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You missed the important point: drawing arrows is limited by number of attacks.
Using the idea of throwing the shields as a free action rather than an attack would not be limited thusly.
There is the important difference.
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If I ever bring such a character to the table, I will present a character that I invested a piece of mundane special equipment a 5000gp magic item occupying a belt slot I would totally would have occupied with something else, and a Feat. How many low-damage, Free Action attacks does he think is fair to buy at that price? Honestly, I think a couple of bonus attacks is fair. And I think it would be fair to be allowed to use the Free Action loop in conjunction with other Feats, such as making Ranged Attacks of Opportunity via Snap Shot Feats, for example.
In all honesty, my reaction in PFS would be a simple "I'm sorry, it really doesn't work that way. I know there is ambiguity but that is my ruling. You can either play your character without the ability to throw shields as a free action or you can play another character. I've got lots of pregens if you don't have another in tier"
Limiting it by number of free actions doesn't work for the reasons that people have given so I essentially have the choice of allowing it or forbidding it in its entirety.
The actual best tool in the GM toolbox against "RAW throwings shield" players is this line:
You are being disruptive. Stop it, or you will have to leave this table.
That includes PFS games.
Interesting piece of equipment. I agree it appears not to be written the way it was intended to work. Just like typos that exist in PFS Pregen characters. They have to be run the way they are published even though "everyone knows" doing so runs against established rules.
I believe most people would agree that 'loosing and readying to throw' is the proper interpretation of RAI, although it is pretty clear that the text includes throwing. Still, who enforces Jay Walking restrictions on an average day?
What I'm more curious about is the listed damage. Must it be thrown to get this damage? Can it be wielded in melee? Is doing so equivalent to a Shield Bash? And does the Bashing property translate over?
Even if you rule that fighting melee with it (performing a bash) counts as an improvised weapon, combining the Bashing property with Catch Off-Guard and Improvised Weapon Mastery would be quite a thing. Your d6 (20/x2) would become a 3d6 (19-20/x2)...all at no penalty on attacks.
Then for kicks, make it a Large shield that requires both hands to wield in melee at a -2 penalty that ups the base damage to 4d6 + 1.5 STR.
FAQed so we can get this clarified.
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I'm FAQ number 42.
I win!
As a PFS GM, you aren't supposed to do that. There isn't ambiguity about the ability to throw throwing shields as a Free Action. The description of Throwing Shields as a weapon is clear. It's not unambiguous: it's just disliked. It might even be unpopular. But minorities are supposed to enjoy the benefits of the rules same as everyone else.
The rule certainly is ambiguous. Most GMs and Players I know read it to mean you can unclasp the shield strap and throw it one side as a free action. Not make an attack with it as a free action.
You obviously feel it can be used to make an attack for free (despite there not being any other examples of free action Attacks that don't require at least a move action linked to them). I don't think you do have RAW justification as the text doesn't mention attacking.
Let's just agree that it is ambiguous.
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As a PFS GM, you aren't supposed to do that.
Yes, they are.
There isn't ambiguity about the ability to throw throwing shields as a Free Action. The description of Throwing Shields as a weapon is clear. It's not unambiguous: it's just disliked. It might even be unpopular. But minorities are supposed to enjoy the benefits of the rules same as everyone else.
There is a clear rule that you cannot make more than one attack per round unless you take a full attack action. There is a clear rule that a single attack is a standard action.
The text about unclasping and throwing a shield as a free action doesn't supercede those attack rules. Ergo, it can either be taken to be talking about the action required prior to making an attack, or to a non-attack action.
"Most GMs and Players" you know are grasping at straws. I assert that the description of throwing a Throwing weapon in the Weapons description is referring to Throwing it as a weapon, and you are saying I am making an assumption? I guess, but it is really obviously a bigger assumption otherwise.
I use this phrase to be clear this is an anecdotal point amongst and I am not claiming to represent the pathfinder community as a whole. That isn't clutching at straws - it is being honest.
Only my strawman thinks that. A Throwing Shield is an Exotic Weapon. You need to spend a Feat to use it effectively. That is not free. It costs a Feat.
To be clear, I mean without spending a swift, move or standard action. I appreicate you claim it is "free" in time terms not resource terms.
I "obviously feel" that if I spend 2 Feats, 5000gp, and a Belt Slot, I should get something good for that.
You do get something good, you can repeatedly throw a shield as you attack. Something that would normaly be limited to once per turn as a move and standard action. It can now be done with a standard action and a free action, or multiple times with a full attack action depending on your BAB. Sounds pretty fair to me. Your cost argument has merit, but even throwing the shield once per round for free is implausible for an EWP feat and a 50gp item.
Like Panther Style Feats? At the cost of 4 Feats and a Wisdom of 16, you can use Panther Claw to gain 3 Free Action attacks per round as part of your regular Move.
As part of a move action being the relevent part to this discussion not free. I did say "at least a move action"
Hamatula Strike lets you make any number of free make any number of free Grapple Attacks that don't even count as Free Actions on top of any attack with a Piercing Weapon. That only costs 1 Feat.
Hamatula Strike relies on you having already made an attack action.
White Hair and Grab do in fact cost Free Actions to activate their abilities, but these cost much less.
White hair requires you to make an attack action.
If an ability amends an already existing action it requires a lot less suspension of disbelief than when a feat purports to allow you to make attacks without any meaningful expenditure of time. I have asked a few times for an example and no one has provided an example. You have given three examples of abilities that all require move actions or standard actions to activate.
I find it implausible that a character can make attacks for free. Until it is clarified that the 50gp throwing shield lets you make free attacks I will continue to interpret that the item lets you unclasp and throw only - and not attack without the appropriate action.
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As a PFS GM, you aren't supposed to do that. There isn't ambiguity about the ability to throw throwing shields as a Free Action. The description of Throwing Shields as a weapon is clear. It's not unambiguous: it's just disliked. It might even be unpopular. But minorities are supposed to enjoy the benefits of the rules same as everyone else.
If I ever bring such a character to the table, I will present a character that I invested a piece of mundane special equipment a 5000gp magic item occupying a belt slot I would totally would have occupied with something else, and a Feat. How many low-damage, Free Action attacks does he think is fair to buy at that price? Honestly, I think a couple of bonus attacks is fair. And I think it would be fair to be allowed to use the Free Action loop in conjunction with other Feats, such as making Ranged Attacks of Opportunity via Snap Shot Feats, for example.In all honesty, my reaction in PFS would be a simple "I'm sorry, it really doesn't work that way. I know there is ambiguity but that is my ruling. You can either play your character without the ability to throw shields as a free action or you can play another character. I've got lots of pregens if you don't have another in tier"
Limiting it by number of free actions doesn't work for the reasons that people have given so I essentially have the choice of allowing it or forbidding it in its entirety.
So...
We actually had to talk a local youngster out of trying this interpretation in the area where I used to play PFS. He was excited about finding this loophole and WAS going to build a character around QuickDraw/Blinkback for infinite attacks. The VC, two VLs, and at least a dozen other stars worth of GMs all told him the same thing: "It's a fun thought exercise but none of us are going to allow you to do that. You can throw the shield as many times as you have attacks in a round."Please don't assume that because there is a flaw in the rules a player is going to insist that he be allowed to exploit it. I've never seen a PFS player throw a tantrum because he wasn't allowed to use what was obviously a loophole. We get into these discussions on the messageboards but it would take true obstinance to actually try to force that reading through in a way all the GMs are agreeing is impossible. There's a huge difference between ambiguous or confusing text and text that can be read in a way to make something truly broken.
Having said that; yes the item needs a cleanup. But if anyone is trying to insist that the item - intentionally or otherwise - gives you infinite attacks, that's just arguing for the sake of arguing.
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As a PFS GM, you aren't supposed to do that. There isn't ambiguity about the ability to throw throwing shields as a Free Action. The description of Throwing Shields as a weapon is clear. It's not unambiguous: it's just disliked. It might even be unpopular. But minorities are supposed to enjoy the benefits of the rules same as everyone else.
If I ever bring such a character to the table, I will present a character that I invested a piece of mundane special equipment a 5000gp magic item occupying a belt slot I would totally would have occupied with something else, and a Feat. How many low-damage, Free Action attacks does he think is fair to buy at that price? Honestly, I think a couple of bonus attacks is fair. And I think it would be fair to be allowed to use the Free Action loop in conjunction with other Feats, such as making Ranged Attacks of Opportunity via Snap Shot Feats, for example.In all honesty, my reaction in PFS would be a simple "I'm sorry, it really doesn't work that way. I know there is ambiguity but that is my ruling. You can either play your character without the ability to throw shields as a free action or you can play another character. I've got lots of pregens if you don't have another in tier"
Limiting it by number of free actions doesn't work for the reasons that people have given so I essentially have the choice of allowing it or forbidding it in its entirety.
Freely throwing the shield? none.
Making throw attacks? Plenty.
Popping in to say that we're at 43 FAQ counts so far. Keep it up everyone; hopefully we'll get to the point where a response is given, and/or a FAQ/Errata if needed.
Remember to show your friends this thread. If they feel that a proper and official/consistent answer should be presented, they should proceed to hit the FAQ button on the OP.
The idea of "show your friends" kind of makes me laugh since:
- Hopefully unlike us our friends have something better to do
- I kind of imagine our friends deciding that trying to perform an infinite attack loop in PFS sounds like a fun way to "protest" a slightly ambiguous rule
- It makes me think that there are probably other areas of the game which could use Paizo's attention more than this (if only because the anecdotal "most DMs" already seem ready, willing, and able to block the likely unintended free action attacks)
That said, I already clicked FAQ.
[casts Raise Thread]
If anyone wants clarifications regarding the Throwing Shield, and you've seen/participated in this thread, please hit the FAQ button on the opening post here so we can get a FAQ explaining how exactly Throwing Shields work.
Official Rules Response
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Throwing Shield: The throwing shield says that it has special straps “that allow you to unclasp and throw it as a free action.” It seems likely that “unclasp and throw” means “unclasp in order to throw” but it could also mean “unclasp and additionally throw” which could give a character any number of extra attacks. Which interpretation is correct?
Throwing shield’s wording means you can unclasp as a free action in order to throw it. The wording will be updated to disambiguate in the next errata.
FAQ Friday is back!
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Throwing Shield: The throwing shield says that it has special straps “that allow you to unclasp and throw it as a free action.” It seems likely that “unclasp and throw” means “unclasp in order to throw” but it could also mean “unclasp and additionally throw” which could give a character any number of extra attacks. Which interpretation is correct?
Throwing shield’s wording means you can unclasp as a free action in order to throw it. The wording will be updated to disambiguate in the next errata.
Thanks for the answer, PDT.
**EDIT** A quick follow-up question that could be helpful for newer players.
If I'm not proficient in a Throwing Shield, do I suffer penalties for making shield bashes, assuming it's an eligible shield to bash with, or only with throwing it? (As an attack, of course.)