The new Bouncing Bomb Admixture doesn't work at all as written, does it?

[LeesusFreak]

Seen here on the PFSRD, or in your copy of the shiny new Magic Tactics Toolbox from last month.

As far as I'm aware extracts are always standard actions to draw/drink/take effect, and while this has come up before on swift-action spells that are cross-listed on the alchemist list, this one doesn't seem to work -at all-. While we'll never get an errata on Player Companion material, perhaps a FAQ to end all questions on swift-casting time extracts?

[swoosh]

Wouldn't this just be a case of specific vs general? Normally it's a standard action but Bouncing Bomb says it's a swift.

[Rysky]

Unfortunately no, since while the "casting" time is a swift there's nothing in the extract description itself that says Alchemists can drink it as such.

An unfortunate oversight.

[Illeist]

Agreed; the spell is entirely worthless... Except for a Samsaran Wizard/Alchemist who adds the spell to his wizard list and casts it the old-fashioned way?

[Tyrant Lizard King]

I would have to say that since it ONLY appears on the Alchemists spell list AND specifies that it is a swift action to use it is an exception to the normal Standard action Extract "casting" time. Therefore, use extract as a swift action... throw a bomb as a standard... choose a target that would take splash damage... two targets take direct hit damage. Obviously on a successful attack roll.

There is really no other way to describe how this extract could possibly work.

That would make an Immolation Bomb exceptionally ugly LOL

[Rysky]

Unfortunately that's not how the alchemist works.

The likely situation is the author who wrote that extract was unaware/forgot that it's always a standard action to drink Extracts.

[Belafon]

Delayed Consumption is the only way I see to get it to work. But if you're going to do that you might as well go for a Viper Bomb Admixture.

[Tyrant Lizard King]

Assuming the author didn't make a mistake, then my post would be accurate.

If it WAS a mistake with the "swift" casting time, then its actually still a standard action to imbibe the extract and the 1 round duration applies to the following round for the first bomb thrown only?

I have to say, the latter sounds utterly useless. It because of that is why I believe that this extract is intended to be used as listed as a swift action before you throw a bomb on that same turn. All other admixtures have a several round duration but require a standard action (like all other extracts) to imbibe. It stands to reason that if its duration is a single round AND only applies to the first bomb thrown then imbibing it as a swift action would make it actually useable and balanced.

I understand the text for extracts says they are all standard actions to imbibe as they also have a "casting" time of standard action, however, this Bouncing Bomb Admixture is from a newer book. These are just my opinions but my points are valid.

[Snowlilly]

I was under the impression most alchemists took Accelerated Drinker

[Matrix Dragon]

Snowlilly wrote:

I was under the impression most alchemists took Accelerated Drinker

It doesn't work for alchemists because extracts don't count as 'potions'. Yes, it is silly, lol.

[Pizza Lord]

I also tend to agree that it doesn't seem to work.

Personally, that admixture seems a really unnecessary and potent ability. Initially it just looks like "Hey, if you hit a guy you get to automatically hit another guy next to him for full effects," but reading it, it looks like now you don't even need to hit your enemy, just land next to him (which a touch ranged attack is almost always going to do even if you somehow miss.) This is now an auto-hit, no-defense move against a single target.

Sure, maybe you don't get to hit 2 guys for full effect, but you can always just target the one guy's square for basically an auto-hit. Normally this isn't optimal since splash damage is typically nothing compared to a normal hit's effect (though again, touch attacks are easy and a miss is likely to land within an adjacent square anyhow).

I know, you may be thinking there's also true strike, that's 1st level and gives you a +20 to hit and ignores concealment, but even with that, you still always have a 5% chance to miss, in which case you splash for minimum damage and a Reflex save for half. Also, that doesn't prevent the target from using Deflect Arrows or similar abilities to protect themselves.

With this admixture, you no longer attack your target, you just toss the bomb at his square (like AC 5 touch) and even if you miss it's still almost guaranteed to be within a square of that, so your target is considered a splash target. Now you're avoiding his AC, his concealment, his cover, he has no chance to Deflect it or use any feats, he no longer gets a Reflex save and takes pretty much full damage. Not even going into how this basically allows what is considered a 'direct attack' to circumvent effects like sanctuary or other defenses that specifically prevent direct attacks (yes, splash damage on a protected foe is allowed, but again, that's at minimum damage and with a Reflex save for half).

This seems a huge kick in the face to anybody with even a modicum of defense against an attack form that is already almost impossible to miss with (touch attack, area-effect damage, extended throwing range, splash damage even on a miss.) Really, do alchemists have it that hard to hit their targets? It isn't even about damage or effects. It's not about whether an alchemist's damage compares to anyone or that it amounts to basically an automatic hit and full damage, but that it screws out defenses and the basic core system of attack/defense mechanics of the system. Even magic missiles have a simple 1st level power that cancels them completely or even without that, allow Spell Resistance. This power gets a huge thumbs-down from me not just for poor planning but implementation.

At the least, it needs to be clarified that its effects should only apply if you actually strike a creature (not a square, either directly or on a miss scatter). Otherwise this amounts to just an auto-hit, full effect, no defense move against any target. Just my opinion and observation on what this power brings to the gaming table. Not saying it's Armageddon or anything, just a disappointing and unnecessary thing to see trotted out.

[UnArcaneElection]

Seems that this should require an additional attack roll to hit the second target (which would fix the too-easy-to-hit 2nd target problem noted above although not the spell timing problem), but the spell description doesn't seem to include this.

[Menacing Shade of mauve]

Snowlilly wrote:

I was under the impression most alchemists took Accelerated Drinker

No, these days they all worship Urgathoa and drink their extracts as a swift action.

[Firebug]

Menacing Shade of mauve wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

I was under the impression most alchemists took Accelerated Drinker

No, these days they all worship Urgathoa and drink their extracts as a swift action.

Sure, you can drink an extract as a swift action.

Did you already have it in hand? No?

Ok, because the normal standard action usage also involves drawing the extract and then drinking it. Potion Glutton does not change the action to draw the extract. So best case, you would move action draw, swift drink, standard action draw+drink. Its still really good, just not quite as good as "free quicken metamagic".

[Diego Rossi]

Matrix Dragon wrote:

Snowlilly wrote:

I was under the impression most alchemists took Accelerated Drinker

It doesn't work for alchemists because extracts don't count as 'potions'. Yes, it is silly, lol.

1 feat to be able to "drink 2 spells" every round? No, it is not silly at all that it don't work.

[swoosh]

For the people calling it overpowered:

You're essentially just trading bombs/day for spells/day, only worse because you lose a lot of splash damage.

I mean I guess if you're fighting an enemy with a tremendously high touch AC the auto hit is nice, but true strike accomplishes that same goal with a first level extract instead. Slightly less reliable, but only just and it is two whole spell levels lower.

I suppose if there is one enemy with a very high touch and one enemy with a low touch AC and you absolutely need to hit both of them it does that better than true strike, but you're basically skipping your turn so if bombing them is that critical you likely don't have the time to spare.

If you do though I guess it's nice. I'm just not really seeing that as overpowered.

Diego Rossi wrote:

1 feat to be able to "drink 2 spells" every round? No, it is not silly at all that it don't work.

While you're right that it would be far too strong for a feat, it most definitely is silly, because extracts sometimes function like potions and sometimes function like spells and sometimes function like neither in a completely arbitrary fashion.

Well, I guess not completely arbitrary. In any situation where potions, spells and supernatural abilities behave differently, pick the one that's least favorable to the caster and that's generally how extracts function.

[Menacing Shade of mauve]

They could have just answered the Accellerated Drinker question with "No. Drinking an extract specifically takes a standard action, no matter how quickly your character can drink other liquids. Only abilities that specifically change the time for extracts can change that." Boom, done, futureproofed.

[Rysky]

Tyrant Lizard King wrote:

Assuming the author didn't make a mistake, then my post would be accurate.

If it WAS a mistake with the "swift" casting time, then its actually still a standard action to imbibe the extract and the 1 round duration applies to the following round for the first bomb thrown only?

I have to say, the latter sounds utterly useless. It because of that is why I believe that this extract is intended to be used as listed as a swift action before you throw a bomb on that same turn. All other admixtures have a several round duration but require a standard action (like all other extracts) to imbibe. It stands to reason that if its duration is a single round AND only applies to the first bomb thrown then imbibing it as a swift action would make it actually useable and balanced.

I understand the text for extracts says they are all standard actions to imbibe as they also have a "casting" time of standard action, however, this Bouncing Bomb Admixture is from a newer book. These are just my opinions but my points are valid.

Which would be fine, except there's no precedent or sidebar stating that swift extracts can be drunk as such in any of the books, least of all this one attached to this extract, which means it was most likely an oversight.

Simply a slip of the writer, rather than introducing a new rule and not actually explaining said new rule.

[Gulthor]

Yep, just another example of a writer missing how the alchemist works, much in the same way that the mythic Archmage has abilities referring to extracts, despite none of the archmage's primary path features actually working for an alchemist.

Accelerated Drinker explicitly doesn't function with extracts, as explained in this FAQ (Accelerated Drinker works *only* for potions, not including elixirs, mundane beverages, or potion-like objects,) so that's out.

So, how could you make this work?

Well, the Potion Glutton feat should allow it, but A) expect table variance because it makes some people really angry despite it still requiring a move + swift, and B) it requires that you worship Urgathoa, which is pretty distasteful.

Poisoner’s Gloves, the alchemist's constant friend, make it functional.

If you have access to them, medlances and spring-loaded wrist sheaths duplicate the effects of Potion Glutton while explicitly stating that they work with extracts, and don't require you to worship an unsavory deity (and they're extremely cheap.)

A tumor familiar "holding the charge" could deliver it to you.

That's it as far as I'm aware.

Then of course, it suffers from the fact that for a 3rd level extract, it's just not that great :/

(EDIT: Of course, if it actually worked as a swift, it would be quite good.)

[Gulthor]

As a thought; considering that we've seen new casting components, such as Thought and Emotion, it's interesting to think if extracts and the alchemist could have been much improved had it simply been written that they work as spells with a "Consumption" casting component.

[Menacing Shade of mauve]

BTW, while we're jerking around with the RAW, we *do* all understand that it's suppossed to work as a swift action, right?

[Snowlilly]

Menacing Shade of mauve wrote:

BTW, while we're jerking around with the RAW, we *do* all understand that it's suppossed to work as a swift action, right?

Of course.

My table would certainly run it as such.

[QuidEst]

Since I'm not fond of it being somehow drinkable faster than all the others, I'd probably make up wording like a duration of 10 min/level, 1 round. You drink it as a standard beforehand, and activate it any time during the duration as a swift. It only counts for your admixture limit on the activated round. But I admit it's much more reasonable and straightforward to run it as a swift drink.

The Player Companion line has a lot of issues with how Alchemist works, though, giving them offensive touch spells and area effect spells that don't function.

[LeesusFreak]

Gulthor wrote:

As a thought; considering that we've seen new casting components, such as Thought and Emotion, it's interesting to think if extracts and the alchemist could have been much improved had it simply been written that they work as spells with a "Consumption" casting component.

That would certainly make for an interesting houserule, though you'd have to attach extra weight and drawbacks to the consumption tag (so things like Haste are still as bad for the alchemist as they are right now compared to regular casting)

Snowlilly wrote:

Menacing Shade of mauve wrote:

BTW, while we're jerking around with the RAW, we *do* all understand that it's suppossed to work as a swift action, right?

Of course.

My table would certainly run it as such.

Oh yeah, that's definitely what I read the intent as, otherwise it's silly and so niche and obscure it shouldn't exist to begin with.

[Zwordsman]

when i first read it I thought you imbibed it and activated it later..
but there wasn't a time frame for that..
Shame that would be a cool way to do it either