Can pregen deaths still be reassigned?


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Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

But the wording involving character wealth is still unfeasible, as I see it.

If I'm the player, or even the GM, and I'm holding a pen in my right hand, and a Chronicle in my left, what am I doing with them?

Walk me through the steps so I can understand, because I cannot currently conceptualize how spending wealth from the actual character is supposed to work.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Looking at my upcoming weekend, we have an offering of Emerald Spire level 6 coming this Sunday, range 4-6. My two Core characters are level 3, and I don't want to apply credit to them and remove play time from their Core career. I would have to play a 4th level pregen, and hold it for the 2nd level credit blob I have applied level 5's chronicle to. Thoughts or recommendations? I could apply it to another 1st level character and split my progression up, or I could risk a blank page of a character on the chance that we die. And since the table may not make if I don't go, I also have that consideration.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Slow Track credit for your 3rd level character, so you minimize loss of play, and still have access to the full Landrush Chronicle.

5/5

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Nefreet wrote:

But the wording involving character wealth is still unfeasible, as I see it.

If I'm the player, or even the GM, and I'm holding a pen in my right hand, and a Chronicle in my left, what am I doing with them?

Walk me through the steps so I can understand, because I cannot currently conceptualize how spending wealth from the actual character is supposed to work.

I would assume you mark it on your ITS so your current wealth track is accurate and then record it on the next chronicle you apply to the character.

4/5 Venture-Agent, Minnesota—St. Louis Park aka BretI

Nefreet wrote:
The specific exception in that case would instead be the "Tier 6-8" of the Chronicle ^_^

Is it? That isn't clear to me.

I have a character with a chronicle for Serpent's Rise that will soon be 6th level.

As I understand it, under the Season 7 rules I could apply it once I was 6th level. Now it the way I read it in Season 8 is I need to wait until the level of the Pregenerated Character (7th in this case).

The section on Pregenerated Characters (pg. 6-7) makes several statements that show they are mostly talking about the Iconic pregenerated characters from the Community Use Package. However, there is nothing in the section about Applying credit section that is specific to those characters -- everything there could apply equally to a Serpent's Rise character.

If the claim is that section doesn't apply to the scenarios with custom pregenerated characters, you don't have any rules for how to apply the chronicle.

If the claim is that it does apply, then that section specifically states that you apply it as soon as your character gets to the level of the pregenerated character.

Based on the above, it seems to me that credit for Serpent's Rise now has to either be applied to a first level character immediately (with reduced gold) or wait until 7th level.

I'm using Serpent's Rise in this case because it is convenient. The same thing would apply to True Dragons of Absalom, Serpent's Ire, and any other scenario that requires you play with the pregenerated characters custom to that scenario.

---

I think there is more room to discuss what happens for clearing conditions on those characters.

The section on Making Character Choices does make direct reference to the Community Use Pregenerated characters, so there is room to argue if that section is exclusive to those characters.

You would still have the issue that pg. 14 (Filling out the Chronicle) requires that they fill out what character to apply it to before the scenario. The ability to reassign only remains in the FAQ, which I expect to be changed.

I would love it to be the case that we could reassign the credit for the scenario-specific pregenerated characters after the session. I just don't see anything that would allow that and see a few things that seem to require the choice as the beginning.

Dark Archive

Kurthnaga wrote:
Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

Funny, I played Serpents Ire and assigned it to a character and yes risked that character (that wasn't first level) and didn't die.

I accepted the real risk of death, and played and had fun at Gen Con.
All I hear from a lot of people and ymmv, is that they want zero risk of death in PFS and all the rewards.
Character death happens. Learn to deal with it. It happens and that's all there is to it.
If all you have is a first level character than don't pregen a 7th. This by the way should only apply to a brand new player. Everyone else should be assigning to higher level pcs.

You're incredibly rude and dismissive of other people's legitimate issues, might want to look at that and address it instead of just repeating over and over, "people should be okay with dying!".

I'm not saying there shouldn't be risk. I'm saying that you shouldn't be punished for playing a character you have no control over. Especially for people with middling system mastery, imagine playing the Brawler pregen from Serpent's Rise with no experience with the class. Your effectiveness is likely going to be drastically lower than normal. Changes like forcing people to risk real death in exchange for being able to play cool pregens is likely to just force those people who don't own and read every book to not play those cool scenarios. Now, it seems like the rules allowing you to pay a very reduced price on your raise dead are mitigation enough in my mind if that is indeed how it will work going into next season, 1-2k is fine with me since these are higher level adventures.

But the very concept that everyone should be okay with playing accepting permadeath if they have to play a pregen under any circumstances seems adversarial at least to me. You accept permadeath when you play your character because IT IS YOUR CHARACTER. You have some level of control, and that death may indeed be influenced by the flaws or peculiarities in your build. That's fine, it's a death that is influenced...

I don't pander, if that makes me rude and dismissive than ok.

I don't think I need to fix anything, and yes. People should be okay with dying.

See I really do love this campaign. The fear and knowledge that death walks the halls is fun, it keeps the campaign fresh.

One campaign that I played in took away the fear of death and allowed characters to be generated at high levels which pushed people away. I'd like this campaign to continue onward, but if death becomes meaningless than this campaign too will die.

Rocks fall, characters die. This shouldn't be negated, but a lot of people even in this thread would rather misapply a cert, instead of taking risks. That to me is unbecoming.

Go forth, fight tooth and nail, live gloriously, die spectacularly! Not everyone enjoys that style of play, but they should respect the rules, and the core system. Not make a mockery out of pregens, that once upon a time were there only to allow people who had low level characters to play tiers they didn't have characters for.

What pregens are used for now is a mockery. Maybe one day they'll word it so that you as I said before. Have to play a character in a tier if it's available. (Baring specials like Ire, etc).

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Nefreet wrote:
Slow Track credit for your 3rd level character, so you minimize loss of play, and still have access to the full Landrush Chronicle.

That's what got my third character to 2nd level, so neither of my 3rd levels have the first Landrush credit. It is a thought tho.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
andreww wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

But the wording involving character wealth is still unfeasible, as I see it.

If I'm the player, or even the GM, and I'm holding a pen in my right hand, and a Chronicle in my left, what am I doing with them?

Walk me through the steps so I can understand, because I cannot currently conceptualize how spending wealth from the actual character is supposed to work.

I would assume you mark it on your ITS so your current wealth track is accurate and then record it on the next chronicle you apply to the character.

I have a Chronicle, and a pen. That's it.

What do I do with them?

I'm being serious. I have no clue.

Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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Paul Jackson wrote:

but I just want to point out that there are plenty of scenarios where buying a Raise Dead and two Restorations (lets remember those when saying its no huge deal) is NOT as bad as it gets. Some scenarios you'll need a body recovery, some you'll need a resurrection, etc.

Of course that brings up the interesting point that since you are no longer REQUIRED to deal with negative levels right away, but instead can carry negative levels forward [PFS Season 8 Guide pg. 18: "Permanent negative levels, ability drain, and nonmechanical conditions being carried over to the next session should be recorded on the Chronicle sheet."] Does this mean that if all one can afford with the pre-gen is the 'Raise Dead' spell, that my 3rd level actual character, for whom the pregen credit is being applied to, now becomes 1st level? Pretty straight-forward, so I would assume it does. Can I now play him in Tier 1, Tier 1-2 scenarios? I mean, he's a level 1 again, right? How does he count for calculating average table level now, level 1 or level 3?

But let's look at the "risk vs reward" argument that's been used here by looking at this scenario. I have a level 2 character, I go to Gen Con and can only play at a Tier 7-11 table with a level 7 pregen (regardless of low or high tier table). I pick my one and only character to apply the scenario credit to, rather than creating a -2 character. Let's assume that my pre-gen survives the scenario:

1. Does my level 2 character immediately get the XP? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?
2. Does my level 2 character immediately get the Fame/Prestige? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?
3. Does my level 2 character immediately get the GP? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?
4. Does my level 2 character immediately have the ability to buy items listed on the sheet? Or does he have to wait until he achieves level 7 to apply the chronicle sheet and get that?

Based on how it was explained to me when I joined PFS the answer to all four questions is: "No, you don't get anything from the chronicle sheet now. You must wait until your character achieves the level of the pregen character (in this example level 7) before you get anything from the adventure because that is when the chronicle sheet is applied to your character."

Except now there's an addendum:

"You don't get anything from the chronicle sheet until your character reaches the level of the pregen EXCEPT death and negative level effects, those you must apply immediately to your character and deal with it now, immediately, not when you reach the level of the pregen character."

So, playing a pregen means that one can get a foreshadowing look at the "reward", but they get an immediate first-hand, instantaneous application of the "risk". Not exactly balanced in my opinion. Why can't I wait and apply the death effect AND the rewards when the character reaches the level of the pregen? Why is death front-loaded but nothing else from playing the pregen is?

Liberty's Edge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Here is my problem with it. I go to a game store with my characters, but there is no scenario for my levels. I am forced to use a pregen to play and now I have to pick a character to apply it to. Now, I won't play a pregen at all and hurt a character that is not really playing. I will just leave the Pathfinder Society event and do something else. The only time a character should be in danger of dieing is when that character is playing.

5/5

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AkosPrime wrote:
Does this mean that if all one can afford with the pre-gen is the 'Raise Dead' spell, that my 3rd level actual character, for whom the pregen credit is being applied to, now becomes 1st level?

That's not how negative levels work in Pathfinder.

Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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GM Lamplighter wrote:


That's not how negative levels work in Pathfinder.

Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the new guide specifically allows permanent negative level effects to be carried forward instead of having to resolve them immediately at the end of the scenario, and at least raise some awareness of how that could apply to 'real' characters to whom a pregen 'credit/debit' is being applied.


medtec28 wrote:

I noticed another unintended consequence of this.

Let's say you have a brand new player show up at your game day. We can all agree this is a good thing. Something that we should embrace and encourage.
You hand this new player their New Player boon and a pretend sheet, and then the dice betray them.
You have to hand them a chronicle that kills the character they haven't even built.

"Hey, thanks for coming out. Here are two sheets that give you nothing. Why don't you make a new character and come back next week. No, you cannot use that boon on that character, it can only be used on your very first character."

Is that person more or less likely to come back next week?

I think you're selling newbies short. On my very first session in playing AD+D, I and my entire party were wiped out by a cursed berserking sword. And technically we got nothing for the effort, agony, and death.

I still came back though.

5/5

Perhaps it's a location thing, but I simply don't see pregens die often enough for this to worry anyone.

I've also never run into pregen griefers, but I imagine that they would be less frequent if they can never get real benefit out of playing the pregen. If they *do* assign it down to a brand-new character, it puts the group on notice that they may not be taking it seriously. The GM can step in if things get bad/obvious, and the players can be more cautious.

Newbies it barely affects at all - they practically get the "safe assign" for free.


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Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
medtec28 wrote:

I noticed another unintended consequence of this.

Let's say you have a brand new player show up at your game day. We can all agree this is a good thing. Something that we should embrace and encourage.
You hand this new player their New Player boon and a pretend sheet, and then the dice betray them.
You have to hand them a chronicle that kills the character they haven't even built.

"Hey, thanks for coming out. Here are two sheets that give you nothing. Why don't you make a new character and come back next week. No, you cannot use that boon on that character, it can only be used on your very first character."

Is that person more or less likely to come back next week?

I think you're selling newbies short. On my very first session in playing AD+D, I and my entire party were wiped out by a cursed berserking sword. And technically we got nothing for the effort, agony, and death.

I still came back though.

And I spent most of my first gaming session plying in AD&D with my character at or below 0 HP for most of the session 3 separate times, and I continued to play for 30 years after that. But I think you are discounting the effect of basically tearing up two chronicle sheets in front of a player when they show up to play for the first time.

I think it's important to remember that we aren't selling (or promoting, advertivising or whatever word you want to use to describe it), this game we're selling the idea that "You will have fun playing this game."

I'm going to step back and tell you that I think their should be a risk of dying. That's what provides the tension in the games we play. That is a big part of the fun. "I beat that dragon!" Should mean something after all.

What I am saying is, we are always trying to recruit new players, we have Pathfinder Academy for part of that. A few months ago they introduced new player boons as well. I think it would be demoralizing to a new player to trash that boon for them and tell them they need to create a new character for next week, rather than "Hey, sorry that happened to you, we're going to go ahead and assign this to you xxxxxx-2 character and name him DIed-at-character-gen. Why don't you go home, build your own character with that boon and try again next week."

Seems like some of the posters in this thread would think that is a horrible miscarriage of justice.

The Exchange

Deran Castillian wrote:
Here is my problem with it. I go to a game store with my characters, but there is no scenario for my levels. I am forced to use a pregen to play and now I have to pick a character to apply it to. Now, I won't play a pregen at all and hurt a character that is not really playing. I will just leave the Pathfinder Society event and do something else. The only time a character should be in danger of dieing is when that character is playing.

So you'd rather change your plans and walk, than keep a list of unused numbers and put pregens on those? I'm not judging either way, just interested.

Do we really want a rule on the books that discourages people from playing?

We have to remember that we span the globe and our individual perspectives on how and where the game is played are very limited. We shouldn't dismiss anyones evidence out of hand just because it doesn't agree with our experience.

I think the biggest issue is that we are at >260 posts and nobody is quite sure how the rule works or what the implications are.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
AkosPrime wrote:
GM Lamplighter wrote:


That's not how negative levels work in Pathfinder.
Fair enough. I just wanted to point out that the new guide specifically allows permanent negative level effects to be carried forward instead of having to resolve them immediately at the end of the scenario, and at least raise some awareness of how that could apply to 'real' characters to whom a pregen 'credit/debit' is being applied.

Since the Pregen Chronicle isn't being applied yet, your lower level character would not suffer anything until the Chronicle was added to your stack.


medtec28 wrote:
But I think you are discounting the effect of basically tearing up two chronicle sheets in front of a player when they show up to play for the first time.

Maybe that speaks more as to how you handle a player death as opposed to the fact that the character died.

And this would not be an issue for new players since if they're playing for the first time, they're not risking an established character.

3/5

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Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

Rocks fall, characters die. This shouldn't be negated, but a lot of people even in this thread would rather misapply a cert, instead of taking risks. That to me is unbecoming.

Go forth, fight tooth and nail, live gloriously, die spectacularly! Not everyone enjoys that style of play, but they should respect the rules, and the core system.

I do not think this means what you think that it means...

Majuba wrote:
If they *do* assign it down to a brand-new character, it puts the group on notice that they may not be taking it seriously.

How would you even know it's a brand new character? All you're getting is a PFS ID# ... for some people, that might work for lower numbers, for those like me (where my -31 is currently 7.1) it's a bit less obvious what's a new character and what isn't.


Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
medtec28 wrote:
But I think you are discounting the effect of basically tearing up two chronicle sheets in front of a player when they show up to play for the first time.

Maybe that speaks more as to how you handle a player death as opposed to the fact that the character died.

And this would not be an issue for new players since if they're playing for the first time, they're not risking an established character.

Not much of a problem for me. My dice rebel at being behind the GM screen. As such I keep track of my successful attack rolls rather than my PC deaths.

They do lose out on the new player boon. But, to be honest, I have no clue what that boon is or does.

The Exchange

medtec28 wrote:
They do lose out on the new player boon. But, to be honest, I have no clue what that boon is or does.

Since that has to go on your -1 character, should we be encouraging new players with a pregen to report that as -2 and save -1 for a character that they are going to design themselves later?


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brock, no the other one... wrote:
medtec28 wrote:
They do lose out on the new player boon. But, to be honest, I have no clue what that boon is or does.
Since that has to go on your -1 character, should we be encouraging new players with a pregen to report that as -2 and save -1 for a character that they are going to design themselves later?

That seems like a prudent work-around solution that I will now employ. Thank you. Funny how the obvious can elude me sometimes.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
medtec28 wrote:
brock, no the other one... wrote:
medtec28 wrote:
They do lose out on the new player boon. But, to be honest, I have no clue what that boon is or does.
Since that has to go on your -1 character, should we be encouraging new players with a pregen to report that as -2 and save -1 for a character that they are going to design themselves later?
That seems like a prudent work-around solution that I will now employ. Thank you. Funny how the obvious can elude me sometimes.

Careful. Doing exactly that is why I don't *have* a –1.

I didn't know that if I deleted a character's online profile (even if it was just so I could recreate it), that it was lost forever.

Silver Crusade 5/5

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After having a talk with most of the Nebraska VO's (there's one more we need to talk to so that we are all on the same page) here is how we are going to handle this:

If a pregenerated character dies or needs some other condition cleared, that player will be able to use gold gained from that chronicle to clear that condition.

"But Mitch, blah blah blah held chronicle blah blah blah." Doesn't matter. If a person were playing their own PC and died, they'd be able to use wealth gained from that chronicle to pay for the raise.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Mitch Mutrux wrote:


If a pregenerated character dies or needs some other condition cleared, that player will be able to use gold gained from that chronicle to clear that condition.

That's the only feasible practice I can see working.

Grand Lodge

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Sin of Asmodeus wrote:

I don't pander, if that makes me rude and dismissive than ok.

I don't think I need to fix anything, and yes. People should be okay with dying.

And I think most people are fine with it when they feel they had options and choices that contributed to it. But dying and feeling like there was nothing you could do to prevent it is frustrating, and I think that our job as GMs and visible campaign members is to reduce frustration where possible.

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
See I really do love this campaign. The fear and knowledge that death walks the halls is fun, it keeps the campaign fresh.

I love it as well. I agree that the fear of death makes the game fun. But when you restrict your ability to deal with problems in some way, you should reduce the penalties as well, at least imo.

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
One campaign that I played in took away the fear of death and allowed characters to be generated at high levels which pushed people away. I'd like this campaign to continue onward, but if death becomes meaningless than this campaign too will die.

I don't think that this change affects one way or the other peoples ability to avoid death. This may be a regional thing, but I have NEVER seen a player play a pregen to avoid death. Most people I think make characters to enjoy playing them and accept the consequences, in my mind this change is attempting to fix a non-issue and having negative ramifications on the rest of the campaign.

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
Rocks fall, characters die. This shouldn't be negated, but a lot of people even in this thread would rather misapply a cert, instead of taking risks. That to me is unbecoming.

I only play pregens during specials. I would be willing to bet that's true for the majority of the people who use these boards. I think most people are more concerned with new players, and allowing Pathfinder to become accessible. This change is directly in opposition to that.

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
Go forth, fight tooth and nail, live gloriously, die spectacularly! Not everyone enjoys that style of play, but they should respect the rules, and the core system. Not make a mockery out of pregens, that once upon a time were there only to allow people who had low level characters to play tiers they didn't have characters for.

I fail to see how the first bit on the way you, and I, enjoy the game has anything to do with the rules or the core system. It's our responsibility as visible and prominent members of this living campaign to air our doubts and thoughts on changes to the system and their impact on our local play groups so that Tonya and the rest of campaign leadership can see the varying opinions and weigh them.

Once again, you're addressing what has in my experience has been a non-issue. What you're describing as the point of pregens is still the primary use of them in my region, along with filling out 3 man tables. If you have a different experience, make it known, relate an anecdote and show how this change fixes it. Don't just go on about all the problems with pregens.

Sin of Asmodeus wrote:
What pregens are used for now is a mockery. Maybe one day they'll word it so that you as I said before. Have to play a character in a tier if it's available. (Baring specials like Ire, etc).

I'd have no problem with that from a morals standpoint, I encourage people to play their characters and own their decisions, to display agency and inflict themselves upon the game and make their presence known. I want everyone to have a small part of this living campaign, as much as they can squeeze out of it.

But the logistics of what you suggest get dicey. What if a player would like to switch to a pregen to create a more balanced party? What if they forgot the character they wanted to play today, and would prefer a pregen over someone they're saving for a convention or special or something? What if they're still uncomfortable with the character they have in tier, and would like more time to work on them under the hood before bringing them out, and would like a pregen today? Too many headaches to fix in any reasonable manner I think.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Again - if the primary intent of the change, as stated by those "in the know" was to remove the abuse of players playing Pregens in a way that negatively impacted the other players at the table, I fail to see how this change makes any impact to remedying that specific problem. Jerk players will continue to be jerk players.

So either:

a) That is not the real reason.

or

b) This was not well thought out.

I have my thoughts on which of the two it was.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, Tennessee—Knoxville aka tchrman35

medtec28 wrote:
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
medtec28 wrote:

I noticed another unintended consequence of this.

Let's say you have a brand new player show up at your game day. We can all agree this is a good thing. Something that we should embrace and encourage.
You hand this new player their New Player boon and a pretend sheet, and then the dice betray them.
You have to hand them a chronicle that kills the character they haven't even built.

"Hey, thanks for coming out. Here are two sheets that give you nothing. Why don't you make a new character and come back next week. No, you cannot use that boon on that character, it can only be used on your very first character."

Is that person more or less likely to come back next week?

I think you're selling newbies short. On my very first session in playing AD+D, I and my entire party were wiped out by a cursed berserking sword. And technically we got nothing for the effort, agony, and death.

I still came back though.

And I spent most of my first gaming session plying in AD&D with my character at or below 0 HP for most of the session 3 separate times, and I continued to play for 30 years after that. But I think you are discounting the effect of basically tearing up two chronicle sheets in front of a player when they show up to play for the first time.

I think it's important to remember that we aren't selling (or promoting, advertivising or whatever word you want to use to describe it), this game we're selling the idea that "You will have fun playing this game."

I'm going to step back and tell you that I think their should be a risk of dying. That's what provides the tension in the games we play. That is a big part of the fun. "I beat that dragon!" Should mean something after all.

What I am saying is, we are always trying to recruit new players, we have Pathfinder Academy for part of that. A few months ago they introduced new player boons as well. I think it would be demoralizing to a new player to trash that boon for them and...

I think that, if I have a brand-new player on a table I know to be deadly, I'm going to suggest that they put down -2. I won't tell them that it's because the scenario is known to be deadly. I'm going to suggest that they start their -1 with their first self-made character. I mean, people used to put down -99 when a character died. This wouldn't be any different.

If they win, they get to start a second character later on with a little gold. If they die, they don't have to sac the new player boon.

Does that sound reasonable?

Liberty's Edge 4/5 Venture-Agent, Indiana—Hammond

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MisterSlanky wrote:

Again - if the primary intent of the change, as stated by those "in the know" was to remove the abuse of players playing Pregens in a way that negatively impacted the other players at the table, I fail to see how this change makes any impact to remedying that specific problem. Jerk players will continue to be jerk players.

So either:

a) That is not the real reason.

or

b) This was not well thought out.

I have my thoughts on which of the two it was.

I am trying to understand this change as well.

At Lightspeed Hobbies, where I GM and organize, most of the time someone plays a pregen is as a new player. Usually, we don't have someone register their characters on the spot, which this new rule seems to require.

I am mostly interested in how this impacts new players. (Caveat: I still have to sit down and read all of the new guide.) I worry that we may discourage new players.

As for jerks, I fear tht they will always be with us. Perhaps there can be a solution where a new player can keep a new player boon and apply it to a -2 character if the pregen dies.

I have no problem risking characters and consider risk and reward to be important. However, I worry about the risk of alienating potential new players.

Venture-Agent, Virginia—Alexandria aka AkosPrime

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Nefreet wrote:


Since the Pregen Chronicle isn't being applied yet, your lower level character would not suffer anything until the Chronicle was added to your stack.

Wouldn't that be the same with death effects then? In other words one doesn't deal with the death effect UNTIL the chronicle is applied? But if that was true, then we wouldn't even be talking about what the "real" character has to contribute to the cost of dealing with the death consequences. Why would it be that only some effects get applied immediately and others only when the chronicle is applied?

Sovereign Court 4/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

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brock, no the other one... wrote:
I think the biggest issue is that we are at >260 posts and nobody is quite sure how the rule works or what the implications are.

Amen.

If I play a L7 pregen and assign to my L4 PC. The Pregen dies, but I manage to raise funds to raise him so my PC lives. What chronicle sheet do I even write on what money I spent? The one that won't be applied for three more levels?

Silver Crusade 5/5

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
brock, no the other one... wrote:
I think the biggest issue is that we are at >260 posts and nobody is quite sure how the rule works or what the implications are.

Amen.

If I play a L7 pregen and assign to my L4 PC. The Pregen dies, but I manage to raise funds to raise him so my PC lives. What chronicle sheet do I even write on what money I spent? The one that won't be applied for three more levels?

Yes, at least that's how we plan on swinging it in Nebraska.

Shadow Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—San Francisco Bay Area South & West aka JohnF

That's my interpretation of what we're supposed to do, too.
But I'm sure it will be made abundantly clear shortly.


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This is just a horrible decision. Most pregens are played by new players who don't have a character at an appropriate level. Sub-optimal PCs played by players with sub-optimal tactics. Now when 7th level Kyra dies, your other character hundreds of miles away suddenly dies of a heart attack. Really really stupid. Because of this many pregen deaths will end up being hand-waved. So you are creating a rule a lot of people will just end up breaking, never a good idea.

1/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm actually of the 'play a pregen to balance a table/so I can play something when I don't have a character in range to play' camp.

This definitely has a chilling effect, to say the least. What if I sit down at the table that goes 'Oh, you're on a pregen, we shouldn't waste any resources on you.'?

Alternatively, the case in the past has been to *burn through all the pregen resources first*. If there's going to be a cost passed down via the chronicle sheet, what sort of motivation do I have as a player to volunteer any of that when I'll have to cover the pregen's res costs 'out of pocket'?

I'm hoping that this was a case of 'unintended consequences' that was applied in a vacuum of not having the new campaign conduct policy in place, and that it would be revised to last season's ruling on death to give the new conduct policy a year or so to have an impact.

Lantern Lodge 5/5

Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


This definitely has a chilling effect, to say the least. What if I sit down at the table that goes 'Oh, you're on a pregen, we shouldn't waste any resources on you.'?

Alternatively, the case in the past has been to *burn through all the pregen resources first*. If there's going to be a cost passed down via the chronicle sheet, what sort of motivation do I have as a player to volunteer any of that when I'll have to cover the pregen's res costs 'out of pocket'?

I'm hoping that this was a case of 'unintended consequences' that was applied in a vacuum of not having the new campaign conduct policy in place, and that it would be revised to last season's ruling on death to give the new conduct policy a year or so to have an impact.

Honestly, I think this was the intended consequence- -that the pregen is no longer a throwaway character, or worse yet, a "free wand" with a body attached to it like you describe above.

1/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Jeff Hazuka wrote:


Honestly, I think this was the intended consequence- -that the pregen is no longer a throwaway character, or worse yet, a "free wand" with a body attached to it like you describe above.

And yet the opposite effect is what I fear happening in certain gaming venues.

Not all places are awesome like PaizoCon or Gen Con or even some LGS.

Sometimes there are horrible GMs (or horrible players) and it's better to just avoid them and move on, but still, that's the singular play opportunity for a given scenario lost pretty much forever for folks that don't have replay opportunities.

Apologies for the negativity.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
AkosPrime wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Since the Pregen Chronicle isn't being applied yet, your lower level character would not suffer anything until the Chronicle was added to your stack.
Wouldn't that be the same with death effects then? In other words one doesn't deal with the death effect UNTIL the chronicle is applied? But if that was true, then we wouldn't even be talking about what the "real" character has to contribute to the cost of dealing with the death consequences. Why would it be that only some effects get applied immediately and others only when the chronicle is applied?

You've presumably read my other comments up thread.

It is impossible to have the actual character contribute at all.

If Campaign Leadership intends to somehow have an actual character contribute wealth, they're going to have to describe how it can be done.

Grand Lodge

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Here's an example of how this rule could also create negative feelings in some players and a suggestion on how to remove the RAW penalty for brand new players having their first PFS character dying before getting a chance to play him/her.

A player has played an adventure path in 'pre-gen campaign mode' and has applied some/all of the chronicle sheets to one of her PFS characters. She has not reached the levels of of some/all of the chronicle sheets yet. She has gained these chronicle sheets before the guide for season 8 was released.

She goes to an event and her PFS character is not high enough level yet to play her character in the scenario being played. She plays an iconic pre-gen. The pre-gen dies. Let's say she does not have the resources to purchase raise dead. Now her PFS character is dead. What happens to all the higher-level chronicle sheets she has assigned to her PFS character?

Another example: sanctioned modules (Plunder & Peril for example) that grant a bonus chronicle sheet if all three previous chronicle sheets were assigned to the same PFS character. If a player has already played two of the three parts of the module before the season 8 guide was released - they now have to gamble the character if they want to be eligible to obtain the bonus chronicle sheet.

I suggest that the chronicle sheet for the scenario/adventure the pre-gen died in to be resolved when the assigned PFS character reaches the level of the pre-gen played in the fatal scenario/adventure. This would allow players the option of being sure they save money/prestige points before they reach the level of the pre-gen. This would also make it so new players who play a non-first level iconic the ability to not have their very first PFS die as a result of the very first PFS game the player plays in.


Page 19, first paragraph includes "Characters can use the rewards from the Chronicle sheet they earned in order to resolve any conditions."

That should answer the question of how the attached PFS character can spend money towards bringing their character back to life.

The next paragraph starts with "A character who ultimately doesn't resolve conditions during or immediately after the adventure must be marked as dead."

Those two sentences make it so you have money you know your assigned PFs character has access to.

Someone noted that the iconic pre-gens have gear comparable to the character wealth by level table. It costs 5450 gold for Raise Dead. A level 4 PC has 6000 gold (so 3000 by selling). A level 7 PC has 23,500 gold (enough for raise dead by selling at half price).

So playing a level 7 pre-gen should not be much a risk, as you can spend the gold from the chronicle sheet gained. That is if we are allowed to wait to resolve the death status until the assigned PFS character reaches the level of the pre-gen played.


Amiros Valeri wrote:

Page 19, first paragraph includes "Characters can use the rewards from the Chronicle sheet they earned in order to resolve any conditions.

Someone noted that the iconic pre-gens have gear comparable to the character wealth by level table. It costs 5450 gold for Raise Dead. A level 4 PC has 6000 gold (so 3000 by selling). A level 7 PC has 23,500 gold (enough for raise dead by selling at half price).

So playing a level 7 pre-gen should not be much a risk, as you can spend the gold from the chronicle sheet gained. That is if we are allowed to wait to resolve the death status until the assigned PFS character reaches the level of the pre-gen played.

So mabe a simpler way to do it would be to say "if the pregen dies the PC gets a chronicle with reduced or no rewards on it"? I can understand how that works from a bookkeeping viewpoint.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It's about the only way.

Clean up the current wording to read that a 1st/4th/7th level Pregen must spend at least X/Y/Z gold from their Chronicle earnings before selling gear to make up the rest.

Toss in some inclusion of party contributions.

That's a solid foundation for handling the costs of death. And it can be accomplished with nothing more than a pen and a Chronicle.


If the intent is for all pre-gen credit to work this way (not just the iconics) then expand '...must pay X/Y/Z gold from their Chronicle earnings..." that includes A/B/C/etc. that includes the surcharge for all pre-gen levels.

Working with what they have given us, an example extrapolation would be as follows:

Lv 1: 0 gp
Lv 2: 250 gp
Lv 3: 500 gp
Lv 4: 1000 gp
Lv 5: 1250 gp
Lv 6: 1500 gp
Lv 7: 2000 gp
Lv 8: 2500 gp
Lv 9: 3000 gp
Lv 10: 4000 gp
Lv 11: 5000 gp
Lv 12: 7000 gp
Lv 13: 8000 gp
Lv 14: 10,000 gp
Lv 15: 14,000 gp
Lv 16: 16,000 gp
Lv 17: 20,000 gp
Lv 18: 28,000 gp
Lv 19: 32,000 gp
Lv 20: 40,000 gp

The above is working with the cost is doubled for every 3 levels (Lv 4 = 1000gp , Lv 7 = 2000 gp). Another way is to make it + 1000 gp per additional 3 levels. A third option is to make it so only every three levels has a new higher cost surcharge: so that you must pay the gold surcharge that is the lowest given level closest to your level OR to the highest given level that is closest to your level. So working with option 2 (+1000 gp per 3 levels), some examples would be:

If your pre-gen is level 3 you must pay 0 gold (if using the cost for the highest level below/equal to your level or 1000 gold (if using the cost for lowest level above/equal to the pre-gen's level).

If your pregen is level 8 then the surcharge would be either 2000 gold (if using highest lower level value) or 3000 gold (if using lowest higher level value)


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How would people feel about it if they change it to the following:

"If your pre-gen dies, and you do not remove the death status, you apply the Chronicle sheet to your associated PFS character with 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 Gold and all boons and items are crossed off the Chronicle Sheet. The associated character does not gain any statuses that the pre-gen gained."

There is still a penalty with handling it this way. Most players will not be able to play that scenario for credit again (since only GM stars grant replay credit for non-evergreen scenarios/modules). That is still a risk. It is a good way to prevent new players from losing interest in PFS by having their first character die before even creating the character. The player has played the scenario and cannot play it again (for credit). It lets the new player become aware that characters can die without forcing them to have their own actual character die before even getting the chance to play him/her.

The Exchange

Amiros Valeri wrote:

How would people feel about it if they change it to the following:

"If your pre-gen dies, and you do not remove the death status, you apply the Chronicle sheet to your associated PFS character with 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 Gold and all boons and items are crossed off the Chronicle Sheet. The associated character does not gain any statuses that the pre-gen gained."

That's worth discussing. I'd note that 1 XP, 0 PP, 0 Gold, would actually be a slightly worse penalty, if a higher level of risk is wanted.


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brock, no the other one... wrote:
Amiros Valeri wrote:

How would people feel about it if they change it to the following:

"If your pre-gen dies, and you do not remove the death status, you apply the Chronicle sheet to your associated PFS character with 0 XP, 0 PP, 0 Gold and all boons and items are crossed off the Chronicle Sheet. The associated character does not gain any statuses that the pre-gen gained."

That's worth discussing. I'd note that 1 XP, 0 PP, 0 Gold, would actually be a slightly worse penalty, if a higher level of risk is wanted.

That is more of a penalty as it means the character is further to leveling up without the normal resources that normally go along with leveling up. With that you could have a level 1 PFS character potentially reach higher levels with still having only a beginning PC's wealth (150 gold) with nothing else. I think people would agree that is definitely a penalty.

Player A: "What do you mean you are level 3 with no fame or additional wealth?"

Player B: "I have had some really bad luck playing pre-gens."

1/5

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

This recent tangent is predicated on gaining all gold from a scenario.

What if the party TPKs on the first round of the first encounter?

Does the GM look sidelong at everyone and go 'This never happened'?

Liberty's Edge 5/5

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Nefreet wrote:
AkosPrime wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Since the Pregen Chronicle isn't being applied yet, your lower level character would not suffer anything until the Chronicle was added to your stack.
Wouldn't that be the same with death effects then? In other words one doesn't deal with the death effect UNTIL the chronicle is applied? But if that was true, then we wouldn't even be talking about what the "real" character has to contribute to the cost of dealing with the death consequences. Why would it be that only some effects get applied immediately and others only when the chronicle is applied?

You've presumably read my other comments up thread.

It is impossible to have the actual character contribute at all.

If Campaign Leadership intends to somehow have an actual character contribute wealth, they're going to have to describe how it can be done.

As far as I'm aware, you've always been able to have the real character contribute wealth and PP.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Wei Ji the Learner wrote:

This recent tangent is predicated on gaining all gold from a scenario.

What if the party TPKs on the first round of the first encounter?

Does the GM look sidelong at everyone and go 'This never happened'?

Sometimes.

3/5 Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro aka MadScientistWorking

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claudekennilol wrote:
Kurthnaga wrote:
I'm not saying there shouldn't be risk. I'm saying that you shouldn't be punished for playing a character you have no control over. Especially for people with middling system mastery, imagine playing the Brawler pregen from Serpent's Rise with no experience with the class. Your effectiveness is likely going to be drastically lower than normal.

I'm not at all trying to be dismissive of your point, but I wouldn't use the brawler as your example. As long as you know some good combat feats that's all that's really required. I've never played a brawler but played it for both specials. I immediately made a list of what feats I could qualify for and what would be good to take. For instance

** spoiler omitted **.

I would say the magus in the first one would be horrible for someone who doesn't know how a magus works--but for a brawler, you just go "oh I can spend a move action to get two combat feats" and as long as you know feats you're good.

The Brawler definitely has a degree of system mastery to it. Hell given your spoilers there is a good chance the pregen starts off rather wonky feat wise given PFS's understandable propensity not to deviate too far from the Core set of books.

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