Can pregen deaths still be reassigned?


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Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

I'm not being snide.

I'm extremely confused on how this is confusing.

What mechanically have I not provided? What mechanically is missing?

Literally, just spend your character's cash. There is no secret top it. No special mechanics other than you track the expenditure like any other you would make.

Explain to me what's actually missing there and I'll fill it in.

Fair enough.

Suppose I have a L3 character with chronicles #1-6 detailing my first six adventures. I saved up a lot of money for some reason.

I play a L4 pregen. He dies. I want to keep the character alive so I try to go about raising him. As I read the guide, I do the following:

Quote:
The player can use the pregenerated character’s funds—including selling her gear at half price—to pay for these spellcasting services.

Clear enough. Gear and any funds obtained during the scenario, like loot/scenario gold awards.

Quote:
In addition, the player can contribute the associated Roleplaying Guild character’s resources (gp and Prestige Points) to this end.

This is money that belongs to my real PC, i.e. starting cash and what I earned during chronicles #1-6?

Quote:
The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute a minimum amount of gp before spending the pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character, 1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.

So not only can I use my real PC's funds, I must do so.

Now here's were I'm confused. Where do I note the funds drawn from my real PC? Not on Chronicle #6 - that was last time, presumably the GM checked my math and signed off on it. On this scenario's chronicle sheet then? But I'm not applying that one yet, I still need to earn 3XP more before I get to L4 and apply it. On an inventory tracking sheet? But what chronicle # do I note the purchase for?

Let's say I pay the money and play again next week. I get a new chronicle sheet, and...

As I noted above, you mark all these expenditures on both your ITS and the chronicle sheet that you earned by playing the pregen (proxy stat block).

It doesn't matter if the chronicle sheet has been applied yet or not. You would still notate expenditures on that chronicle sheet. I can see how this could create an accounting issue with carrying over existing gold values from one chronicle sheet to the next. For expenditures marked on a future chronicle sheet but affecting your current amount of gold, this will cause an accounting issue.

So you should probably note that expenditure on your last earned and applied chronicle sheet with an annotation indicating where its coming from and which future chronicle sheet that expenditure was required. Just make sure you don't spend the money twice. So a reference annotation on the future chronicle sheet, referring back to your applied one, would be necessary to show where the gold expenditure took place.

----------------------

As long as the expenditure of resources takes place, and it allows a GM to easily look at your chronicles and ITS and see where all the expenditures happened and why, then it really doesn't matter if you apply that expenditure to the future chronicle sheet or an already applied one.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
If this is allowed, why do we need anything else?

The gold earned and the gear sold from a level 4 pregen is not enough to bring back a character in most cases.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
It doesn't matter if the chronicle sheet has been applied yet or not.

You state this so simply, but I don't understand how you can.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Andrew Christian wrote:

4) Ideally the person has their character's paperwork with them. This creates no issues if they do. However, it would make some sense that part of the reason the person is even playing a pregen is because they don't have that paperwork with them for a variety of reasons. So regardless of whether you use that character's resources or not, you still have to record the expenditure of some cash from that character per the Guide 8.0.

So how do you do so?

You mark the expenditures on the character's ITS and the chronicle sheet earned by playing the pregen (proxy stat block).

If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.

I think this should be re-thought/clarified, because it has implications that reach farther than you probably intended.

Say I get to the game and find out I forgot the paperwork for my character so I have to play a pregen. In that case I probably won't be carrying my favourite pregen on my so I have to make do with whatever is locally available.

Then suppose I die. By this explanation, since I don't have my papers with me, I can't pay the mandatory contribution from my real PC, so I can't get raised from the dead.

Because I play a pregen because I don't have my real character with me, he's in more lethal danger than if I played a pregen for another reason ("try something new", "high level") while having my real PC at hand. I don't think such an absentee death paradox is what is intended.

Involuntary pregen play shouldn't be weirdly more lethal than voluntary pregen play.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
If this is allowed, why do we need anything else?
The gold earned and the gear sold from a level 4 pregen is not enough to bring back a character in most cases.

Assuming we can spend gold we don't yet have, why must we?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
William Boyle wrote:

There are number of concerns expressed. From the feedback I have had I think there are two matters causing more debate than others - on this issue anyway!

1. If the conditions on the chronicle awarded for the pregen have to be resolved when it is assigned: are any of the resources on that sheet available to cover the cost that the persistent character must bear or must all of it come from the resources of the persistent character's already applied chronicles?

All resources on the chronicle sheet earned by the pregen may be used to resolve the conditions incurred during that scenario. Additionally, resources from the character must be spent. Whether what is earned on the chronicle sheet is enough for that mandatory expenditure or not is irrelevant. You can use it, or use cash directly from your character.

William Boyle wrote:
2. If resources from the already applied chronicles are the source from which the condition removal must be born does that mean the chron stack of the persistent character must be there before a player may use a pregen this way?

Yes. Otherwise just use the cash earned on the future chronicle sheet to cover the mandatory expenditure. If there is not enough cash for some reason, and the character's paperwork is not present, then there is a problem with spending that character's existing cash.

As a GM, particularly for a local that you know and play with / GM for often, you can defer that paperwork until the next time you see them. Making sure they understand they can't play the character until this has been resolved.

Remember, the scenario doesn't "end" until the GM says it does. Please don't take this to the extreme, if this is done reasonably and with common sense, and with good intent, then it all works out fine.

William Boyle wrote:

As I have mentioned before I have no inside track on how this will be resolved but I am confident that these and other queries from the new guide will be cleared up in the near future. I think we should allow campaign leadership a chance to catch their breath as they return to the backlog of work built up over Gencon while still recovering from the weekend itself!

W

Indeed, the Guide Revision Team will likely be starting to look at all the new things in the Guide tonight, now that I'm somewhat recovered from Gen Con.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
It doesn't matter if the chronicle sheet has been applied yet or not.
You state this so simply, but I don't understand how you can.

I don't understand how you can't.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

4) Ideally the person has their character's paperwork with them. This creates no issues if they do. However, it would make some sense that part of the reason the person is even playing a pregen is because they don't have that paperwork with them for a variety of reasons. So regardless of whether you use that character's resources or not, you still have to record the expenditure of some cash from that character per the Guide 8.0.

So how do you do so?

You mark the expenditures on the character's ITS and the chronicle sheet earned by playing the pregen (proxy stat block).

If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.

I think this should be re-thought/clarified, because it has implications that reach farther than you probably intended.

Say I get to the game and find out I forgot the paperwork for my character so I have to play a pregen. In that case I probably won't be carrying my favourite pregen on my so I have to make do with whatever is locally available.

Then suppose I die. By this explanation, since I don't have my papers with me, I can't pay the mandatory contribution from my real PC, so I can't get raised from the dead.

Because I play a pregen because I don't have my real character with me, he's in more lethal danger than if I played a pregen for another reason ("try something new", "high level") while having my real PC at hand. I don't think such an absentee death paradox is what is intended.

Involuntary pregen play shouldn't be weirdly more lethal than voluntary pregen play.

You probably missed where I indicated that the cash earned on the chronicle sheet earned through pregen play is considered your character's cash for the mandatory expenditure.

That cash may be used for the mandatory expenditure and any other expenditure you wish to use.

And you also probably missed the part where I indicated that a GM could "defer" the end of the scenario until the next time the two of you meet. Obviously this will not be possible but for a local level.

No rule on this will be able to fully address all potential issues. And yes, some situations will incur a greater risk of permanent death.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
If this is allowed, why do we need anything else?
The gold earned and the gear sold from a level 4 pregen is not enough to bring back a character in most cases.
Assuming we can spend gold we don't yet have, why must we?

Because that's what the campaign leadership team has decided.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
If this is allowed, why do we need anything else?
The gold earned and the gear sold from a level 4 pregen is not enough to bring back a character in most cases.
Assuming we can spend gold we don't yet have, why must we?
Because that's what the campaign leadership team has decided.

Except you stated an exception earlier.

If there's an exception for one circumstance, why wouldn't everyone just always claim that exception?

I then see no point to these added rules.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
If this is allowed, why do we need anything else?
The gold earned and the gear sold from a level 4 pregen is not enough to bring back a character in most cases.
Assuming we can spend gold we don't yet have, why must we?
Because that's what the campaign leadership team has decided.

Except you stated an exception earlier.

If there's an exception for one circumstance, why wouldn't everyone just always claim that exception?

I then see no point to these added rules.

Elucidate which exception you think I gave above that applies to this that has any bearing on taking this to an extreme?

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
It doesn't matter if the chronicle sheet has been applied yet or not.
You state this so simply, but I don't understand how you can.
I don't understand how you can't.

Clearly, otherwise this thread wouldn't have gone on so long. I'm hoping this discussion isn't as confusing to John and Tonya.


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I'd like to posit a scenario, to make sure I have what you're saying correct:

Let's say I show up for a game day and discover I've left my character sheets behind. No problem, I'll play a pregen. Let's say for the sake of argument that I'm running a level 7 pregen and assigning the credit to my level 6 character.

Now, things go badly. The entire party gets wiped out. Result: 0 gold on the chronicle, and I need a body recovery to boot. Now, per this new ruling, the gold and prestige have to come from my character. I believe my character has the gold and prestige to cover this, but I'm not certain (and the character's at home).

1. How do I resolve having my character pay for these items if I don't have the info there?

2. Is it your opinion that if I don't have my character present, I am required to mark him as dead in this scenario, even if my character would be capable of paying all costs?

The first issue seems to make an impossible task mandatory, and the second seems to defeat the entire purpose of making pregens available.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
If this is allowed, why do we need anything else?
The gold earned and the gear sold from a level 4 pregen is not enough to bring back a character in most cases.
Assuming we can spend gold we don't yet have, why must we?
Because that's what the campaign leadership team has decided.

Except you stated an exception earlier.

If there's an exception for one circumstance, why wouldn't everyone just always claim that exception?

I then see no point to these added rules.

Elucidate which exception you think I gave above that applies to this that has any bearing on taking this to an extreme?

It's in this very quote.

Clearly we disagree on what is considered "extreme".

The much simpler solution I proposed earlier, which is the exception you stated as acceptable, is to use the gold earned on the Chronicle *only* when the character's Chronicle stack is not present.

So, why wouldn't everyone just state that their character's paperwork is at home?

I know I would.

And so then the question becomes, "Why do we need these additional rules?"

Why not just simplify this whole argument to something that's easily handled with one pen, and one piece of paper?

To explain the convoluted, out-of-order process you're advocating would take up an entire page in the Guide.

Mine takes up one, maybe two sentences.

The Exchange

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Postulate : We need a rule that is clear, concise, and simple, and which also doesn't discourage people from playing a pregen in situations where it's helpful to have them do so.

We've already talked about completing the paperwork next time you see a GM if you don't have your chronicle stack with you. We've also talked about the pregen being a proxy for your real character at that point in future time.

Why not just write down the cost of clearing the conditions on the chronicle gained by playing the pregen, and any gold gained (including by selling equipment) and worry about whether the character is dead at the point in future time when the chronicle stack catches up and the player can show the correctly completed stack to a GM?

It's simple, and it doesn't penalise someone who is helpfully trying to get a high-level game to run by killing off their lower level character prematurely.

Yes, some people will simply throw away the chronicle gained by playing the pregen. I suggest that is less bad for PFS than the result of forcing people to handle the conditions using only the resources on the pregen and the chronicle. If we open the door to allowing people to use not present chronicles, then it increase the risk of cheating anyway.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.
If this is allowed, why do we need anything else?
The gold earned and the gear sold from a level 4 pregen is not enough to bring back a character in most cases.
Assuming we can spend gold we don't yet have, why must we?
Because that's what the campaign leadership team has decided.

Except you stated an exception earlier.

If there's an exception for one circumstance, why wouldn't everyone just always claim that exception?

I then see no point to these added rules.

Elucidate which exception you think I gave above that applies to this that has any bearing on taking this to an extreme?

It's in this very quote.

Clearly we disagree on what is considered "extreme".

The much simpler solution I proposed earlier, which is the exception you stated as acceptable, is to use the gold earned on the Chronicle *only* when the character's Chronicle stack is not present.

So, why wouldn't everyone just state that their character's paperwork is at home?

I know I would.

And so then the question becomes, "Why do we need these additional rules?"

Why not just simplify this whole argument to something that's easily handled with one pen, and one piece of paper?

To explain the convoluted, out-of-order process you're advocating would take up an entire page in the Guide.

Mine takes up one, maybe two sentences.

I'm not sure what you think will take up a ton of language and why you want to remove options to bring a character back to life.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Andrew, please accept that your position is unclear, unsupported, not understood, and will require at least as many words as you have typed to explain it in the Guide.

I think I'm a reasonable person, and you think you're a reasonable person, but if we don't understand why the other doesn't understand, then doesn't that signal there's a problem somewhere?

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Andrew Christian wrote:
Lau Bannenberg wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

4) Ideally the person has their character's paperwork with them. This creates no issues if they do. However, it would make some sense that part of the reason the person is even playing a pregen is because they don't have that paperwork with them for a variety of reasons. So regardless of whether you use that character's resources or not, you still have to record the expenditure of some cash from that character per the Guide 8.0.

So how do you do so?

You mark the expenditures on the character's ITS and the chronicle sheet earned by playing the pregen (proxy stat block).

If the character's paperpwork is not present, then you can only work with the gold earned on the chronicle sheet and the pregen's gear.

I think this should be re-thought/clarified, because it has implications that reach farther than you probably intended.

Say I get to the game and find out I forgot the paperwork for my character so I have to play a pregen. In that case I probably won't be carrying my favourite pregen on my so I have to make do with whatever is locally available.

Then suppose I die. By this explanation, since I don't have my papers with me, I can't pay the mandatory contribution from my real PC, so I can't get raised from the dead.

Because I play a pregen because I don't have my real character with me, he's in more lethal danger than if I played a pregen for another reason ("try something new", "high level") while having my real PC at hand. I don't think such an absentee death paradox is what is intended.

Involuntary pregen play shouldn't be weirdly more lethal than voluntary pregen play.

You probably missed where I indicated that the cash earned on the chronicle sheet earned through pregen play is considered your character's cash for the mandatory expenditure.

That cash may be used for the mandatory expenditure and any other expenditure you wish to use.

And you also probably missed the part where I indicated that a GM could "defer" the end of the scenario until the next time the two of you meet. Obviously this will not be possible but for a local level.

No rule on this will be able to fully address all potential issues. And yes, some situations will incur a greater risk of permanent death.

That wasn't as obvious to me as it may have been to you. Consider this sentence in the guide:

Quote:
The player can use the pregenerated character’s funds—including selling her gear at half price—to pay for these spellcasting services.

I was under the impression that the money found during the pregen game were part of the pregen's funds, rather than the real character. If these are considered part of the real character's funds then paying the "contribution" is indeed a lot more doable for any PC, assuming the adventure wasn't a catastrophe.

I'm not really all that opposed to this rule in general; I think it's fair pregens aren't a risk-free proposition. But there are still some details that need working out.


  • Normally other players can help finance Raise Dead. Can they also help finance the mandatory contribution part? For example in case of a catastrophic mission failure where the pregen didn't earn any money, could someone else help out, thus unlocking the sale of pregen gear?
  • As you've seen by now, the intended working of the rule isn't nearly as obvious as you thought it was. I think it would help a lot to put a well-worked-out example in the Guide showing step by step how to do it, what to write down where, and what to pay from where.
  • Although it may have worked like this long ago, I disagree with your statement that this is how it's always been. The "shunt the death off to a new number" thing has been around at least as long as I've played PFS (about 2.5 years). The older way is ancient history.

    I was actually under the impression that under the <S8 rules, if you wanted to save a pregen with conditions, that you could only use the pregens funds (and help from friends), not your real PC's funds. Being able to access those is an improvement.

  • I think a different rule should apply to pregen-only scenarios, but I'll put that in a separate post.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Why?

The character isn't even being played.

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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Concerning pregen-only scenarios

I think the new pregen death rule is a bad fit for these. Consider:


  • Normally people have time to review pregens beforehand, and pick one whose mechanics they're comfortable with. There are literally dozens of pregens to choose from. This isn't the case with pregen-only scenarios. There's usually just enough pregens for everyone and someone may end up with a bad fit.
  • These pregens have a tendency to be complicated. Pregen-only scenarios are used for things that you can't do with an ordinary PC, like Evil PCs, very weird races, or classes/archetypes that aren't normally allowed. They also have a tendency to show off material from newer books that not everyone has really mastered yet. Sometimes they also don't contain a full (clear, correct) explanation of the mechanics of some new class so someone not used to it may end up missing a lot of important details or even whole abilities. Also, they often have quirky builds designed to do something weird (but cool).

    You don't get to see the pregen beforehand, because of spoilers and/or convention time pressures. You have to master a lot of material very fast. All in all, players with these pregens are at a disadvantage.

  • Pregen-only scenarios are usually written in a "death or glory" style. Players are going up against spectacular odds; both True Dragons and especially Serpents Rise had a big underdog vibe to them. The pregens are written as focused on succeeding at this big mission, rather than playing it all safe and bailing if things start to look grim. And that's how they're meant to be played.

    I think this new rule will have a chilling effect on these scenarios, and it shouldn't.

    Apart from the Goblins scenarios, it's good that there are still consequences for death, but missing out on rewards is probably a big enough punishment in these.

  • Normally there's a "fairness" idea that it wouldn't be fair if a player with a pregen is at less long-term risk than someone with a real PC. If everyone has to play pregens, that doesn't fly.

  • These scenarios tend to have cool and weird rewards. Which would be really nice to allocate to the right PC, but it's hard to predict that in advance.

    You can have the same thing in a normal scenario. In those, if you run into a reward you'd really rather have had on another PC, you can GM it and attach the credit to the one who "should" have gotten it. But these scenarios have a high GM star requirement so that option is not available to most people.

All this combined leads me to suggest the following rule for pregen-only scenarios only:


  • Instead of choosing a PC # to allocate the adventure to before the session, do so after.
  • The remaining rules for credit and condition clearing apply as normal.

This would have the following happy consequences:


  • You can still play relatively boldly. If all goes wrong, send an empty # to the grave.
  • If there's a cool reward, you can see that it goes to the right PC. All players have this option equally so there should be no hard feelings about it.
  • If you suffer conditions but also rewards you want to keep, assign it to a PC and pay for clearing the conditions. You're not getting a free ride, death still means something. Campaign leadership's requirement has been met. But you don't have to decide between "no risk and no reward" or "unknown risk for unknown reward" beforehand.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Please explain how a 1XP, 0PP, 0GP chronicle is not an appropriate solution.

1) You receive experience, which is already "punishment enough" when you get zero gold.

2) It creates a cost of death proportional to the gold earned. At level 1 it's 500 gp and it increases from there as is appropriate by the scenario being played.

In other words, you DO pay for a raise. Is it the same cost as if you had bought the service? No, it varies from 500gp to whatever the chronicle reward is for a level on a 7-11 or 5-9 (I forget which is higher). With a zero PP reward, that's a pretty hefty punishment.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Also, I find these statements contradictory:

Andrew Christian wrote:
I'm not sure what you think will take up a ton of language and why you want to remove options to bring a character back to life.
Andrew Christian wrote:
The campaign team made it clear that they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

The Exchange

Andrew Christian wrote:
The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Unless the campaign team revises that opinion based on the feelings expressed and suggestions given in this thread. I'd prioritise suggestions that include character death, but I wouldn't make it a solid requirement of a best possible solution.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

The campaign team made it clear that they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

This is where I poke my head out and say "what about pregen only" scenarios?

The whole dynamic is different for those. If there must be a risk of death in those cases (which I am unconvinced of) it should be less than in standard scenarios.

I won't repeat my earlier long diatribes, but I do want to make sure these are remembered.

Thanks, btw, for the clarifications you've been giving in this thread. They've been very helpful, even where I disagree.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
MisterSlanky wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.
The campaign team made it clear that they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Please explain how a 1XP, 0PP, 0GP chronicle is not an appropriate solution.

1) You receive experience, which is already "punishment enough" when you get zero gold.

2) It creates a cost of death proportional to the gold earned. At level 1 it's 500 gp and it increases from there as is appropriate by the scenario being played.

In other words, you DO pay for a raise. Is it the same cost as if you had bought the service? No, it varies from 500gp to whatever the chronicle reward is for a level on a 7-11 or 5-9 (I forget which is higher). With a zero PP reward, that's a pretty hefty punishment.

Most 7-11s earn you 4000ish/6000ish/8000ish, depending on Tier.

1/5

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Nefreet wrote:


Most 7-11s earn you 4000ish/6000ish/8000ish, depending on Tier.

IF you are successful in obtaining objectives.

3/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:
The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Is there a quote for that somewhere? (not trying to be snarky in this case - didn't know if it was something said where it can be seen by non-VO's, if so, please link or advise where)

I ask as, while I can see there was a change, it's been suggested that the issue is one of attempting to curb a disruptive play style, rather than a desire for more dead PCs. The solution does not at all address the disruptive players, but will indeed cause more dead PCs and likely a diminishment of play in the campaign in general.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I wasn't even aware of Pregen abuse before this discussion, but I agree that the solution being presented is akin to saving your house from a fire by burning down your neighbor's.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Why?

The character isn't even being played.

To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

1/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:


To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

Admittedly, I'd be curious to see the numbers on that breakdown, as someone who plays his pregens *responsibly* to support the tables he plays at.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Is 1xp, 0pp, 0gp, and no Boons, not a punishment, IYO?

Dark Archive 5/5

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Why?

The character isn't even being played.

To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

Then maybe the pregen player can pool gold for a Breath of Life scroll to off set their recklessness.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:

To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

Except as many people have pointed out this solution really doesn't seem to address this problem. If I'm going to play stupid (and I don't think its stupid so much as deliberately being a bad player that is the issue) I just assign to a new character.

Edit: I know that I'm repeating myself but when a thread goes on this long repetition can be a good thing as people tend to start at the end :-)

The Exchange

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Andrew Christian wrote:

To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

The latter should be handled robustly by the GM at the table. This will still occur if the player in question pre-assigns the pregen to a character number they don't care about. So press the point to GMs and players that asking the pregen player to leave the table should be the solution in this case, or treating it as PvP where the pregen players actions can have no negative effect on the other characters. If players are in this situation and the GM refuses to step in, they should walk away and talk to a VO.

The former, I don't consider as much of an issue as it doesn't impact others. If someone wants to take a character number all the way to retirement by playing pregens instead, it's not really prevented me from having fun.

The Exchange 5/5

3 people marked this as a favorite.

The message I have gotten from this thread is: clearly someone doesn't want us to play Pregens.

so, when presented with the choice to play a pregen or not play... I think I am just going to start going home.

Life is to short for bad gaming.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Why?

The character isn't even being played.

To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

It is a well-established principal that you can't solve OOC problems with IC solutions. This seems like the organized play equivalent of that.

If you have a disruptive player, you need to use the usual remedies for disruptive play -- which is easy for me to say, because they are unpleasant and I am not a VO. Trying to do that through changing in-system incentives will only lead to the disruptive player changing the details of their disruption.

1/5

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pH unbalanced wrote:


It is a well-established principal that you can't solve OOC problems with IC solutions. This seems like the organized play equivalent of that.

If you have a disruptive player, you need to use the usual remedies for disruptive play -- which is easy for me to say, because they are unpleasant and I am not a VO. Trying to do that through changing in-system incentives will only lead to the disruptive player changing the details of their disruption.

In addition, it's ENABLING such abuse on an even higher level, paradoxically.

The presumption is that someone *cares* about others when they perform anti-social activity, as that's what the new Community Standards indicate.

However, a nihilistic individual won't care.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Captain, Arizona—Phoenix aka TriOmegaZero

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nosig wrote:

The message I have gotten from this thread is: clearly someone doesn't want us to play Pregens.

so, when presented with the choice to play a pregen or not play... I think I am just going to start going home.

Life is to short for bad gaming.

Thankfully, I will no longer be attending the game I thought I would need a pregen for this Sunday, as our Carrion Crown group will be meeting instead.

Grand Lodge 5/5 Venture-Agent, Florida—Melbourne aka trollbill

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nosig wrote:

The message I have gotten from this thread is: clearly someone doesn't want us to play Pregens.

so, when presented with the choice to play a pregen or not play... I think I am just going to start going home.

Life is to short for bad gaming.

I have to agree. Playing with a pregen is never going to be as fun as playing with your real character. And for most people, their real characters are more powerful, and thus less likely to be killed in a scenario. Given those two elements, less fun + greater risk, I see a lot of people just walking away instead of playing the pregen. Which is some cases means that tables may not make and thus nobody has any fun.

The Exchange 5/5

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trollbill wrote:
nosig wrote:

The message I have gotten from this thread is: clearly someone doesn't want us to play Pregens.

so, when presented with the choice to play a pregen or not play... I think I am just going to start going home.

Life is to short for bad gaming.

I have to agree. Playing with a pregen is never going to be as fun as playing with your real character. And for most people, their real characters are more powerful, and thus less likely to be killed in a scenario. Given those two elements, less fun + greater risk, I see a lot of people just walking away instead of playing the pregen. Which is some cases means that tables may not make and thus nobody has any fun.

nah, mostly the tables will still "make" - 3 players and a Pregen run by the judge. He can use the time he saves from not needing to try to figure out how to record the death of a Player run Pregen to run the Pregen during the game.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
jon dehning wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

I actually really liked the 1xp, 0pp, 0gp solution.

No need to worry about anything. Just apply the Chronicle when your PC reaches the appropriate level and continue on.

Even 1st level characters can survive that.

Alleviates the whole "impending doom" scenario, and explaining how your PC perished while they were out on vacation.

I think a change of this magnitude would be a step in a positive direction for PFS.

The campaign team made it clear t g at they want risk of death for the character. So any solutions need to include risk of actual death.

Why?

The character isn't even being played.

To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

Then maybe the pregen player can pool gold for a Breath of Life scroll to off set their recklessness.

This potential solution creates possible abuse, and I've seen it discussed on these boards and tried in practice, where a regular character dies and the resolve it by having the pregen sell thier gear.

Grand Lodge 2/5

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Andrew Christian wrote:
This potential solution creates possible abuse, and I've seen it discussed on these boards and tried in practice, where a regular character dies and the resolve it by having the pregen sell thier gear.

That was already resolved last season

Guide Season 7 wrote:

any equipment that’s listed on the

pregenerated character sheet may only be sold to clear
their own conditions during the play of a sanctioned
event

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Paul Jackson wrote:
Andrew Christian wrote:

To avoid the abuse of using a pregen instead of a legal character for the purpose of avoiding the risk of death. And so folks won't play stupid or overly risky with a pregen knowing there is no longer lasting risk, and thus unduly endangering the real characaters at the table.

Apparently this has been enough of a major issue in enough regions that a solution was required.

Except as many people have pointed out this solution really doesn't seem to address this problem. If I'm going to play stupid (and I don't think its stupid so much as deliberately being a bad player that is the issue) I just assign to a new character.

Edit: I know that I'm repeating myself but when a thread goes on this long repetition can be a good thing as people tend to start at the end :-)

I hear you, but you are only addressing the risk of abuse.

They want there to be a real risk of death for solely the purpose of there being a risk of death.

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