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As far as I'm aware, you've always been able to have the real character contribute wealth and PP.Since the Pregen Chronicle isn't being applied yet, your lower level character would not suffer anything until the Chronicle was added to your stack.Wouldn't that be the same with death effects then? In other words one doesn't deal with the death effect UNTIL the chronicle is applied? But if that was true, then we wouldn't even be talking about what the "real" character has to contribute to the cost of dealing with the death consequences. Why would it be that only some effects get applied immediately and others only when the chronicle is applied?You've presumably read my other comments up thread.
It is impossible to have the actual character contribute at all.
If Campaign Leadership intends to somehow have an actual character contribute wealth, they're going to have to describe how it can be done.
I'll ask again, then.
How?
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Apologies for the negativity.
I've been accused by some as always complaining and negative. Thing is, pragmatism often comes off as negativity. If somebody doesn't call out the BS when they see it, and offer up solutions, then nobody knows. That just pisses everybody off eventually.
You go ahead and keep being negative.
RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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As far as I'm aware, you've always been able to have the real character contribute wealth and PP.
My understanding is opposite yours, Andrew. And I'm sure I'm not alone. I have *never* had a player suggest that he could pull together resources from one of his own characters to bring back a pre-gen at the table.
Indeed, in previous discussions on the boards, one of the acknowledged weaknesses of playing a pre-gen is that it does not have the resources of the players' regular characters.
If I can pay gold and prestige to, say, up-equip a pre-gen before an adventure, or if boons for the character were available for the pre-gen, that radically changes the nature of pre-gen play.
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Apologies for the negativity.I've been accused by some as always complaining and negative. Thing is, pragmatism often comes off as negativity. If somebody doesn't call out the BS when they see it, and offer up solutions, then nobody knows. That just pisses everybody off eventually.
You go ahead and keep being negative.
It's hard for us Tengu to ever come across as positive.
No lips or eyebrows to express ourselves.
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^^^ this.
On top of that, it's a logistics matter.
I have no conception of how I could possibly fill out such a Chronicle.
Other ppl keep claiming that they have, so it should be easy to explain?
Usually by writing down how much gold was contributed by the player, and how much was contributed by the other players, as well as any pregen wealth that was used. I've never actually seen pregen wealth used to clear conditions in any of my games. I think I was present for a TPK that used pregen wealth to bring the non-pregen characters back, but I didn't oversee the chronicles either.
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Usually by writing down how much gold was contributed by the player, and how much was contributed by the other players, as well as any pregen wealth that was used.
I have no conception of how I could possibly fill out such a Chronicle.
That's understandable:
Chronicle gold
Selling gear
Contributions
All totally doable with just a pen and a Chronicle.
It's this "extra" bit that other people, like Andrew Christian, seem to have experience with.
That's what I'm not understanding.
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Nope.
Since the Chronicle must be held until your character is of the appropriate level, it isn't added to your stack yet, and you have no access to anything earned prior until then.
Not to mention that you probably don't have any of your Chronicles with you, so you likely don't have an accurate account of what the character had anyways.
And what would you write? "Yeah I totally have 10k on that character"?
It's not feasible.
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Since the condition must be cleared before you leave the table, either you use the characters wealth to clear the death or the character is dead. You would mark down the expenditure on your ITS and continue on from there, receiving whatever you get from the chronicle when you get there.
Most of the time, a low level character isn't going to have the wealth to spend anyway, so the "you haven't applied the chronicle yet and can't use personal wealth" problem is irrelevant.
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Most of the time, a low level character isn't going to have the wealth to spend anyway, so the "you haven't applied the chronicle yet and can't use personal wealth" problem is irrelevant.
More than once I've played a pregen for a 7-11 for a character that was level 6 at the time. Though if all of the numbers stated previously are correct, a level 7 pregen can afford to raise themselves (assuming they finished enough of the scenario to be awarded enough gold to cover it off of that single chronicle sheet (plus their gear)).
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I wouldn't call a level 6 'low level' either. Mostly, I'm trying to puzzle out if I've been 'doing it wrong' all this time. The fact that we don't often use pregens has probably kept it unanswered for the better part of my time.
That's definitely the norm, here, too. Pregens are used almost exclusively by new players. In the couple of very rare occasions above where I'd already played everything else and the only thing available was a character in a tier that I didn't have I ended up playing a pregen. Now I've got a backlog of characters I don't see that needing to happen for me again.
I have seen people suggest that "they can play Kyra" if we need a healer, but I can't actually recall when that's been necessary.
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Most of the time, a low level character isn't going to have the wealth to spend anyway, so the "you haven't applied the chronicle yet and can't use personal wealth" problem is irrelevant.More than once I've played a pregen for a 7-11 for a character that was level 6 at the time. Though if all of the numbers stated previously are correct, a level 7 pregen can afford to raise themselves (assuming they finished enough of the scenario to be awarded enough gold to cover it off of that single chronicle sheet (plus their gear)).
Why are you playing a pregen in the first place? Why not wait until your character is in tier?
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What if, we were to handle pregen death by filling in the cost of clearing the conditions as a negative number in the 'Gold Spent' box on the chronicle being handed out, and left it at that?
When the player fills in the rest of the sheet, whether that be immediate or much later on (depending on the level of the character being applied to), the end total has to be a positive number or the character is declared dead at that point?
- People don't have to bring the chronicles for characters that they don't think they will need.
- People don't risk losing a character due to low gold just because they had to play a high-level pregen.
- You gain the chance to plan ahead to have enough gold/prestige to save the character.
Would that be the golden triple of: simple, provides risk, doesn't put people off?
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Why are you playing a pregen in the first place? Why not wait until your character is in tier?Most of the time, a low level character isn't going to have the wealth to spend anyway, so the "you haven't applied the chronicle yet and can't use personal wealth" problem is irrelevant.More than once I've played a pregen for a 7-11 for a character that was level 6 at the time. Though if all of the numbers stated previously are correct, a level 7 pregen can afford to raise themselves (assuming they finished enough of the scenario to be awarded enough gold to cover it off of that single chronicle sheet (plus their gear)).
At our location, if you pass up a chance to play a 7-11, you've probably missed your only chance. It will only be offered again if someone really wants to GM it. Maybe I'll catch it at a con in a year or two, but most likely I'll be GMing that slot.
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Why are you playing a pregen in the first place? Why not wait until your character is in tier?Most of the time, a low level character isn't going to have the wealth to spend anyway, so the "you haven't applied the chronicle yet and can't use personal wealth" problem is irrelevant.More than once I've played a pregen for a 7-11 for a character that was level 6 at the time. Though if all of the numbers stated previously are correct, a level 7 pregen can afford to raise themselves (assuming they finished enough of the scenario to be awarded enough gold to cover it off of that single chronicle sheet (plus their gear)).at a guess I would bet it is because the game is a 7-11 and the choices are:
a) play a Pregen.
or
b) go home.or some version of that.
Perhaps he wants that chronicle on that PC, and if he doesn't play it now, the likelihood of it being scheduled again is very slim. (maybe the group he plays with only have 5 to 9 members, and if 6 of them play something they can't get enough players who haven't played it to make a table.)
a) play a Pregen.
or
b) go home.
This.
The only character in range was a character I played exclusively with my wife. She wasn't there then. Now I don't have that problem so much anymore with an entire portfolio of characters, but then that was my option.
(also my post was further clarified in the post just above yours (jon's))
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To nosig & pH unbalanceds' point - I think those of us that get to enjoy the fertile plains of Minnesota and our 15+ tables of games every week do not understand the limited replay opportunities of other regions.
Agreed. It should be standard procedure to accept what other people say are their experiences of play. We have vastly different play cultures and habits by nation and state, and most of us don't get to experience anywhere near the full spectrum.
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The biggest problem I see with pregens is with Bonekeep, players have taken pregens because they are scared to lose their actual characters. If that is a problem driving this can't they just update rules so pregens are not allowed in Bonekeep-type modules?
How much of this is a problem with players, and how much of this is the design/purpose of scenarios like Bonekeep?
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As far as I'm aware, you've always been able to have the real character contribute wealth and PP.Since the Pregen Chronicle isn't being applied yet, your lower level character would not suffer anything until the Chronicle was added to your stack.Wouldn't that be the same with death effects then? In other words one doesn't deal with the death effect UNTIL the chronicle is applied? But if that was true, then we wouldn't even be talking about what the "real" character has to contribute to the cost of dealing with the death consequences. Why would it be that only some effects get applied immediately and others only when the chronicle is applied?You've presumably read my other comments up thread.
It is impossible to have the actual character contribute at all.
If Campaign Leadership intends to somehow have an actual character contribute wealth, they're going to have to describe how it can be done.
I'll ask again, then.
How?
Not sure what you mean by, "how?"
You just use your characters gold and PP. It's that simple.
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Not sure what you mean by, "how?"
You just use your characters gold and PP. It's that simple.
How does it work mechanically, step by step, please?
Right now I'm kind of leaning towards Nefreet's interpetation which is
Pregen Death --> Some strange math thingy that's obscure happens --> Somehow characters have to pay a 'virtual tax' for a scenario they weren't EVEN at.
I'm not understanding the process, would you please line it out in specific so we're not running around in circles for the next two weeks?
Thank you.
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To nosig & pH unbalanceds' point - I think those of us that get to enjoy the fertile plains of Minnesota and our 15+ tables of games every week do not understand the limited replay opportunities of other regions.
In the frigid north home of Anchorage Alaska Lodge we might have enough folks show for a second table soon, very exiting times!
That make a grand total of two tables every two weeks, if everyone shows.
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Not sure what you mean by, "how?"
You just use your characters gold and PP. It's that simple.
How does it work mechanically, step by step, please?
Right now I'm kind of leaning towards Nefreet's interpetation which is
Pregen Death --> Some strange math thingy that's obscure happens --> Somehow characters have to pay a 'virtual tax' for a scenario they weren't EVEN at.
I'm not understanding the process, would you please line it out in specific so we're not running around in circles for the next two weeks?
Thank you.
Pregen dies.
You spend your characters gold to fix the oredicament.
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Pregen dies.
You spend your characters gold to fix the oredicament.
This is not helpful.
There are seven pages in this thread, most of which are extremely critical of this addition to the guide for very good and varied reasons. Wei Ji, and Nefreet, and Chris Mortika, and a slew of others including other venture officers have asked how this mechanically is supposed to work.
So please answer the question instead of being snide about it.
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Pregen dies.
You spend your characters gold to fix the oredicament.
This is not helpful.
There are seven pages in this thread, most of which are extremely critical of this addition to the guide for very good and varied reasons. Wei Ji, and Nefreet, and Chris Mortika, and a slew of others including other venture officers have asked how this mechanically is supposed to work.
So please answer the question instead of being snide about it.
I'm not being snide.
I'm extremely confused on how this is confusing.
What mechanically have I not provided? What mechanically is missing?
Literally, just spend your character's cash. There is no secret top it. No special mechanics other than you track the expenditure like any other you would make.
Explain to me what's actually missing there and I'll fill it in.
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RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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Andrew, how is the player supposed to spend gold, when the PC and all attendant paperwork is not at the table?
Two weeks ago, when a player ran a pre-gen at a table, she walked away with a Chronicle sheet that wasn't all-the-way filled out. (It gets assigned to xxxxxx-05, a monk PC, but at the point the player walks away from the table, she doesn't know the monk's running total of gold, so she can't calculate the new current gold amount...)
Now, we need to know whether the PC has enough money to survive. If today's Chronicle sheet is going to be held for the PC, until he reaches an appropriate character level, then we can't use gold off that Chronicle sheet. So the PC has to have 1000 / 2000 gold, immediately available.
So, without the PC and the most recent Chronicle sheet, how is the player supposed to know how much gold the PC has on-hand?
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If I run a Pregen lets say a Lvl 4 pregen, the character I am planning to credit the play to is a Lvl 2.
I cannot apply credit to my Lvl 2 character until he is Lvl 4 correct? The chronicle sheet is held, ie not applied until the character makes it to 4th.
So how do I use wealth from a character (Lvl 2) that cannot legally gain credit form the chronicle (Lvl 4 pregen) and use that wealth to that very chronicle?
Would I place gold (from my Lvl 2 character) in Gold Gained for the chronicle sheet (the one the Lvl 2 Character has no connection to until he is Lvl 4)?
How do we verify that said Lvl 2 has the gold indicated when a hefty amount of of people have said they use pregens when they leave their character?
These are but a few of the issues people are trying to express.
Hopefully the disconnect from using wealth from a character that cannot access a chronicle on said chronicle sheet is not lost on this discussion.
Thanks
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Also what would happen if i have my XXXXXX-2 Lvl 1 character (never played) but due to playing pregens i have chronicles for 2 Lvl 4s and 2 Lvl 7s waiting for the character, once of course he reaches the appropriate level. So i Play a Pregen lets say a Lvl 4 and the pregen dies.
This character has no wealth but has 4 chronicles waiting to be applied. He could use one of the chronicles to grant the character 500gp but that is not enough to cover the wealth needed to contribute to the cost of raising the pregen.
Can I access the chronicle sheets that my character doesn't have access to to pay for the cost?
If yes tell me how this works, if no tell me why I can access a chronicle (for dead pregen) to spend wealth but not to chronicles i have earned but also can't access to use wealth they have.
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Venture-Captain, Ireland—Belfast
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There are number of concerns expressed. From the feedback I have had I think there are two matters causing more debate than others - on this issue anyway!
1. If the conditions on the chronicle awarded for the pregen have to be resolved when it is assigned: are any of the resources on that sheet available to cover the cost that the persistent character must bear or must all of it come from the resources of the persistent character's already applied chronicles?
2. If resources from the already applied chronicles are the source from which the condition removal must be born does that mean the chron stack of the persistent character must be there before a player may use a pregen this way?
As I have mentioned before I have no inside track on how this will be resolved but I am confident that these and other queries from the new guide will be cleared up in the near future. I think we should allow campaign leadership a chance to catch their breath as they return to the backlog of work built up over Gencon while still recovering from the weekend itself!
W
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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I'm not being snide.
I'm extremely confused on how this is confusing.
What mechanically have I not provided? What mechanically is missing?
Literally, just spend your character's cash. There is no secret top it. No special mechanics other than you track the expenditure like any other you would make.
Explain to me what's actually missing there and I'll fill it in.
Fair enough.
Suppose I have a L3 character with chronicles #1-6 detailing my first six adventures. I saved up a lot of money for some reason.
I play a L4 pregen. He dies. I want to keep the character alive so I try to go about raising him. As I read the guide, I do the following:
The player can use the pregenerated character’s funds—including selling her gear at half price—to pay for these spellcasting services.
Clear enough. Gear and any funds obtained during the scenario, like loot/scenario gold awards.
In addition, the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end.
This is money that belongs to my real PC, i.e. starting cash and what I earned during chronicles #1-6?
The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute a minimum amount of gp before spending the pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character, 1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.
So not only can I use my real PC's funds, I must do so.
Now here's were I'm confused. Where do I note the funds drawn from my real PC? Not on Chronicle #6 - that was last time, presumably the GM checked my math and signed off on it. On this scenario's chronicle sheet then? But I'm not applying that one yet, I still need to earn 3XP more before I get to L4 and apply it. On an inventory tracking sheet? But what chronicle # do I note the purchase for?
Let's say I pay the money and play again next week. I get a new chronicle sheet, and it becomes #7 in the order in which they're applied. Now there's a mismatch between the amount of gold with which I ended #6 and the amount with which I started #7. Because I spent at least 1000gp as the real PC's contribution to raising, but that belongs on neither #6 nor #7.
So that's what I'm confused about. I can see the general intent of the rule, but I don't see how to run the logistics of it. I'd think we need a dummy chronicle sheet inserted between XP 6 and XP 7 to more cleanly administer this "dream of future death". Especially if the real PC has to sell off gear to finance his minimum contribution to revival.
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Andrew, how is the player supposed to spend gold, when the PC and all attendant paperwork is not at the table?
Two weeks ago, when a player ran a pre-gen at a table, she walked away with a Chronicle sheet that wasn't all-the-way filled out. (It gets assigned to xxxxxx-05, a monk PC, but at the point the player walks away from the table, she doesn't know the monk's running total of gold, so she can't calculate the new current gold amount...)
Now, we need to know whether the PC has enough money to survive. If today's Chronicle sheet is going to be held for the PC, until he reaches an appropriate character level, then we can't use gold off that Chronicle sheet. So the PC has to have 1000 / 2000 gold, immediately available.
So, without the PC and the most recent Chronicle sheet, how is the player supposed to know how much gold the PC has on-hand?
Ok, now I think I'm starting to see what people are saying. So let me try to explain in detail what I'm saying.
1) The pregen is not really a separate character. Its a proxy stat block for your character. Whether that is because your character isn't there and you want to play, your character doesn't fit into the Tier, or you just want to try out a new class, the pregen is not really a separate entity mechanically at a meta/paperwork level.
2) Before the ability to transfer the pregen credit to an unused number existed, and before you were allowed to sell the pregen's equipment, it was always intended that you spend your character's resources on getting a raise dead. I'll do my best to track down all these old languages from past guides so we can see the progression of the rule.
3) I don't believe it was ever in the guide, but Mike posted at one time (and I'll try to find it) that using cash on the chronicle sheet earned by playing a pregen (proxy stat block) is fine (and expected). In other words, the earned cash is available to spend, even if the chronicle sheet would be applied at a later date.
4) Ideally the person has their character's paperwork with them. This creates no issues if they do. However, it would make some sense that part of the reason the person is even playing a pregen is because they don't have that paperwork with them for a variety of reasons. So regardless of whether you use that character's resources or not, you still have to record the expenditure of some cash from that character per the Guide 8.0.
So how do you do so?
You mark the expenditures on the character's ITS and the chronicle sheet earned by playing the pregen (proxy stat block).
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
5) As a GM, especially in a local situation where you see the same players over and over, you can "extend" the end of the scenario until the next time you see the player. And then you can help them create the correct annotations on their paperwork.
At a convention, you could do similarly if you are sure they will be back, or have them work with the organizer/HQ (this likely would not work at Gen Con, HQ is way too busy). This is a bit more iffy, especially if its the last slot of the con and its a player you've never met before. But I'd rather err on the side of allowing a player to play their character than killing their character off because of paperwork.
6) So it is simple, if your pregen dies, you spend your character's cash.
--------------------------------------------
Remember, the assumption in the past, was that you only could spend your character's resources. The ability to do so never changed, they just gave different avenues to spend cash or to reassign to an unused number.
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If I run a Pregen lets say a Lvl 4 pregen, the character I am planning to credit the play to is a Lvl 2.
I cannot apply credit to my Lvl 2 character until he is Lvl 4 correct? The chronicle sheet is held, ie not applied until the character makes it to 4th.So how do I use wealth from a character (Lvl 2) that cannot legally gain credit form the chronicle (Lvl 4 pregen) and use that wealth to that very chronicle?
Would I place gold (from my Lvl 2 character) in Gold Gained for the chronicle sheet (the one the Lvl 2 Character has no connection to until he is Lvl 4)?
How do we verify that said Lvl 2 has the gold indicated when a hefty amount of of people have said they use pregens when they leave their character?
These are but a few of the issues people are trying to express.
Hopefully the disconnect from using wealth from a character that cannot access a chronicle on said chronicle sheet is not lost on this discussion.
Thanks
If you look at the pregen as a proxy stat block instead of a separate discrete character, then some of these issues go away. This is a meta and paperwork issue. Not a verisimilitude issue.
Additionally, you can (and should) record your character's expenditure of gold on the chronicle sheet that you earned by playing the pregen (proxy stat block). This may cause an "out of time" accounting issue on your ITS, as one of the line items will be for a future chronicle sheet.
But if you are worried about some future GM doing an audit calling shenanigans, just have your current GM mark that chronicle as a pregen chronicle and then explain why this cash expenditure appears "too early" on your ITS. Because you can spend cash earned on that chronicle sheet, the mandatory expenditure that must come from the character, is likely going to be zero unless you are playing a level 1 pregen in sub-tier 1-2.
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Also what would happen if i have my XXXXXX-2 Lvl 1 character (never played) but due to playing pregens i have chronicles for 2 Lvl 4s and 2 Lvl 7s waiting for the character, once of course he reaches the appropriate level. So i Play a Pregen lets say a Lvl 4 and the pregen dies.
This character has no wealth but has 4 chronicles waiting to be applied. He could use one of the chronicles to grant the character 500gp but that is not enough to cover the wealth needed to contribute to the cost of raising the pregen.
Can I access the chronicle sheets that my character doesn't have access to to pay for the cost?
If yes tell me how this works, if no tell me why I can access a chronicle (for dead pregen) to spend wealth but not to chronicles i have earned but also can't access to use wealth they have.
This is a good question. I don't believe this exact situation (that is actually fairly likely to occur) was considered.
Here is likely how I'd rule it (and will be exploring language in any future Guide Revisions with the Guide Revision Team to clean it up):
You can use the "future" chronicle from your pregen (proxy stat block) for the scenario in which the event (death, poison, disease, curse, et. al.) happened. Because that's the chronicle the clearing of the condition and any expenditure would be marked on.
You may not use any other "future" chronicles, because those have no current bearing on your character and was not the chronicle on which the current event is noted.
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I'm not being snide.
I'm extremely confused on how this is confusing.
What mechanically have I not provided? What mechanically is missing?
Literally, just spend your character's cash. There is no secret top it. No special mechanics other than you track the expenditure like any other you would make.
Explain to me what's actually missing there and I'll fill it in.
Fair enough.
Suppose I have a L3 character with chronicles #1-6 detailing my first six adventures. I saved up a lot of money for some reason.
I play a L4 pregen. He dies. I want to keep the character alive so I try to go about raising him. As I read the guide, I do the following:
The player can use the pregenerated character’s funds—including selling her gear at half price—to pay for these spellcasting services.Clear enough. Gear and any funds obtained during the scenario, like loot/scenario gold awards.
In addition, the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end.This is money that belongs to my real PC, i.e. starting cash and what I earned during chronicles #1-6?
The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute a minimum amount of gp before spending the pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character, 1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.So not only can I use my real PC's funds, I must do so.
Now here's were I'm confused. Where do I note the funds drawn from my real PC? Not on Chronicle #6 - that was last time, presumably the GM checked my math and signed off on it. On this scenario's chronicle sheet then? But I'm not applying that one yet, I still need to earn 3XP more before I get to L4 and apply it. On an inventory tracking sheet? But what chronicle # do I note the purchase for?
Let's say I pay the money and play again next week. I get a new chronicle sheet, and it becomes #7 in the order in which they're applied. Now there's a mismatch between the amount of gold with which I ended #6 and the amount with which I started #7. Because I spent at least 1000gp as the real PC's contribution to raising, but that belongs on neither #6 nor #7.
So that's what I'm confused about. I can see the general intent of the rule, but I don't see how to run the logistics of it. I'd think we need a dummy chronicle sheet inserted between XP 6 and XP 7 to more cleanly administer this "dream of future death". Especially if the real PC has to sell off gear to finance his minimum contribution to revival.
These are all of the questions I had as well. Thank you so much for eloquently wording them.