|
4 people marked this as a favorite.
|
Cpt_kirstov wrote: Aragon... Legolas... 10-15th level. You're killing me.
CWheezy wrote: Its thematically appropriate that wizards are immediately masters of any spell they learn but fighters have to work really hard for a long long time. Spells don't have a level of mastery, you either cast them them or you don't.
Then again, I haven't seen that many first level wizards casting wish. So the comparison is a bit disingenuous.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote: Then again, I haven't seen that many first level wizards casting wish. So the comparison is a bit disingenuous. Yeah, but your comparison is too, because a 20th level fighter who tries to fight with two weapons is going to fail to do anything effective against a CR appropriate enemy without significant expenditure of feats and magic.
Any 20th level wizard can just prepare and cast wish though.
DominusMegadeus wrote: Cpt_kirstov wrote: Aragon... Legolas... 10-15th level. You're killing me. That's actually a really good illustration of the point though. We have a character and if on the one hand you look at the adventure they're in and what they tend to fight they're often in the single digits, but if you look at their capabilities they have to be in the teens or even beyond level twenty to function.
That highlights the issue pretty well. In other forms of fiction (and even real life in some of these examples) characters that are merely above average can do what Paizo thinks characters who can duel demigods should only be able to barely accomplish.
Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:
Spells don't have a level of mastery, you either cast them them or you don't.
what if fighters could use weapons like wizards could use spells???
Would be nice if Fighters had the same kind of ability to swap Weapon Training as they had for swapping Bonus Feats. Also consider rolling the Brawler's Martial Flexibility into the base Fighter (and make the other Brawler stuff be Fighter options), rather than needing an archetype that trades out stuff.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
This is why our group uses (and loves!) the variant presented by the World is Square.
swoosh wrote: That highlights the issue pretty well. In other forms of fiction (and even real life in some of these examples) characters that are merely above average can do what Paizo thinks characters who can duel demigods should only be able to barely accomplish. What is "merely above average" and "barely accomplish"? If we're talking about two-weapon fighting and archery, by 3rd level a human fighter can have:
1- Two-Weapon Fighting
1- Weapon Finesse
1- Point-Blank Shot
2- Rapid Shot
3- Precise Shot
By level 3, a human rogue could have:
1- Two-weapon Fighting
1- Point-blank shot
2- (Rogue Talent) Rapid Shot
3- Precise Shot
Plus they're getting Weapon Finesse and dex-to-damage on their primary weapon for free.
Similar math lets you do it for a Slayer, Ranger, or Brawler.
Actually, thinking more about the Maneuver Mastery Magus Arcana, I might have to errata the switch-hitting Myrmidarch Magus build I posted above. Maneuver Mastery lets you use your Magus level in place of your Base Attack Bonus for performing combat maneuvers, but this might not actually be good enough to qualify for Ace Trip at level 7, since Maneuver Mastery doesn't say that its substitution counts for feat prerequisites, and you need Magus level 9 to get actual Base Attack Bonus +6. I was going to say interchange this with the next feat, but the next feat is Greater Trip, which also needs Base Attack Bonus +6, which means that if my re-understanding of Maneuver Mastery is correct, it can't be moved forward either. I guess the next best thing is to bump Combat Casting forward to level 7, and then bump Ace Trip and Greater Trip back by 2 levels so that they are both legal.
The build I posted after that one (with the Hexcrafter) takes enough longer to get online that it should already be legal (if I didn't misread something else).
swoosh wrote: I've been mulling over a few ideas for switch hitting characters lately and I've been kind of stunned at how incredibly hard it is to build someone who can use two or more weapon styles effectively.
Even with access to fighter bonus feats or ranger styles or something similar it still takes quite a while to get online and you still end up hitting some sort of roadblock eventually. With a rogue or investigator or cavalier or barbarian or swashbuckler or something else I've decided it's more or less a lost cause to even try.
This seems really weird, especially given how common the concept of someone with two or more fighting styles is in fiction.
It really seems unnecessary.
It's not impossible to be good with a variety of weapons, but it is hard. I think the reason is that achieving powerful effects in your character build involves fitting together a confluence of Feats, Class Abilities, spells, and equipment. Swapping out your weapon for some other weapon changes the fit and can easily nerf your character.
Making sure your character grows in multiple areas is challenging, but rewarding. I often find that aggressive character builds have aggressive weaknesses to go with their aggressive strengths. But the times when I contribute to my party most have to do with my characters' versatility than with my characters' cool, powerful effects.
I think you should develop your character with an eye to how much your powerful effects cost, and if any of the feats and abilities you took can also be used to develop your character in other areas. For example, when you take a level in Alchemist, you Dex Mutagen increases your AC, but also increases your Attack Roll with your Bow, and it increases the number of Attacks of Opportunity you can get. If you have an AoO build, and you already have a level in Alchemist, you might want to invest in a Wand of Shield, which you can use with that level in Alchemist. You get the idea.
I just started with a PFS character. She is a lvel 1 Ranger with Cleave, a Wand of Cure Light Wounds, and a Wand of Lead Blades. She will level up if she survives her next adventure, and she will acquire a Wand of Gravity Bow, and her Combat Style Feat will be Precise Shot. So she will be an effective archer with Precise Shot and her arrows' base damage will be 2d6. Her base damage with her Cold Iron Greatsword and with her Alchemal Silver Earthbreaker is 3d6. She can pump herseslf up with Power Attack vs. Single opponents, and she has Cleave for multiple opponents. So she already is a full-package fighter.
Later I will work in an AoO feature and a grappling feature. Her favored class will end up being Alchemist, augmenting her Grappling with a King Crab Tumor Protector Familiar, a Tentacle, and she will start shooting exploding arrows. By level 12, she will be a devastating Grappler, net several attacks/round, and shoot arrows that do 5d6 each. And I've worked out a trick for doubling her hit points.
To do this, she is going to multiclass extensively with levels in Ranger, Fighter, Cavalier, Monk, and Alchemist, perhaps even a level in White Haired Witch. It's a very elaborate build requiring nuanced understanding of the rules.
^Now THIS I've got to see . . . .
UnArcaneElection wrote: ^Now THIS I've got to see . . . .
You mean you want to see my build?
swoosh wrote: Why is it so hard to get good with multiple weapons? Because casters don't need to be good with weapons, let alone multiple.
Charon's Little Helper wrote: Rogar Valertis wrote:
It's something coming out of 3rd edition that was never changed with PF.
Weapon Specialization was a thing in 2e as well. One of the Fighter's advantages was being able to specialize further than even other martials. (If I remember - it was basically their only advantage over paladin/ranger other than leveling a bit faster.) Also having easier entrance requirements. In 2nd edition paladins and rangers were rare due to having high stat requirements. Fighters on the other hand just needed 9 Str. Same reason you'd go for cleric instead of druid, or being a generalist wizard rather then a specialist. Or a thief instead of a bard. The specialized and hybrid classes had difficult to meet entrance requirements.
When I was first messing around with a scythe fighter build, I did a high level build to see what it might look like. And then compared damage output to CR appropriate foes. It took something like 9 feats just to get damage good enough that the build would be effective against high CR foes that have lots of hit points. And it pretty much had to specialize in doing single big hits each round. Doing full round attack chains was proving to be sub-optimal due to losing out on a lot of benefits from various feats.
Other feats went towards things like defenses, combat reflexes, and similar things. But using anything other then a scythe removes much of the melee capability. Ranged weapons suffer even more. Still, it looked like a good build.
Even at level 2 said scythe fighter loses a lot of effectiveness when not using a scythe. But that's not always a good idea. Things out of melee range, have to use my bow. Well, there goes power attack. Lower Attack Bonus too due to no weapon focus and lower dex then strength. Damage output naturally goes down due to no power attack. If I have to pull out my morningstar due to something being resistant to slashing I lose weapon focus, which means lower Attack bonus. Some damage as well. And this is only level 2.
I know "golf bag" armament seems odd. But eventually it becomes standard practice. At least in my experience it does. You, the adventurer, have no idea what you're going to face. So with experience you start carrying around a silver weapon (possibly a mithral version of your main weapon). Then after a nasty encounter or two you start carrying around a cold iron weapon, then one made from another material. Tired of being less then effective against hostile spirits, you get a ghost touch weapon. You get tired of troll regeneration so maybe you start carrying around a flaming weapon as well. Pretty soon people can't see your armor underneath all the weapons :)
These can't ALL be your preferred weapon type. Especially if that preferred weapon is a 2 hander as big as you are. Bags of holding not withstanding, how are you carrying around all these gigantic weapons? And you need them available at moments notice, so they can't be shoved into your bag of holding. So now you've got an assortment of knives, daggers, swords, axes, probably a bow (and quiver)... But you can only truly master ONE of these. Which kind of makes sense in a way.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Kahel Stormbender wrote: When I was first messing around with a scythe fighter build, I did a high level build to see what it might look like. And then compared damage output to CR appropriate foes. It took something like 9 feats just to get damage good enough that the build would be effective against high CR foes that have lots of hit points. And it pretty much had to specialize in doing single big hits each round. Doing full round attack chains was proving to be sub-optimal due to losing out on a lot of benefits from various feats.
Other feats went towards things like defenses, combat reflexes, and similar things. But using anything other then a scythe removes much of the melee capability. Ranged weapons suffer even more. Still, it looked like a good build.
Even at level 2 said scythe fighter loses a lot of effectiveness when not using a scythe. But that's not always a good idea. Things out of melee range, have to use my bow. Well, there goes power attack. Lower Attack Bonus too due to no weapon focus and lower dex then strength. Damage output naturally goes down due to no power attack. If I have to pull out my morningstar due to something being resistant to slashing I lose weapon focus, which means lower Attack bonus. Some damage as well. And this is only level 2.
I know "golf bag" armament seems odd. But eventually it becomes standard practice. At least in my experience it does. You, the adventurer, have no idea what you're going to face. So with experience you start carrying around a silver weapon (possibly a mithral version of your main weapon). Then after a nasty encounter or two you start carrying around a cold iron weapon, then one made from another material. Tired of being less then effective against hostile spirits, you get a ghost touch weapon. You get tired of troll regeneration so maybe you start carrying around a flaming weapon as well. Pretty soon people can't see your armor underneath all the weapons :)
These can't ALL be your preferred weapon type. Especially if that preferred weapon is a 2 hander as big...
Pictured: a well-prepared adventurer
Lucy_Valentine wrote: Chess Pwn wrote: I still don't see any reason WHY you'd want to do this. Because you're referencing film or literature (or real life) for your inspiration, rather than mechanics. Oh Snap!
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Scott Wilhelm wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: ^Now THIS I've got to see . . . .
You mean you want to see my build? How am I supposed to steal it if I don't?
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
UnArcaneElection wrote: Scott Wilhelm wrote: UnArcaneElection wrote: ^Now THIS I've got to see . . . .
You mean you want to see my build? How am I supposed to steal it if I don't?
Human, Hester Estrella
St 16
In 12
Wis 14
Dex 14
Con 13
Cr 10
Alignment, True Neutral
Level 1: Power Attack, Cleave, Freebooter's Bane, BAB+1
2R2: Precise Shot, BAB+2
So, with Precise Shot, she can be the party archer. It takes 3 adventures to gain a level, hopefully earning 2 prestige points each, in that time she will acquire a wand of cure light wounds, a wand of lead blades, and a wand of gravity bow. She has 2 strong melee weapons: an Alchemal Silver Earthbreaker and a Cold Iron Greatsword. Under the influence of the Wands, the Melee Weapons do 3d6 Damage, and the arrows do 2d6.
3R2Fighter1: Eldritch Gaurdian, Fox (+2 Reflex), Protector (Bodyguard & Combat Reflexes), Blind Fighting, BAB+3
The Familiar will essentially give her a +2 AC, nice, since she is wearing Lamellar Leather with no shield. Blind Fighting is fairly essential for a Human. She might acquire a magic wand that gives her Scent. Between the 2, she will be functional in magical darkness and against Invisible opponents. She will not enchant her Lamellar armor, holding out for a Spiked, Mithril, Agile Breastplate.
4R2F1Cavalier1: Constable, Order of the Penitent, Paired Opportunist, Challenge, Tactician, Con +1, BAB+4
With Tactician, she can give Paired Opportnist to all her allies, including her Familiar. So whenever anyone gets an AoO, everybody does, and the Familiar gets an Attack of Opportunity whenever anyone attacks Hester. But Hester only gets 1 AoO/round until
5R2F1C1Monk1: Unarmed 1d6, Monk Stuff, Martial Artist, Combat Reflexes, Great Cleave
Now, she gets 3 Attacks of Opportunity/round while using Tactician.
6R2F2C1M1: Shared Training, +1 Will Saves, BAB+5
Now Hester's Familiar has all her Combat Feats, including Paired Opportunist. The pair benefit from Paired Opportunist full time. The rest of her allies get it when she uses Tactician.
7R2F2C1M2: Evasion, Improved Grapple, Greater Grapple, BAB+6
8R2F2C2M2: Expert Captor, Intelligence +1, BAB+7
Expert Captor will let Hester Tie Up a Grappled--not Pinned!--opponent without taking the normal -10 to the roll. Greater Grapple will her make 2 checks/round to harm her opponent: 1 as a Standard Action as per normal, the 2nd as a Move Action. So if she begins her round adjacent to you, she might have you hogtied in 1 round!
9R2F2C2M2Alchemist1 Grenadier, Bombs 1d6, Extra Bombs, Throw Anything, Extracts, Mutagens, Potion Glutton
I'm not sure which Mutagen will be my favorite: a character with more than 4 attacks/round, Strength is really good, but since this is an AoO build, more dex = more attacks. Plus, pumping up her Dex will let her realize the added Max Dex Bonus for the Mithril in her armor. Then again, the St Mutagen increases her Grapple Mod, and that will be crucial.
Potion Glutton lets you consume any Potable as a Swift Action, and you drink Extracts: they are potable! So she might use a Wand of True Strike on herself as a Standard Action then run up to her opponent as a Move action. then the next round Grapple with an extra +20 due to True Strike as a Standard Action, take an extract of True Strike as a Swift Action, then Tie Up her opponent as a Move Action. I had a level 9 Grappler before who had a full time GMB of +30. What even has a CMD of 50? As long as she doean't have to Grapple anything tougher than a Balor Demon, she pretty much has it sorted.
To take Potion Glutton, you need to worship Uragothoa, and in Pathfinder Society, your only alignment choice is True Neutral, and that means Hester is restricted to the Martial Artist Monk Archetype. I suppose, it's not necessary, since she isn't intending to take any more levels in Monk anyway, but better to keep the T's crossed and i's dotted.
10R2F2C2M2A2: Alchemal Weapon, King Crab, Tumor, Protector Familiar, BAB+8
She will lose the +2 Reflex Save from the Fox, but gain a +2 on Grapple Checks. Also, she gets to put Alchemal Weapons on her arrows, adding say another 1d6 of Acid or Fire Damage. Exploding arrows are cool
11R2F2C2M2A3: Bombs 2d6, Poison, Extra Discovery, Tentacle, BAB+9
12R2F2C2M2A4: Explosive Missile, Ability +1, BAB+10
The Tentacle gives a +4 on Grappling. Explosive Missile lets her put her Bombs on her arrows, which now do 5d6/hit.
Like I said, a full-package fighter: powerful grappler, strong in melee, effective at range, capable of operating while Blinded, very strong saves, decent BAB.
With so few Alchemist levels out of your total levels, are you sure you want to invest in Extra Bombs? Your Explosive Missile will be adding +2d6 only a handful of times per day. Although I have to admit it sure has the cool factor.
Also, with respect to Potion Glutton, I have seen some discussion on these boards about whether it applies to Extracts. I'm not saying it doesn't, but might want to check up on that.
Those Familiars are going to be rather wimpy, with only 2 and 4 class levels supporting them, respectively. Why not combine the Eldritch Guardian and Mutation Warrior archetypes of Fighter (seems like they can be combined)? Then you get more levels on your Familiar from Eldritch Guardian (at the expense of not being able to take Tumor Familiar or get the few exploding arrows per day -- I know, not as cool) and losing 1 less Base Attack Bonus. Not being an Alchemist, you will have less need for Potion Glutton, so you could be an Unchained Monk (which isn't compatible with the Martial Artist archetype) and lose even 1 less Base Attack Bonus.
UnArcaneElection wrote: With so few Alchemist levels out of your total levels, are you sure you want to invest in Extra Bombs? Extra Bombs is not optional for PFS Alchemists. They don't get Brew Potion. They get Extra Bombs instead.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Your Explosive Missile will be adding +2d6 only a handful of times per day. Although I have to admit it sure has the cool factor. Fair to say.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Also, with respect to Potion Glutton, I have seen some discussion on these boards about whether it applies to Extracts. I'm not saying it doesn't, but might want to check up on that. It is definitely strongly disliked by a fair number of contributors, but I haven't found any official rules source saying that Potion Glutton doesn't apply to Extracts and Mutagens. It wasn't for lack of looking. I searched for it just a week ago.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Those Familiars are going to be rather wimpy, with only 2 and 4 class levels supporting them, respectively. Only 1 Familiar: the Crab Tumor Familiar replaces the Fox Familiar. And Familiar levels from Eldritch Guardian and Alchemist stack. The Familiar will have 1/2 the HP my character has, same as all familiars. When I get my 3rd level in Alchemist, the familiar will gain the Shield Other Ability, offset by its Fast Healing 5.
That being said, it will be arguably wimpy. The purpose of the Familiar is to stay on my PC's person, improve my AC, CMB, and/or Saving throws and give me AoOs.
UnArcaneElection wrote: Why not combine the Eldritch Guardian and Mutation Warrior archetypes of Fighter (seems like they can be combined)? Then you get more levels on your Familiar from Eldritch Guardian (at the expense of not being able to take Tumor Familiar or get the few exploding arrows per day -- I know, not as cool) and losing 1 less Base Attack Bonus. Not being an Alchemist, you will have less need for Potion Glutton, so you could be an Unchained Monk (which isn't compatible with the Martial Artist archetype) and lose even 1 less Base Attack Bonus. I'll take a 2nd look at Mutation Warrior. I wasn't impressed last I looked, but if you think it's worth a look, I'll look again. Honestly, I prefer the chained to the Unchained Monk. I like the +2 Will Save better than the +1 BAB.
Not taking levels in Alchemist means no True Strike, though, and I really want True Strike. I want that +20 to Grappling. Also, it's good for shooting arrows into Smoke.
You could UMD True Strike off a Wand or Scroll (you were planning to do this at the early levels anyway).
UnArcaneElection wrote: You could UMD True Strike off a Wand or Scroll I suppose I could, but I have considered the DC, and therefore the failure rate, on UMD for a Wand to be unacceptably high. And it's a Charisma based Skill, and I my character has a fairly low Charisma.
UnArcaneElection wrote: (you were planning to do this at the early levels anyway). Not UMD. Rangers can use Wands with Ranger Spells even with only 1 level of Ranger, and no UMD check is required. Am I wrong about that?
Think there's still a UMD check if your level don't meet the caster level of the wand or scroll.
Kahel Stormbender wrote: Think there's still a UMD check if your level don't meet the caster level of the wand or scroll. Wand requires no check at all if the spell is on your spell list (even if you don't have a spell list yet like a Paladin/Ranger/Bloodrager). Scroll is more complicated (in that you might need to UMD to meet the ability score requirements) but is otherwise just a straight caster level check if the spell is on your spell list. I have no idea how this interacts with classes that don't have a caster level yet though.
Would have to double check, but I'd swear it was "use character level to determine caster level". Might be thinking 3.5 as well though. I do remember needing a UMD check for a wand if your character level didn't meet it's caster level. Just can't remember off hand if that's D&D 3.5 only, or in Pathfinder as well.
There's a lot of fiddly rules which are slightly different between them. Enough that when I go back to play 3.5 I get tripped up by some things.
I was just looking through d20pfsrd.com and found something under the section Using Magic Items.
d20pfsrd.com, Magic Items, Using Magic Items wrote: Spell Completion: This is the activation method for scrolls. A scroll is a spell that is mostly finished. The preparation is done for the caster, so no preparation time is needed beforehand as with normal spellcasting. All that's left to do is perform the finishing parts of the spellcasting (the final gestures, words, and so on). To use a spell completion item safely, a character must be of high enough level in the right class to cast the spell already. So,
Kahel Stormbender wrote: Think there's still a UMD check if your level don't meet the caster level of the wand or scroll. That's true for Scrolls.
d20pfsrd.com, Magic Items, Using Magic Items wrote: Spell trigger items can be used by anyone whose class can cast the corresponding spell. This is the case even for a character who can't actually cast spells, such as a 3rd-level paladin. But not for Spell Trigger Items, and wands are Spell Trigger Items.
d20pfsrd.com, Magic Items, Wands wrote: Wands use the spell trigger activation method, As to Caster Level,
Kahel Stormbender wrote: I'd swear it was "use character level to determine caster level". That's true of Staves,
d20pfsrd.com, Magic Items, Staves wrote: Staves use the wielder’s ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves against their spells. Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder can use his caster level when activating the power of the staff if it’s higher than the caster level of the staff. But not of Wands.
d20pfsrd.com, Magic Items, Wands wrote: The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand. Unless the GM specifically creates a Wand with a mind as to the Level and Ability Score of the Caster-Creator, you always suppose the minimums.
I seem to recall there are Wand Feats and Abilities that let you use your caster level instead of the wands' creators'.
|
1 person marked this as a favorite.
|
Bill Dunn wrote: swoosh wrote: I've been mulling over a few ideas for switch hitting characters lately and I've been kind of stunned at how incredibly hard it is to build someone who can use two or more weapon styles effectively.
Even with access to fighter bonus feats or ranger styles or something similar it still takes quite a while to get online and you still end up hitting some sort of roadblock eventually. With a rogue or investigator or cavalier or barbarian or swashbuckler or something else I've decided it's more or less a lost cause to even try.
This seems really weird, especially given how common the concept of someone with two or more fighting styles is in fiction.
It really seems unnecessary.
Is this a question about being "effective" or "optimized"? I don't find it that hard to be effective with a couple of styles, but lots of people have differing definitions of effective. Swashbuckler turns into a complete joke if he isn't using a one handed or light piercing weapon. And there isn't a way around it.
Not an issue in practice but thematically its a bit silly how the badass high level Swashbuckler drops to 1d8 damage with non-piercing weapons.
Recent threads in General Discussion
|
