RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
Everything can be boiled down to just simply a genre. It is the fanatics that care to discover in detail the nuances and subgenres.
So, "Hollywood movies" can "be boiled down to just simply a genre", and the difference between Psycho and American Pie is just "nuances and subgenres" that only "the fanatics" are interested "to discover in detail"?
Seems odd to me, but as long as you're applying that framework evenly across the board, I see no harm.
|
Everything can be boiled down to just simply a genre. It is the fanatics that care to discover in detail the nuances and subgenres.So, "Hollywood movies" can "be boiled down to just simply a genre", and the difference between Psycho and American Pie is just "nuances and subgenres" that only "the fanatics" are interested "to discover in detail"?
For you? Doesn't sound like it. For my father? Yeap, that's his take on it.
Seems odd to me, but as long as you're applying that framework evenly across the board, I see no harm.
Using your own chosen examples it may seem odd. However, consider country music and how you considered it a narrow sub-genre earlier in the thread. Maybe not so odd now?
Also Anime is just sort of a weird category. Pretty much all the anime I watch is chosen because of topic. Blindly going into anime seems really weird. I loved Attack on Titan and Cowboy Bebop, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in some high school drama just because it also is anime."Also American TV is just sort of a weird category. Pretty much all the American TV I watch is chosen because of topic. Blindly going into American TV seems really weird. I loved Arrow and Grimm, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in some crime-scene police drama just because it also is American TV."
This community can be really fascinating to observe sometimes. ;)
Exactly my point. I watch anime that falls into the horror/fantasy/science fiction genre. Just like I watch regular TV and movies that fall into those categories.
This is why I don't get why someone would form an opinion on anime based on a random sample.
e.g. I agree with you that anime is a style/medium, not a genre in an of itself.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Seems odd to me, but as long as you're applying that framework evenly across the board, I see no harm.Using your own chosen examples it may seem odd. However, consider country music and how you considered it a narrow sub-genre earlier in the thread. Maybe not so odd now?
Um, I never called country music a narrow subgenre. So... still just as odd. But again, if you're even-handed with it, I see no harm in that view. Using the term "genre" for broader categories might lead to confusion, but once you explain that you consider any sort of categorization to be a genre, that should clear it right up.
Let's examine the parallels again.
Broad categories:
American cinema, American music, anime
Genres:
Action, country, fantasy
Subgenres:
Superhero movies, folk music, magical high school
Now, if you want to take each of those broad categories and say "Eh, it basically boils down to a genre," then that's fine with me. It might bug me on the semantics level, but I'm not going to gripe about it too much.
But if you treat the first two broad categories as broad categories, and then take "anime" and only apply the whole "it basically boils down to a genre" thing to just that one; that's when we start getting into potentially objectionable territory.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Also Anime is just sort of a weird category. Pretty much all the anime I watch is chosen because of topic. Blindly going into anime seems really weird. I loved Attack on Titan and Cowboy Bebop, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in some high school drama just because it also is anime."Also American TV is just sort of a weird category. Pretty much all the American TV I watch is chosen because of topic. Blindly going into American TV seems really weird. I loved Arrow and Grimm, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in some crime-scene police drama just because it also is American TV."
This community can be really fascinating to observe sometimes. ;)
Exactly my point. I watch anime that falls into the horror/fantasy/science fiction genre. Just like I watch regular TV and movies that fall into those categories.
This is why I don't get why someone would form an opinion on anime based on a random sample.
e.g. I agree with you that anime is a style/medium, not a genre in an of itself.
That leaves me wondering why you opened with "Anime is sort of a weird category". If it's just like the American TV category, then what's weird about it?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As I said earlier, we basically treat "foreign film" as a genre in the US.
Which is also really bad. It just doesn't seem to come up as much around this corner of the internet as the anime topic does.
The surprising thing may be that anime rates as a whole genre, not just part of "foreign".
British TV is starting to get to that point in America as well, or is at least on its way, thanks largely to BBC.
Both are steps in the right direction, with a good long way to go yet.
Zeppeli's and Speedwagon's.It's a good thing Phantom Blood is mercifully short, since Dio is honestly its only redeeming quality.I think you're selling Zeppeli's hat short.
Don't forget the frog punch! (We swear this all makes sense in context!)
See you take exception to folks calling anime a genre, but do the same thing to country music. In this instance, shouldn't anime be a genre of Japanese film?
That would be like calling cartoons a genre of american film, and that would be a horrible insult to cartoons.
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
See you take exception to folks calling anime a genre, but do the same thing to country music.
If you feel that "genre" isn't the right organizational tier for country music, I'm totally open to that. Wikipedia calls it a genre, but I'm not going to sit here insisting people acknowledge that anime's not a genre but then not listen when someone tells me something else isn't a genre either. Feel free to explain the details; I'd be happy to become a touch more learned about music. :)
In this instance, shouldn't anime be a genre of Japanese film?
Typically, "genre" is an organizational division based on the type of content or themes. Things like sci-fi, horror, mystery, romance, and so forth. It would be logically impossible for something which contains several major genres to itself be a genre. You can't be the same tier as the things you would be subdivided into.
Since anime contains most (all?) major genres, it cannot simultaneously be among them.
Furthermore, anime is by definition a medium/art form, not a genre. The term refers to the entire animated media industry of Japan (and, depending on whom you ask, possibly anything from outside Japan that's mimicking the style).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Disclaimer: I am a manga/anime fan, currently halfway through Macross Delta and Seven Deadly Sins. So yeah, if you hope for some quality harping on how weaboo wuxia bullcrap killed Gary Gygax, not here.
Anyway. I've noticed a conjecture. Several of the most outspoken "martial-caster disparity/Fighters need to be more awesome/Failzo failed us again by failing" people are big on action anime. Either they profess it openly here, or a cursory glance at the Internet reveals their passionate presence on anime forums or their YouTube channels full of Ninja Scroll clips or their 18+ Sailor Moon tumblrs. Also, Book of Nine Swords was the bestest d20 supplement ever.
This got me thinking. Perhaps, after watching this, this and of course this, their expectations regarding sword-swinging characters are at a level which Pathfinder, a game designed mostly by non-anime-watching folks who apparently envision high level Fighters more something like this, cannot quite satisfy. Which leads to frustrations elaborated in all the locked threads.
Maybe there is a game out there which caters better to running barefoot on clouds, swinging your sword so that mountains are torn assunder, EXCEPT YOUR SWORD DOESN'T EVEN TOUCH THESE MOUNTAINS, IT'S THE SONIC WAVE OF MANA WHICH THE SWING GENERATES THAT TEARS THE WORLD APART?
While I wouldn't consider myself outspoken on the issue of martial/caster disparity, I do consider it something that one should take into account and adjust your play style or game accordingly.
That said, I also am not a big fan of the Book of Nine Swords nor am I someone who enjoys manga or anime in general. So I am not sure where I fall in this conjecture.
That said, perhaps the whole anime bug bit the generation that came after mine? When I was younger, you had to be a hardcore enthusiast to track down the material -- it wasn't front and center in the game stores that were struggling to stay alive in the area (Greater Houston area in the late 70s-mid 80s). The few instances of the genre that showed up were received OK from what I recall, but most of the gamers I met and spoke with were more interested in the sword and sorcery movies of the time (Hawk the Slayer, Krull, Dragonslayer, Conan, Excalibur, etc).
Once I went back to college in the late 90s-00s anime was everywhere. People would talk about it excitedly and at least 10 people tried to drag me off to watch whatever they'd found.
Flash forward to 2016 and you can find material in even most chain book stores, video places and even the public library.
This is my long-winded way of saying that the expectations have changed over the years because the mediums we are exposed to have changed, grown, and expanded. Much like watching an older movie with less than stellar special effects and sound compared to something produced recently, audiences today may be disappointed with the older product -- not because it sucks, but because the expectations for the product have changed so much.
Edit to add: The "style" that people are talking about -- basically an epic level -- has been around for as long as there have been stories, as many have addressed previously. I think that it has just been labeled as "anime", perhaps by people who dislike that genre and label things as such, or based on what they saw in a certain movie from the genre. Regardless, maybe we need a different term so we can stop trashing anime?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since we're going back to an old post, I want to point out that the current Pathfinder Fighter is not even on par with the Jon Snow clip put in there to show the paradigm the "non-anime watching" designers were working on.
You literally need Four Feats and a skill rank to pull off that maneuver he did to knock a guy off his horse and stab him while he's down.
And you're not allowed to do it with a sword.
That is where most of the ire comes from, methinks.
That leaves me wondering why you opened with "Anime is sort of a weird category". If it's just like the American TV category, then what's weird about it?Also Anime is just sort of a weird category. Pretty much all the anime I watch is chosen because of topic. Blindly going into anime seems really weird. I loved Attack on Titan and Cowboy Bebop, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in some high school drama just because it also is anime."Also American TV is just sort of a weird category. Pretty much all the American TV I watch is chosen because of topic. Blindly going into American TV seems really weird. I loved Arrow and Grimm, but that doesn't mean I have any interest in some crime-scene police drama just because it also is American TV."
This community can be really fascinating to observe sometimes. ;)
Exactly my point. I watch anime that falls into the horror/fantasy/science fiction genre. Just like I watch regular TV and movies that fall into those categories.
This is why I don't get why someone would form an opinion on anime based on a random sample.
e.g. I agree with you that anime is a style/medium, not a genre in an of itself.
Err...It's a "weird category" because many people view it as a genre? and not as a style? What you and I may think doesn't change the fact that many people do not view it at all the same way.
No core group ever goes "YOU SHOULD REALLY TRY AMERICAN TV ITS AWESOME" in the same way as some anime fans do. Nor do (most) people dismiss all of TV as "boring police procedurals" or what have you, the way anime gets dismissed and lumped with DragonballZ/pokemon/hentai/whatever. Which makes anime a fairly unique category of entertainment, at least as far as film goes.
I think your over-analyzing my replies and looking for disagreement where there is none.
There is probably a nearly infinite supply of media (books, comics, TV shows, movies) for any given genre, and as someone in there mid 30's I simply don't have time to consume everything. So I can't really blame people for not branching out into other genres/mediums. I know I very rarely actively search out anime I might like, and instead just watch a few things I either saw parts of by accident (Adult Swim back in the day), or stuff I see enough references to peak my interests.
Pushing anything on someone and insisting "YOU NEED TO WATCH X EXAMPLES BEFORE YOU CAN JUDGE SOMETHING" not only rarely works, but usually backfires. Either they give in reluctantly and have expectations that can't be reached for the item. Or the pressure makes them openly hostile to the medium without watching. I know back in the day, when Harry Potter was still a huge deal and the books weren't finished, that I had multiple friends pressuring me to read them, and that pressure actively turned me off the books.
If someone watches a couple of episodes and is turned off by something, that is their right. As long as they don't insist that their opinions hold some universal truth for everyone I don't see an issue.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
As long as they don't insist that their opinions hold some universal truth for everyone I don't see an issue.That's where a good deal of this community falls short, I'm afraid. :/
Indeed, although I think everyone probably has some subject/series they feel similarly about.
Everything can be boiled down to just simply a genre. It is the fanatics that care to discover in detail the nuances and subgenres.
So, "Hollywood movies" can "be boiled down to just simply a genre", and the difference between Psycho and American Pie is just "nuances and subgenres" that only "the fanatics" are interested "to discover in detail"?
Seems odd to me, but as long as you're applying that framework evenly across the board, I see no harm.
Allow me to point at something I said, here:
I don't think I've ever actually watched a French film (animated or otherwise), had French cuisine, or enjoyed "French" aesthetic as a primary thing in works I've consumed pretty much ever in my entire life (I've never been a fan of mustaches for one*, and for better or worse, mustaches seem to be firmly in place as an icon of "French" imagery for some reason). Just something about the whole cultural whatever - and I've tried pretty much all the genres. It's not to say that I hate French people, cinema, food, and aesthetic. I find the food pleasant, the people fine**, and the cinema... never really worth the time. And it's usually never really been for any single easily identifiable reason - I've never been able to point and say, "Aha! This is French, therefore I hate it!" (unless it's going overboard to the point of being cliche on purpose), but rather it just tends to be some weird combination of pacing, dialogue, stylistic preferences, direction, characterization, and so on that always leaves me very unhappy with having spent my time watching the thing, often only later finding out that, again, it was a French film.
France is cool. It has awesome history. It also gave us Les Miserables, so, you know, I'm good with stuff that's produced there sometimes! But in modern times for whatever reason it seems that my sensibilities just doesn't mesh well with French sensibilities. I find this to be okay. Similarly, people from France (or wherever) not looking stuff from the USA (or wherever).
Now if only my martial could have a bad mustache and smoke too much while spouting rhetorical exposition that doesn't matter about the meaninglessness of it all and how we're all going to die and it's all hopeless so I might as well enjoy some bread that's kind of okay, if a bit hard and dry for my tastes.
/very naughty and inaccurate French stereotypes (and also, my apologies; I know you guys are all supposed to have the best food/culture/whatever - just not my cuppa; you guys are cool, though!)
* ...
This is not a refutation of Jiggy's point, but a clarification of why, even though Jiggy is right, many people can still interface with anime as if it were a genre.
Japan has a massive group of cultures - it is not a monolith, and it is not a singular flavor or individual thing from whence all things that come forth are identical or even similar. Nonetheless, coming from a singular over-culture - in the same way there is a singular American over-culture, in that the preponderance of Americans tend to believe in Life, Liberty, and all that jazz; we speak American English; and we highly value the individual and underdog - there are recurring motifs and elements that often work their way, thematically, into American works, even subconsciously. These are fundamentally American.
These are not 'Murican - they're not bad, negative, foolish, ugly, or any such things. They're not unpleasant.
Some people might not like them. That's fine - it's their right, and, in fact, I'd expect people out their not to, else something odd would likely be happening. But these subtle elements and cultural cues wriggle their way into our works and reflect our cultural values all the time. Hence (in addition to various laws and such), American film and television is different from, say, British; and British from French; and French from Spanish; and Spanish from Eastern European; and Eastern European from Middle Eastern; and Middle Eastern from Indian; and Indian from Chinese; and Chinese from Korean; and Korean from Japanese. All of these places are different from each other for cultural reasons, even though there are overlaps from places where they touch each other there are, at times, extremely sharp divides and sudden shifts in tone and essence, and culture, and language, and so on. What's more, there are massive divisions within these cultures. We'd hardly call cowboy cinema anything at all like science fiction; spy cinema like children's films; or murder mysteries like ensemble comedies (or "board game movies" which I am deeply confused and conflicted about whether or not to consider a "genre")... nonetheless, we ended up with Firefly, Spy Kids, and Clue ().
()
The thing is, American cinema is American. I imagine someone else can make an American-seeming movie. Probably very well, by now. Our stuff is so ubiquitous, it's probably hard not to make something "slightly American," if for no other reason than due to extreme exposure.
But each culture has its own trends and own tendencies - its own intricacies, subtleties and elements. This isn't tied to some genetic trait or element. It's not bound to the nature of the person or the culture - it's where that person is and lives and grew up, and the zeitgeist they developed within and around.
Cowboy Bebop is one of the most distinctly "American" anime I've ever seen. It's totally made in Japan. I love that thing. It's awesome. Beautiful in so many ways.
There is nothing wrong with any of this. Not inherently. If you start hating people because you don't particularly enjoy every little thing they produce, then there's something wrong with you, yes, and you need to reevaluate your life.
Anime, whether or not it is restricted strictly to Japanese-made work (I'm on the fence, as I can be swayed either way - I understand both camps, and have no strong feelings one way or the other) is definitely not a genre; but especially if it is restricted to strictly Japanese-made work, there are going to be a lot more generalities being made, and a lot more subtly nuanced and hard-to-name or hard-to-explain "feelings" people have about it that just seem "off" to people - and that's because it's made by a culture different and alien to their own, and they aren't able to adjust to it in certain regards and certain works. There is nothing wrong or racist* (or otherwise negative) about that - not inherently.
*
There may be, however, in the way people engage with that vagueness of discomfort they have when trying to engage with other peoples' works. Of course, then again, there are a lllllllllloooooooooooot of works out there that really do just, generally, suck. And picking between, "I don't like this because I don't like this." and "I don't like this because it's bad." is pretty difficult for us people. So... I dunno, enjoy what you guys like.
Just... don't drag me to more French cinema, guys. I've tried. I really have. I'll eat at the restaurant, if you're paying. Just... no more cinema. No offense, France: glad you're here. Glad other people like your stuff. Just... I'm not really in the mood for more of your films. Literally, it's not you, it's me - and I mean that in all sincerity. ;)
(But maybe their cheeses are good? I guess I haven't really explored the wide world of French cheese?)
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Heh. You americans are cursed with a variety of FDA regulations that forbid various uses of bacteria and molds in food production that lets people in other parts of the world create spectacular cheeses. If you haven't tried french cheeses, you are severely missing out. Sweden has similar problems with meat, giving us generally flat tastes.
As for french movies, start by seeing A Long Engagement.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So Jiggy, a question that may seem like a tangent but really isn't - would you allow someone to say they don't like japanese FOOD without calling them a a bigot or stupid?
Have they tried any actual Japanese food? Or did they look at it and go "That looks foreign, get it away from me!"?
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So Jiggy, a question that may seem like a tangent but really isn't - would you allow someone to say they don't like japanese FOOD without calling them a a bigot or stupid?
Before we get to that question, it appears that a couple of facts need to get straightened out.
First, I haven't, won't, and don't call people bigots or stupid (or anything else). I've criticized certain actions and beliefs and thought patterns, but I am fundamentally against the practice of jumping from a critique of a specific action/idea to the labeling of an entire person. If you know of a place where I slipped up and actually did label a person rather than an action/idea/practice, feel free to link/quote the post in question and I will publicly apologize to the victim. But if instead it's just a matter of you (or other listeners) not differentiating between criticizing an idea and criticizing a person, then that's on you/them, not on me.
Second (since you obviously intend to draw a parallel with your question), I also have not at any point criticized the dismissal of anime. What I have criticized is certain means of arriving at that dismissal. In fact, I have even specifically mentioned the example (more than once, IIRC) of someone dismissing anime because they don't like the art style (which, before you get down to nuances and outliers, is fairly consistent across the medium), and that being totally okay.
So please, if you're going to challenge me, at least demonstrate the maturity of challenging me accurately.
Now, as to your question:
It's totally fine with me if somebody doesn't like Japanese food. It's less fine if they say they don't like "Japanese food" but the one and only thing they actually don't like is sushi. Even worse if, when it's pointed out that (amazingly enough) that nation produces more types of food than just a particular seafood dish, they defend their generalization by proclaiming that it's all going to taste similar because culture. That's a very special level of willful ignorance.
But if they have a general list of dishes/ingredients they legitimately don't like (as many people do), and portions of that list happen to knock out the bulk of Japanese food (unlikely, but possible), then sure, nothing wrong with the shorthand of "don't like Japanese food".
|
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
So here's an interesting thing:
I just recently discovered that I have a "gift pass" available on my crunchyroll.com account, such that I could give someone a free two days of Premium membership (no credit card required, it tells me), so they could try out some anime streaming commercial-free.
If anybody has grown curious now that they realize Japan's animation industry produces more than just unrealistic martial combat, feel free to shoot me a PM and tell me what kinds of genres/shows you like, and I'll come up with one or more recommendations and (if I still have it by then) send you the "gift pass".
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
My only issue with anime is that I now have a 2 month old and all the stuff I want to watch is only subbed making it hard to watch depending on his mood and how much I can actually watch the TV. He does however love the opening and closing to JoJo's Bizarre Adventure Phantom Blood
Don't forget Mario Cart and Smash Bros.
I have forgotten all of my consoles...