Spell casting while polymorphed?

[Surtyr]

SO Natural spell only applies to those with wild shaping.

So what are the rules for a caster that uses a form spell (take your pick of Beast shape, giant form, undead anatomy, monstrous physique, dragon form, alter self, etc.) to still be able to cast a spell in that form?

Does the form have to speak a language? What appendages allow it to satisfy the gesturing part of a spell? If material components are needed, do they have to be in a polymorphic pouch? Will certain magic items effects (like ring of eloquence help with satisfying this requirement)?

I would imagine that humanoid bipeds with language would work here. Also dragons since they are spell casters? What about other non bipeds that have language and have spell like abilities in their real (non polymorphed) forms? What about elementals?

Thanks for the input. I have played a Druid for a longtime and Natural spell takes the worry out of such situations.

[Illeist]

CRB wrote:

While in such a form [animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin], you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion).

So undead anatomy, monstrous physique, and alter self don't hinder your spellcasting. If you use another spell, you can use verbal components if the form can speak and somatic and material components if it has a method of delicate manipulation (eg, opposable thumbs).

[BigNorseWolf]

Ring of eloquence will get you verbal components.

Or you could just play a pscyhic caster. They bypass the whole components thing.

[RealAlchemy]

Silent Spell, Eschew Materials, and start going to town.

[Surtyr]

Thank you all.

[FLite]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ring of eloquence will get you verbal components.

Or you could just play a pscyhic caster. They bypass the whole components thing.

Well except material components.

[BigNorseWolf]

Jared Thaler wrote:

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ring of eloquence will get you verbal components.

Or you could just play a pscyhic caster. They bypass the whole components thing.

Well except material components.

Expensive ones. The bat guano is fine.

Therefore, psychic spells never have verbal or somatic components, and have only expensive material components

[Azothath]

In the polymorph rules it states that AFTER gear is absorbed into the new form that spellcasting is not possible. I firmly believe that the text assumes that the component pouch or material components on the caster are absorbed and thus not available. A rare GM may interpret this one line as banning spellcasting.

Historically most spellcasters just take off what they don't want absorbed, cast the spell, and then put the set aside items back on. It takes time.

[Surtyr]

So to sum up so far.

If we are not psychic caster

Verbal: Language or Ring of Eloquence. WIld speech not an option unless Druid 6 and wild shape . Use Meridian belt to switch out function of rings if necessary.

Material: Eschew Materials or polymorphic pouch

Somatic. Still spell (by Rod in Poly Pouch or feat), or opposing thumbs.

Thanks all.

[andreww]

A rod in a polymorphic pouch will not help you. Rods need to be wielded in order to function. Its the same with material components.

If the form you are in lacks the means to manipulate them, say a bear, then you aren't making use of them. Expect table variation on whether or not things like birds can do so using their talons. Something like an ape may be viable.

[andreww]

On language silent spell is an option. Deaf curse Oracles apply silent spell for free to all of their spells.

[Surtyr]

Ok adjusting

If we are not psychic caster

Verbal: Language or Ring of Eloquence. WIld speech not an option unless Druid 6 and wild shape . Use Meridian belt to switch out function of rings if necessary.

Material: Eschew Materials

Somatic. Still spell or opposing thumbs.

Trait Magical Lineage to Still spell one spell for no bump in level.

Any additional help by Trait, Feat, Spell, or magic item?

[andreww]

There is another trait that can reduce the metamagic cost of a level 3 or lower spell by 1 although I cannot recall its name.

Also bear in mind still spell is only needed for spells with an S component, plenty are verbal only.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Stephen Ross wrote:

In the polymorph rules it states that AFTER gear is absorbed into the new form that spellcasting is not possible. I firmly believe that the text assumes that the component pouch or material components on the caster are absorbed and thus not available. A rare GM may interpret this one line as banning spellcasting.

Historically most spellcasters just take off what they don't want absorbed, cast the spell, and then put the set aside items back on. It takes time.

This is why dragon form is an excellent choice for sorcerers, or wizards willing to make the feat expenditure in Eschew Material Components.

[Chess Pwn]

The arcane exploit Shift Caster lets you have Natural Spell for polymorph spells.

[Unbegreiflich]

Magic, giving voice to the voiceless since before the dawn of man. "You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else. You can speak in any language you know. With respect to such voices and sounds, anyone who hears the sound and rolls a successful save recognizes it as illusory (but still hears it)."

[Surtyr]

So ventriloquism 1st level (1 min/level ) for speech or Tongues (3rd level) 10 min per level. Or Ring slot for Ring of eloquence

[Surtyr]

Any spells or items that would manage the prerequisite for Somatic component?

[BigNorseWolf]

I would not rely on ventriloquism. The sounds are illusionary, and aren't you talking, they're a spell talking. I'd say they wouldn't work (and so would most others i think)

You probably want Beastspeak which will do that.

[Surtyr]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

I would not rely on ventriloquism. The sounds are illusionary, and aren't you talking, they're a spell talking. I'd say they wouldn't work (and so would most others i think)

You probably want Beastspeak which will do that.

Thanks Wolf!

I think that spell is only if you are an animal though.

[Ravingdork]

The elemental body spells let you cast spells as well, since all elementals are capable of speech and can have caster-compatible limbs.

[Azothath]

I'd have to agree that the Ring of Eloquence $3500 would give you the clear path for any polymorphed/wildshaped forms of your person and allow verbal components.
Ventriloquism would work if you just need to create speech that someone can understand. You might get lucky with your GM for spellcasting, check on how they treated the sleeves of many garments.

Polymorph spells generally do not change your type (so a change from 3.5). They generally just add bonuses and take away some piddling abilities that spell casting requires (lol). You might need to speak the appropriate elemental language in an elemental form depending on your GM. So really it becomes a challenge of lesser means to get the job done (verbal components).

Feats are worth about $10000 so I don't think feats are a cost effective approach where GP are the, ahem, gold standard.

I think Shadow Projection (necromancy) is still the most challenging in this regards under PFS. Without ghost touch I don't think the ring would work as it is left behind on your body.

Somatic components are usually the easiest as you just have to be able to make "fine movements". For animal forms this IS an issue. Thumbs aren't a requirement although some people believe they are. It just makes it an easy "yes" and is enforced by choices of wand usage for familiars in PFS.

Material components are usually absorbed. Personally I'd just keep them in a HHaversack and don the HH/spell comp pouch after polymorphing. No cost and just 2 to 3 rounds of actions lost. So no GP cost just time.

The main thrust of power via polymorphing relies on multiple attacks to offset the lower BABs of casters. I think it's similar to the TWF issue. So it takes careful choices of forms, feats and tricks to get some size and strength. Natural attack bonuses are not as cheap as weapon bonuses.
Overall Magic Jar might be as effective as the attackers become disposable.

If you are just using polymorphing for stealth/movement I think the spells are far more effective for that.

Just my thoughts on the topic in general.

[Diego Rossi]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

Ring of eloquence will get you verbal components.

Or you could just play a pscyhic caster. They bypass the whole components thing.

Thanks, I hadn't ever noticed that. I have a player that will be very interested in it.

[Diego Rossi]

Ventriloquism wrote:

You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else.

You need to be able to make the sound, so if you are polymorphed into something that can't speak ventriloquism don't give the ability to speak.

[Snowlilly]

Illeist wrote:

While in such a form [animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin], you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat),

Or you pick up/are handed a spell component pouch after you polymorph.

[Azothath]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Ventriloquism wrote:

You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else.

You need to be able to make the sound, so if you are polymorphed into something that can't speak ventriloquism don't give the ability to speak.

that is a GM call.

The second line of Ventriloquism is a separate effect that does not rely on the caster being able to make any sound (thus the dummy can talk without the caster moving his lips via Ventriloquism spell, which IS what the spell models). You can also interpret it as the caster making some type of sound and the spell transforming it into speech in a language the caster could speak. The spell is an illusion but targets still hear the words EVEN if they make the save and know it's an illusion... lol...

[Diego Rossi]

Azothath wrote:

Diego Rossi wrote:

Ventriloquism wrote:

You can make your voice (or any sound that you can normally make vocally) seem to issue from someplace else.

You need to be able to make the sound, so if you are polymorphed into something that can't speak ventriloquism don't give the ability to speak.

that is a GM call.

The second line of Ventriloquism is a separate effect that does not rely on the caster being able to make any sound (thus the dummy can talk without the caster moving his lips via Ventriloquism spell, which IS what the spell models). You can also interpret it as the caster making some type of sound and the spell transforming it into speech in a language the caster could speak. The spell is an illusion but targets still hear the words EVEN if they make the save and know it's an illusion... lol...

Even accepting your interpretation that you can have the spell speak for you, here is the text for Verbal Verbal components:

PRD wrote:

Verbal (V): A verbal component is a spoken incantation. To provide a verbal component, you must be able to speak in a strong voice. A silence spell or a gag spoils the incantation (and thus the spell). A spellcaster who has been deafened has a 20% chance of spoiling any spell with a verbal component that he tries to cast.

The requirement if for you to be able to speak in a strong voice. If you are relying on a external effect speaking for you, you are not fulfilling that requirement.