Hi,
We were playing yesterday and ran into a Dire Bear. Our 7th level rogue got grabbed by it, and tried to escape the grapple.
He had 20 dex and maxed out Escape Artist, which gave him +15 to escape the grapple. The Dire bear had +26 CMD, so he had 50% chance to get free.
50%. And we're speaking about someone who's very talented at escaping.
Any other level 7 character wouldn't have escape artist (or 20 dex) and would rely on CMB. This means a fighter would have around +11/+12, a cleric probably +5 and a wizard even less. So they're screwed.
But, you say, a grapple is supposed to be hard to break. 50% chance is not so bad for your rogue, and your fighter would have around 30% chance.
But that's the thing: a bear isn't even GOOD at grappling.
An Allosorus has 29.
A Lurker above has 30
One level earlier, a Havero Tentacle has 28.
Long story short, any kind of monster using grab is likely specced for it, which means a huge grapple CMD, which means very little chance to escape.
Did I miss something ? Aren't the rules a bit harsch ? I can understand that a scrawny wizard shouldn't be able to escape a grapple easily, but a fighter or even a slippery rogue won't have much of a chance. Do we have to assume that once we're grappled, we won't ever escape ?
Thanks for your input ;)
I do feel that the grappling rules are only balanced if both participants have spent about the same amount of resources toward it. My opinion is that the GM should use grabbing monsters sparingly and discourage your players from specing in it.
Did the rogue remember to apply the -4 Dexterity penalty and subsequent penalty to Escape Artist?
Rogue also has the option of simply stabbing the bear, and still get sneak attack if party members simply walk around for a flanking position, both the bear and rogue has grappled condition so no need to worry about AoOs; I doubt the bear took a -20 penalty to grab attempt to avoid the condition.
As you get higher non-humanoid enemies CMB and CMD get stupid high. A huge elemental, also cr7 has a CMD of 34-40. There's a reason that freedom of movement is now an option for characters.
There are a number of significant problems with the combat maneuver system numerically.
That said, there are a few things you need to consider. Grappling rules are the same for a monster with grab as with a person. If you weaken the rules for the big stompy bear, a person trying to be a grappler is hampered also. So while the you might think the bear has too high a check, consider the fact that that +15 to escape artist, is rather high against a similar person trying to grapple you.
There are also spells, and items that are relatively easy to have available that give significant bonuses to escape. Applying a big of alchemical grease to yourself can make a world of difference.
Also consider the investment of options here. 7 skill ranks is a relatively limited investment, but a fighter who is trying to be a grappler has unarmed strike, improved grapple, and probably one or two other feats, far more limited resources then skills. Even more so for non-fighters or monks. So to just have a high dex and 7 skill ranks grant a good chance of nullifying what they are speced for is a problem.
Also consider that you don't actually have to break the grapple. Pull out a one handed weapon and attack back. You aren't helpless when grappled (at least not initially). And there are things that can be far more devastating if they succeed against you. There are spells and abilities that render you helpless with a single success. Why does a grappler need to face a good chance that after they succeed on their thing, an opponent could render their previous action moot with a high degree of success?
Consider also that in most cases, monsters maintaining a grapple on you is less threatening, if more debilitating then a full attack.
Lets look back at that dire bear:
The turn after they have grabbed you
They can either A: Grapple you again to pin you B Grapple you again to maintain the grapple and damage you ONCE with a claw or bite or C attack you with 2 claws and a bite for an average of 30something damage.
For anyone seriously concerned about being grappled, A or B sounds a lot better then 30-40 damage at 7th level don't you think?
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Personally, I feel anything that Grapples you, deserves the attention of your Party aside from you handling it on your own. Grapples are scary, but the creatures grappling suffer the penalties as well unless they have Feats or Class Feats that say otherwise. So it creates an opening for party members to get an advantage against the creature grappling you... assuming they can reach you. Grapples in general are pretty powerful(probably intentional), which is why they're so scary. It shuts opponents down, and if you can't get out somehow you're essentially doomed.
Well, typically when it comes to Grapple, usually the Frontline fighters are targeted since they're in the way. Anyone who is weak to that sort of thing, should be in the middle or back(relatively speaking). If for some reason they get grappled, then everyone should support them to stop the grapple somehow.
I feel that most creatures don't Grapple naturally or just aren't specialized in it. Which is totally fine. It's good to have a "Surprise Grapple!" here and there to spice things up. Now, a creature that can grapple multiple foes at a time... or a horde of grappling poisonous abberations... is nothing to scoff at. I'd say at that point it's too powerful.
Edit: One addition here; I will say I don't particularly like the way CMB scales with CR... or CMD really. That is what kind of breaks things for me and can really hurt a lot of builds.
If someone is grappled within the party, everyone should treat it like that party member is literally going to die in 2 turns or less.
Another thing to consider here is the behavior of the grappler in question. If the grappled PC's party moves to support him and hammers on the grappler, does it make sense for it to endure that and maintain the full hold or go for a pin? Probably not. That's a good time for the bear, with his grab ability, to step down to the -20 penalty so it can also deal with the pesky PCs attacking. That significantly raises the escape artist's chances of getting away.
I don't think it makes a lot of sense, other than from a gamist, GM vs player point of view, for that bear to maintain the full grapple in that circumstance. It strikes me as a GM trying to inflict maximum mayhem on one PC or on party resources rather than playing the bear like a bear with a modicum of self-preservational instinct. Caught alone, then sure, that bear is going to grapple the crap out of someone because then it's now about the bear securing lunch, not surviving while outnumbered.
Escaping a grapple should be very hard, as it is in the real world.
Your best chance should to not be grappled, which admittedly should be easier (avoid the grapple). Some of these monsters have ridiculous, "auto-success", CMBs and savy PCs should naturally be able to avoid things better than their unmodified CMBs suggest.
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Grappling is broken. It's not too bad with monsters but for a player character specced for grappling it can be insane (Seen a Grappling specced character in that level range with a +42 grapple check). Think I read some where that Grappling is on the list of things Piazo wants to take a look at and maybe do a complete re-write of the grappling rules.
There's a number of different ways to help out vs Grappled condition (for the players). The cheapest are the spells Grease & Liberating Command, both first level spells.
I bet you money that the Grappling Player was a Tetori!! haha
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A bear should out grapple a human.
This is one of the reasons my casters always have grease ready to go. A A CL 10 or so Liberating Command is a fine option for a scroll.
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I had a similar annoyance playing as a ninja. I even had skill focus.
Ive not been afraid of grapples much, as it allows a full attack on your turn. Animals tend to get solid benefits though, making them a bit scarier (grab/rend/rake/constrict/swallow whole/quick swallow...).
Liberateding command, freedom of movement, freedom domain power, friendly grease, stuning it (dont grapple monks), any teleport effect.... Making them less of a threat at high levels.
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Irrelevant? I'm sure experiencing death on the material plane repeatedly is high on the suck list. We know summoned outsiders still feel pain.Grappling - if you can survive to round 2 its very effective against a single foe. Against groups it becomes more of a hindrance.
A grappling eidolon (where death is irrelevant) is truly broken.
My buddy was summoning a hellhound repeatedly to get cursed..after the 6th or 7th instance the GM responded
"Evil Fido is not accepting calls today, please leave your name, planar location, current request, and Evil Fido will get back to you at his earliest convenience"
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A player specialised in grappling almost excessively strong, yes it might take two rounds but once someone is pinned, next move is coup-de-grace and the fight is over. I shouldn't need to tell you that defeating a boss in 3 rounds is too fast (1 round to run over to him).
A player specialised in grappling almost excessively strong, yes it might take two rounds but once someone is pinned, next move is coup-de-grace and the fight is over. I shouldn't need to tell you that defeating a boss in 3 rounds is too fast (1 round to run over to him).
If you think that's bad, don't look up Hold Person.
There's a reason Boots of Escape became a primary purchase for my Summoner. Because i knew that every PFS scenario in the 7-11 range was going to get him into an inescapable grapple at least once.
And I was right.