1) If I gain a familiar from a class like wizard, then i gain a level in witch and choose the "synergist" archetype am I able to fuse with the familiar I got from being a wizard? (i'm assuming the levels stack to determine abilities and i dont get two familiars, correct me if wrong)
2) Can I stack it with witch archetype that replaces the familiar feature of the witch class- (interestingly the synergist witch doesn't mention altering or removing the standard familiar class feature) -and if i do so, will my familiar from being a wizard be usable with the synergist witch's symbiosis class feature?
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1. Generally, levels you take in classes that grant familiars stack with each other to determine a familiar's basic abilities. In this case, your familiar would become a witch familiar and would gain the Symbiosis abilities.
2. Much less clear. I think it would be allowed, but your familiar would not advance on the familiar table with your witch levels (deliver touch spells, speak with master, Natural armor, Intelligence).
1. Generally, levels you take in classes that grant familiars stack with each other to determine a familiar's basic abilities. In this case, your familiar would become a witch familiar and would gain the Symbiosis abilities.
2. Much less clear. I think it would be allowed, but your familiar would not advance on the familiar table with your witch levels (deliver touch spells, speak with master, Natural armor, Intelligence).
This is exactly what i thought. Anyone disagree?
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This is exactly what i thought. Anyone disagree?1. Generally, levels you take in classes that grant familiars stack with each other to determine a familiar's basic abilities. In this case, your familiar would become a witch familiar and would gain the Symbiosis abilities.
2. Much less clear. I think it would be allowed, but your familiar would not advance on the familiar table with your witch levels (deliver touch spells, speak with master, Natural armor, Intelligence).
1) All class levels that grant familiars stack. Period. You can never have more than one familiar. Unless the class specifically says you do. This is a familiar rule. Another rule is; if you gain witch levels that grant a familiar the familiar becomes a witch familiar.
2) The familiar doesn't gain symbiosis. The witch does. This neither replaces or alters the familiar class feature, as it does nothing to the familiar. It just adds an ability to the witch.
At 1st level, a synergist gains the ability to meld or unmeld with her familiar as a standard action.
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This ability replaces the hexes gained at 1st, 8th, and 14th level.
This means you can get a second archetype that replaces the familiar class feature.
But if a class level does not grant a familiar there is nothing to stack. Thus, your witch levels will not add to your familiar.
You do still have a familiar, though, and Symbiosis allows you to meld with your familiar. It does not matter the source of the familiar.
Grand! thanks for the clarification!
Grand! thanks for the clarification!No problem. Familiars are one of my favorite class features, so I've worked over just about every rule and edge case you can think of for them. A LOT of time and research, there.
Oh, well then, before you go: i'm looking for a way to get a fiendish (devil, daemon, anything with horns, 'cept a goat) familiar, preferably without pumping levels into arcane spellcasting, any ideas?
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Oh, well then, before you go: i'm looking for a way to get a fiendish (devil, daemon, anything with horns, 'cept a goat) familiar, preferably without pumping levels into arcane spellcasting, any ideas?Grand! thanks for the clarification!No problem. Familiars are one of my favorite class features, so I've worked over just about every rule and edge case you can think of for them. A LOT of time and research, there.
Well, any class level that gives you a familiar gives you effective wizard levels for familiars(an arcane spellcaster). This should be enough to get improved familiar. Some people don't allow it... but that margin is shrinking, I think.
That's the only way I know to get something demony/devily. There are class features which grant improved familiar without being arcane spellcasters. But I bet you're looking for something that fits your build without changing too much.
So, you just need an effective wizard level high enough to pick the improved familiar you want, and then take improved familiar. Improved familiar bond will do it. Though, that's 4 feats to get an improved familiar. It's better to just pick a class that grants familiar levels.
Luckily there are now a bunch of class archetypes that grant them.
I'm one that says it doesn't, because you don't have arcane spellcaster levels for feats, which improved familiar is.
So if you are already a witch, bard, magus, bloodrager, wizard, arcanist, summoner, etc then you can use your arcane spellcaster levels to qualify.
If you are a fighter, rogue, paladin, cleric, druid, etc you use your levels as wizard levels for your familiar to determine the abilities it has, but it's not giving you any arcane spellcaster levels for anything else and thus you couldn't qualify.
**Please don't debate this unless the OP wants too. I'm not interesting in debating it and derailing the thread. Just giving the explanation of why people would say it doesn't work. And last thread I thought my side was growing.
Nah i dont mind a bit of discussion...
So let me get this straight: if im a 5th level barbarian and dip witch to gain a familiar at 6th level, I do not qualify for any improved familiars? and my familiar is lvl1?
What if those levels of barbarian were bloodrager?
And what if i'd gotten a familiar from bloodrager at first level?
Let me know if either of your understandings would change the outcome of any of these questions. It'll help me understand.
Then you are a 5th level Bloodrager/1st level Witch. Bloodrager doesn't grant a familiar.
Then you are a 5th level Bloodrager/1st level Witch. Bloodrager doesn't grant a familiar.
Let me stop you there:
Bloodline Familiars
Source Familiar Folio
Those with an inherent connection to magic often attract creatures who feel a similar instinctive pull toward magical forces. At 1st level, a sorcerer, bloodrager, or any other character with one of the following bloodlines can choose to gain a bloodline familiar. The character gains a familiar (as a wizard's familiar), treating her class level as her wizard level for the purposes of this ability. This familiar has an additional ability listed below based on the master's bloodline.
This replaces the 1st-level bloodline power granted by the character's bloodline.
Now quit derailing the thread and let someone answer the questions xD
There is also the tumor familiar if you are aberrant bloodline. Even if you don't have a famiar from bloodrager you do have an arcane caster level, so you could use your BR level to qualify for improved famiar on your witch famiar. But a tumor familiar goat is a great way to get horns.
Oh, that stupid Feat. Then yes, you have replaced your (most likely Arcane) Bloodline power with a Familiar. It stacks. Woo?
Nah i dont mind a bit of discussion...
So let me get this straight: if im a 5th level barbarian and dip witch to gain a familiar at 6th level, I do not qualify for any improved familiars? and my familiar is lvl1?
What if those levels of barbarian were bloodrager?
And what if i'd gotten a familiar from bloodrager at first level?
Let me know if either of your understandings would change the outcome of any of these questions. It'll help me understand.
Yes.
Your familiar will have the abilities of a lv1 wizard, but you'd have a lv5 arcane spellcasting level.you'd be at lv6 familiar with lv5 arcane spellcasting.
Yes.
Your familiar will have the abilities of a lv1 wizard, but you'd have a lv5 arcane spellcasting level.
you'd be at lv6 familiar with lv5 arcane spellcasting.
Ah ok i get it now, by lorewalkers understanding, would this be any different?
PS: wow bloodrager just gets nicer and nicer.
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Yes.
Your familiar will have the abilities of a lv1 wizard, but you'd have a lv5 arcane spellcasting level.
you'd be at lv6 familiar with lv5 arcane spellcasting.Ah ok i get it now, by lorewalkers understanding, would this be any different?
PS: wow bloodrager just gets nicer and nicer.
1) The class that gives you familiar levels does not need to be the one that gives you arcane spellcaster levels.
2) Effective wizard levels may work, ask the GM. Since the feat is about familiar selection.
3) Bloodrager is really nice.
4) You don't need a caster level. Only arcane spellcaster levels. Thus the first 3 levels of bloodrager count. But CL increasing items/abilities do not help.
Nah i dont mind a bit of discussion...
So let me get this straight: if im a 5th level barbarian and dip witch to gain a familiar at 6th level, I do not qualify for any improved familiars? and my familiar is lvl1?
What if those levels of barbarian were bloodrager?
And what if i'd gotten a familiar from bloodrager at first level?
Let me know if either of your understandings would change the outcome of any of these questions. It'll help me understand.
5 barb / 1 witch = lvl 1 familiar, 1 arcane spellcaster level
5 bloodrager / 1 witch = lvl 1 familiar, highest arcane spellcaster level 5
5 bloodrager(with familiar) /1 witch = lvl 6 familiar, highest arcane spellcaster level 5 (or 6 if GM counts effective wizard level)
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**Please don't debate this unless the OP wants too. I'm not interesting in debating it and derailing the thread. Just giving the explanation of why people would say it doesn't work. And last thread I thought my side was growing.
100% agreed. There is no definitive answer, and it makes sense to go either way. Especially considering how many archetypes that aren't spellcasters get familiars now.
This is pure FAQ bait and not worth the time spent debating. All has been said before 100 times over.
Just woken up, thanks for the patience in explaining all that, helps a lot!
/end thread - all questions answered
There's a handful of traits that will give you an arcane spell-like ability using your full character level as your CL, if your GM subscribes to the (wrong) caster level interpretation of Improved Familiar.
There's a handful of traits that will give you an arcane spell-like ability using your full character level as your CL, if your GM subscribes to the (wrong) caster level interpretation of Improved Familiar.
SLA don't qualify as casting anymore. So having a SLA wouldn't count for the prereqs either.
There's a handful of traits that will give you an arcane spell-like ability using your full character level as your CL, if your GM subscribes to the (wrong) caster level interpretation of Improved Familiar.SLA don't qualify as casting anymore. So having a SLA wouldn't count for the prereqs either.
You're the one who claims that improved familiar checks for [arcane] [caster level], which a spell-like ability does provide.
no it doesn't.
For the SLA you use X as your caster level. This does not give you any actual caster levels. If SLA did give you caster levels, it'd let you qualify for feats and Prestige classes, which they don't. Since they don't grant you caster levels for feats it doesn't give you caster levels for this feat.
Otherwise you'd be able to power arcane strike with it.
no it doesn't.
For the SLA you use X as your caster level. This does not give you any actual caster levels. If SLA did give you caster levels, it'd let you qualify for feats and Prestige classes, which they don't. Since they don't grant you caster levels for feats it doesn't give you caster levels for this feat.
Otherwise you'd be able to power arcane strike with it.
There's actually no such thing as a character's overall caster level. From the CRB: "A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell."
The CL is for the spell. Saying that "you" have a CL of 9 as a F1/W5/EK3 with Magical Knack is a shorthand; what you have is a CL of 9 for each of your wizard spells.
....all of that doesn't matter, though. Looking into it, I have to agree with you that SLAs don't qualify for [Arcane] [Caster Level].
(Improved Familiar does not check for [Arcane] [Caster Level])
no it doesn't.
For the SLA you use X as your caster level. This does not give you any actual caster levels. If SLA did give you caster levels, it'd let you qualify for feats and Prestige classes, which they don't. Since they don't grant you caster levels for feats it doesn't give you caster levels for this feat.
Otherwise you'd be able to power arcane strike with it.There's actually no such thing as a character's overall caster level. From the CRB: "A spell's power often depends on its caster level, which for most spellcasting characters is equal to her class level in the class she's using to cast the spell."
The CL is for the spell. Saying that "you" have a CL of 9 as a F1/W5/EK3 with Magical Knack is a shorthand; what you have is a CL of 9 for each of your wizard spells.
....all of that doesn't matter, though. Looking into it, I have to agree with you that SLAs don't qualify for [Arcane] [Caster Level].
(Improved Familiar does not check for [Arcane] [Caster Level])
What are you trying to say with the square brackets in [Arcane] [Caster Level]?
The Improved Familiar does require you to have a specific "Arcane Spellcaster Level" for each familiar type. I'm not sure if that is the same as the [Arcane] [Caster Level].
....all of that doesn't matter, though. Looking into it, I have to agree with you that SLAs don't qualify for [Arcane] [Caster Level].(Improved Familiar does not check for [Arcane] [Caster Level])
What are you trying to say with the square brackets in [Arcane] [Caster Level]?
The Improved Familiar does require you to have a specific "Arcane Spellcaster Level" for each familiar type. I'm not sure if that is the same as the [Arcane] [Caster Level].
That's my point. "Arcane Spellcaster Level" means...something. It's a unique combination of words not found anywhere else in the rules. Chess Pwn believes it means "Arcane Caster Level", I believe it means "effective wizard level".
That's my point. "Arcane Spellcaster Level" means...something. It's a unique combination of words not found anywhere else in the rules. Chess Pwn believes it means "Arcane Caster Level", I believe it means "effective wizard level".
....all of that doesn't matter, though. Looking into it, I have to agree with you that SLAs don't qualify for [Arcane] [Caster Level].(Improved Familiar does not check for [Arcane] [Caster Level])
What are you trying to say with the square brackets in [Arcane] [Caster Level]?
The Improved Familiar does require you to have a specific "Arcane Spellcaster Level" for each familiar type. I'm not sure if that is the same as the [Arcane] [Caster Level].
I see. I read it as "Arcane Caster Level" myself, but I agree that the language used is oddly unique. This is a rules area that could really use some official clarification. With all of the new ways to get Familiars, this comes up a lot.
I see. I read it as "Arcane Caster Level" myself, but I agree that the language used is oddly unique. This is a rules area that could really use some official clarification. With all of the new ways to get Familiars, this comes up a lot.
So depending on the understanding, a druid with the eagle domain could either qualify for improved familiar or not?
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No, I mean it to be arcane spellcaster level.
If you had bloodrager taking a -3 to it's caster level, like a ranger does, a level 7 bloodrager would still count for level 7 arcane spellcaster level.
So depending on the understanding, a druid with the eagle domain could either qualify for improved familiar or not?
I see. I read it as "Arcane Caster Level" myself, but I agree that the language used is oddly unique. This is a rules area that could really use some official clarification. With all of the new ways to get Familiars, this comes up a lot.
correct.
I agree with Chess Pwn. If it was supposed to be caster level it'd say caster level.
Plus the prerequisite for the feat says 'sufficiently high level'.
even if it meant "effective wizard level" you'd need actual effective wizard levels or "effective wizard level" for feats and not "effective wizard level" for things that aren't feats. Otherwise you still don't have the requirements for the feat.