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I have a player who just hit 5th-level as an arcanist and picked up Craft Wondrous Item as his feat. He wants to craft a magic item for the monk in the party of his own design, and it's essentially a glove as that produces the shield spell the moment you put it on and never stops. He reasons it should only cost him 1,000 gp to make, as the rules for magic item creation say that to create a continuous/use activated item, it's spell level x caster level x 2,000, and so crafting it would be half that.
There's gotta be some rule against this, or he's misinterpreting something, right? The closest thing I could find to such an item was a ring of force shield, but even that costs 4 times as much as what he wants to make, gives a lesser shield bonus, takes up a hand, and uses free actions to activate on and off.
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I have a player who just hit 5th-level as an arcanist and picked up Craft Wondrous Item as his feat. He wants to craft a magic item for the monk in the party of his own design, and it's essentially a glove as that produces the shield spell the moment you put it on and never stops. He reasons it should only cost him 1,000 gp to make, as the rules for magic item creation say that to create a continuous/use activated item, it's spell level x caster level x 2,000, and so crafting it would be half that.
There's gotta be some rule against this, or he's misinterpreting something, right? The closest thing I could find to such an item was a ring of force shield, but even that costs 4 times as much as what he wants to make, gives a lesser shield bonus, takes up a hand, and uses free actions to activate on and off.
Ultimate campaign addresses this. If it makes another item completely useless, that's a no-no. Paizo's example is a continuous true strike. Technically, that would be 1000 gp, but a +20 weapon compared to +5 for 50000 gp is just broken, so a fairer price would be 200000 gp. Up the cost to be higher than the other item. Check out ultimate campaign under campaign systems too.
Edit: Ninja'd
Edit: Did I just ninja someone while being ninja'd?
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"The correct way to price an item is by comparing its abilities to similar items (see Magic Item Gold Piece Values), and only if there are no similar items should you use the pricing formulas to determine an approximate price for the item."
1000 is way too little.
A bare minimum price would be 16000, which is the price of the items currently available which grant a +4 bonus to AC.
This is actually a specific example which is given:
"Example: Patrick's wizard wants to create bracers with a continuous mage armor ability, granting the wearer a +4 armor bonus to AC. The formula indicates this would cost 2,000 gp (spell level 1, caster level 1). Jessica reminds him that bracers of armor +4 are priced at 16,000 gp and Patrick's bracers should have that price as well. Patrick agrees, and because he only has 2,000 gp to spend, he decides to spend 1,000 gp of that to craft bracers of armor +1 using the standard bracer prices."
There are 2 rules your player is overlooking, first you only use the table second, after you have first compared cost on comparable items. The second rule he is neglecting is that all custom items are subject to GM approval.
Simply tell them you're not allowing the creation of custom magic items.
The rules do say to look up other similar items (based on their benefit) to determine the cost. So shield provides a +4 shield bonus to AC.
A ring of force shield provides a +2 shield bonus to AC and costs 8500 gp (4250 to craft). If we extrapolate from this based on the normal methods for determining cost:
2^2*x=8500, then X is 2125.
So to determine the cost of this item it would be reasonable as:
4^2*2125= 34,000 gp.
Bracers of armor is another decent guideline to look at, though bracers of armor provide an armor bonus to AC instead of shield bonus to AC. Bracers of armor +4 are 25,000 gp. But since most classes are more likely to wear some sort of armor, it is reasonable that armor bonuses to AC should be cheaper than shield bonuses to AC.
Magic Item Gold Piece Values
Many factors must be considered when determining the price of new magic items. The easiest way to come up with a price is to compare the new item to an item that is already priced, using that price as a guide. Otherwise, use the guidelines summarized on Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.
Since you're player is proposing what is basically a ring of force but twice as strong I would highly suggest you use the 34,000 gp value I calculated.
They also specify that items that give "other AC bonus" at "Bonus squared x 2,500 gp".
The guidelines for custom items are guidelines. GM's should compare it to items that give similar effect. The closest item to use as a guideline is a Ring of Force Shield. This uses "Bonus squared x 2,000" as the formula, so I'd go with that pricing.
Don't let them argue for an item much better than the existing items. continuous or unlimited use of most combat spells is going to be broken.
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Alright, thanks for everyone's input on this. In this case, I'd rule that the item he's trying to create would cost 20,500 gp.
Here's my reasoning:
16,000 gp to replicate what bracers of armor +4 do, just as a shield bonus instead of an armor bonus, which I feel is comparable.
3,000 gp to replicate a non-expendable version of brooch of shielding, since that item normally costs 1,500 gp, but because this would be a version that doesn't melt away after taking so much damage, I used the part of the item crafting guidelines that say "charged" items are 1/2 what their unlimited-versions cost, so just multiply it by two.
Then, take that 3,000 gp part of the item and multiply it by 1.5, as the rule guidelines say if you have an item that does multiple things, take the cheaper part and multiply it by 1.5. This gets 4,500 gp.
Add the two together and you have 20,500 gp. I haven't compared this to other similarly priced items, however.
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Strife, that's a little complicated.
Compare it to the rule that literally says armor bonus other than natural armor or AC is bonus squared * 2500. By the table reading it should be 40,000.
I back calculated the ring of Force Shield which is half the bonus (+2 instead of +4) and came up with a multiplier of 2125 which is fairly in line with the bonus squared * 2000gp (for natural armor or deflection bonus to AC) vs the bonus squared * 2500gp (for other AC bonuses).
It's true that unfortunately when looking at custom magic items there isn't necessarily a "correct" answer. The best you can do is look at similar magic items and try to price accordingly based on them.
Regardless, I think everyone here can agree that there's no way in hell the item should be priced at only 2000gp (1000gp to craft).
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Actually, I take back what I said about shield bonuses being comparable to armor bonuses. After thinking about it, I think a shield bonus in this case is technically better since:
1) Shield bonuses are harder to come by since not everyone has proficiency with shields, and more still those that do often times don't take advantage of it.
2) It's a shield bonus that doesn't take up a hand.
3) It doesn't have to worry about not stacking with any worn armor.
Not sure how I would adjust pricing in light of this, however.
Bracers of armor +x offer AC for x^2 * 1,000.
Deflection +x (a type barely bypassed) comes for x^2 * 2,000.
Unusual +x (so likely stacking with everything) costs x^2 * 2,500.
Shield AC is pretty much like armor AC, when it becomes to bypassing it - usually by touch attack. But it's easier to raise armor AC than shield AC, so the latter one should be more expensive. Still less expensive than the more powerful deflection AC. Makes x^2 * 1,500 from my gut feeling - 24k if the players wants +4.
Ignoring magic missiles comes on top of that.
To be honest: If the GM is cautious and used to number crunching, a cheesing player is better off with building existing underpriced items...
i'm with SheepishEidolon. the bonus squared times 1500 seems reasonable for a shield bonus (possibly more considering it won't take up a hand in addition to stacking with other common armor bonuses). so i'd go with something like 28.5k with the brooch effect. possibly even round up to 30k.
Say no, not because you can't make a balanced item, but because you are trying to free up a ring slot item with a wondrous item.
Make him take forge ring and pay the exponential difference.
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Say no, not because you can't make a balanced item, but because you are trying to free up a ring slot item with a wondrous item.
This ii undoubtedly what the player is attempting to do. Free up a ring slot for even more cheese. I would say no to avoid whatever op item combo they think they're going to get.
or you know... let your players have awesome characters and throw awesome villains at them to compensate...
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or you know... let your players have awesome characters and throw awesome villains at them to compensate...+4 AC is "awesome"? Since the counter is +4 to attack, +4 to attack is "awesome"? I love math way more than the next person, and even I don't think that "slightly higher numbers" is awesome.
Unless you mean "slightly higher numbers than the rest of your team", which I can't describe my opinion of without violating the rules of the forum.
+4 is significant.
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or you know... let your players have awesome characters and throw awesome villains at them to compensate...+4 AC is "awesome"? Since the counter is +4 to attack, +4 to attack is "awesome"? I love math way more than the next person, and even I don't think that "slightly higher numbers" is awesome.
Unless you mean "slightly higher numbers than the rest of your team", which I can't describe my opinion of without violating the rules of the forum.
and i can't describe my opinion of your comment without doing the same. let it suffice to say that that wasn't what i was getting at, and you seem like you're being deliberately obtuse.
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Make sure you use something aged, probably cheddar, definitely not any softer cheeses like brie, unless you have a death wish or something.
or you know... let your players have awesome characters and throw awesome villains at them to compensate...Yeah, just rework every single opposing NPC to be able to stand up against an army of custom items. NBD.
nailed it.
Well it's Rise of the Runelords anyway, so I'm not about to revamp every single fight.
fair enough.
Read the "Altering Existing Magic Items" section carefully - it addresses a lot of the issues here.
Also, on pricing:
If you discover a loophole that allows an item to have an ability for a much lower price than is given for a comparable item, the GM should require using the price of the item, as that is the standard cost for such an effect. Most of these loopholes stem from trying to get unlimited uses per day of a spell effect from the "command word" or "use-activated or continuous" lines of Table: Estimating Magic Item Gold Piece Values.The book is very clear on this. XD Your player is trying for a loophole, and you should not allow it.
not allow the item or the price the player suggested? because i think the item is fine as long as an appropriate price is paid.
I agree with all the posters suggesting to compare vs similar items before going to the guidlines.
If you are going to follow the guidlelines to get your price...
...Compare it to the rule that literally says armor bonus other than natural armor or AC is bonus squared * 2500. By the table reading it should be 40,000.
I agree wih this ^. (40,000 gp price / 20,000 gp cost)
AC bonus (other) = bonus squared X 2,500 = 4 X 4 X 2,500 = 40,000.
Since you mentioned gloves (slotted), that's it. If the item were slotless, then multiply by 2 again (80,000 gp).
An aside (and perhaps overthinking it):
There's also the concept of slot affinity to consider. The idea is that certain types of bonuses and powers belong in certain slots. Some examples are the feet slot for movement, belt slot for physical stats, and eye slot for senses.
There's nothing set in stone, but it does affect balance and should at least be considered. It's why you don't typically see things like eye-slot items that boost your speed, and other similar mismatches. If you can get gloves that boost your AC, then that frees up the slots that typically boost AC for other purposes.
In a sense, part of the cost of an item is the precious, limited, popular slot that it takes up.
@Matt2VK — you're right... Add a little for magic missle immunity.
While you are all figuring out your pricing for the +Shield AC bonus, you've forgotten to include the price for being immune to Magic Missiles.
not all of us. but the addition of a brooch of shielding effect is pretty easy to figure out a price for, and, compared to the armor, that price (~4500 gp) is negligible.
...Have never messed with magic creation effects as it's always been seen as *Cheese*.
yeah, i hate this sentiment. SOMEONE has to create magic items, and it's only seems cheesy for a player to want to do it if you have Magic Wal-Marts where anyone can buy any magic item at any time. if finding a particular magic item isn't so simple, crafting becomes a reasonable use of your resources.
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I have a player who just hit 5th-level as an arcanist and picked up Craft Wondrous Item as his feat. He wants to craft a magic item for the monk in the party of his own design, and it's essentially a glove as that produces the shield spell the moment you put it on and never stops. He reasons it should only cost him 1,000 gp to make, as the rules for magic item creation say that to create a continuous/use activated item, it's spell level x caster level x 2,000, and so crafting it would be half that.
There's gotta be some rule against this, or he's misinterpreting something, right? The closest thing I could find to such an item was a ring of force shield, but even that costs 4 times as much as what he wants to make, gives a lesser shield bonus, takes up a hand, and uses free actions to activate on and off.
Yes there is a rule. It's called that YOU are the GM. The magic item creation rules come with a heavy caveat that the formula is not to be followed blindly as it can be manipulated to create unbalanced items that are not priced appropriately, even if they are "correct". Your player like many looking to min-max these rules is conveniently ignoring the advisory text while trying to club your head with RAW quotes.
You should be applying these steps.
1. Do you want to allow this item in your campaign AT ALL? If the answer is no, the process stops here, and he's done. Stick to your guns if this is the case.
2. If you decide to allow the item, find standard items that are close to it in power and effect and comapre them. Decide if it should be more or less costly or require more or less spells. Be firm about any decisions you make here as well.
3. Remember also that the rules are your tools, not the other way around.
i mean you're certainly not the only person who would use that term to describe it. i just think that sentiment comes from the idea that all the prefab items are readily available so some people wonder why would you want to create something different or think you are only trying to make it yourself to save money (which is a reasonable thing to do). and we've pretty much exhausted the actual thread topic at this point, but you're right. if we really want to have this discussion, it belongs somewhere else.
Usually, sooner or later, someone sits at the table and then demands "Why can't I build that?"
When someone starts making demands of me as a GM, that's when I show them the door. Now if they ASK, I'll counter with this question. "Why do you think you can?"
The Rules have never been structed in the form of what you can't do. But what players CAN. That's a major difference.
Usually, sooner or later, someone sits at the table and then demands "Why can't I build that?"
When someone starts making demands of me as a GM, that's when I show them the door. Now if they ASK, I'll counter with this question. "Why do you think you can?"
The Rules have never been structed in the form of what you can't do. But what players CAN. That's a major difference.
i'm pretty sure there are parts of the rules that talk about what you can't do, but even if there aren't the ruleset isn't comprehensive and doesn't claim to be.
The slot thing is where I would look the hardest on this. In my own games where I allow item crafting, I heavily restrict abilities to the slots they normally appear in or would make sense to appear in (charging a premium for moving things off their "regular" slot). So in my game, I would allow moving a shield bonus to AC to the hand slot, since you normally use hands to hold onto real shields (which give shield bonuses to AC), so that slot at least still makes some amount of sense. I'd likely add an extra 20% to the total cost to account for that shift, however.
I'd likely add an extra 20% to the total cost to account for that shift, however.
i'm genuinely curious and not just trying to be argumentative, but how do you not see this as a badwrongfun tax? if you agree that the slot is thematically appropriate and they're not actually gaining more slots or somehow stacking bonuses that they couldn't normally stack in this way (like if they were making a bunch of dodge bonus magic items) why would you charge them extra?
I'd likely add an extra 20% to the total cost to account for that shift, however.i'm genuinely curious and not just trying to be argumentative, but how do you not see this as a badwrongfun tax? if you agree that the slot is thematically appropriate and they're not actually gaining more slots or somehow stacking bonuses that they couldn't normally stack in this way (like if they were making a bunch of dodge bonus magic items) why would you charge them extra?
It's a fine line, to be sure. It boils down more to my GM style than how my players do/do not optimize their characters. I typically give players a fair amount of downtime so that crafting things is actually feasible, as is making some extra money on the side, among other things. So far none have complained about the extra cost, and we frequently discuss rules and other matters so that everyone is on the same page and in agreement on stuff; there have been a number of instances where my players have brought forth compelling arguments and have caused me to introduce houserules or change existing ones. Could it be a badwrongfun tax? Quite probably with the right group of players, but it so far hasn't been an issue for me. Your mileage, of course, may vary.
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I have a player who just hit 5th-level as an arcanist and picked up Craft Wondrous Item as his feat. He wants to craft a magic item for the monk in the party of his own design, and it's essentially a glove as that produces the shield spell the moment you put it on and never stops. He reasons it should only cost him 1,000 gp to make, as the rules for magic item creation say that to create a continuous/use activated item, it's spell level x caster level x 2,000, and so crafting it would be half that.
There's gotta be some rule against this, or he's misinterpreting something, right? The closest thing I could find to such an item was a ring of force shield, but even that costs 4 times as much as what he wants to make, gives a lesser shield bonus, takes up a hand, and uses free actions to activate on and off.
Ultimate campaign addresses this. If it makes another item completely useless, that's a no-no. Paizo's example is a continuous true strike. Technically, that would be 1000 gp, but a +20 weapon compared to +5 for 50000 gp is just broken, so a fairer price would be 200000 gp. Up the cost to be higher than the other item. Check out ultimate campaign under campaign systems too.
Edit: Ninja'd
Edit: Did I just ninja someone while being ninja'd?
The persons responsible for ninjaing you have been themselves, ninjaed.
Make it activated rather than continuous. Standard action activation seems far more balanced. Heck, you can make the hand the glove is on occupied as long as the shield is up (like ward spells in Skyrim). Monk still gets a useful item, but the handicaps are something to seriously consider.
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Personal way I would do this (I've been making a magic item a day since February, so thought this would be more fun than normal).
Gloves of Shielding
Aura faint abjuration; CL 3rd
Slot hands; Price 8,000 gp (+1), 14,000 gp (+2), 24,000 gp (+3), 38,000 gp (+4), 56,000 gp (+5); Weight —
Description
This pair of silk gloves are embroidered with glyphs of protection. So long as the wearer has one hand free and is not flat-footed, these gloves grant the wearer a +1-+5 shield bonus to Armor Class, and block magic missile as the shield spell. As this is a force effect, this armor bonus applies against incorporeal creatures. If the wielder loses her Dexterity bonus to AC, she does not gain this ability.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, shield; Cost 4,000 gp (+1), 7,000 gp (+2), 12,000 gp (+3), 19,000 gp (+4), 28,000 gp (+5)
Now, as to the reasoning.
Brooch of Shielding is CL 1, and blocks 101 damage. This means it blocks about 29 magic missiles (individuals), so give or take, given the CL, it's about half-charged for the charged item use. So we increase it to 3,000 gp for 'full charge' and then double it to get the cost for unlimited, which makes that 6,000 gp for that section. I don't see the point to increasing it further for 'out of slot', due to making it go away when flat-footed, and being part of the shield spell.
For the AC effect, I looked at the ring of force shield, like you did. It grants a +2 bonus to AC like a heavy shield with none of the penalties, and is a force effect, so that makes it a good baseline. Costs 8,500 gp, so I'll just axe the 500, which gives us 8,000 gp, the same as a +2 weapon. Considering that, and that I'm requiring an open hand for this (thematics being the character reaching out to block attacks coming their way and 'deflecting' them), I just use the formula for magic weapons. 2k, 8k, 18k, 32k, and 50k. Then I add 6k to each for the magic missile immunity.
But, that's just how I would do it.