Wording clarification. Is magic a weapon or other, and if so when?

[Winterwolf93]

I had a question about spell combat. specifically How it is worded.

Class Feature Spell Combat:

At 1st level, a magus learns to cast spells and wield his weapons at the same time. This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast. To use this ability, the magus must have one hand free (even if the spell being cast does not have somatic components), while wielding a light or one-handed melee weapon in the other hand. As a full-round action, he can make all of his attacks with his melee weapon at a –2 penalty and can also cast any spell from the magus spell list with a casting time of 1 standard action (any attack roll made as part of this spell also takes this penalty). If he casts this spell defensively, he can decide to take an additional penalty on his attack rolls, up to his Intelligence bonus, and add the same amount as a circumstance bonus on his concentration check. If the check fails, the spell is wasted, but the attacks still take the penalty. A magus can choose to cast the spell first or make the weapon attacks first, but if he has more than one attack, he cannot cast the spell between weapon attacks.

While this is all fine and good The part I want to look at is this

"This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast."

Is Magic Considered a weapon?
Wanting to get an answer For this I looked at the PRG:CR (Core rule book) to get a clearer definition. This is what I found

from Pg206 Pathfinder roleplaying game core rulebook :

From creating a whisp of light to causing the ground itself to shatter and break, spells are a source of immense power. a spell is a one-time magical effect. Spells come in two types: Arcane ( cast by bards, Sorcerers, and wizards) and divine (cast by clerics, druids, and experienced paladins and rangers). Some spellcasters select their spells from a limited list of spells known, while others have access to a wide variety of options.
Most spellcasters prepare spells in advance-whether from a spellbook or through prayers-while some cast spells spontaneously without preparation. Despite these different ways characters use to learn or prepare their spells, when it comes to casting them, the spells are very much alike.

Casting Spells

Whether a spell is arcane or divine, and whether a character prepares spells in advance or chooses them on the spot, casting a spell works the same way.
Choosing a Spell

First you must choose which spell to cast. If you're a cleric, druid, experienced paladin, experienced ranger, or wizard, you select from among spells prepared earlier in the day and not yet cast (see Preparing Wizard Spells and Preparing Divine Spells).

If you're a bard or sorcerer, you can select any spell you know, provided you are capable of casting spells of that level or higher.

To cast a spell, you must be able to speak (if the spell has a verbal component), gesture (if it has a somatic component), and manipulate the material components or focus (if any). Additionally, you must concentrate to cast a spell.

If a spell has multiple versions, you choose which version to use when you cast it. You don't have to prepare (or learn, in the case of a bard or sorcerer) a specific version of the spell.

Once you've cast a prepared spell, you can't cast it again until you prepare it again. (If you've prepared multiple copies of a single spell, you can cast each copy once.) If you're a bard or sorcerer, casting a spell counts against your daily limit for spells of that spell level, but you can cast the same spell again if you haven't reached your limit.

If we can come to a clarified definition of what a spell is and how it apply to the wording we can then start Figuring out other things such as the dervish dance wording Vs the slashing grace wording.

And If we do clarify that spells are weapons then at what point are they? when I start casting or when I deliver the spell?

What do you guys think?

[Saethori]

Spells aren't weapons. But some kinds of spells can benefit from things that benefit weapons.

Specifically, rays, which count as enough of a ranged weapon that you can take Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in them.

[dragonhunterq]

What exactly are you trying to clarify, because your question, as posed, has one clear cut answer: Magic is not a weapon.
Magic can sometimes create a weapon-like effect, and rays and touch spells share certain similarities to weapons and can benefit from certain effects (such as bards inspire courage) in the same way weapons can.
Still, fundamentally, magic is not actually a weapon.

[Winterwolf93]

dragonhunterq wrote:

What exactly are you trying to clarify, because your question, as posed, has one clear cut answer: Magic is not a weapon.

Magic can sometimes create a weapon-like effect, and rays and touch spells share certain similarities to weapons and can benefit from certain effects (such as bards inspire courage) in the same way weapons can.
Still, fundamentally, magic is not actually a weapon.

Im trying to clarify for the Magus Builds that use Dervish dance.

since the conflicting feat fencing grace there has been a lot of misconceptions on how spell combat works.
"This functions much like two-weapon fighting, but the off-hand weapon is a spell that is being cast."

Dervish dance:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/dervish-dance-combat

Fencing Grace:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/fencing-grace-combat

[Winterwolf93]

My Big overall question I'm trying to get at is If dervish dance will work with spell combat or not?

[dragonhunterq]

I'm really not seeing the misconception, it seems pretty clear cut to me.
Am I on the right lines if I answer thusly:
Spells are not weapons.
They do not count as weapons for the purpose of Dervish Dance or X-Grace.
That line in spell combat is drawing an analogy to help you understand how spell combat works. It is not telling you that spells are weapons.

[Dr Styx]

The magus spell combat is explained as two-weapon fighting because it lets the magus attack with his one light weapon twice (fist as his normal weapon attack, second to complete the touch of a cast spell), with the -2 on both to hit roll (just as two-weapon fighting).

Dervish dance lets you use a Scimitar (which is not a light weapon) instead of a light weapon to use Dex instead of Str with your to hit rolls. I would say with this feat, you could use with spell combat (you are still only using one weapon). Still with -2 on each to hit roll.

Fencing Grace lets you add Dex instead of Str to your damage rolls with a Rapier (which is a light weapon). I would say with this feat, you could use with spell combat (you are still only using one weapon).

Both Feats say they can't be used if you are using a weapon in your off hand. Magus spell combat you must have your off hand free. So no conflict.

[ngc7293]

"wording clarification"
Under Spell combat a magus isn't restricted to light weapons only.
It specifically says "while wielding a light or one-handed melee
weapon in the other hand"

IMHO, if Spells are not weapons, then that 20th level wizard is the least powerful character in the group because he has no weapons on him. That makes you start thinking that the 20th level Rogue is powerful. :)

[Claxon]

Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace do not work with Spell Combat anymore.

They specifically errata'd the feats to include the line:

Quote:

You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

specifically to prevent it from working.

However, Dervish Dance does still work (for now) because it lacks this wording.

I've heard rumors that the feat is going to be reprinted and updated to include the same line in the future, but I'm not sure if it's accurate.

[Diego Rossi]

Claxon wrote:

Fencing Grace and Slashing Grace do not work with Spell Combat anymore.

They specifically errata'd the feats to include the line:

Quote:

You do not gain this benefit while fighting with two weapons or using flurry of blows, or any time another hand is otherwise occupied.

specifically to prevent it from working.

However, Dervish Dance does still work (for now) because it lacks this wording.

I've heard rumors that the feat is going to be reprinted and updated to include the same line in the future, but I'm not sure if it's accurate.

Can you link a discussion supporting what you say? It seem a very far fetched interpretation. If we accept the argument that casting a spell is the same as having a occupied hand, using claws or punching will occupy that hand too.

AFAIK "occupied" relate to holding something in that hand, not to using it in some way.

[Iff]

Diego, it may seem farfetched to you, but it is the official interpretation. See the FAQ on Slashing Grace (Link). Fencing Grace has the exact same language and is covered by the same FAQ.

[vhok]

more and more reasons to never play a martial character. caster 4 life!

[Claxon]

Thanks Iff for posting a link to the FAQ.

Diego, is that sufficient support? Or did you mean for my statement that Dervish Dance may get the same treatment in a future supplement?

[Diego Rossi]

Claxon wrote:

Thanks Iff for posting a link to the FAQ.

Diego, is that sufficient support? Or did you mean for my statement that Dervish Dance may get the same treatment in a future supplement?

It is enough. I am perplexed but it is enough.

[Diego Rossi]

Claxon wrote:

Thanks Iff for posting a link to the FAQ.

Diego, is that sufficient support? Or did you mean for my statement that Dervish Dance may get the same treatment in a future supplement?

It is enough. I am perplexed but it is enough. The official position is clear.