So the Hell's Vengeance Player's Guide recommends that antipaladin as one of its class/archetype choices. What I want to know is how this is supposed to work in anything that isn't PvP?
One of our players has opted to take that path, sadly.
Our first game was pretty bad overall. The antipaladin player was never supposed to have been part of the game in the first place, but I guess he either coerced the GM into getting in, or she invited him out of feelings of guilt. Either way, he spent the night criticizing my brother's character choices, criticizing my (real-world) religion, and actively causing chaos everywhere he went for no other reason than to annoy my friend's Hell Knight (a "law is all" Judge Dredd concept).
If that wasn't enough, he openly bragged about how powerful he was going to become, and how "you all better have good Fortitude saves, because I'm infecting all of you in a couple of levels!"
I understand that there is a lot of out-of-game things that need to be dealt with here, and I intend to talk to the GM about it, but what I really want to discuss is the following:
How does a party ever survive having an anti-paladin in it for long? Even if he chose to play the more controlled LE tyrant archetype (he didn't), then he would still be a walking, talking, festering plague factory that passively weakens everyone in the group just by being there. How does the party even begin to deal with that? How could an antipaladin ever be anything other than a loner?
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Yep, purely a player issue. Antipaladin abilities pretty explicitly only work on enemies, and unless you're regularly frenching the Antipaladin, he's not really a disease vector (and honestly, this shouldn't come up terribly often in play with an AP PC, due to onset times being a thing).
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What Rysky said, the guy is an a!@!+!%, class choice is largely irrelevant, even if it says something about the person.
Sorry man, that's rough, i'd kick him out though, it's not going to get better.
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How does a party ever survive having an anti-paladin in it for long? Even if he chose to play the more controlled LE tyrant archetype (he didn't), then he would still be a walking, talking, festering plague factory that passively weakens everyone in the group just by being there. How does the party even begin to deal with that? How could an antipaladin ever be anything other than a loner?
I have a tyrant Antipaladin in my group who wants to become a Hellknight, so that he can uphold Law in these tumultuous times.
I also have a CE Necromant in my group, who needs some help to get his ritual going to become a lich.
They work together, because they have common goal and because they see that can assets to each other. At the moment they work together out of necessity, but I think they will become very fond of each other.
I think that neither the alignment nor the class are the problem. In my opinion, if you are going to run a Evil campaign, the PCs need a stronger motivation than usual to stick together. But that's something you set up BEFORE you begin, as well as setting up rules, that being Evil isn't a free pass to be dick.
Yeah your problem is the player. He's being a dick, possibly because he thinks that's the only way to play CE. Explain to him that for at least you and your brother (presumably) this is unfun and this level of antagonism makes the game unbearable.
The easiest thing to do is to ask the player to redo the character as a Tyrant Antipaladin which is LE, if he thinks that CE has to be a jerk.
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Aren't all the other players evil? Yes, yes they are. If one evil guy threatens 3-4 evil guys about infecting them in a few levels what do you think the 3-4 evil guys would do to him? Off him, that's what. Maybe when it comes time to re-roll he'll re-think his behavior and motivations.
Antipaladin abilities pretty explicitly only work on enemies...
Where is it explicitly stated exactly? Even if we solve all the out-of-game problems, the character's very existence still puts the other characters at risk.
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Yeah they don't get an "Aura of Filth" or anything, and there's nothing stating that an Antipaladin can't be cured of any Diseases they have.
Also if an AP in a group caught a disease then it's very likely the rest of the party was exposed to the contagion as well.
An Antipaladin catching a disease is no more malevolent than any other party member catching the same disease.
I am playing an antipaladin in Hell's Vengeance, Tyrant archetype. Even if I wasn't LE I would still be playing evil smart. My personality is based on Baron Gavin Tael (for you young'uns see Birthright: Barony of Ghoere).
Smart, law abiding, patient, plays the long con. So far we've only killed a dog, a cat (strange fey critter), and a chicken (cockatrice). We're trying not to fan the flames of rebellion because WE LIVE HERE and we want the town to still be standing when we're done. That said, we're still menacing and intimidating to the peasants. We just don't take many steps to correct their incorrect assumptions :D
Sadly, the reason the Anti-Paladin gets such a bad rep is because of the players that it tends to attract than anything else.
I agree with everyone else though OP, it's the player and not the class that is causing your problems. Honestly, if he's talking like that the whole time he's at a session, call him out on his crap. If the other players and GM disagree with you and want to continue the abuse....drop out? You don't have to stay in a game that's bad because it's only wasting your time.
Diseases have their own rules for spreading. If he has several diseases, he doesn't need some kind of offensive aura to spread them; they do that all on their own. Some might require a bite, others contact, and still others far less.
If he contracts leprosy, the shakes, and slimy doom, for example; then anyone trying to heal him via touch risks contracting all three!
And that assumes that any inhaled diseases he contracts don't create an airborne cloud of death about him. If the GM goes by that interpretation, just being nearby could ultimately prove to be quite lethal.
There is still no "disease aura" though, he'd have to touch, bite, cough on, or use his touch of curruption + cruelty in order to infect some one else.
That all falls into PVP when it's directed at party members.
Again, it's not the class, it's the player.
Touch works both ways, friend. Nobody can even heal him with cure spells (or use any other touch range spell on him) without exposing themselves.
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Touch works both ways, friend. Nobody can even heal him with cure spells (or use any other touch range spell on him) without exposing themselves.There is still no "disease aura" though, he'd have to touch, bite, cough on, or use his touch of curruption + cruelty in order to infect some one else.
That all falls into PVP when it's directed at party members.
Again, it's not the class, it's the player.
If he's threatening everyone why would they WANT to heal him?!
That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.
Isn't that somewhat necessary to be able to adventure together successfully?
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If dude is carrying that many diseases why would anyone want to touch him.
It would be like going to a bath house in a trailer park.
That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.
Only if he gets himself infected with a touch-vector disease first.
Isn't that somewhat necessary to be able to adventure together successfully?
Not really. He can heal himself if he's going to be such a jerk.
Furthermore, he's clearly not even remotely concerned with "adventuring together successfully," so the point is moot.
That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.Only if he gets himself infected with a touch-vector disease first.
He's made it pretty clear that, that is his intent.
Cast remove disease on him, like you would do with ANYONE AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO HAS CAUGHT A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE.That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.
Isn't that somewhat necessary to be able to adventure together successfully?
Except for a ranger, I don't believe we have any divine casters in the party. He could potentially do a lot of damage before the ranger gains access (is it even on their list) or before we are able to afford to pay someone else to do it.
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That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.Only if he gets himself infected with a touch-vector disease first.He's made it pretty clear that, that is his intent.
Except for a ranger, I don't believe we have any divine casters in the party. He could potentially do a lot of damage before the ranger gains access (is it even on their list) or before we are able to afford to pay someone else to do it.Cast remove disease on him, like you would do with ANYONE AND EVERYONE ELSE WHO HAS CAUGHT A CONTAGIOUS DISEASE.That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.
Isn't that somewhat necessary to be able to adventure together successfully?
If you don't have anyway to combat disease and you encounter diseases you're kinda f%@%ed even if there wasn't an Antipaladin in the party.
That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.
Isn't that somewhat necessary to be able to adventure together successfully?
Not true. He can be safrly touched, unless he intentionally try to infect himself with diseases to make advrnturing with him impossible. Any player xsn disrupt the game If they want to, regardless of class or slignment. I have seen it done with LG paladins and CN kender (from Krynn) rogues. If he does, don't Heal him, becsuse he pretty much tries to make him unlikable enough for the rest of the party hating him.
I'd talk with the GM. If he wants to okay this AP, he has to vut this behaviour right now. Otherwise this char will sabotage the campaign
Alignment of characters is always something that can be worked out. Alignment of players, and their douchiness rating, unfortunately that's a huge issue all its own.
If your GM isn't willing to step in and preserve the enjoyment of the group as a whole, you could ask yourself, "Is it worth staying for the conclusion of this, or should I just come back later."
That's not the point. The point is there can't be any physical contact whatsoever once he hits 3rd-level.
Isn't that somewhat necessary to be able to adventure together successfully?
He's not likely to stay infected with any diseases he does catch for long, what with antipaladin saves and all. Voluntarily failing saving throws for anything other than spells is at GM's discretion; the RAW only covers doing so for spells.
I definitely agree with the "just kill him" option. He'll probably moan, shriek, and complain after the fact, but he can either make a new character or leave.
On another note, what kind of idiot is the GM? Why is she allowing this to happen?
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On another note, what kind of idiot is the GM? Why is she allowing this to happen?
It's only been one game so far, man, so take it easy. The GM likely didn't even hear the remark about us needing to have good saves. She's likely smarter than any one of the rest of us (totally not an idiot), but is often distracted by her family.
The player being antagonistic against Christians (and religion in general) is nothing new to any of us; it having recently developed in his personality over the past year. It's aggravating, sure, and we've asked him at various points to keep his mouth shut about it despite his feelings (if only out of respect for us), but there's too much history there for us to simply abandon the friendship over it. It also doesn't help that another player, the GM's husband, has grown quite the distaste for religion himself, ever since studying it in college.
(And it's not like the rest of us shove it down their throats all the time or anything, not even for little things, like verbalizing prayers out loud at their dinner table. That doesn't keep them from making fun of it in front of the rest of us though.)
Multiple players, including myself and the GM, have called the antipaladin player out on criticizing other peoples' characters though.
The Hellknight player has already called him out on the in-game antagonism.
He'll likely get another chance in a second game. If his general attitude doesn't improve though, he's going to end up with the whole table against him.
If he wants to PVP, PVP right back. Assuming you aren't playing a good character, kill his after he tries to infect you or whatever. It's a lot more difficult for him to ruin the game if his character is 6 feet under.
As for how antipaladin works without PvP, it's similar to a paladin. The party puts aside its differences to get along and work towards a larger goal. The antipaladin can either get diseases that transmit on injury, or accepts that they'll need to wear gloves around the party. Touch spells aren't a problem- those can be delivered through gloves, unlike contact diseases. The antipaladin can load up on diseases for important targets, and let his system clear them out after.
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If you're unanimously unwilling to dump him, and if both player and character refuse to learn their lessons, I'd suggest having the GM and every player but that one have an aside discussion of "What Are We Going To Do With This Guy?" Air your character and player grievances.
In-game, ask the antipaladin, "Why are you so intent on, and proud of, harming your allies?" If it's "Because I'm EVIL!" so are you and you don't want to sneeze on your friends while they're eating, or whatever he plans on doing to you.
If you don't want to teamkill him first, there's the passive-aggressive approach of signaling a charge, then letting him wade into combat all by himself. It'll hurt his feelings, but since he's proud of antagonizing everyone, any method of getting him to stop will do that.
Also, even if you were in another religion, insulting people purely because they're religious is just putting you down to make him feel superior. It isn't so much that he's an antipaladin, but that he's a jerk. Of course, antipaladins are the most obviously attractive option for jerkery. If his guy dies and he makes up a cleric of Rovagug without Selective Channel, the same issues will still be there.
As to "how does an antipaladin work as part of a team?" I actually want to try a Gorumite antipaladin, using an archetype that gets rid of spells. He doesn't know the specifics, but sees violence-that-begets-more-violence as his sacred mission, happy that there are people willing to help him in this. He wouldn't hold anything against people who try to kill him (though he might be happy if a former pacifist swore to stop him), and if his friends make an effort (showing him that violence for its own sake just ruins everything, or giving him someone he'd want to protect), he just might rise and become a paladin. Though I don't know when I'd ever play as this guy.
On another note, what kind of idiot is the GM? Why is she allowing this to happen?It's only been one game so far, man, so take it easy. The GM likely didn't even hear the remark about us needing to have good saves. She's likely smarter than any one of the rest of us (totally not an idiot), but is often distracted by her family.
The player being antagonistic against Christians (and religion in general) is nothing new to any of us; it having recently developed in his personality over the past year. It's aggravating, sure, and we've asked him at various points to keep his mouth shut about it despite his feelings (if only out of respect for us), but there's too much history there for us to simply abandon the friendship over it. It also doesn't help that another player, the GM's husband, has grown quite the distaste for religion himself, ever since studying it in college.
(And it's not like the rest of us shove it down their throats all the time or anything, not even for little things, like verbalizing prayers out loud at their dinner table. That doesn't keep them from making fun of it in front of the rest of us though.)
Multiple players, including myself and the GM, have called the antipaladin player out on criticizing other peoples' characters though.
The Hellknight player has already called him out on the in-game antagonism.
He'll likely get another chance in a second game. If his general attitude doesn't improve though, he's going to end up with the whole table against him.
I'm all for playing Antipaladins. Also I abhor christianism.
But even so, if he's in a party with other characters, it is STUPID to antagonize them unless you're much more powerful than all of them combined.
If I was a GM, I would just let all the other players gang-up on him and kill him for it. Specially if they're Evil or Neutral. Evil characters when threatening other evil characters are looking to die or to kill, there's no way other evil characters would take this on stride or "forgive him" for the good of the party or the mission (unless they're very lawful, that is, and even so, Lawful Evil characters would try to find a loophole to kill him in battle or to let him die).