Oh Marvel, you really are terrible now.

[thejeff]

KestrelZ wrote:

Ah, the great comic book struggle - the fight between creative license and conserving a franchise character.

Comic companies are loathe to rock the boat with a successful franchise. Ben Parker will stay dead, even if the rest of the Marvel universe treats death like a revolving door. Comic writers wish to go wherever they want, sometimes leading to great storylines, and sometimes crashing to the ground. The only time such storylines stick is when fans love it, or when there is some business plan by the comic owners to make it stick (such as making sure Wolverine stays dead in the comics until the cinematic rights to the character reverts to Marvel/Disney).

Judging by fan reaction, the Cap storyline won't stick. It would make a great running joke for a Bob, agent of hydra storyline.

Or again, going by decades of history, the Cap storyline is meant to be exactly that, a storyline. It's not going to be a permanent change, regardless of fan reaction. And regardless of how the press releases make it seem.

That said, it is still likely to have long term effects on the world. We don't know what they will be yet, other than they won't include "Steve Rogers has always been a secret villain."

[Norman Osborne]

KestrelZ wrote:

The only time such storylines stick is when fans love it, or when there is some business plan by the comic owners to make it stick

I'm just wondering which one you think Spider-Man: One More Day is.

[Sundakan]

Didn't they undo that?

[Matthew Morris]

Sundakan wrote:

Didn't they undo that?

OMD? No, but then they went and shoved more confusion in with the Deadpool/Spiderman book of late...

[thejeff]

One More Day's the opposite example. It's an undoing itself. Returning Spider-man back to the old status quo.

Saves Aunt May, gets rid of the marriage, gives him his secret id back.
It's not a storyline to be reversed, it's a ploy to undo one.

[Thomas Seitz]

It's still something I wish that hadn't happened. Mostly because I enjoy seeing MC2u stuff with May Parker.

[Eric Hinkle]

This may be a bit OT, but talking some of the rather tasteless storylines Marvel has done and attempted, does anyone else remember the time (I believe back in the 90's) when someone at Marvel wanted to do a story in which Uncle Ben turned out to be a pedophile?

Yes, really, and all of Spidey's happy memories of him would turn out to be Stockholm Syndrome. I'm just glad that one never got printed. Apparently one of the editors at Marvel killed it immediately.

[Thomas Seitz]

Eric,

Never came across THAT one no.

[Eric Hinkle]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Eric,

Never came across THAT one no.

I heard about it quite a few years ago online at (I think) the Hero Games forums. Apparently they did a story in Spidey about a kid Pete knew getting molested, and it was less then brilliantly handled. Some people complained and then it came out that it could have been a LOT worse.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Hitdice wrote:

Hey, remember when Steve Rogers gave up the mantle of Captain America to become Nomad, The Man Without A Country?

Yes, that's when Marvel all but said that the head of the Secret Empire was Richard Nixon who commits suicide when Rogers exposes him.

[Thomas Seitz]

Drahiliana,

One of the more than few times I wish life would imitate art.

Eric,

I'm glad I missed out on that then...

[Ninja in the Rye]

Eric Hinkle wrote:

This may be a bit OT, but talking some of the rather tasteless storylines Marvel has done and attempted, does anyone else remember the time (I believe back in the 90's) when someone at Marvel wanted to do a story in which Uncle Ben turned out to be a pedophile?

Yes, really, and all of Spidey's happy memories of him would turn out to be Stockholm Syndrome. I'm just glad that one never got printed. Apparently one of the editors at Marvel killed it immediately.

There was no story in the works, it was a very awful and inappropriate attempt at an April Fools joke by Joe Quesada.

[phantom1592]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

It's still something I wish that hadn't happened. Mostly because I enjoy seeing MC2u stuff with May Parker.

MC2U stuff was always an alternate timeline/universe (earth 982) anyway.

Nothing OMD day did has an effect on that universe... and I heard they even brought her back for Spider-verse.

[Thomas Seitz]

Phantom,

Yeah but I wish she was apart of the 616 universe...

Plus MC2u Thunderstrike is cooler than 616's.

Ninja

That cleared that up. Thanks!

[Aberzombie]

Slightly off topic (Marvel, but not Steve Rogers) - saw a preview of the new Electro. Apparently, they changed to a chick.

My first thought was "What happened to the old one?".

My second thought was "Why couldn't they do a redesign on the costume, especially the mask?" Seriously, that mask is silly looking.

[Sundakan]

Heh. Electro chick.

[Callous Jack]

Aberzombie wrote:

My second thought was "Why couldn't they do a redesign on the costume, especially the mask?" Seriously, that mask is silly looking.

I love that mask, it's so bad yet I'd be bummed if they took it away.

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Aberzombie wrote:

Slightly off topic (Marvel, but not Steve Rogers) - saw a preview of the new Electro. Apparently, they changed to a chick.

My first thought was "What happened to the old one?".

My second thought was "Why couldn't they do a redesign on the costume, especially the mask?" Seriously, that mask is silly looking.

Is this Aftershock?

[Aberzombie]

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Aberzombie wrote:

Slightly off topic (Marvel, but not Steve Rogers) - saw a preview of the new Electro. Apparently, they changed to a chick.

My first thought was "What happened to the old one?".

My second thought was "Why couldn't they do a redesign on the costume, especially the mask?" Seriously, that mask is silly looking.

Is this Aftershock?

Maybe so. Although, in the latest Marvel Previews I could have sworn they had her labeled as Electro. Now I have to try and remember to go back and look at it again when I get home this evening.

[phantom1592]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Phantom,

Yeah but I wish she was apart of the 616 universe...

Plus MC2u Thunderstrike is cooler than 616's.

Ninja

That cleared that up. Thanks!

Oh Disagree with Thunderstrike. I loved original Thunderstrike. MC2 COULD have been cool, but he went and internalized all the power. Thunderstrke without the mace... is like Thor not having a hammer.

GOTTA have the mace!! ;)

[Ambrosia Slaad]

Aberzombie wrote:

Ambrosia Slaad wrote:

Aberzombie wrote:

Slightly off topic (Marvel, but not Steve Rogers) - saw a preview of the new Electro. Apparently, they changed to a chick.

My first thought was "What happened to the old one?".

My second thought was "Why couldn't they do a redesign on the costume, especially the mask?" Seriously, that mask is silly looking.

Is this Aftershock?

Maybe so. Although, in the latest Marvel Previews I could have sworn they had her labeled as Electro. Now I have to try and remember to go back and look at it again when I get home this evening.

I think I remember something about Marvel preparing to introduce a new non-Janet Wasp in the mainstream 616. I don't think she was Hope Pym from the old MC2 (with Mayday Parker), but she was Pym's daughter from a different mom. Maybe they are doing a similar legacy thing with Electro? I'm not sure if Electro has had his powers for 18+ years in the MCU to have been able to father a similarly-empowered child.

[Callous Jack]

Unless they folded the MC2 universe into the 616 universe which would be cool. I liked ANext and some of the other concepts they came up with.
Coal Tiger!
Darkdevil!
Revengers!

[thejeff]

Callous Jack wrote:

Unless they folded the MC2 universe into the 616 universe which would be cool. I liked ANext and some of the other concepts they came up with.

Coal Tiger!
Darkdevil!
Revengers!

Blech. People who are children of people who are in the current universe, but not actually those people but different versions of them who presumably don't exist?

Yeah, I know, they've already merged in similar things. Has anyone actually sorted out what Peter and Miles know about each other and what the rest of the non-in-the-know non-superhero world knows about them?

I think I dislike how Marvel handled its reboot more than how DC handled any of its.

As for the new Wasp,

Spoiler:

she's Pym's daughter from his original (pre-Janet/pre-Ant-man) wife.

[Norman Osborne]

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Phantom,

Yeah but I wish she was apart of the 616 universe...

Plus MC2u Thunderstrike is cooler than 616's.

Ninja

That cleared that up. Thanks!

I haven't fully kept up with the aftermath of Secret War, but didn't the entire multiverse collapse into a single universe? If MC2 May still exist, she's in the new 616, right?

[Jaçinto]

Yeah this wont stick. Nothing ever sticks in these comics. If any actual to a change ever happens, something will reset it to factory defaults. Remember when they said the Superior Spider-Man was going to be a permanent change, but then they had to undo it because movie goers want to come in to a comic and see peter parker? Or the time when Peter's parents were alive but then turned out just to be clones? Oh, how about when Jarvis died and later came back, only to be revealed that the one that died was a skrull?

Yes this is stupid, but just wait a bit and Steve will be plain old captain america again and everything will go back to the factory default. Nothing ever really changes in Marvel. They will hand wave this. Nobody in the comics ever grow and change in any way. Stupid stories and then always changing their mind on them is why I can't spend money on comics anymore.

[thejeff]

Jaçinto wrote:

Yeah this wont stick. Nothing ever sticks in these comics. If any actual to a change ever happens, something will reset it to factory defaults. Remember when they said the Superior Spider-Man was going to be a permanent change, but then they had to undo it because movie goers want to come in to a comic and see peter parker? Or the time when Peter's parents were alive but then turned out just to be clones? Oh, how about when Jarvis died and later came back, only to be revealed that the one that died was a skrull?

Yes this is stupid, but just wait a bit and Steve will be plain old captain america again and everything will go back to the factory default. Nothing ever really changes in Marvel. They will hand wave this. Nobody in the comics ever grow and change in any way. Stupid stories and then always changing their mind on them is why I can't spend money on comics anymore.

Except for all the things that actually have changed. Iconic characters will still remain iconic, that much is true.

If they ever actually said the Superior Spider-Man was going to be permanent, they were flat out lying. That was always and obviously a story arc. It had a beginning and an end, built in from the start. The entire point of it was always to show why Peter Parker is Spider-Man and despite Ock's ego and brilliance, he can't take his place.
They didn't undo it because of the movies. They undid it because the story arc demanded it.
I'm not as familiar with the others. Some minor character changes are intended to be permanent at the time and are later reversed because a later writer wants it back the old way. That rarely applies to the most publicized iconic hero changes.

[Callous Jack]

thejeff wrote:

]Blech. People who are children of people who are in the current universe, but not actually those people but different versions of them who presumably don't exist?

C'mon, that's like half the X universe.

[thejeff]

Callous Jack wrote:

thejeff wrote:

]Blech. People who are children of people who are in the current universe, but not actually those people but different versions of them who presumably don't exist?

C'mon, that's like half the X universe.

Fair enough, but at least most of those got there in a vaguely coherent way - there was a storyline where they traveled from their original alternate timeline/possible future to the main universe.

They didn't just in world with their supporting cast and history intact for them, but in open conflict with the rest of the world except we don't talk about it.

Do some people in NYC know about the new Spiderman who replaced the old one while others know the original has always been around and still is? (Granted, they might just think it's two costumes and the same guy, but still.)

[Thomas Seitz]

Norman Osborne wrote:

Thomas Seitz wrote:

Phantom,

Yeah but I wish she was apart of the 616 universe...

Plus MC2u Thunderstrike is cooler than 616's.

Ninja

That cleared that up. Thanks!

I haven't fully kept up with the aftermath of Secret War, but didn't the entire multiverse collapse into a single universe? If MC2 May still exist, she's in the new 616, right?

Nope. Reed fixed the multiverse. Sort of.

Also regarding Electro, he lost his powers thanks to some handy Parker Tech. So no juice for him. No idea who the new Electro is.

Finally, I think MCU2 Thunderstrike internalizing wasn't so much for not having the hammer so much as he IS the hammer.

[Callous Jack]

thejeff wrote:

Callous Jack wrote:

thejeff wrote:

]Blech. People who are children of people who are in the current universe, but not actually those people but different versions of them who presumably don't exist?

C'mon, that's like half the X universe.

Fair enough, but at least most of those got there in a vaguely coherent way - there was a storyline where they traveled from their original alternate timeline/possible future to the main universe.

They didn't just in world with their supporting cast and history intact for them, but in open conflict with the rest of the world except we don't talk about it.

Do some people in NYC know about the new Spiderman who replaced the old one while others know the original has always been around and still is? (Granted, they might just think it's two costumes and the same guy, but still.)

Yep, I totally agree with you, but then that's Marvel these days.

[Matthew Morris]

Actually under Slott, Spiderman is kind of a bad example. Superior Spiderman did cause lasting changes in that Otto left Parker a PHD and a Company, he's not a photographer, or a college student anymore.

The only reset so far is the copy of Otto floating around doesn't know that Otto!prime gave up his life to save the woman he loves.

[thejeff]

Matthew Morris wrote:

Actually under Slott, Spiderman is kind of a bad example. Superior Spiderman did cause lasting changes in that Otto left Parker a PHD and a Company, he's not a photographer, or a college student anymore.

Honestly, that's generally true of most of the examples - the big headline change is reversed, but there are still consequences that persist and play out for years.

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

[Norman Osborne]

Freelance photographer hasn't been Peter's main job for quite a while. He became a teacher way before One More Day.

[Sissyl]

When Spidey retired back in the day, there was eventually a new Spider, Mattie, with different powers, but the same job. She was eventually killed, of course. The related changes ALSO reverse eventually.

[thejeff]

Sissyl wrote:

When Spidey retired back in the day, there was eventually a new Spider, Mattie, with different powers, but the same job. She was eventually killed, of course. The related changes ALSO reverse eventually.

That one I don't remember at all. When was that? Not an alternate reality or something?

Some related changes go away. Some stick around.

Edit: It's not like either universe is exactly the same as it was decades ago.

[Sissyl]

No... But the core assumptions are what remain, everything else flutters forward and back - but the core assumptions always change back if they change. Peter will eventually find himself back at freelance photographing for no money for Daily Bugle.

[Matthew Morris]

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

My dream casting for him? The much underused Jamil Walker Smith or Roger Cross.

[Sundakan]

Christopher Judge could use a new, good role too.

Would be cool to see him replace that doofus Ray on Legends of Tomorrow or something.

[Freehold DM]

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

My dream casting for him? The much underused Jamil Walker Smith or Roger Cross.

I'd rather have him in limbo than have him die to make another hero look good or a villain look dangerous.

I feel much the same about the new Mr. Terrific. But he's living the dream in limbo, dating Power Girl.

Live the dream, man. Live the dream....

I don't view him as DC's Tony Stark. That goes to Hardware for me.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

My dream casting for him? The much underused Jamil Walker Smith or Roger Cross.

Steel isn't DC's Tony Stark, Bruce Wayne is. John Henry Irons has a lot of things going for him, but the fortune of a multi-billionaire isn't one of them.

[Freehold DM]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

My dream casting for him? The much underused Jamil Walker Smith or Roger Cross.

Steel isn't DC's Tony Stark, Bruce Wayne is. John Henry Irons has a lot of things going for him, but the fortune of a multi-billionaire isn't one of them.

Hence, Hardware.

[thejeff]

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

Hard to say. He's had series. He's been on a-list teams. Is it DC's fault he never became an A-Lister or is it that he didn't sell well enough.

Neither DC or Marvel can decide "This character is going to be a big selling fan favorite." They can try to push characters, but there's only so far they can get, if fans don't take to them.

It's really, brutally hard to get a new character to top tier status. I'm not even sure when the last real entry was.

[Freehold DM]

thejeff wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

Hard to say. He's had series. He's been on a-list teams. Is it DC's fault he never became an A-Lister or is it that he didn't sell well enough.

Neither DC or Marvel can decide "This character is going to be a big selling fan favorite." They can try to push characters, but there's only so far they can get, if fans don't take to them.

It's really, brutally hard to get a new character to top tier status. I'm not even sure when the last real entry was.

As stated before, DC has a real problem with giving new characters a chance, as do their fans.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Freehold DM wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

Hard to say. He's had series. He's been on a-list teams. Is it DC's fault he never became an A-Lister or is it that he didn't sell well enough.

Neither DC or Marvel can decide "This character is going to be a big selling fan favorite." They can try to push characters, but there's only so far they can get, if fans don't take to them.

It's really, brutally hard to get a new character to top tier status. I'm not even sure when the last real entry was.

As stated before, DC has a real problem with giving new characters a chance, as do their fans.

I also suspect the race element plays a factor as well.

[Hitdice]

Why's everyone talking like Steel was never made into a movie? No, seriously.

[thejeff]

Freehold DM wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

Hard to say. He's had series. He's been on a-list teams. Is it DC's fault he never became an A-Lister or is it that he didn't sell well enough.

Neither DC or Marvel can decide "This character is going to be a big selling fan favorite." They can try to push characters, but there's only so far they can get, if fans don't take to them.

It's really, brutally hard to get a new character to top tier status. I'm not even sure when the last real entry was.

As stated before, DC has a real problem with giving new characters a chance, as do their fans.

As does Marvel. As do comic fans in general.

Steel got his own series for something like 4 years, back when he was introduced. He's been in the JLA and some other places. How much are they supposed to push him.
Keep bringing him back and giving him new titles, when the old ones haven't sold well enough to stay alive.

[thejeff]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

Hard to say. He's had series. He's been on a-list teams. Is it DC's fault he never became an A-Lister or is it that he didn't sell well enough.

Neither DC or Marvel can decide "This character is going to be a big selling fan favorite." They can try to push characters, but there's only so far they can get, if fans don't take to them.

It's really, brutally hard to get a new character to top tier status. I'm not even sure when the last real entry was.

As stated before, DC has a real problem with giving new characters a chance, as do their fans.

I also suspect the race element plays a factor as well.

It's certainly possible. For both fans and publishers. But how much more do you want him pushed?

Like Hitdice said, he got a movie. That's more than the vast majority of superheroes got. At least up to the last few years.

I'll say it again, creating a new A-List superhero is really hard. There really are only a handful who've broken that barrier in decades.

[Freehold DM]

Hitdice wrote:

Why's everyone talking like Steel was never made into a movie? No, seriously.

I don't know what you're talking about.

[Freehold DM]

thejeff wrote:

Freehold DM wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Matthew Morris wrote:

thejeff wrote:

Superman came back to life, of course, but we also got Steel and a new Superboy out of the deal.

Oh don't get me started about Steel.

Steel *should* be an A lister. I mean you have a guy who did the whole Tony Stark thing, Inventor, self made hero, etc, along with the best of Rhodey (physically fit, athlete, capable hand to hand combatant.) This guy should be put out front and center as a 'new hero' and he's relegated to second place. He's also a family man, community oriented etc...

but he sits in limbo.

So here's Dc's Tony Stark, and they don't use him.

Hard to say. He's had series. He's been on a-list teams. Is it DC's fault he never became an A-Lister or is it that he didn't sell well enough.

Neither DC or Marvel can decide "This character is going to be a big selling fan favorite." They can try to push characters, but there's only so far they can get, if fans don't take to them.

It's really, brutally hard to get a new character to top tier status. I'm not even sure when the last real entry was.

As stated before, DC has a real problem with giving new characters a chance, as do their fans.

As does Marvel. As do comic fans in general.

Steel got his own series for something like 4 years, back when he was introduced. He's been in the JLA and some other places. How much are they supposed to push him.
Keep bringing him back and giving him new titles, when the old ones haven't sold well enough to stay alive.

Marvel has done considerably better with non-white characters through their history than DC has. I'd also say Marvel has less of a problem with limited series to give fans a chance to warm up to a new character than DC does. I think race plays a role here, but not as large a role as some might think.

[Jaçinto]

What ever happened with that storyline where Dr doom became god and fixed everything, including erasing one more day?