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So, I'll play the Kingmaker AP and the party will be of 3 characters: a sorcerer, a magus and I pretend to play with a cleric.
It will be 25-pt to attributes, 2 traits (one must be a campaign trait), can take a drawback to get another trait.
With this in mind, and after read the Player's Guide, I think in an archer build, would be something like this:
Cleric of Erastil (Herald Caller)
Human, LG
Str 14
Dex 14+2
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 16
Cha 10
Traits:
Deadeye Bowman
Fate's Favored
Rostlander
Drawback:
Headstrong
Domain: Animal (Feather)
Feats:
1st - PBS, Precise Shot
3rd - Summon Good Monster
4th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Augment Summoning
5th - Boon Companion
7th - Deadly Aim
8th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Superior Summoning
9th - Evolved Summons
11th - ?
13th - ?
15th - ?
Well, but I don't think that an archer build would be the best option for this party composition.
Any suggestions for the build? Or any other interesting idea for a better support, or maybe a melee build?
Thank you!
Your actions at range will be taken up with summoning stuff so that there are meatshields ready when the enemy reaches melee. Your damage with the bow is fairly poor too, you need a few more feats to pull off a useful cleric archer.
You can actually pour even more feats into summoning if that's what you want. Versatile Summon Monster and/or Expanded Summon Monster.
It will likely be worth picking up an item creation feat at some point. You'll have the money and the time to make use of it.
If you want a melee-focused divine Erastil-worshipper, try a warpriest with a reach weapon. Use your AoOs to entangle foes before they can reach you. It's a monster controlling build.
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@Arcaian: yes, could be an idea, but Brewer's guide is too much outdated. If there is something more updated... But thank you!
@avr: yes, the damage with the bow is really poor. My initial idea was to make an archer cleric, that will fight at distance, sending his pet to the battle + minions from the summon spells. But, maybe an Evangelist with archer's feats tree, or a Herald Caller with summon's feats tree could be a better idea, never forgetting the support role. Can you help me in this? I really like the builds you usually suggests. :)
@CampinCarl9127: I appreciate your suggestion about the warpriest, but I want to play with a cleric, for level 7th to 8th spells. Thank you, sir!
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Rather than going Warpriest, one option is to go Evangelist Cleric with a single level of Unchained Monk or Urban Barbarian. You still have the spell levels of an Oracle and full Caster Level with Magical Knack, but you gain a major added combat ability through Unchained Flurry of Blows or Controlled Rage (which can be used with performance).
You could run an Evanglist Cleric/ Unchained Monk 1 like:
Dual Talent Human: 16/18+STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 16/18+WIS, 8CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack, (Campaign), (Drawback)
1(Unchained Monk). +Dodge / Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack
5. Crane Style
7. Crane Wing
9. (???)
11. Crane Riposte
You attack with Flurry of Blows and Power Attack using a temple sword or 9-ring broadsword in two hands, and then you switch grip with a free action to defend with Crane until your next turn (where you switch back to two hands to attack, and so on). With high wisdom and Dodge your AC is already decent, and then Crane Style eventually bumps it up into the kind of numbers you would get with heavy armor and a shield. Attack is very strong if you're using the typical Cleric combat buffs as well as Evangelist, so you can afford to use Power Attack and Crane Style. Depending on which deity you choose, you can add more power to attack or defense or both through Domain spells. So besides being able to summon at an Oracle spell level, you're very tanky and have very strong melee ability.
Personally I really like Glory/Heroism Domain, since it has Heroism as a Domain Spell and some other nice stuff as well. If you use domain slots above 3 for more Heroism you can have plenty. Sarenrae, Iomedae and Shizuru all have that one. If you have an Evangelist Cleric with Heroism (cast before), Divine Favor, Inspire Courage (can activate as a move action at 8 at the same time you cast Divine Favor) and Fate's Favored, you've got a +8 to attack by level 9. You can have a -2 from Power Attack and a -2 from Crane Style and you're still deadly accurate.
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I'd suggest forgetting Erastil. He kind of sucks both thematically and in terms of domain choices. You're building a civilization in the wilderness and he favors hunter gatherers and subsistence farming. You'll never make a good kingdom based on his tenets.
Actually I would say this is entirely wrong.
Erastil is the good deity most featured in the path. He is all about converting wilderness into civilized land, Adabar likes cities, while Erasil prefers more rural communities, but he is definitely about settlements, farmers, basically pioneers, which is exactly what the AP is focused on. And the Animal(feather) domain is one of the strongest.
As far as the OPs initial question goes, a party has to deal with three things in combat to be effective. It has to hit the enemy (strikers), multiply existing force strength and mitigate weaknesses (support) and prevent the enemy from doing unto you (battlefield control).
Since you have only three people, and pathfinder really rewards specialization, each of you need to have one job that you will primarily do, with a little bit of focus on a secondary role.
The magus is almost certainly going to be a striker.
The sorcerer could take any role, although battlefield control is probably their strongest followed by support. Many people want to make them strikers though, which they can do, but is in my opinion their weakest choice. Without knowing what the sorcerer is planning on doing, it is difficult to know what your best option is.
Herald Caller is a pretty strong battlefield control option, and there is nothing wrong with doing that. If you are going to take the support role instead, I would strongly think about Evangelist.
I would consider having your animal companion be a mount, and not taking boon companion. Archery while mounted doesn't require any investment (beyond regular archery anyway) and dramatically increases your mobility (meaning cover is often less of an issue) and if you and your mount are mostly trying to keep out of the way, a lvl-3 AC is probably sufficient. That would free up a feat for archery, which would make that quite respectable as a secondary role when you have finished your first one. Having someone in the group who will be range oriented is probably a good thing to increase your overall flexibility.
Yeah, Erastil is a big part of the first couple books (the only ones I've GMed/played). So is archery.
Also Zen archer/monk 1 or 2 levels and cleric of Erastil work nicely together. And archery plays a nice role in the 5th book as well..
We had a human fighter/wizard/eldritch knight with the elven ancestry trait/feat who specialized in bow and did awesome. So did our king, the warforged gunslinger with his dwarven revolver and regular revolver (especially since the gun damages went up due to some realism given that bigger bullets equal bigger damage, but less shots. Dwarven revolver does 3d6 but only has 4 rounds, regular revolver does 2d6 rather then 1d8), especially when he took leadership and made his dwarven revolver a 10th level bard. But then most of the party was killed in the 5th book, so only the king and a couple of PCs survived....
I wouldn't dip out. Just go straight evangelist cleric. Getting spells on schedule is important. You can't get crane wing, but you can get similar defensive benefits from quickdraw and a quickdraw shield and a morningstar is good enough as a melee weapon. That's 1 feat for proficiency and 1 for quickdraw rather than 1 for dodge and 2 for crane style/wing. Also, you don't need as much wisdom as BadBird suggests. Your best spells don't offer saves. You'd do better with an extra feat than dual talented.
To be fair, if dropping a single level of Cleric spell progression was a critical issue then the Oracle would be junk. Generalizations aside, it depends on what you're going for; if the idea is to deploy some meatsims while running a strong offense, then two-handed unchained flurry and stacked wisdom/crane defenses works well. Whether Dual Talent is worth it depends entirely on whether an extra feat at 0 BAB is more useful than an ability bump, and that depends on the overall picture. As far as wisdom goes, being able to use things like Aura of Doom and Instrument of Agony on a melee Cleric is a huge asset if one can do it effectively, since it allows for actionless debuffing and controlling.
Anyhow, there are a million ways to run a Cleric. While it's a little more tricky to do well, Clerics can run a solid offense while also filling other functions to varying degrees, and for a 3-man party that can make a huge difference.
@Dave Justus, the sorcerer certainly will be a battlefield controller. Any build suggestion?
I would go with the Evangelist Cleric then, with archery as a secondary focus.
That way you can spend a round or two buffing, and after that raining down some arrows. The evangelist bardic performance will make up for BAB and add damage, as well as making the magus happy.
Like I said, I'd have the animal companion be a mount, that will help keep both of you out of trouble directly, and give you pretty clear shots most of the time, while still taking full attacks. I don't think you will need boon companion for an AC that isn't directly in melee.
Your 3rd and 5th level feats above could be swapped out for rapid shot and weapon focus: longbow. Instead of evolved summons at 9, you could take manyshot. This will make you a quite competent archer and after a round of buffing (maybe two before you can use your performance as a move action) you should be able to rain down arrows pretty effectively.
Just by the numbers the reach cleric is probably stronger than the archer cleric, since you often will get to make attacks as AOOs, instead of using your actions. Having someone in the group who can meaningfully engage at range is probably worth that trade-off though, particularly since a magus often has even a harder time than a full BAB melee guy at switching to ranged attacks.
Of course with evangelist your channel is weaker and you lose spontaneous casting of cure spells. Ideally most healing should be done out of combat with wands, but you will want to prepare a couple of your higher level spells as healing for emergencies (once again, a mount can help greatly getting to a comrade in trouble.) Condition removal for 'must fix now' problems like blindness and paralysis should mostly be done via scrolls, unless you know you are going to be facing that problem. Once again, a mount is a huge help as you can be pulling a scroll from your haversack while the mount is galloping over to the problem spot.
Obviously, kingmaker has a lot of mount friendly adventuring.
On consideration of flavor, if I was playing an Evangelist Cleric in Kingmaker I'd be seriously tempted to use a Banner of the Ancient Kings - preferably held in a light shield hand while swinging a weapon in the other for style points (and shield use). Besides the thematic appeal, an additional +3 to attack and damage all around on top of the normal +2 by the time the banner is affordable is pretty awesome. Normally Flagbearer is a nuisance to take on a Cleric with the 15CHA, but with a 25-point buy it's pretty easy.
Without going deep into spoiler territory I’ll agree with Dave Justus that Erastil is actually very appropriate for the Kingmaker AP. Erastil also lets you take the Deadeye Bowman trait, which could be almost as good as free Precise Shot in a lot of cases. I’d also say that an animal companion is an even better choice than usual in Kingmaker.
I like the Evangelist due to Inspire Courage, which will help the Magus, your animal companion, and any monsters you might summon. This can help your party be very strong in melee though obviously you’d have fewer feats left over to become an expert archer.
Regardless of which archetype you use I’d suggest combining Summon Good Monster with Sacred Summons since that will let you bring in Archons as a standard action and add Legion and Shield Archons to your list in addition to Lantern and Hound Archons. These are all pretty serviceable summons, and Lantern Archons supported by a Bard or Bard-like character can be very effective offensively. Summoning as a standard action is a big deal since else your summons show up slowly and you’re likely to have your spell disrupted.
Evangelist (Ranged)
1st - Spell Focus (Conjuration), Augment Summoning
3rd - Sacred Summons
5th - Boon Companion
7th - Point Blank Shot
9th - Rapid Shot
11th - Discordant Voice (+1d6 sonic damage)
13th - Summon Good Monster (add Legion and Shield Archons to your list)
Herald Caller (Ranged)
1st - PBS, Precise Shot
3rd - Rapid Shot
4th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Augment Summoning
5th - Boon Companion
7th - Sacred Summons
8th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Superior Summoning
9th - Manyshot
11th - Summon Good Monster
13th - Deadly Aim
You could obviously change up the order you take feats in for the first build to be better at archery early and build up summoning later. Without Precise Shot you might need to pick your shots a little, but there’s often a monster which isn’t in melee, and eventually your Inspire Courage bonus should nearly cover the difference in attack bonus even when there isn’t.
While the second build looks really good at archery I suspect that a little analysis in a spreadsheet might show it doesn’t really do that much more damage than the first one since the Bard-like bonuses would even things out a lot for your PC’s damage output. Taking the summons and other PCs into consideration I’d guess the Evangelist would help the party generate more damage overall. I figure that letting Summon Good Monster go until 13th level shouldn’t be a big deal since you probably won’t want to spend many 6th level slots on summoning Legion Archons until you have a few more 6th level slots. I guess the ability to cast Summon Monster spontaneously is a nice aspect of the Herald Caller.
You could potentially skip Boon Companion if you want to use the Animal Companion solely as a mount/archery platform (perhaps a flying one at higher levels). I think the potential power of the animal in melee is tough to ignore though, especially for the Evangelist who gives it bonuses.
There are no Erastil keyed items that don't suck.
There’s at least one pretty decent Erastil themed item I can think of off the top of my head though it might be better for another class besides Cleric.
Maybe instead of a cleric focused on summoning, your character could be an inquisitor (strong at both range and melee; as well as good with skills, which could be an issue considering the other PCs) with either the Animal/Feather or Animal/Fur domain (for the swift action speed boost); you could select an elk companion*, if staying with the Erastil theme. Take the Vagabond Child trait instead of Fate's Favored to gain Disable Device as a class skill and the character can fill the "locks and traps guy" role (which is probably not being filled by the other PCs); sift is also on the inquisitor spell list.
*-
Elk Companions
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 50 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack gore (1d6) or 2 hooves (1d3); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 5; Special Qualities low-light vision.
7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack gore (1d8) or 2 hooves (1d4); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4.
We had an Inquisitor in our Kingmaker game at higher levels, and he was very powerful. I think the Kingmaker Player's Guide points out that there's not much need for a "locks and traps guy" in the campaign though.
Our Sylvan Sorcerer had an elk/megaloceros which my Paladin/Bard rode around on. They're quite good at charging.
If you really want to work the mounted combat angle, one level of Sohei can pick up Mounted Skirmisher as a bonus feat along with armored flurry. Cross it with an Animal Companion, and full mount movement plus flurry is pretty absurdly good.
We had an Inquisitor in our Kingmaker game at higher levels, and he was very powerful. I think the Kingmaker Player's Guide points out that there's not much need for a "locks and traps guy" in the campaign though.
What the guide says is: "Recommendations: Kingmaker includes traps, although they’re not as overwhelmingly prevalent as are hazards, ambushes, and social situations where rogues can excel." While the need is less than in a "typical" dungeon-heavy campaign, there are several places where it can be really useful to have someone to handle that role.
If you are going cleric, and want both the travel and liberation domains go with dwarf.
You get the +10 bump to speed, and no matter how armored you are you are still moving at 30 (bumped) up to 40 most of the time due to the domain spell longstrider.
Take heavy armor prof, or dip a fighter level. Click on this profile for ideas....
This guy has walked right through the 8 Otugy reach attacks, and bashed the thing sensless without taking any damage.
I love stone plate!
Here's a thematic mounted Erastil Cleric type that's very strong on the attack and has solid defenses. I left out summoning perks since on a character like this I typically prefer to make the character stronger at the expense of the disposable help, but you could write in Augment and etc easily enough.
Erastilian Wild Horseman
Sohei Monk 1 / Scroll Scholar Cleric of Erastil 8
Human: 16/18+2STR, 14DEX, 14CON, 12INT, 15WIS, 7CHA
Traits: Magical Knack, Fate's Favored, Pioneer, Paranoid
Cleric Domains: Animal/Feather & Plant/Growth (Scroll Scholar)
1So. *Devoted Guardian* / Mounted Combat / +Sohei: Mounted Skirmisher / +Human: Quick Draw
2Cl. *Eyes of the Hawk* / *Scroll Scholar - Knowledge: Nature*
3Cl. Weapon Focus: Temple Sword
4Cl.
5Cl. *Animal Companion* / Boon Companion
6Cl. *Scroll Scholar - Knowledge: Dungeoneering* / *Scroll Scholar - Identify & Comprehend Languages*
7Cl. Power Attack
8Cl.
9Cl. Trick Riding
Offense: Mounted Skirmisher two-handed temple sword flurry with an Air Walk trained mount. In unmounted situations, Enlarge Person is available from Domain.
Defense: Mithral medium armor and a quickdraw light shield, using the shield technique Atarlost mentioned - move the quickdraw shield aside to attack on your turn. Barkskin provides additional protection; fill up otherwise unused domain slots for multiple uses, including on mount. Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier with Fate's Favored for +2 luck AC. Eyes of the Hawk and Devoted Guardian have great synergy with a naturally high Perception.
How did you get mounted skirmisher at level 1?
Sohei adds mounted combat feats to their list of monk bonus feats, and monk bonus feats don't require prerequisites.
Oh, and one thing to note with a sohei dip - you treat your level as BAB for flurry, so you'll never take a -2 from flurry and a -1 from BAB. If you're allowed to do the multiclass thing that just calls it all 3/4 BAB then so much the better.
Wow, BadBird, that's a good observation on the lack of prereqs for Monk bonus feats. Sohei is also great due to Devoted Guardian since never being surprised means never suffering two turns of enemy attacks before you can react.
Is the Scroll Scholar just to help boost the party's Knowledge checks to ID monsters? I guess that the Cloistered Cleric would be good at that though the cost in spell slots might be too high. On the other hand, when it is Kingmaker there's probably a lot of time for Craft Wand (maybe moving Power Attack to 3rd level and putting in Craft Wand at 7th). This could be especially helpful if the party's Magus takes the wand arcana.
I still suspect that the Evangelist might be a more efficient "team player".
If you're concerned about spell slots, Kingmaker is probably around 90% one encounter per day, which means you can get by with fewer resources that replenish daily.
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@Dragonchess Player & @BadBird: I appreciate your suggestions, but I really want to play with a straight cleric - no dip, no other class. (Even the Erastilian Wild Horseman looking so amazing)
@Donagar: thank you for the suggestion, but I want to play with a human.
@Devilkiller: sooooooooo amazing the second build!!!
@Atarlost: why Cha so down? How can I channel to heal my poor friends, only one time per day? :/
A interesting note: none of the builds takes the "Selective Channeling" feat. Is this a so bad choice?
Ah! And now we have a skald in the party, so, I don't need to be an evangelist, and I'm thinking in a reach cleric build... Maybe a Crusader?
Suggestions? :)
Maybe switch Selective Channel to 1st and Toppling Spell to 3rd?
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Selective Channel comes at 3rd level because channeling is delayed due to the Evangelist archetype. If you did not take the Evangelist archetype, then taking Selective Channel at 1st is the way to go.
@Rory, as we now have a Skald in the party, I believe that an evangelist will not be my first option, but thank you! :)Just in case...
Did you know the skald is not good at buffing a sorcerer, magus, or cleric? Those three characters are going to want to cast spells in combat.
The skald doesn't really fit well with a caster group. They might not have realized that.
Even if the skald is going to be a spell warrior? Isn't it almost the same bonuses from the bardic performance?
Spell Warrior weapon song doesn't have the rage issues of raging song, but it has its own issues.
Basically you have to give everyone's weapons the same bonuses, and they overlap with existing bonus.
So if you give all your friends weapons +2 enhancement bonus, if they have a +1 weapon already it is only adding +1 (at a level where inspire courage would be adding a +2 competence bonus that stacks.) If they already have a +2 or better weapon, it does nothing. You can get around this by adding special properties, but now not only do they not have to already have the special property, but it has to be appropriate. The magus might want keen for example, but then that won't help the cleric archer. It is really a great ability for enhancing a bunch of backup weapons, like if everyone needs to grab their backup bow, but that is a lot more situational than just inspire courage.
I'm glad you liked the builds. Evangelist would actually stack OK with Skald since the bonuses you'd grant would be different. Inspire Courage grants a competence bonus to attacks and damage whereas Weapon Song adds enhancement bonuses or other enchantments to weapons.
You could be effective with various different builds and archetypes. It is mostly just a matter of deciding what appeals to you.
@Dave Justus - I'd agree that Inspire Courage is probably more generally useful than Weapon Song. It is the Cleric who would potentially have Inspire Courage though, not the Skald. Of course the Skald could change to a Bard, but I think the Skald's Rage Powers have some really interesting possibilities (beat DR/good, improve AC, pounce, etc)
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Well, look at this:
Herald Caller of Erastil
Half-elf, LG
Str 16 (14+2)
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 8
Wis 16
Cha 14
Traits:
Fate's Favored
Rostlander
(slot open)
Drawback:
Headstrong
Domain: Animal (Feather)
Feats:
1st - Exotic Weapon Prof. (Fauchard) [B]; Toughness
3rd - Power Attack
4th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Augment Summoning
5th - Boon Companion
7th - Sacred Summons
8th - Bonus (Herald Caller): Superior Summoning
9th - Summon Good Monster
11th - ? (selective channeling? Versatile Summon Monster? Expanded Summon Monster?)
13th - ? (craft woundrous items?)
15th - ? (combat reflexes?)
It's more a kind of reach cleric... What do you think?
Just to remember: have to be a straight cleric, no dips, no others classes.
Just to remember [2]: the party comp. is formed by a magus (damage dealer), sorcerer (battlefield controller), skald (kinda support) and a cleric (me!).
Thank you!
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Also I feel a trend is to not post unless you have advice or criticism. So if they have no idea of something, or if your build is fine, then they are likely to not put anything.
If you're going to be in the front, you might want Combat Reflexes A LOT sooner, like 1st level instead of Toughness. That way, even if you're flat-footed, you can get an AoO or two off as they close.
If you're not going to be in the front rank, then it looks real good.
The fauchard is a pretty sweet weapon. Don't forget to use it to make combat maneuvers at reach, which can mitigate un-trained AoOs.
I would be wary of getting into any kind of significant danger with light armor, no shield, and a DEX of 12. On the up-side, you could take the Armor Expert trait and use a mithral breastplate without any Armor Check Penalty.
Anyhow, just to throw out one other possibility for a front-line Evangelist/Summoner type:
The Wild Herald
Evangelist of Erastil 9
Dual Talent Human: 14/16+, 12, 14, 11, 14/16, 15
Traits: Fate's Favored, Armor Expert, Bastard, Headstrong
1. Quickdraw
3. Flagbearer
5. Boon Companion
7. Sacred Summons
9. Power Attack
Notable Equipment: Morning Star, Mithral Breastplate (no armor penalty with Armor Expert), Light Shield (no Armor Penalty if it's at least masterwork), Banner of the Ancient Kings.
You mount a Banner of the Ancient Kings onto a pole and carry it in a hand with a light shield. The banner improves your Inspire Courage and doubles the Flagbearer feat, so by the time you (and your party?) can afford one, you'll be passing around a huge +5 competence/morale bonus to both attack and damage to all allies (which will stack with Inspired Rage or Weapon Song from the Skald).
At the beginning of a battle you grip the banner pole in both hands for the initiative and save bonuses while casting spells. When you get into a melee situation you can quickdraw your morning star and go to work with your huge combat bonus - you only lose the save bonus when holding the banner in one hand. If you need to cast a spell after you've drawn your weapon, you can sheathe it with a move action, cast, then quickdraw it again.
Sir Peter, are you starting at level 1?
If so, you can use Quick Draw at 1st level to draw a javelin and use a heavy shield and still move. Basically a mobile armored artillery. You won't be terribly deadly, but you could also throw a javelin, move up to melee, and draw a morningstar and be ready for whacking.
I've seen some pretty effective archer/melee switch-hitters at level 1 using Quick Draw.