RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16
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I have no problem risking death for my characters... when I'm playing my characters. [But] I do have a problem risking death for my characters when I'm forced to play a pregen because that's all the scenario allows or I'm doing others a favor by playing a pregen when I don't have a character available in tier but they need me to help make a table go off.
Uner the new rules, you don't have to risk an established character, Michael. All you need to do is assign the experience to a never-before-played character number. (Same as before, but now you have to make that "safe" commitment before the game begins.)
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The upshot to this rule change may well be that many players end up with multiple PCs with a single XP on them. Which might result in fewer PCs using the 1st-level evergreen scenarios.
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I have no problem risking death for my characters... when I'm playing my characters. [But] I do have a problem risking death for my characters when I'm forced to play a pregen because that's all the scenario allows or I'm doing others a favor by playing a pregen when I don't have a character available in tier but they need me to help make a table go off.Uner the new rules, you don't have to risk an established character, Michael. All you need to do is assign the experience to a never-before-played character number. (Same as before, but now you have to make that "safe" commitment before the game begins.)
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The upshot to this rule change may well be that many players end up with multiple PCs with a single XP on them. Which might result in fewer PCs using the 1st-level evergreen scenarios.
Maybe that's an upshot to you, but not to me. I have no desire to play for rewards on characters I may never end up using. I have the 14 PCs I have because those are the character concepts I decided I want to play. I haven't come up with an idea for #15 yet, so I don't want to assign a chronicle to that PC as I may never have a #15.
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Luckily, in Serpent's Rise, you can simply sell all of your Pregen's gear to cover your Raise Dead ^_^
No idea about Serpent's Rise but I just want to point out that there are plenty of scenarios where buying a Raise Dead and two Restorations (lets remember those when saying its no huge deal) is NOT as bad as it gets. Some scenarios you'll need a body recovery, some you'll need a resurrection, etc.
Playing with a Pregen (in general, there are exceptions) increases the chances of Party failure and of Party TPK. Serpent's Rise can be difficult with inexperienced players at a 6 player table.
Hmm. I just thought of another wrinkle. Once when I ran Serpent's Rise one of the characters died about 2/3 of the way through the scenario. The players perservered and won. But if they were risking their actual characters in a situation where a TPK would clearly mean a body recovery (As in Serpents Rise) they'd have been very, very likely to have turned back at that point. Certainly, the argument that they weren't really risking anything was made.
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Hey, some people have different opinions, I'm a ok with it. I'll be enforcing the rule at the start of the adventure that you pick what character the pregen will be going on. If it's a brand new character I'll make sure to fill out the cert with first level info on it and call it a day.
That's not terribly hard, and if the character dies and it's going to a new first level character I'll stress that people shouldn't pool resources to fix it, unless they are a brand new player.
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I'll be enforcing the rule at the start of the adventure that you pick what character the pregen will be going on. If it's a brand new character I'll make sure to fill out the cert with first level info on it and call it a day.
As long as you're doing it by the book and not forcing people to choose specific characters against their will, that's all anyone can ask of you. Even if I don't entirely agree with the rule, until it changes, I'll be enforcing it as well.
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Realistically, since I GM most of the time, this doesn't affect me all that much. It just means I can't go to PFS for any session in which I'm not either GMing or playing a scenario that I'm 100% sure will fire. It also means I can't play in any pregen specials unless I don't care about not getting a Chronicle, but I can live with that. More time at home with Skyrim. ^_^
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Hey, some people have different opinions, I'm a ok with it. I'll be enforcing the rule at the start of the adventure that you pick what character the pregen will be going on. If it's a brand new character I'll make sure to fill out the cert with first level info on it and call it a day.
That's not terribly hard, and if the character dies and it's going to a new first level character I'll stress that people shouldn't pool resources to fix it, unless they are a brand new player.
Why should there be a distinction?
Someone who has invested the time to get their character leveled up should get the same benefit of the doubt.
Don't count the fact that they might or might not have the money.
My -1 has a *lot* of gear via Expedition Manager... but if they bit it, none of that would be viable sale items.
Also don't presume that say, the purchase of First Aid Gloves or Breath of Life scrolls (to help the ENTIRE party) should be held against an altruistic player looking to help the campaign grow.
Some folks *just don't have the cash* (even at higher levels) to make this happen.
If the team succeeds in the mission, could a different solution instead be applied, say, perhaps the loss of Prestige (but not fame)?
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Maybe that's an upshot to you, but not to me. I have no desire to play for rewards on characters I may never end up using. I have the 14 PCs I have because those are the character concepts I decided I want to play. I haven't come up with an idea for #15 yet, so I don't want to assign a chronicle to that PC as I may never have a #15.I have no problem risking death for my characters... when I'm playing my characters. [But] I do have a problem risking death for my characters when I'm forced to play a pregen because that's all the scenario allows or I'm doing others a favor by playing a pregen when I don't have a character available in tier but they need me to help make a table go off.Uner the new rules, you don't have to risk an established character, Michael. All you need to do is assign the experience to a never-before-played character number. (Same as before, but now you have to make that "safe" commitment before the game begins.)
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The upshot to this rule change may well be that many players end up with multiple PCs with a single XP on them. Which might result in fewer PCs using the 1st-level evergreen scenarios.
Exactly.
I can point to the moment that I got a slew of 1 chronicle characters as the moment when I lost control of my PFS character organizational system. I really don't want to make any more of those; I want to level up the 13 characters I have.|
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Hey, some people have different opinions, I'm a ok with it. I'll be enforcing the rule at the start of the adventure that you pick what character the pregen will be going on. If it's a brand new character I'll make sure to fill out the cert with first level info on it and call it a day.
That's not terribly hard, and if the character dies and it's going to a new first level character I'll stress that people shouldn't pool resources to fix it, unless they are a brand new player.Why should there be a distinction?
Someone who has invested the time to get their character leveled up should get the same benefit of the doubt.
Don't count the fact that they might or might not have the money.
My -1 has a *lot* of gear via Expedition Manager... but if they bit it, none of that would be viable sale items.
Also don't presume that say, the purchase of First Aid Gloves or Breath of Life scrolls (to help the ENTIRE party) should be held against an altruistic player looking to help the campaign grow.
Some folks *just don't have the cash* (even at higher levels) to make this happen.
If the team succeeds in the mission, could a different solution instead be applied, say, perhaps the loss of Prestige (but not fame)?
Because if the brand new 1st level is pregening a 4th level they owe 1k to come back if they sell off the pregen gear.
If they are playing a 7 than brand new they are dead.If your 4th or 5th level character died with a 7th pregen, I'd encourage people to help, but if you don't have the resources than death becomes you, friend.
The benefit of a doubt is always having one to two thousand gold on hand to cover a pregen death. That's all there is to it.
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Hey, some people have different opinions, I'm a ok with it. I'll be enforcing the rule at the start of the adventure that you pick what character the pregen will be going on. If it's a brand new character I'll make sure to fill out the cert with first level info on it and call it a day.
That's not terribly hard, and if the character dies and it's going to a new first level character I'll stress that people shouldn't pool resources to fix it, unless they are a brand new player.
When playing a pregen, the player chooses whether the cert is assigned as a 1st level with 500 gp or at the level of the pregen.
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Funny, I played Serpents Ire and assigned it to a character and yes risked that character (that wasn't first level) and didn't die.
I accepted the real risk of death, and played and had fun at Gen Con.
All I hear from a lot of people and ymmv, is that they want zero risk of death in PFS and all the rewards.
Character death happens. Learn to deal with it. It happens and that's all there is to it.
If all you have is a first level character than don't pregen a 7th. This by the way should only apply to a brand new player. Everyone else should be assigning to higher level pcs.
You're incredibly rude and dismissive of other people's legitimate issues, might want to look at that and address it instead of just repeating over and over, "people should be okay with dying!".
I'm not saying there shouldn't be risk. I'm saying that you shouldn't be punished for playing a character you have no control over. Especially for people with middling system mastery, imagine playing the Brawler pregen from Serpent's Rise with no experience with the class. Your effectiveness is likely going to be drastically lower than normal. Changes like forcing people to risk real death in exchange for being able to play cool pregens is likely to just force those people who don't own and read every book to not play those cool scenarios. Now, it seems like the rules allowing you to pay a very reduced price on your raise dead are mitigation enough in my mind if that is indeed how it will work going into next season, 1-2k is fine with me since these are higher level adventures.
But the very concept that everyone should be okay with playing accepting permadeath if they have to play a pregen under any circumstances seems adversarial at least to me. You accept permadeath when you play your character because IT IS YOUR CHARACTER. You have some level of control, and that death may indeed be influenced by the flaws or peculiarities in your build. That's fine, it's a death that is influenced by your decisions. Dying on a pregen has stripped away your agency in strategy unless you know how you're going to play it going in, and limits your tactics to your understanding of your new character. It is frustrating to die as a pregen. To know, "my character was built to deal with this." I don't agree at all that they should have the same penalties.
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I'm not saying there shouldn't be risk. I'm saying that you shouldn't be punished for playing a character you have no control over. Especially for people with middling system mastery, imagine playing the Brawler pregen from Serpent's Rise with no experience with the class. Your effectiveness is likely going to be drastically lower than normal.
I'm not at all trying to be dismissive of your point, but I wouldn't use the brawler as your example. As long as you know some good combat feats that's all that's really required. I've never played a brawler but played it for both specials. I immediately made a list of what feats I could qualify for and what would be good to take. For instance
I would say the magus in the first one would be horrible for someone who doesn't know how a magus works--but for a brawler, you just go "oh I can spend a move action to get two combat feats" and as long as you know feats you're good.
However, I wouldn't want the fate of my character(s) to be determined by random people that show up and have no knowledge of the game (then I wouldn't push either the brawler or the magus on them). I did still assign my credit for this year's to a real character (well "real" as in he has credit already assigned and I'm trying to get him to at least level 3 before playing him).
It was fun to see the cavalier was a Constable which no one at the table had any idea about other than me (was actually the character I was assigning credit to). It's a very cool archetype that completely changes the cavalier into a totally different way to play it.
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Not having any idea what the Serpents pregens do/are before you sit down at the table doesn't help.
When I played Serpents Rise, it was in a very tight time slot - we had two minutes, max, to read our pregens before starting the scenario. That could have gone very wrong...
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Realistically, since I GM most of the time, this doesn't affect me all that much. It just means I can't go to PFS for any session in which I'm not either GMing or playing a scenario that I'm 100% sure will fire. It also means I can't play in any pregen specials unless I don't care about not getting a Chronicle, but I can live with that. More time at home with Skyrim. ^_^
Really I'm more concerned about how this impacts me as a GM than how it affects my characters. I have characters in almost every subtier so the risk of me losing a character to pregen play is minimal. I just don't savour the idea of killing off the low level PCs of inexperienced players on a technicality. Giving the player the choice at the start of the adventure of whether they will assign the credit to a new character that they may not be ready to build or risking the only character they've invested in feels like bogging them down with minutia they shouldn't have to worry about.
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Really I'm more concerned about how this impacts me as a GM then how it affects my characters. I have characters in almost every subtier so the risk of me losing a character to pregen play is minimal. I just don't savour the idea of killing off the low level PCs of inexperienced players on a technicality. Giving the player the choice at the start of the adventure of whether they will assign the credit to a new character that they may not be ready to build or risking the only character they've invested in feels like bogging them down with minutia they shouldn't have to worry about.
Almost nobody else around here plays pregens (yet), so I haven't been that worried about them. I agree that it's something I'd be concerned about as a GM, though... especially since people at my lodge have a nasty habit of forgetting their Chronicles, and per the new Guide, that's a one-way trip to Pregen Valley. So it might be more of an issue once I start handing them pregens.
That reminds me! pH unbalanced, please remember to bring your pregens along in the future. ^_^
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I'm not saying there shouldn't be risk. I'm saying that you shouldn't be punished for playing a character you have no control over. Especially for people with middling system mastery, imagine playing the Brawler pregen from Serpent's Rise with no experience with the class. Your effectiveness is likely going to be drastically lower than normal.I'm not at all trying to be dismissive of your point, but I wouldn't use the brawler as your example. As long as you know some good combat feats that's all that's really required. I've never played a brawler but played it for both specials. I immediately made a list of what feats I could qualify for and what would be good to take. For instance
** spoiler omitted **.
I would say the magus in the first one would be horrible for someone who doesn't know how a magus works--but for a brawler, you just go "oh I can spend a move action to get two combat feats" and as long as you know feats you're good.
I always use the Brawler as my example, as when I played it the person with the Brawler was clearly overwhelmed and in over her head. (I took the Magus). She took every spare moment to go through her books looking for combat feats she qualified for. She was terrified of letting the party down by missing something.
Part of system mastery is knowing when you can ignore options, and she wasn't there yet.
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Not sure if serious or not but here is the relevant text... especially since people at my lodge have a nasty habit of forgetting their Chronicles, and per the new Guide, that's a one-way trip to Pregen Valley...How is that new?Wait, that's not new? How did I miss that!?
Well... I guess they have no excuse, then.
Keep good records of your character and make sure to
bring all of your Chronicle sheets to every event or session
of Pathfinder Society Organized Play. If you forget your
Chronicle sheets, you will be unable to play your character,
though you may be able to play a pregenerated character
or start another character within Society rules.
It's probably in the earlier guides too but I'm not going to go back and check.
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Luckily, in Serpent's Rise, you can simply sell all of your Pregen's gear to cover your Raise Dead ^_^My changeling was 1st level, and didn't have 2,000 gp to cover the PC contribution. What would I have done?
Two things:
1) as has been pointed out multiple times, you weren't playing an Iconic Pregen. This new "must spend X actual gold" clause only applies when playing an Iconic Pregen. You weren't, so you're safe.
2) as I pointed out up thread, it is impossible to spend gold from your actual character anyways, making this requirement unfeasible. I, therefore, believe that the "must spend X actual gold" clause is a typo, and instead was supposed to mean "you cannot completely cover the cost of a Raise Dead by selling gear; you must also use X gold from your Chronicle earnings".
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Luckily, in Serpent's Rise, you can simply sell all of your Pregen's gear to cover your Raise Dead ^_^My changeling was 1st level, and didn't have 2,000 gp to cover the PC contribution. What would I have done?Two things:
1) as has been pointed out multiple times, you weren't playing an Iconic Pregen. This new "must spend X actual gold" clause only applies when playing an Iconic Pregen. You weren't, so you're safe.
2) as I pointed out up thread, it is impossible to spend gold from your actual character anyways, making this requirement unfeasible. I, therefore, believe that the "must spend X actual gold" clause is a typo, and instead was supposed to mean "you cannot completely cover the cost of a Raise Dead by selling gear; you must also use X gold from your Chronicle earnings".
1) From my reading of the guide, including the following line: "The following rules apply when playing pregenerated characters", this is a bit of a grey area. I'm not convinced of your point.
2) How do I get all that gold from the Chronicle if I died? I was only getting 2000 gp from the Chronicle due to slow track, so if I missed anything (which seems likely, under those circumstances), I wouldn't have had adequate funds.
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2) How do I get all that gold from the Chronicle if I died?Party contribution?
From the five random people at the convention I was at? That seems... unlikely.
Also, this portion of the Guide (bolded for emphasis) seems to disallow party contribution:
The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute a minimum amount of gp before spending the pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character, 1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.
It looks like my character has to pay that part herself... no ifs, ands, or buts.
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1) From my reading of the guide, including the following line: "The following rules apply when playing pregenerated characters", this is a bit of a grey area. I'm not convinced of your point.
Read higher?
That section begins with "The Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild offers pregenerated characters based on the Pathfinder RPG’s iconic characters", and *then* goes on to explain the restrictions and limitations of them.
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Also, this portion of the Guide (bolded for emphasis) seems to disallow party contribution:The Roleplaying Guild character must contribute a minimum amount of gp before spending the pregenerated character’s wealth in this way, depending on her level: 0 gp for a 1st-level pregenerated character, 1,000 gp for 4th-level, and 2,000 gp for 7th-level.It looks like my character has to pay that part herself... no ifs, ands, or buts.
Which, again, is impossible.
Reference to the actual character is an error. There is no method for spending gold you do not have yet, from Chronicles you do not have yet, for a Chronicle that isn't being applied yet.
I asked earlier "How?", and nobody has still yet replied.
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Reference to the actual character is an error. There is no method for spending gold you do not have yet, from Chronicles you do not have yet, for a Chronicle that isn't being applied yet.
I asked earlier "How?", and nobody has still yet replied.
That is something that needs to be fixed. I'm just glad an irreplaceable character wasn't marked dead because of it.
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Also, if we take that theory as true, then it means nothing in that entire section applies to pregens such as these - all of it refers only to iconics.
Indeed. Not only do I believe that was intended, I also don't see the problem.
It establishes a general rule. Other types of Pregens would necessarily provide specific exceptions.
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That is something that needs to be fixed. I'm just glad an irreplaceable character wasn't marked dead because of it.Reference to the actual character is an error. There is no method for spending gold you do not have yet, from Chronicles you do not have yet, for a Chronicle that isn't being applied yet.
I asked earlier "How?", and nobody has still yet replied.
If your GM had, I would have protested higher up the food chain.
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1) From my reading of the guide, including the following line: "The following rules apply when playing pregenerated characters", this is a bit of a grey area. I'm not convinced of your point.
Read higher?
That section begins with "The Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild offers pregenerated characters based on the Pathfinder RPG’s iconic characters", and *then* goes on to explain the restrictions and limitations of them.
I've advocated for this reading, but I don't think it is clear yet that it is correct. I expect Tonya et al to weigh in soon, and then we'll know.
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Also, if we take that theory as true, then it means nothing in that entire section applies to pregens such as these - all of it refers only to iconics.Indeed. Not only do I believe that was intended, I also don't see the problem.
It establishes a general rule. Other types of Pregens would necessarily provide specific exceptions.
That seems odd. For example, barring specific text in Serpents Rise, it would mean this no longer applies:
You may apply credit for an adventure once your Roleplaying Guild character reaches the level of the pregenerated character used to play through it. For example, if you played a 7th-level pregenerated character, you would apply the credit once your character reaches 7th level.
That would mean I could immediately apply the Chronicle to my 1st level character...
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Luckily, in Serpent's Rise, you can simply sell all of your Pregen's gear to cover your Raise Dead ^_^My changeling was 1st level, and didn't have 2,000 gp to cover the PC contribution. What would I have done?Two things:
1) as has been pointed out multiple times, you weren't playing an Iconic Pregen. This new "must spend X actual gold" clause only applies when playing an Iconic Pregen. You weren't, so you're safe.
My understanding of people who were at GenCon and asked was that Tonya told them it applies to ALL pregens, not just iconics. While this is hearsay, we should refrain from making definitive statements about 'you are okay if you don't use an iconic' until the team is back and reset from GenCon to update us officially.
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Venture-Captain, Minnesota
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Here's my summary of this rules change:
1) It causes problems for people playing in pregen-only specials.
2) It causes problems for new and inexperienced players.
3) It is not completely clear as to how characters must spend their own wealth in the event of pregen death. Is it from the chronicle earned in the adventure? From their own sheets?
4) It does not fix what it's supposed to fix. Someone who wants to abuse a party by playing a pregen in an abusive manner can still decide in the beginning to assign the pregen to an unused number.
Solving the problem of disruptive players playing pregens
I hear the problem that some locations must seat all players because stores do not want to turn away potential customers. Maybe this issue could be better solved with tips on how to talk to our venue managers and owners?
My region has a wonderfully cooperative and helpful player base. But part of the reason that we do is because we've been proactive about removing the few who refuse to play well with others. We have not banned a lot of people, and each decision to do so is somewhat heart-wrenching. But if someone is truly disruptive, we first talk to them, then warn them and then remove them as a last resort.
Being able to do this has made a huge difference in our region.
A Plea to Management
John, Tonya, Linda, may we please have this rules change reviewed or hear from you more about why you felt it needed? I believe that this rules change was a serious mistake.
Hmm
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My understanding of people who were at GenCon and asked was that Tonya told them it applies to ALL pregens, not just iconics. While this is hearsay, we should refrain from making definitive statements about 'you are okay if you don't use an iconic' until the team is back and reset from GenCon to update us officially.Luckily, in Serpent's Rise, you can simply sell all of your Pregen's gear to cover your Raise Dead ^_^My changeling was 1st level, and didn't have 2,000 gp to cover the PC contribution. What would I have done?Two things:
1) as has been pointed out multiple times, you weren't playing an Iconic Pregen. This new "must spend X actual gold" clause only applies when playing an Iconic Pregen. You weren't, so you're safe.
If that was the decision voiced at GenCon, then I would defer to that as well.
I wasn't there, so I hadn't heard of that until just now.