripped also apply for other effects that cause the prone condition is probably best left as a GM call based on the situation. ("Falling," in this case, references the Athletics skill. "If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone." So it also makes Acrobatics even less useful for many monsters than it already is[n't]....)
Let's look at what sort of creatures are typically immune to tripping, and then determine if Grease is being unreasonably nerfed.
Snakes, and oozes. Those are the main groups of creatures that you can't trip. The prone condition doesn't make much sense for them since they're always "not on their feet" anyway. It should be noted that they can still be flat-footed by moving through grease. Snakes might lose Dex, oozes usually don't have any Dex to lose.
Ascalaphus wrote: Orfamay Quest wrote: Byakko wrote:
That being said, if a monster's description says it can't be tripped, it'd be best to assume they also mean that it's immune to the prone condition.
Really? Because that rather seriously nerfs, for example, the grease spell. (Reflex save or fall prone, among other effects.) Whether bonuses against being tripped also apply for other effects that cause the prone condition is probably best left as a GM call based on the situation. ("Falling," in this case, references the Athletics skill. "If you take damage while using Acrobatics, you must immediately make another Acrobatics check at the same DC to avoid falling or being knocked prone." So it also makes Acrobatics even less useful for many monsters than it already is[n't]....)
Let's look at what sort of creatures are typically immune to tripping, and then determine if Grease is being unreasonably nerfed.
Snakes, and oozes. Those are the main groups of creatures that you can't trip. The prone condition doesn't make much sense for them since they're always "not on their feet" anyway. It should be noted that they can still be flat-footed by moving through grease. Snakes might lose Dex, oozes usually don't have any Dex to lose. And it's not like you gain anything from an ooze with no Dex bonus to AC. The main advantage of a target having no Dex bonus to AC is that you can sneak attack them or perform some other sort of sneak, disarm, steal, or knockdown, all of which are useless against oozes.
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Selvaxri wrote: Is being "knocked prone" different or the same as being tripped? No. You can be knocked prone from other things, such as a successful Overrun applied to you or being struck by an Awesome Blow combat maneuver, or falling and taking lethal damage. Likewise you can trip a target which is already prone, though at no real benefit (unless you have Greater Trip which triggers on a successful trip attempt). Tripping just applies the prone condition to a target if successful and not already prone, so you can't AoO trip a target as they attempt to get up to keep them down.
In the case of the examples you listed you are correct, they would knock the target prone without acting as a Trip attempt. However in the case of Pommel Strike it's a generic non-brand CMB check, which means any feats that would boost tripping wouldn't apply to the check.
Selvaxri wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: Your Monk should definitely take Vicious Stomp, maybe Greater Trip, too, if you want to go that way. ...As for the dwarf in question- it's not my place to recommend how someone builds their character, and it seems that she already knows what she's doing.
Building the PC is not the purpose of this thread, Knocked Prove vs Tripping is. I'm not really giving character-building advice to someone who isn't here so much as I'm answering your question in terms of related Feats a character might take. The FAQ I cited as evidence speaks to your question in just those terms.
You shouldn't give your fellow player character building advice if you don't feel comfortable doing so. But I don't think your doing that is necessarily intrinsically inappropriate. You were saying that the GM ruled against her gaining Attacks of Opportunity. A tip on feats she can take so she'll get them next time doesn't exactly seem out-of-line. But you know the situation better than I do. If you don't think it's right, then it isn't.
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