Anybody have suggestions on how to fit a vigilante character into a typical campaign? (For example, an Adventure Path).
It seems that the class needs to be in an urban setting with opportunities for social interaction role playing.
You're pretty much spot on. That's why the class is in a book called Ultimate Intrigue. It's basically for creating characters like Batman,or the Shadow and running them in appropriate adventures in a Gotham like setting.
There really is no place for this in a typical dungeon crawl, nor are the AP's really suited to this kind of character.
Let me correct myself. A group of these characters would be perfect for Hell's Rebels. Or a campaign set in Galt.
My suggestion: Don't. It doesn't fit well at all in general campaigns, most APs, or most PFS scenarios.
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Really, the biggest problem I have with the vigilante for things like that is that if it didn't have unique and fun things like vigilante talents, I'd be fine just scrapping it. But there's really cool things in there that are just waiting to be touched upon mechanically, so I want to be able to force it into things.
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Uh...I think a Vigilante would do fine in several APs. CotCT would obviously be fine, ditto Hell's Rebels or Hell's Vengeance.
Or WotR, or RotRL, or Jade Regent, or Reign of Winter, or Legacy of Fire, or Kingmaker, or Serpent's Skull, or Skull and Shackles. And we're running out of APs I know anything about.
Now, in a lot of those, Renown and the ensuing Talents would be useless, but that's hardly crippling for a Vigilante. You just take the Many Guises and Quick Change stuff, plus Social Graces, and are a master of disguise.
You can choose whether you care about the secret identity thing...if you do, it provides some neat stuff, if you don't, you can ditch it, walk around in your Social Identity whenever you aren't in disguise via Many Guises, Everyman, and the like, and have wonderful social skills plus all your Vigilante abilities the whole time.
Really, the Renown Talents are what limit it in the way described, and they aren't necessary at all.
Now, a strict dungeon crawl with no social stuff of any sort is indeed bad for the Vigilante. But guess what? There are no APs that match that description.
You can fit Vigilante anywhere a Fighter is appropriate. If you dispense with maintaining a secret separate identity, the character is competent in a fight (full BAB, good will save, and even-level bonus combat feats as a baseline) while also being great during social interactions (6+Int skills, tons of class skills, and odd-level social talents). Even if you keep the fiction of two different people, it can be a famous adventurer sending a representative to negotiate on his behalf, a mild-mannered alter-ego that allows him to venture out in public to do shopping while the party is laying low, or a morally lax separate persona that allows a normally upright example of justice to unwind and indulge in some favorite vice.
You could end up having the vigilante be in vigilante mode /all the time/.
And then when the party screws up diplomacy or anything else, you could swap into your social mode as needed, rather than how intrigue games tend to have you in social mode most of the time.
I agree with DMW, QuidEst, and Darche. Actually something similar came up in my Ask Mark thread, so I'll crosspost this observation, which another forumite had the kernel of in a different thread (can't remember who it was) and I expanded on it:
One reason that a fan discovered in another thread, and I expanded on the kernel of the idea that poster had, was the idea that vigilante gives you a perception of being weaker when it has an ability you can't or won't use in your current game than it would if it just had an empty slot instead of having that ability, which while counterintuitive, tends to be true psychologically in general. I know I found myself guilty of it once, when I was thinking about why I didn't buy a gaming magazine that had pagecount for systems I didn't play but was a very good deal even just factoring in the pages I would use. I think it's part of our perception of value, the instinct that: "The cost associated with the final product must be right (in this case, the levels you take in the class being the cost), so if I don't use it all, I'm not getting a good deal"
Council of Thieves seems like it would be the PERFECT AP for a vigilante, and I'm surprised no one's mentioned it. But I agree with Deadmanwalking, a lot of them would fit a vigilante just fine, even if you're not making use of the renown stuff. Plenty of other talents to take.
I'm about to run an Iron Gods campaign with a vigilante in it. Player is probably going to be in vigilante mode a lot of the time, but pop into social mode for information gathering and the like. (The party's probably going to figure out her identity pretty quick since they're traveling around, but no reason why anyone else has to...unless she slips up, of course!)
I can definitely see that coming in handy in
Iadenveigh and especially Starfall. Should give them some neat opportunities with the Technic League.
The important thing that seems to be left out is... what about the rest of the party?
Are you a justice league of costumed adventurers, or is everyone happy with playing the amazingly idiot ball team of Perry, Jim, and Lois? (George Reeves was likely the first actor to develop the trope of winking at the fourth wall.)
The important thing that seems to be left out is... what about the rest of the party?
Are you a justice league of costumed adventurers, or is everyone happy with playing the amazingly idiot ball team of Perry, Jim, and Lois? (George Reeves was likely the first actor to develop the trope of winking at the fourth wall.)
I haven't looked much into the class, but doesn't it focus a lot on secret and double identities?
The obvious problem there is that this game works with parties. Seeing Bruce wayne hanging out with the justice league a lot and not seeing batman at the same time seems like it would raise questions. How useful are those mechanics when the other party members have no way to engage with the mechanics or keep up with them? At least without specialized builds (such as kitsune with realistic likeness)
The important thing that seems to be left out is... what about the rest of the party?
Are you a justice league of costumed adventurers, or is everyone happy with playing the amazingly idiot ball team of Perry, Jim, and Lois? (George Reeves was likely the first actor to develop the trope of winking at the fourth wall.)
You mean will the rest of the party know the vigilante's secret identity? I don't know. It can go either way on that. I guess if the vigilante is in "hero" for most of the adventure, the rest of the party may not know his alter ego.
The important thing that seems to be left out is... what about the rest of the party?
Are you a justice league of costumed adventurers, or is everyone happy with playing the amazingly idiot ball team of Perry, Jim, and Lois? (George Reeves was likely the first actor to develop the trope of winking at the fourth wall.)
I haven't looked much into the class, but doesn't it focus a lot on secret and double identities?
The obvious problem there is that this game works with parties. Seeing Bruce wayne hanging out with the justice league a lot and not seeing batman at the same time seems like it would raise questions. How useful are those mechanics when the other party members have no way to engage with the mechanics or keep up with them? At least without specialized builds (such as kitsune with realistic likeness)
The weird thing about the Vigilante is that the social talents are pretty so-so, while the actual Vigilante talents are pretty decent, they're more or less made to keep up with the Fighter and Rogue- and in the Fighter spec, as pointed out, you have a lot more skills you can use. You could easily play the spec as a full time Vigilante Identity. If you could survive a dungeon as a Fighter or Rogue, you should be ok as a Vigilante.
Then as far as the social identities go, they're there if you need them. I'm not 100% sure about this, but I don't think that the social perks actually go away if you're connected with your alter ego, you just can't use it to hide and be sneaky- you lose the knowledge check/scrying protection too. But as far as I know there's nothing stopping you from turning into Tony Stark, even though everyone knows Tony Stark is Iron Man, and taking advantage of Social Grace to get +4 to a few INT/WIS/CHA based skills that you can pick (except Perception and UMD). This includes Survival, Knowledge Dungeoneering, Heal, and probably a few other skills that can be used in dungeon crawling environments. And the Disguise tree is specifically noted to be independent of either Social and Vigilante identities, so you can do a lot with that tree even if the secret gets out.
Another point worth bringing up- in the comic books that clearly inspired the class, supporting characters tend to be amazingly dense with putting two and two together. Daredevil shows up to help Murdock and Nelson Law Offices again and again (though somehow Matt is never present, HMMM), Peter Parker is always on the scene when Spider Man is around to get pictures, and the whole "no one notices Superman because he wears glasses" thing is legendary. If you have a DM with a sense of humor, it shouldn't be hard to invent a terrible excuse that is full of holes to explain why both identities are always surrounded by a party, and it should fly, because Super Heroes.
the whole "no one notices Superman because he wears glasses" thing is legendary.
I like to view that as how to use the disguise skill in ways other than just putting on a costume.
Some of the explanations I've seen basically boil it down to the fact that Clark has exceedingly different mannerisms- slight stoop, slouched shoulders, passive tone of voice, etc. Not the stance one would expect from someone that could benchpress the entire building. So he eventually boils it down to "Don't you look like George Clooney?" with the facial features, which he can play down with the glasses.
That and the fact that he vibrates his face when people take his picture, so that people can't just compare the still pictures.
The important thing that seems to be left out is... what about the rest of the party?
Are you a justice league of costumed adventurers, or is everyone happy with playing the amazingly idiot ball team of Perry, Jim, and Lois? (George Reeves was likely the first actor to develop the trope of winking at the fourth wall.)
It wouldn't be much different from say a Rogue who is actually the prince of the land, or is secretly stealing and selling loot behind the parties back. Not their loot, maybe not even loot that was in the dungeon, but loot from a different place.
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the whole "no one notices Superman because he wears glasses" thing is legendary.I like to view that as how to use the disguise skill in ways other than just putting on a costume.
Some of the explanations I've seen basically boil it down to the fact that Clark has exceedingly different mannerisms- slight stoop, slouched shoulders, passive tone of voice, etc. Not the stance one would expect from someone that could benchpress the entire building. So he eventually boils it down to "Don't you look like George Clooney?" with the facial features, which he can play down with the glasses.
That and the fact that he vibrates his face when people take his picture, so that people can't just compare the still pictures.
There was a comedy skit (I don't remember where) that revealed to Superman's shock that he had never fooled anybody. They just respected him so much that they just went along with not mentioning Superman when he was Clark Kent to give him a sense of privacy. LOL
Seriously though, I think his disguise is somewhat believable because it sort of happened to me. While I was away at vacation, I shaved my beard, got a haircut, starting wearing contacts, and dropped a few pounds. When I came back to work, the security guard and co-workers didn't recognize me.
Personally, I don't see an issue with ignoring the social identity. It's there if you need another face, but otherwise why not spend all your time as Batman? That's how most Justice League things work anyways. Bruce Wayne comes up in like one episode where they need a social funtion and then poof bye.
I'll chime in with what everyone else has said - even if you ignore the social persona entirely, there's a fair few neat combat bits they get. In fact, the first thing that crossed my mind upon reading the class was
The avenger specialization builds out much like a fighter who's traded armor and weapon training for better skills and out-of-combat usefulness. The stalker builds out a lot like a rogue with an emphasis on social skills. Both have access to some cool combat tricks that no other class has.
And that's without taking into account that you can have essentially a whole unknown person on hand when a situation arrives where you need someone unfamiliar to gather information, fence goods, plant rumors...and I've seen those things come up plenty even in dungeon-heavy adventures.
In short...yes, to take absolutely full advantage of everything, especially the renown mechanic and the protections of the dual identity, it helps to have a very social adventure. But even in adventures that don't feature intrigue heavily, the vigilante's far from useless.
The mechanics behind the specializations of the vigilante are solid, much better than the play test.
Very rarely are players of the class going to be upset about party members knowing their identity, and as a result you become great at out of combat stuff while still being pretty good at combat. You get a lot of great, nonmagical out of combat abilities which vary from being the most useful scouting tools ever (Many Guises is gold) to having niche applications (Renown).
Renown is the worst thing in that book, but it is not necessary mandatory.
If you have a player that wants to be a fighter, but is upset about something that isn't damage, have them play an Avenger and encourage them to take Toughness. They will be much happier.
The vigilante does for Social campaigns what a rogue does for trap heavy campaigns. It's a good ability to have in the pocket, in case something happens, but you get enough other stuff that works well that it really ends up not mattering if it doesn't have to.
the whole "no one notices Superman because he wears glasses" thing is legendary.I like to view that as how to use the disguise skill in ways other than just putting on a costume.
Some of the explanations I've seen basically boil it down to the fact that Clark has exceedingly different mannerisms- slight stoop, slouched shoulders, passive tone of voice, etc. Not the stance one would expect from someone that could benchpress the entire building. So he eventually boils it down to "Don't you look like George Clooney?" with the facial features, which he can play down with the glasses.
That and the fact that he vibrates his face when people take his picture, so that people can't just compare the still pictures.
I can say from experience that it's really not hard to disguise yourself. Often if I either cut my hair or do it differently and wear contacts instead of glasses, I am nigh unrecognizable by most people.
I haven't played or run a game with a vigilante character yet, but in looking at it I agree that while perhaps not optimal, it is perfectly playable in a regular campaign. You can have a viable character that will contribute to the group just using your hero identity and powers.
That said, I think if a vigilante is going to be included an a regular dungeon style AP, the player needs to be fully informed (even if it should be obvious) that some of their abilities likely will come up rarely, if at all. It is just good manners to make sure your players understand that sort of thing ahead of time, and aren't surprised or disappointed later.
Of course you could alternatively build in more intrigue stuff into the AP. Even the most dungeony ones I have read have some places where additional hooks and intrigue could be inserted. This is of course a whole lot more difficult and time consuming, and you would have to make sure that not only can the vigilante shine, but the other characters can meaningfully contribute as well.
And once again, if you are going to do this, you should let all of your players know and make sure everyone is good with the idea. If I advertise I'm going to be running the "All Dungeons All The Time Campaign" and then throw in a lot of social interactions and intrigue, some players could end up unhappy.
I can say from experience that it's really not hard to disguise yourself. Often if I either cut my hair or do it differently and wear contacts instead of glasses, I am nigh unrecognizable by most people.
I think most people have sold down wisdom (just look at the current presidential race) and don't have ranks in perception, so really one shouldn't expect disguise to be too difficult.
:)
If anything, the social stuff oughta make "in town" parts of the game a lot easier.
I am guilty of neglecting this part of the game, since shopping and role playing the bargaining system is not something I typically like to play around with, nor force on my players. If you're in a game that doesn't treat "in town" like going to the shop in a video game, then even in adventure or dungeon heavy campaigns, the social identity can be very useful.
Also, why does Social Grace not work in Vigilante Identity? MAAAAAARRRRRRK
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Because wearing a sweaty mask makes it hard to remember how magic/religion/architecture works?
Why would Social Grace work as a Vigilante? It's a social talent for your social identity- I'd go so far as to call it the main draw of being in your social identity, at least for most of your career. Vigilante ID can pick up the more flexible option of inspiration once your level is high enough for it to be useful.
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Just took a look at the vigilante and it should work just fine in a standard dungeon crawler campaign.
It turns out that vigilante is pretty close to being a gestalt fighter/rogue with some really nice abilities that neither fighters nor rogues can get easily.
If you just look at the vigilante identity talents, an avenger vigilante is very similar to a fighter who can get pounce, can use vital strike on AoOs, doesn't need to meet the pre-requisites for Two weapon fighting or Improved Combat Manuever feats, gets a sizable shield bonus to AC when using Power Attack, and doesn't get greater weapon specialization or weapon training (the latter is a big sacrifice but can be mitigated with VMC fighter). If you want to run with a dex based melee attacker, you can also get a pretty big class-based damage bonus that will more than make up for the lack of dex to damage.
Oh, and the vigilante also gets 6 skill points per level and a variety of social talents that may or may not be useful in any given situation.
If you want, you can stay in social identity the entire time, use your vigilante talents without consideration for who knows your secret identity and not suffer any particular ill-effects other than everyone knowing your "secret" identity. Call that the Iron Man approach.
Or you can stay in vigilante identity most of the time and keep the social identity for special occasions.
Either way, there are a few social talents that a vigilante can take to be really good at disguises if he wants do it and that will somewhat mitigate the loss of social identity based bonuses.
This thread is totally worth reading.
I guess one could forsake the vigilante identity, and the class works pretty well, but also has the identity schtick.
You don't have to necessarily dedicate a lot of effort to keeping the social identity and the vigilante identity separate. The vigilante identity is generally better suited for hostile areas like dungeons, with a social identity useful in urban settings. In game, that can translate into "The Grey Knight" or "Oskar The Hooded Warrior" being the vigilante identity that strolls into town openly armed, and when they strip out of their obvious armor they become "Kara the Courtesan" or "Oskar the Tinker" and nobody necessarily connects the two, but it's not really a huge deal if someone does realize it. There's possibility for some subterfuge and infiltration, but the character doesn't fall apart or fail just because the social identity didn't hold up very well.
Honestly, the Vigilante class mechanically stands on its own as a solid combatant without accounting for the social stuff at all, so whether or not you utilize it is really just icing on the cake.
I'm trying to get a group together so I can GM "Zeitgeist: Gears of Revolution." The "Ultimate Intrigue" book feels like it was made for that third party AP. I'm itching for a player to build a Vigilante character; because, I think it would be epic to have one player be outside the RHC for the campaign. Makes for some great moments splitting the party, and the side quest possibilities are juicy. I think you just have to find the right AP, and the Vigilante class could be pretty awesome.
Can't you just... not do anything special and just play the vigilante? Some social talents would be less useful, but that's not really anything new for Pathfinder either. Certainly not enough to justify the class having 'no place' in a traditional campaign like some people upthread are suggesting.
I mean at its core the vigilante is a really solid martial with 6+int skill points and that'll work in pretty much any campaign, social focus or not.