Alongside the fighter, the tired old cleric is most in need of a freshen up. One of the original 3; he is showing his age.
Similar to the fighter Paizo has gone down the road of applying plasters as opposed to a proper 'Unchaining'..... some people like this but a lot dont.
There is a lot of talk about the need for a Holy Warrior as opposed to a Paladin, how Warpriests have made martial clerics redundant and how there is a real longstanding need for a new divine class... the D6 'Priest' full caster.
Am hoping to get some ideas going (I have a few already) for solving the above issues... should be fun! x
Within the existing system, turning the cleric into a half bab full caster seems the best bet, although even then they'd have to compete with druids. Differing spell lists accomplishes this. D6, half bab, more features to accompany & empower channel energy, perhaps incuding things to sacrifice channel uses for extra domain spell casts. Let warpriests & druids be the pseudo martials, and give druids true divine power....which they already sort of have. I worry that you can't really gove them anything without further empowering an empowered class. Maybe make them spontaneous instead of prepared? Hunter is the only spontaneous divine right now isn't it?
I have more radical ideas but don't want to hijack your thread as they don't make sense isolated.
The most glaring flaws, that don't break the game if you fix them, is that all the even levels (except 8) are dead levels, and that the Cleric has 1 skill point per level. So, cleric Talents, mostly focused around skill use. Like:"pick a class skill. You count as having ½ your cleric level ranks in it".
Also, something based on domains that your deity offers but didn't take, and the ability to use the flavorful community service spells that no-one actually memorizes.
Hunter is the only spontaneous divine right now isn't it?
Oracles, Inquisitors, and Archetyped Occultists.
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The most glaring flaws, that don't break the game if you fix them, is that all the even levels (except 8) are dead levels, and that the Cleric has 1 skill point per level.
Spellcasters never have dead levels. Spellcasting is a primary class feature for a 9-level spellcaster.
I completely disagree with your reasons here. Warpriest hasn't made the martial cleric obsolete. Clerics have 9-level spellcasting and way better healing options, so it's still a go-to class if you want to be a fighter with a lot of healing and spellcasting utility.
The problem with unchaining the cleric is that they don't have a lot of wiggle room in their power budget. Clerics are one of the more powerful classes in the game, but if you take away anything significant, then they stop being a cleric. Being the "battle priest" type with channel energy and 9-level spellcasting is iconic with the cleric. If you make them a 6-level spellcaster or a 1/2 BAB class, then the class is no longer a cleric.
A better approach is either:
A) Create a new class that fills the "white mage" niche that people want.
B) Rework variant channeling. There's a lot of cleric players that love the class but don't have much interest in channeling energy. The variant channeling rules feel meh because they still keep the healing, so there's room to improve them.
Personally I think the Oracle could get a lot of mileage out of becoming a d6 HD, 1/2 BAB full caster "white mage" type. Even the name of the class says more "frail diviner" than "battle priest" to me.
What I'd really like to see for Cleric is a rebuild as 2 classes:
1. Cleric rebuilt on a chassis made as a remix of Warpriest and Inquisitor: 3/4 BAB, d8, 6/9 spellcasting, and class features every level.
2. Priest similar to Adamant Entertainment's Priest, hybridized with Oracle, ending up with 1/2 BAB, d6, 9/9 spellcasting, possibly hybrid prepared/spontaneous like an Arcanist, and class features sprinkled in every handful of levels by way of Domains and/or Inquisitions that have been rebuilt to work like miniature Oracle Mysteries. Channel Energy and spontaneous casting of Cure/Inflict become reworked features of particular Domains instead of being core class features. Things like Alignment Channel and Elemental Channel also get made into Domain Powers of particular Domains.
3. Inquisitor and Warpriest become prestige classes that build off #1 above (and likewise, Paladin is replaced by a set of prestige classes modeled after a remix of Hellknight and D&D 3.5 Unearthed Arcana/Kirthfinder's Prestige Paladin that build off martial types and not necessarily either of the above). After all, what religion that isn't foolhardy is going to let some random worshipper off the street become an above-the-law behind-the-scenes enforcer or holy warrior without proving their capabilities and loyalty first?
Of course, this goes beyond Unchained 2 territory and into Pathfinder 2.0 territory.
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My initial thoughts on the situation and how I would address it are as follows:
There are 2 related but different approaches. You always have to bear in mind that ‘Unchaining’ a class has so far not involved anything too dramatic.
1) Unchained Modular Approach and 2) Unchained + 2 new full classes (D10 and D6)
Modular Approach
The original cleric is ‘Unchained’ and as part of this 2 further options are offered. The full BAB 4-level, spontaneous divine warrior (Celestial Champion), and the ½ BAB 9-level, prepared caster (Pious Exemplar). These 2 further options could be almost viewed as Alternate Classes of the cleric, being more than archetypes but not quite wholly new classes. The 6th level casting options (Warpriest and Inquisitor) stay as they are largely well balanced and designed and serve as the middle ground between casting and martial.
The ‘Unchained’ cleric has been modified to make it slightly less martial and more caster. As a D8 class there has to be some martial ability:
- Light armour only and no shield
- Choice between spontaneous heal/harm and the ability to cast one of the domain spell lists spontaneously. The single domain slot remains.
- Perception as a class skill
- No followers of a ‘philosophy’ possible
- Normal channeling with existing rules except that selective channel is a bonus feat at 4th level.
- Scribe scroll as bonus feat at 2nd and skill focus at 3rd, automatically qualifies for anything requiring deific obedience
- 2 good saves as normal
The full BAB 4-level caster (just initial thoughts could well be fleshed out a bit)
- Heavy armour and martial weapons
- Spontaneous WIS casting (a suitable table would have to be drawn up - better than the Bloodrager as will have fewer class skills)
- Both domains as usual but no domain spells
- No followers of a ‘philosophy’ possible
- Fighter class skills + perception
- Bonus feats at 4th, 8th, 12th, 16th
- 2 good saves
- 2 skill points/level
The D6 HD ½ BAB ‘full divine’ caster (just initial thoughts could well be fleshed out a bit)
- Still WIS based and prepared
- Poor weapon proficiency
- No physical armour possible (similar to Ecclesitheruge)
- No followers of a ‘philosophy’ possible
- 4 skill points/level
- Cleric class skills + perception
- No channeling
- No domain slots
- No spontaneous heal/harm
- Domain mastery: all of deities domain spells are considered ‘part of the class spell list’ for the purposes of scribing scrolls... etc
- 2 domains chosen but the spells can be prepared as normal and the Pious Exemplar can pick any 2 1st level powers and any 2 x 8th level powers from those available on domain list.
- 2 good saves
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Oracles, Inquisitors, and Archetyped Occultists.
That's embarrassing I missed inquisitors, considering I'm playing with one...
The full BAB 4-level caster (just initial thoughts could well be fleshed out a bit)
You mean the Paladin?
I don't think perception makes sense as a class skill, nor actually any skill based class features for the cleric. Give them 4 points per level like everyone should have base (except int based classes) and call it good. Clerics have divine magic to augment themselves, they hardly need to be skill focused & martial as well.
I wouldn't further split the cleric either. There's already such a huge bloat of classes. As far as I can see the Paladin doesn't even need to be its own class apart from the cleric. There hardly needs to be another paladin like class.
I also wouldn't in any iteration remove channel energy from the cleric. Outside of casting it's the main feature (well, the only feature currently), and I actually think it should have more emphasis than the cleric's general casting ability. Otherwise you end up with "I'm a wizard, but I have a different spell list that I know the entirety of" which is different because the spell effects are different, but to me doesn't sell it as a class. Beyond that I don't understand the combining of full casting with 3/4 bab in the core rules (druid & cleric). It feels off.
If you make them a 6-level spellcaster or a 1/2 BAB class, then the class is no longer a cleric.
I agree with the half BAB assertion as there are a lot of claims in the cleric's fluff about being a martial force of their divine's will (crusaders, demon hunters, etc), but is a cleric really no longer a cleric with only 2/3 casting? Yes there theme is divine power & influence, but couldn't that be just as well represented with a more potent and versatile channel energy (and perhaps another divine feature or two) rather than a bigger & better spell list?
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Keep in mind that the overall change to an unchained cleric should probably be a nerf.
{. . .}
There are 2 related but different approaches. You always have to bear in mind that ‘Unchaining’ a class has so far not involved anything too dramatic. {. . .}
Unchained Monk begs to differ . . . But probably doesn't have the Will to make it stick.
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Keep in mind that the overall change to an unchained cleric should probably be a nerf.Why?
The general community consensus is that the cleric is overpowered but a little boring to build and play. The reasons being:
1) Cleric has a lot going for them with very few weaknesses. They have 9-level spellcasting. They have the second best divine spell list in the game. They have an average BAB/HD. They get decent armor proficiencies and can get proficiency in any weapon they want as long as they worship a god that has it as a favored weapon. As much as people complain about channel energy feeling underwhelming, it's one of the few AoE abilities in the game and has excellent feat support. You can easily make a battle cleric that's competitive with martials up until the point where 9-level spellcasters dominate the game where your spellcasting is king and being a good fighter is icing on the cake. The fact that clerics automatically know all spells on their spell list is also a big deal. The only weakness a cleric has is that they're kinda MAD and have few skill points, which is standard for 9-level spellcasters anyway. Really compare them to other 3/4 BAB classes (excluding druid) and how much they gain compared to martials, it's easy to see how good they are.
2) Despite all the power, most clerics come out feeling very samey. Aside from favored weapon and domains, they don't get many options to help differentiate them. And even then, domains aren't very powerful - their main use is getting a few extra spells to your spell list.
As a result of the above two points, an overhauled cleric should present more build versatility but be a nerf overall.
The general community consensus is that the cleric is overpowered but a little boring to build and play.
Disagree on the first point... where is the evidence for this? FYI... general community consensus ≠ your opinion !
Agree on the second point...... plenty of evidence/opinion of this!
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The general community consensus is that the cleric is overpowered but a little boring to build and play.Disagree on the first point... where is the evidence for this? FYI... general community consensus ≠ your opinion !
Agree on the second point...... plenty of evidence/opinion of this!
Do searches on the forums? There's countless threads discussing the power level of the cleric. Reworking the cleric is not a new topic.
My evidence is in the above post. Their feature scope is too high.
They're the second most powerful class in the core rulebook. And even with the abundance of new classes and rules, they're still one of the most powerful classes in the game.
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Indeed. Kobold Cleaver just recently started a thread where he asked why the cleric is considered Tier 1. Multiple comments in that thread explain why the cleric is a powerful class, including one of my own. And there have been other threads before his that discuss the cleric's power; it comes up quite a bit in the threads that discuss building a 'priest' type cleric, for example.
Well a few things:
1) I have seen many posts that question whether the cleric is still even Tier 1 or that state it is at best low Tier 1.
2) The fact that it has been overshadowed in recent times is ammo in itself for a remake.
3) Logically, if the cleric is due to be nerfed, then all other classes more powerful than it also deserve a nerf... can't have one without the other I'm afraid.
3) Since I am the OP on this thread and it is firmly pro 'Unchaining' please be respectful and not try to derail it. If you completely disagree with my perspectives then please start your own thread. Thread derailing is impolite and gets reported.
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If I were making a "Priest" type of divine spellcaster (non-warrior like), then I'd probably make the following adjustments:
1. Reduce HD down to d6/low BAB. Reduce weapon and armor proficiencies down to wizard level. Don't get a weapon proficiency from choice of deity. Fortitude save is low.
2. Add an ability that allows casting certain spells at range instead of touch (curative, restorative, raising -including breath of life- and some buffing spells -ability score boosters, magic weapon/armor, etc-).
3. Skills boosted to 4 + Int. Also, every domain has a skill-based bonus at 1st level (adding additional class skill, like handle animal for a nature/animal domain, or easing up restrictions or new uses of skills, etc). Add a 1 + half cleric level bonus to a domain skill (which gives a boost on opposite levels that you gain channel bonus).
4. Domains get more abilities than just the two given, maybe bumped up to 1st level (a domain ability + skill thing), and then every 4 levels (4th, 8th, 12th, 16th), with a "end cap" type of domain power at 20th. This means adding about 3 new abilities (can be "improved" versions of lower abilities, or granting a special feat/chain -thinking how Stunning Fist works for monks-, etc), plus one end cap, for each domain.
Lastly, move away from "self-combat buffing" powers, to "combat buff others" for those war-like domains. Keeps the theme, without requiring your character becoming a battle behemoth.
5. Remove the more "self-buffing" style of spells, the kind that make clerics good at fighting. Defensive "avoidance" magic (like wind wall or elemental protection) are still fine.
Add some more utility magic, some that you'd normally find on the wizard spell list; stuff like minor creation, or locate creature. Anytime you went to see if you could memorize a problem solver spell and went "hey, only arcane casters can have that spell? whaaat?".. yeah, add those kinds.
Domains add their spells directly to your list, and you can spontaneously cast your chosen cure/inflict, as well as your domain spell.
Remove the bonus spell slot for domains.
------------
This would give a divine caster who eschews combat ability for more problem solving and easier buffing/restoration.
I think adding more things dependant on domain choice also makes priests a little more diverse.. so a priest of Shelyn would be quite different to play than a priest of Asmodeus.
*Edit*
Haha.. I'd been writing this post up for a while (while helping my son with some Terraria bosses), didn't realize the hot topic was on "domains need to be more meaningful"... guess it was an obvious thing.
2) Unchained + 2 new full classes
This would be my preferred option - the modular approach may be quicker and simpler but it is also blander.... and the one thing the cleric doesn’t need any more of is BLANDNESS!!
The ‘Unchained’ cleric is the same as the modular approach
Regarding a new D10 ‘Celestial Champion’ class - I am aware that some people really don’t believe there is a gap for it but there are others that do believe there is a niche.
My opinion is that the Paladin is very LG orientated and not necessarily anything to do with individual deities..... he/she simply represents all that is divinely pure and decent. Also the fact that the Sentinel PrC exists indicates that there is a possible gap in the market! The Celestial Champion is possible but would have to be careful not to stray into the territory of either the Paladin or Warpriest. I would however understand if it was deemed not necessary. .... the class boundaries are slim!
I do believe very strongly though in the need for a pure D6 divine caster.
This was something that 3.5 got round to addressing in various ways, and I am genuinely surprised (and suspicious) that Paizo has never attempted it. It should be based on the cleric and not the oracle for several reasons:
a) It is the cleric that is need of an update! The oracle has plenty of good options and archetypes already.
b) Being that this class would involve an increase in class abilities and the fact that the oracle already has loads, it would represent a potentially messy, overcomplicated, OP design.
c) Most importantly, all of the historical references we have to the ‘robed Holy man’ type that we are discussing, involve someone that is completely dedicated to his faith and deity at the expense of everything else. He is focussed and singular of purpose! By definition, the oracle is the antithesis of the above!
The D6 HD ½ BAB ‘full divine’ caster
- WIS based for main casting stat but INT for bonus spells
- Poor weapon proficiency
- Uses a ‘prayer book’ that functions in a similar way to Wizard spellbook - thus Exemplar no longer knows every spell on the class list.
- No physical armour possible (similar to Ecclesitheruge)
- No followers of a ‘philosophy’ possible
- 2 skill points/level
- Cleric class skills + UMD
- No channelling
- No domain slots
- No spontaneous heal/harm
- No domain powers
- 1 good save
- Bonus feats: Scribe scroll at first, bonus feat at 4th and 8th
- Can pick 2 spells per spell level, given from the domains of his/her deity, and cast them as normal.
Now here comes the interesting stuff.... ;))
Divine Conduit
An Exemplar can channel the divine energy of their deity to perform miraculous acts. An Exemplar gains a pool of divine energy each day when he meditates for spells. This pool contains up to Wisdom modifier + ½ his Exemplar level in divine energy. An Exemplar may expend 1 use of divine energy as a swift action to gain a +1 sacred/profane bonus per 2 levels (minimum +1) to the next Saving Throw he makes before the end of his next turn. Alternatively, he may expend 1 divine energy as a swift action when casting a spell. If he does so, he can choose to increase the caster level or the spell’s DC by 1. He can only expend 1 point of divine energy on a spell this way. An Exemplar may only use domain spells or use their pool of divine energy when they are within 30 ft of their Annointed One (see below).
Annointed Ones
All Exemplars receive Anointed Ones that serve as emissaries of their deity. Their sworn duty is to assist the Exemplar, guide them in their mission and serve as a focus for Divine Conduit abilities. As the Exemplar grows in power so does the rank and powers of the Annointed One. Each Annointed One is a specific representation of one of a deity’s domains and uses the pool of divine energy to channel special domain powers.
Worshippers of good aligned deities receive the following as Annointed Ones according to their class level (would need fleshing out obviously):
Angel (2nd level)
Archangel (4th level)
Principality (6th level)
Power (8th level)
Virtue (10th level)
Dominion (12th level)
Throne (14th level)
Cherubim (16th level)
Seraphim (20th level)
Worshippers of evil aligned deities receive the following as Annointed Ones:
(insert suitable demonic/devil ranks)
Worshippers of neutral aligned deities can choose whether their Annointed Ones are good or evil aligned:
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Well a few things:
1) I have seen many posts that question whether the cleric is still even Tier 1 or that state it is at best low Tier 1.
2) The fact that it has been overshadowed in recent times is ammo in itself for a remake.
3) Logically, if the cleric is due to be nerfed, then all other classes more powerful than it also deserve a nerf... can't have one without the other I'm afraid.
3) Since I am the OP on this thread and it is firmly pro 'Unchaining' please be respectful and not try to derail it. If you completely disagree with my perspectives then please start your own thread. Thread derailing is impolite and gets reported.
1) The fact that many people consider the cleric as Tier 1 is evidence that the cleric is really powerful and -- at the very least -- shouldn't be buffed. Not that I'm particularly worried about that because your suggestions so far are pretty huge nerfs.
2) I never said remaking was a terrible idea. It's just that you don't have much room change it without making the result NOT be a cleric. And probably the better way to make an unchained cleric is create a new class, which is what you're basically doing except you're calling the new class "unchained cleric."
3.1) I don't see why nerfing the cleric and nerfing other classes is mutually inclusive. Even just taking one overpowered class off the list is better than taking none off. Heck, one of the more overpowered classes (shaman) is like that because the designer used clerics as the chassis.
3.2) If the premise is flawed, the execution will be flawed as well.
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Well a few things:
1) I have seen many posts that question whether the cleric is still even Tier 1 or that state it is at best low Tier 1.
Those were your posts Harley. You were looking at your own posts.
The idea of Domain variety that changes the way the Clerics feel intrigues me, and is the only thing I've seen so far that actually feels like unchaining the cleric.
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Remember kids, just say no to "2+Int Mod" skills per level.
Hey, I have an idea for the domain thing. Make one domain primary and one secondary. The primary one gets its tricks at levels 2, 6, 10, 14, and 18 while the secondary one gets them at levels 4, 8, 12, 16, and 20. This eliminates the boring levels completely!
^I'd actually vote for 3 Domains for the non-archetyped Cleric replacements, with the Domains rebuilt as mini-Mysteries. The reason for this is that if you want to build an approximation of the current Cleric with the new system, you could do it by taking the new Curing Domain, which would have as its low-level powers Channel Positive Energy (which is no longer a core class feature) and spontaneous casting of Cure-series spells (which is also no longer a core class feature), or the new Infliction Domain, which would have as its low-level powers Channel Negative Energy and spontaneous casting of Inflict-series spells (mirroring the Curing Domain). (Some weird dualistic deity could even offer both Domains to the same Cleric.) If you don't want to be a healbot or a divine necromancer, just don't pick either of those Domains. Some other Domains would likewise have Alignment Channel (which needs some repair of its own -- right now the Rules As Written are really strange) or Elemental Channel as low-level powers, and still some other Domains would offer Variant Channeling as their low-level powers.
Obligatory link.
I kind of like the modular approach but it still feels slightly off whack.
One of things that you notice about cleric players is that irrespective of their deity they pretty much all have the same spells and this is a big part of the cleric blandness problem.
The reason I suggested the use of the Annointed Ones and/or a divine pool was not only to add some actual flavour to the class (which ironically should be one of its biggest features) but to make it easier to add in relevant class abilities.
Also it makes archetype design easier - this also explains the general terribleness of cleric archetypes (with the v.occasional exception)... with so little to trade out, you cant do a lot!
I had an idea regarding the use of the Divine Conduit (Wisdom modifier + ½ his Exemplar level in divine energy) in that at even levels you received a sacred/profane gift. These gifts required use of the pool - there was a selection of 6-8 universal gifts that could be picked irrespective of deity and then gifts that were domain specific and scaled in power (ie how much divine energy was needed to activate them)?
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Interesting thread!
In fact, as I read through it, I got pretty stoked, because Kobold Press (publisher of the New Paths Compendium, Deep Magic etc.) should have a new class coming out soon that I think, based on the comments in this thread, will make folks very happy :)
You didn't hear that from me though :)
Reviewing the list of the cleric is a good rework, a cleric of a peaceful deity should have a limited access to war like spells, much like a wizard school specialization...
The cleric should have also a 20th level power, like all the classes, maybe a divine transformation ( Angel, Demon,...) according to his deity, a paragon of (un)holyness for few minutes...
Lets be realistic.... Paizo are NOT going to rework a list that has about 1000 spells in it!!
Any D6 'Priest' class will have to be based around the cleric class list to some degree, BUT in order to make the class distinguishable and thus relevant and thus marketable and thus profitable... it will need in my opinion:
1) To adopt a 'prayer book' approach...let the cleric have the whole list
2) Focus on having access to a wider number of domain spells and/or access to other divine spells
3) A different approach to gaining thematic powers..... let the cleric stick with regular domain powers, channeling and spontaneous heals/harms
4) WIS + dollop of INT....let the cleric be WIS + dollop of CHA
Its why although the modular approach appears simpler, its also less relevant and less marketable.
The cleric spells are mostly meh and consist often of just several iterations of the same spell (like protection from evil). That is why the cleric is lacking in my opinion.
Several spells could do with updates, but Harleequin is right, that Paizo will never do that.
It is possible however to create a class with features that allow to use the divine spell list better. That is very tricky given that it should work with other source materials, but that is what designers are for :)
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Remember kids, just say no to "2+Int Mod" skills per level.
While I agree on some levels, there are a few problems with this idea.
There is only so much you can give a class, before it is just better then other classes. I think clerics and druids (and probably summoners) are a good example of classes that got too many toys, without substantial restrictions. If you get 9th level spells, 3/4 BAB, 2 good saves, and can wear full plate and swing a greatsword if you just drop a feat on each, you don't need much more. If you want more skills, give up some BAB, or better yet some spell casting. Fighters deserve more skills, full casters deserve less casting.I know this is a hugely unpopular thing to suggest, but how about building characters that have some skills? Drop your highest stat down a point, and get a 12 Int. Spend a favored class bonus on skill instead of HP. Be a human or half elf. Take a feat that increases your skills. One of the best kept secrets of the message boards is that the game is not that difficult. You don't need maxed out stats to be successful. Even a fighter can have decent skills, and still kick ass in CR appropriate encounters. Considering the game is about having fun, many people will find greater enjoyment participating in more of the game, rather then dominating specific aspects.
Finally, these things are all relative. For example, rogues currently get 6 more skill points then a cleric. If you bump up the clerics skills, then the rogue is less powerful then he was before. The "skill classes*" should be valuable because other classes can't get the same levels of access, at least not without jumping through hoops.
* Unfortunately, wizards end up falling into this category, although they probably should not.
There is only so much you can give a class, before it is just better then other classes.
I think the point was that in remaking the cleric class, it WOULD lose out on a bunch of stuff before gaining those skill points.
For example, in my Priest idea upthread, I suggested re-designing the class to be more caster-y, such that his role would drop "physical combatant" in favor of "problem solver". Problem solver can involve a few extra boosts in the skill department.
B) Rework variant channeling. There's a lot of cleric players that love the class but don't have much interest in channeling energy. The variant channeling rules feel meh because they still keep the healing, so there's room to improve them.
I have to agree with this approach, the flavor of the cleric is in the channeling. A good rework could give the cleric the much needed versatility and thematic draw it needs without have to rework his structure.
Reviewing the list of the cleric is a good rework, a cleric of a peaceful deity should have a limited access to war like spells, much like a wizard school specialization...
The cleric should have also a 20th level power, like all the classes, maybe a divine transformation ( Angel, Demon,...) according to his deity, a paragon of (un)holyness for few minutes...Lets be realistic.... Paizo are NOT going to rework a list that has about 1000 spells in it!!
Any D6 'Priest' class will have to be based around the cleric class list to some degree, BUT in order to make the class distinguishable and thus relevant and thus marketable and thus profitable... it will need in my opinion:
1) To adopt a 'prayer book' approach...let the cleric have the whole list
{. . .}
If you do that, almost everybody will stick with Cleric as it is, thus making the new class largely unmarketable and thus unprofitable. The Cleric/Oracle spell list needs reform, as the Summoner spell list did, and the latter actually got done in Pathfinder Unchained.
If Domains were re-worked as mini-Mysteries, they should include more than 1 spell per level, while the core Cleric/Oracle list gets trimmed (and Oracle Mysteries also end up with more than 1 spell per level).
With respect to skills, let everybody who is not Intelligence-based (including non-Intelligence archetypes of Intelligence-based classes, such as Eldritch Scion Magus) get at least 4 + IntMod skills per level.
If you do that, almost everybody will stick with Cleric as it is, thus making the new class largely unmarketable and thus unprofitable. The Cleric/Oracle spell list needs reform, as the Summoner spell list did, and the latter actually got done in Pathfinder Unchained.
I dont see why that should be. If you made a D6 class that gained some more interesting abilities/access to other divine spells via some thematic means, I think it would be highly playable. I've seen lots of posts/threads by other people on the subject so the idea is already clearly of interest.
And comparing redoing the Summoner list to that of the cleric is like chalk and cheese!!!
Like I said... let the cleric keep the whole list, make the D6 class be much more selective (ie via prayer book) but balance it out with giving abilities that enable it to pinch spells off other divine lists or something similar.... quality vs quantity.
The cleric absolutely needs an 'Unchaining' but part of this I do believe is giving a separate D6 option. The D6 class does have to be distinct from the cleric.... physically more frail but full of divine wrath!
The family tree could be:
Paladin (and poss D10 Holy/Unholy Warrior) - Warpriest and Inquisitor - Cleric and Oracle - D6 class
It's a combination of things. D6 HD also means low BAB.
While medium BAB can be offset by a scaling level bonus, low BAB has a combination of extremely low bonus and low number of attacks, that basically makes it unsalvagable for heavy combat.
If I were making a d6 divine caster, I would make him a caster. A big, thorough spell list, oriented away from getting into physical combat.
Perhaps what we can look at is a middle ground between getting all spells and having to scribe all but a couple automatic.
Maybe something where every priest gets a core set of essential spells, and then a set of extra spells based on their deity/domains. This would be like several spells per spell level, per domain, totaling a significant chunk of their automatic spells.
Something like a spontaneous caster, with sorcerer spells known and all their domain spells?
The Oracle already pulls off a spontaneous divine caster well.
I like the prayerbook idea, to be able to gain any and all spells eventually, with scribing.
But, since a large number of spells are fairly important (cure, restoration, raise, and several solver spells like remove blindness/deafness/curse, etc).
What I'm suggesting is that the suggested Priest would have a prayerbook to scribe spells, and in that prayerbook they'd gain automatically those spells I mentioned above, plus a couple spells per level (like a wizard), plus a pile of spells from their domains.
As an example:
At first level a Priest of Erastil gains:
All orisons.
-General Spells-
cure light wounds, detect chaos/evil/good/law, protection from chaos/evil/good/law
-Three Domains-
Animal: calm animals, summon nature's ally I
Community: bless, sanctuary
Plant: entangle, goodberry
Plus two additional of your choice.
General Spells would give you a set of spells for that spell level, so you'd get those every new spell level.
3 domains, with 2 spells each, plus two of your choice (from a slightly edited Priest spell list) are gained each level.
This would make sure you'd get the important spells, a couple spells you feel you need, and a solid number of spells based on your deity (in this case, 6 per level). Plus you can scribe more as you find them.
Edit: Add a caveat that if a domain grants you a spell you already have, then you get to pick another generic priest spell.
personally, i'd make the cleric a spontaneous caster with all cure or inflict spells added to spells known automatically rather than spontaneous cure/inflict. and make a separate full caster, 1/2 BAB. will save only priest class that prepared spells normally. then i'd make domain choices more significant.
as someone else suggested already, domains should all grant additional class skills and possibly a minor bonus to those skills for the priest (+1 or perhaps even "add wisdom as a bonus in addition to normal stat"). also, they should grant more abilities similarly to bloodlines or mysteries. priests would be able to spontaneously cast their domain spells (so if they wanted to be healers they should probably take that domain) rather than cure/inflict spells. clerics would add them to spells known.
additionally, priests would be able to cast certain touch spells at close range. i'd have to look over the spell list to figure out a good way to determine which ones. without looking my initial inclination is to let good priests cast most harmless touch spells and evil priests the harmful ones, but like i said, a spell list review is in order.
i wouldn't take away channel energy either. again, someone suggested this already, but how you channel should tie into your deity (preferably through domain choices).
of course the priest would probably need a few other minor buffs and definitely a revamped spell list. the cleric spell list may or not need revision with this version.
If you do that, almost everybody will stick with Cleric as it is, thus making the new class largely unmarketable and thus unprofitable. The Cleric/Oracle spell list needs reform, as the Summoner spell list did, and the latter actually got done in Pathfinder Unchained.
I dont see why that should be. If you made a D6 class that gained some more interesting abilities/access to other divine spells via some thematic means, I think it would be highly playable. I've seen lots of posts/threads by other people on the subject so the idea is already clearly of interest.
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Like I said... let the cleric keep the whole list, make the D6 class be much more selective (ie via prayer book) but balance it out with giving abilities that enable it to pinch spells off other divine lists or something similar.... quality vs quantity.
The Cleric having the whole list with the d6 Priest not having the whole list but still being a prepared caster makes too much of a difference -- you would have to have REALLY good other class features to keep from having a giant sucking sound back to the original Cleric.
The cleric absolutely needs an 'Unchaining' but part of this I do believe is giving a separate D6 option. {. . .}
Now if you "Unchain" the Cleric at the same time by pruning the core spell list (which is too bloated anyway) and not letting the Cleric have automatic access to almost all of it, NOW we're talking.
Now if you "Unchain" the Cleric at the same time by pruning the core spell list (which is too bloated anyway) and not letting the Cleric have automatic access to almost all of it, NOW we're talking.
You would have to very careful when trimming the list. The summoner list got done because spells were either class inappropriate or level inappropriate.
The issues with the cleric list are nothing to do with this.... the 'bloat' comes from there being too many crap spells or spells that are effectively minor variants on existing spells.
This is why clerics all end up choosing the same spells, irrespective of their 'type'.
IMO the 'Unchaining' of the cleric is fairly simple. However, the D6 1/2 BAB variant although very much called for is a trickier class build. The WIz/Sorc spell list still should be No 1, but the D6 should make up for it in relevant and thematic 'divine boosts'.
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Clerics are among the most powerful classes in the game. Their spell list, while not as good as a Wizard's, is still really freaking good! They sure as hell don't need a power up!
...But they very desperately need something to make them more varied and interesting to plan and build. My solution to this problem (still a work in progress) was giving them more Domain Powers at certain levels and a few channel-related abilities.
It ended up being a buff, of course... But it's small enough that it isn't a problem. And I've revised/removed the most problematic spells in the game, so it kinda evens out.