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I can see some GM's occasionally/sparingly going over the clerics spell selection and saying: "This spell not today..." , but choosing the complete list for the day? Bad Idea.
The player will feel diminished, and it's a lot of work for the GM in addition to all his other duties.
I would not play a cleric if the GM insisted on this house-rule
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I think this sounds flavorful and thematic in theory but, for a large number of players, it would just render the cleric class completely unplayable. Basically, even if it is the player that chooses the spells, rather than the GM, this does not mean, from a roleplaying perspective, that this has to represent the cleric character picking its spells a la carte from the spell list. It could still represent boons from his/her god. Does that make sense?
On another note, I think this belongs in the Homebrew/House Rule forum, right?
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This sounds like a miserable idea that no one would enjoy. On the GM side, I find that I have enough work to do already running the game without worrying about what spells the cleric gets. Also, if something doesn't go how the PC wants with his spells why would you want to put yourself in a position to have to take responsibility for it?
On the player side, this is robbing him of a huge amount of agency. The PC knows enough to ask the gods for the spells he thinks he'll need and assuming he's a good servant of the gods, the gods grant his request.
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Unique and flavorful makes a poor substitute for fun.
This honestly sounds like a recipe for disaster.
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If you want the GM/deity to supply guidance as to what spells to take, give the cleric Guiding Vellum or some spiffied-up home version thereof. (But not too spiffied up---it becomes a lot of work for the GM very quickly.)
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Only if the GM also agreed to roll the dice for me. And play the character. And I got to stay home and do something else.
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The guidance from their deity is represented by Domain spells already. If you want more guidance just grant an occasional "nudge" towards certain spells.
I wouldn't bother, too much work for no payoff.
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I would not play a cleric if the GM insisted on this house-rule
I would not play a GM if the player insisted on this house-rule.
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I rarely play a GM anyway. I know it's controversial, but I've always thought that class was OP.
I think it would be really unique and flavorful if the GM granted a cleric his or her spells every day instead of the player choosing themself. Maybe the cleric would have a "standard" loadout that the player could help choose and would have some variations based on the deity's predictions for the day, for example if a fight was likely to break out, the cleric would receive mostly combat oriented spells. It might also be possible for the player to make a knowledge (religion) check to pray for a specific spell of their choice.
This is obviously a bit of a nerf for the cleric, but it's already considered one of the most powerful classes, so I think it could work in either a more roleplay-oriented campaign or a campaign with beginning player, where no one is too concerned with optimization. I think that it could be a great way for the cleric to stay true to their domain (no fire clerics casting create water) and actually feel like some higher being is granting their spells. What do you think of the idea?
I wonder how many GMs get the urge to play thier player's clerics. I don't see how doing this is anything BUT taking roleplaying away from the character.
Hmm, I think 1st Edition D&D had something like that - your deity could veto certain spells or even give you something entirely different - but it would be a pain for the player and extra work for the GM.
I would not go that far, but if there is a product that gives you a more thematic list a la the spheres from 2E, that could be a decent solution. I have heard of the Spheres of Power book, does it do something like that?
This is one of the worst house-rules suggestions I've ever seen around here. And this is not something I say lightly.
It removes agency from the player, makes the class completely unfun, forces characters to be extremely narrow-minded (Cleric of God of Fire can't prepare Create Water?! WTF?) and increases the workload of the GM.
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@The Shaman: That is not the case, regarding Spheres of Power. It's a very open-ended (and terrifically designed) alternate magic system that replaces all kinds of magic, both arcane and divine. It actually even lets players build their own spells, so it's sorta the opposite of the OP's suggestion, in a sense.
I would not play a cleric if the GM insisted on this house-ruleI would not play a GM if the player insisted on this house-rule.
I'm pretty sure you're making a joke here, but I think I'm missing it.
Regardless, while we are in this vein...
I agree with Franz Lunzer that it would make the cleric class not fun to play and that I would simply choose not to make a cleric character with the OP as the GM if they used this rule.
Which is a very different from saying that you would refuse to GM if a player insisted on doing so, which I think is what your statement suggest.
Of course, I haven't rule out the possibility that you're just being whimsically silly. It's just hard to tell on the internet at times.
What do you think of the idea?I think you can capture the spirit of your idea by having the deity decide the domain spell slot.
Allow the deity to pick any spell as the domain spell instead of from the limited selection of two. You might consider granting this spell prior to the cleric picking their other spells for the day.
In the end, the player loses control of picking one spell (which they didn't really have great control over anyways). The deity has a nifty influence effect that you are trying to achieve The player gains a bit of insight about what the day could bring to help load up a smarter spell set for the day.
Now this is pretty good. Since the effect is limited to only 1 spell that the player really doesn't get much choice on anyways, having the deity (read GM) decide the spell from any domain spell available to the deity could be neat. Remember true deities have access to at least 5 domains.
I'd also suggest going with Rory's version of this idea instead. The domain spell is a bonus spell anyway. Deities tend to have up to five domains and the bonus coming from any of them, but is chosen by the GM, could be interesting so long as there's a proviso that the GM's not allowed to be nasty.
Which is the other thing that could go horribly wrong with this. Not only does this take away a lot of player choice and put more work for a GM, it also relies on the GM being a basically decent person that's not going to use the new power to yank the Cleric's chain.
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If I fiat a change to the clerics spell list it either means the deity is directly involved in the outcome of a certain encounter that will happen (used sparingly).
The deity is displeased in a way requiring less than an atonement. For instance the party passes a village that requests healing assistance and the healing domain cleric saves spells for the party (just in case). I've found changing the spell allotment to all healing spells just before arrival in a town striken by war is an excellent way to inform the cleric not to abandon his or her clinical and spreading the faith responsibilities.
It communicates to the cleric to tend certain duties without direct communication such as a dream. The cleric must interpret the meaning rather than being spoon fed by the GM.
Only if the same applies to wizards. :)
Or maybe since he has to study his spellbook, he rolls a level check on each spell he wants to see if he gets it for the day or not. :)
Oh, I was gunna say just do the domain. I would only suggest ever doing this as a GM to HELP the PCs or as part of an adventure device. But that's my own preferences. As it stands, my PCs are always really close to losing all spellcasting every game because they pull up their phones, go through all the spells, pick whichever looks most appealing, and completely negate my favorite classes (spontaneous casters)
I take it from your comment about spontaneous casters that they are looking for spells and saying, "Oh I had this prepared" when it comes time to cast? Even if they're supposed to be playing prepared casters who are restricted in terms of what spells they have access to (e.g. Wizards, magi, witches)?
If this is becoming a problem for you, have them write down their prepared spells when they prepare them and give you a copy of the list (and if they have a spellbook/familiar with spells stored therein, have them give you a list of spells in the book/familiar)
What would the cleric get as compensation for losing his ability to choose his spells?
I would expect 8+ skills per level, full BAB, heavy armor use and the ability to take Fighter feats.
Or...
D12 hit dice, full BAB, and barbarian rage ability...
You get the idea.
Back in 2nd ed, I had something similar happen.
Campaign concept prevented receiving higher level spells until macguffin acquired for each spell level. I played a Druid. This meant I got a 7th level spell well before anyone else, but we only had items for levels 1-6.
What I did was told the DM that I was meditating on filling that 7th level slot, but not specifying what spell to fill it with. DM used that gift to fill it with a 6th level non-druid spell needed to advance the plot.
Point being, my character asked for divine inspiration of a single spell, not the complete list.
While allowed in 1st (and I think in 2nd also), vetting a selected spell didn't happen unless it had been previously used and the DM knew it would wreck the plot, or that the player abused the spell. It even specified that the deities did not do this unless something special was up with the character already. For example, being punished for bad behavior with loss of higher level casting but allowed needed spells to quest for restoration of grace.
Basically, it adds to the GM's load, and takes away choice from the player. Neither is a good thing. For the occasional divine inspiration, the magic item linked works great.
EDIT: As a GM, I think I would let the item mechanically work as a dedicated slot filled with a TBD spell that could be used anytime the player wished. Essentially like a wizard's bonded item spell, but with the spell list covered by the item.
/cevah
It might be fun to let the domain spells be filled by the god, but I wouldn't go farther than that.
It's also ok just to give out bonus spells if the cleric is doing a good job: everything you asked for, +1.
I've also punished alignment infractions this way, but you need a clear violation to really make this work. After robbing the travellers the night before, your god gifts you with locate object x15, and atonement.
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Oh great yet another person trying to tell the poor Cleric player how he should be playing his character... And people wonder why players avoid playing a cleric...
I've done it sparingly but I usually give a slight boon with the spell(s) I choose for the player.
I wasn't under the impression that the cleric just prays and has a whole bunch of random spells granted to him. Rather I was under the impression that the cleric prayed specifically for the spells he chooses. It would be kinda a d--k move for the god he's serving so faithfully to go "Nah, you're getting these other spells instead!"
Also, what if the player prefers, as many cleric players do, to leave some slots open for emergencies. Would the diety in this houserule system deny him that request?
I wasn't under the impression that the cleric just prays and has a whole bunch of random spells granted to him. Rather I was under the impression that the cleric prayed specifically for the spells he chooses. It would be kinda a d--k move for the god he's serving so faithfully to go "Nah, you're getting these other spells instead!"
When I've done this it has been a small selection of the cleric's spells per day. I think the most I ever did was 3.
Also I talk to the player before hand and as I said before the spells generally come with boons.
Boons I have used:
Deity chosen spell cannot be interrupted or countered
Deity chosen spell cast at 4 caster levels higher
Deity chosen spell can be cast twice before it is expended
Deity chosen spell affects two alignments (holy/axomatic word as a single spell basically)
Deity chosen spell is quickened (or other metamagic is applied)
So while the player may be miffed that a few spells were chosen for him, he also knows he's getting something substantial for it as well.
