Hmm. Dazing Assault. BAB +11. Stunning Assault BAB +16.
What's the lowest level wizard spell that can daze or stun comparable level opponents? Oh, right. Cantrip and Level 1 respectively.
Let's be fair here. barring a 1, no one is failing the fort save for daze at level 11 (it's also worth mentioning that even if you do fail the save, you become immune to it for a minute afterwards.
The fighter starts sucking at level 2 when enemy HP doubles and his damage goes up not at all.
Let's not make generalizations about fighters. a fighter could take power attack or piranha strike at level 2, which would increase his damage. or he could get a magical weapon.
At level 11 he finally gets a single target lockdown effect with reliability a wizard would scoff at. First he makes an attack at -5 then he forces a DC 20 fortitude save. The wizard or sorcerer can expect to match that DC with a 4th level spell on either fort or will if he started with 17 int or cha and has the expected +4 headband.
first, dc is 21, not 20. That aside however, he takes -5 to hit to have the chance to daze on each melee attack that hits for a round. That could be anywhere from 3-7, depending on how the fighter is built. Realistically, he's going to hit with 2-5 of those, meaning that he is forcing 2-5 fort saves to prevent someone from attacking. Assuming a conservative 3 hits a round, he can deal damage with each attack and force a save.
By the time the fighter can lock down a single opponent for one round as a standard action the wizard or sorcerer can make a single opponent friendly for 11 days using a spell slot one or two levels below his highest with the same save DC, but the wizard or sorcerer doesn't have to also succeed on an attack roll. Wow. Fighters sure have nice things.
If you're referencing dominate person, you should know that you'll most likely never get that spell off, unless you have significant in place defenses to protect you, since casting dominate person has a casting time of 1 round, and is close range, meaning that you'll likely be hit at least once (potentially more depending on the fighter).
I'm not saying that dazing and stunning assault (or similar feats, like stunning fist) are the be-all, end-all of fighter domination, but they do provide options for melee characters.
Let's be fair here. barring a 1, no one is failing the fort save for daze at level 11 (it's also worth mentioning that even if you do fail the save, you become immune to it for a minute afterwards.
Let's be fair here. No one is using Daze at level 11. So don't compare Dazing Assault to Daze, compare it to for instance Stone to Flesh. That a caster can do something like that at every level instead of level 11+ is just adding insult to injury.
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Hmm. Dazing Assault. BAB +11. Stunning Assault BAB +16.
What's the lowest level wizard spell that can daze or stun comparable level opponents? Oh, right. Cantrip and Level 1 respectively.
Look, I'm definitely not on the fighter's side. I'd dare say nearly every word about fighters that I utter on these forums is rightly dripping with words that many would seem vitriolic but are likewise factual.
But comparing dazing assault to the daze spell is grossly out of place, no matter how powerful casters are. Daze the spell, while available earlier has a wide variety of limitations.
1. It requires you to do nothing else except attempt to daze.
2. It comes with all the limits of casting spells (provoking, etc).
3. It has a short range (see #2).
4. It is mind-affecting.
5. It is subject to spell resistance.
6. If you fail, your turn was wasted.
7. If you succeed, you only trade your turn for their turn (because they are dazed 1 round and you used your action for 1 round).
8. If you succeed, your target becomes immune to the spell for 10 rounds.
9. It only affects humanoids.
10. It's save DC quickly becomes total ass.
11. It has a HD limit (4 HD or less) meaning it's 100% useless on anything with 5HD or more, making it fall out of use even against mooks.
Dazing assault has these limitations.
1. It's short range (melee-reach only).
2. It doesn't affect creatures immune to Fortitude saves.
By comparison, where Dazing Assault excels and why it is probably the best form of warrior CC available is...
1. It's a kicker. You are doing what you will do anyway (inflict damage), so even if they save, you still hit them (combines extremely well with other on-hit effects such as a life-drinker to the point of unfairness).
2. You can force multiple saves per round and keep pounding away. Unlike daze, your foe cannot become immune. This means if you full attack and hit 2-3 times each round, your foe may very well end up permanently locked into having their ass beaten like a tantrum throwing child in K-Mart.
3. It affects almost everything. The only things in core Pathfinder that can resist its ire are undead and constructs and not because of immunity to the status but because it targets Fortitude. Even outside of core, very little has Daze immunity.
The fighter starts sucking at level 2 when enemy HP doubles and his damage goes up not at all.
The fighter starts sucking at level 1, when he has no abilities that distinguish him from a 1st level warrior, while Barbarians, Paladins, and Rangers all have some sort of abilities at 1st level (barbarians really make fighters look bad at this level because they have +2 HP, +10 ft. speed, wear the same armor, have more skill points, and can just decide to pop rage for +2 hit/+2-3 damage if needed.
At level 11 he finally gets a single target lockdown effect with reliability a wizard would scoff at. First he makes an attack at -5 then he forces a DC 20 fortitude save.
-5 to hit should still be within the 95% accuracy range for a dedicated martial. Also, as to whether it's single target or not depends on how many targets you can attack.
The wizard or sorcerer can expect to match that DC with a 4th level spell on either fort or will if he started with 17 int or cha and has the expected +4 headband.
But they can't keep throwing that spell out, nor force more than 1 save/round. The martial (not fighter, they suck) forces one each time they hit their foe, which means it's an opening gambit and then the lockdown begins.
Also, debuffs.
By the time the fighter can lock down a single opponent for one round as a standard action the wizard or sorcerer can make a single opponent friendly for 11 days using a spell slot one or two levels below his highest with the same save DC, but the wizard or sorcerer doesn't have to also succeed on an attack roll.
No, but they do have to contend with a +5 to their foe's save if in combat, and they generally can't spam it more than once / round, it costs them a daily resource, more things are immune to it, more ways to resist it, and they may have to make an attack roll if the foe has spell resistance, or the foe may just be strait up immune to it (due to things like spell immunity).
Wow. Fighters sure have nice things.
Fighters may never have nice things. Fortunately, dazing assault can be picked up by martials that do.
I've been lurking here for a while and felt like chiming in here. Sorry if some of these points are redundant.
On Mobility in combat: I don't think it has been mentioned yet, but for those of you without the ability to use houserules, there is a 7k magic item called Jaunt Boots which give a limited mobility option and are legal in PFS. Specifically, a 3/day 15ft step. Saves an action over quick runner shirt as well as time (if you have 8 you switch between) and it doesn't provoke.
On reliable tactics: Critical feats are neat, but unless you brought your loaded "lucky" dice, they are sort of wild card feats. They will probably show up in a combat heavy session, but might not help much depending on when they happen (a stunned boss with only 1hp left isn't debilitated nearly as much as when she has 100 hp). A tactic that is reliable should work at least two in three times. For the thread's topic, mobility, this means limiting enemy mobility to the fighter's level, or building for pounce/semipounce. One of my favorite ways to do the former is teleport tactician+phase locking weapons. A lot of high level outsiders have teleport abilities, and if you are lucky enough to get an attack on a spellcaster, you could ruin her contingent teleport. It helps limit the enemy's mobility to your level.
On Dazing Assault: Something worth noting is that undead and constructs, two fairly iconic creatures in fantasy rpgs, are immune. It is a very limited ability, with barely any range, and options to fail in two places. While an optimized martial may be hitting with the penalty all day, an unbuffed or casual martial (like a fighter whose feats are used for options and not attack) might face enemies where it hurts more than it helps.
2. You can force multiple saves per round and keep pounding away. Unlike daze, your foe cannot become immune. This means if you full attack and hit 2-3 times each round, your foe...Since when is this a thread about full attacks? This is about the low value of a standard action for level 6 and higher fighters. A fighter who can't full attack can force one save a round. Just like a wizard using a single target spell.
1st: I was speaking about the value of the feat itself.
2nd: It enables full-attacking. It gives you a fairly solid chance that your opponent simply won't have the option of avoiding your full-attack. When charging or making a standard attack, your too-hit is at its highest, making the penalty likely a moot point (you're still looking at a 95% hit chance most likely), and dazing them for 1 round prevents them from countering and/or escaping.
3rd: It's a tactic you can flip on and off, unlike a spell, and is near impossible to effectively defend against aside from making your save (it's also nonmagical which means bonuses vs magic or resistances vs magic do not help you). You can just keep spamming it and when it lands, you will more or less assuredly begin tearing them to pieces.
4th: It adds value to the standard action. Dealing 1/10th of your opponent's HP has little value. Dealing 1/10th of your opponent's HP and taking them out of the fight for a round has significantly more value.
5th: While an individual level-appropriate spell may have a higher value, it's also subject to more restrictions and can't be spammed as effectively. It costs you nothing if you fail, since you still get your damage in either way, and if you succeed, you very likely win (since you are now in full-attack space with your foe).
6th: Because it's spammable, it combos reliably with all sorts of things, reducing the need for a caster to use their big guns. As noted before, using a life-drinker with it makes it more or less an auto-win against your foe (your foe eats 2 negative levels each time you hit them, granting a cumulative -2 penalty to saves, and if they fail, just sit there for you to beat on them some more).
I'm assuming that your comparison to daze, the spell, was intended as comical hyperbole, because it's very easy to see the value of this tactic by comparison.
Look at the math.
If you have Weapon Focus do BOTH improve iteratives and grant a bonus to hit, you've doubled the power of the feat.
What you've just recommended is a massive increase in damage output. At level 12, all iteratives would be at full BAB and your 3 attacks would, on average, do more damage then the 4 attacks you'd get at BAB 16. Getting off 4 attacks at full BAB...that's like something a Come and GEt Me Barbarian would get. Do you KNOW how much damage output that is? It's insane.
{. . .}
Sorry, I phrased the proposal poorly. What I meant was:
Option 1: Weapon Specialization transforms the Weapon Training and Weapon Focus bonuses into bonuses that are considered to be part of your Base Attack Bonus (instead of adding separate bonuses that are added on top of it), thereby potentially advancing your number of attacks.
Option 2: Weapon Specialization leaves your highest attack bonus alone (and Weapon Focus applies normally to it), but converts Weapon Focus and Weapon Training into reductions of your iterative attack penalty, thus making these more useful, and potentially reducing the second attack penalty to zero (if you somehow get reduction past zero, you start getting the excess as normal bonuses on top of this attack, so that it continues to improve but doesn't pass your first attack; however, the third and fourth attacks continue to catch up)(*).
(*)Kirthfinder, which can be found linked from a thread linked on these boards, makes the Fighter's (and ONLY the fighter's) iterative attacks have a penalty floor of -5, so that a 20th level Fighter who has no other bonuses whatsoever attacks at +20/+15/+15/+15, while every other full BAB class attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5.
Agreed on Fighter needing non-attack options. Adding 2 more skill ranks per level and adding some more class skills (including Perception) would be a good start for this. Weapon Master's Handbook (including Versatile Training, although the implementation is rather kludgy) helps some, but more is needed (also keep an eye out for the upcoming Armor Master's Handbook).
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Why?
Because a move and full attack is OP in this game and everything that does it is unbalanced. Range combat suffers from high feat cost and not being a melee presence to gain the boon of regular full attacks, and it still gets hard countered by spells or mundane challenges like a tree or a large wooden box.
Obviously, it sucks. This limitation feels awful and completely meta contrived. A way to fix this is to just rebalance damage to include the full attack on move and to rebalance range combat to adjust for that lack of an advantage.
I don't think that is doable in PFs uncontrolled accuracy. Bonus to-hit can shift widely over a great range depending on build and buffs.
If changing the base full-round action rules can empower monster damage greatly, why don't just make the full-move full attack exclusive to frontline classes as a class feature? And never forget to patch up that horrible and irrational -15 penalty to the final iterative attack, too...
If changing the base full-round action rules can empower monster damage greatly, why don't just make the full-move full attack exclusive to frontline classes as a class feature? And never forget to patch up that horrible and irrational -15 penalty to the final iterative attack, too...
Yeeup. Like in 5e, additional attacks are specifically a class feature only some of the classes get. I'd be fine giving The Fighter, Rogue, Monk, and Barbarian a full 4 attacks by 20th level. Paladin, Ranger, Bard 3 attacks by 20th level. Cleric, Druid, and Wizard 2 attacks (or heck, keep them at 1) by 20th level. The more agency they have with spells the less likely they're going to be spending their turn swinging a weapon.
Also, iterative attack penalties are dumb and have zero reason for existing.
If you're going to remove the iterative penalty then give more easy ways to get bonuses to AC. Once you hit level 10 if you don't dedicate everything to AC then every attack is going to hit unless it's iterative attack or the opponent is blinded. I'd rather not be hit by every single attack in normal situations.
Look at the math.
If you have Weapon Focus do BOTH improve iteratives and grant a bonus to hit, you've doubled the power of the feat.
What you've just recommended is a massive increase in damage output. At level 12, all iteratives would be at full BAB and your 3 attacks would, on average, do more damage then the 4 attacks you'd get at BAB 16. Getting off 4 attacks at full BAB...that's like something a Come and GEt Me Barbarian would get. Do you KNOW how much damage output that is? It's insane.
{. . .}Sorry, I phrased the proposal poorly. What I meant was:
Option 1: Weapon Specialization transforms the Weapon Training and Weapon Focus bonuses into bonuses that are considered to be part of your Base Attack Bonus (instead of adding separate bonuses that are added on top of it), thereby potentially advancing your number of attacks.
Option 2: Weapon Specialization leaves your highest attack bonus alone (and Weapon Focus applies normally to it), but converts Weapon Focus and Weapon Training into reductions of your iterative attack penalty, thus making these more useful, and potentially reducing the second attack penalty to zero (if you somehow get reduction past zero, you start getting the excess as normal bonuses on top of this attack, so that it continues to improve but doesn't pass your first attack; however, the third and fourth attacks continue to catch up)(*).
(*)Kirthfinder, which can be found linked from a thread linked on these boards, makes the Fighter's (and ONLY the fighter's) iterative attacks have a penalty floor of -5, so that a 20th level Fighter who has no other bonuses whatsoever attacks at +20/+15/+15/+15, while every other full BAB class attacks at +20/+15/+10/+5.
Agreed on Fighter needing non-attack options. Adding 2 more skill ranks per level and adding some more class skills (including Perception) would be a good start for this. Weapon Master's Handbook (including Versatile Training, although the implementation is rather kludgy) helps...
I don't know all the Kirthfinder numbers and fixes.
that fighter option is basically the same as giving a fighter 3 attacks at full BAB, 300% damage over 250% for a standard class.
A fighter should in NO WAY have fewer skill points then a ranger. Rangers have magic. Fighters don't. If you don't have magic, you should have more skill points to compensate.
Unless you're a commoner.
I admit to being confused on how you want WT and WF to work with BAB. Are you saying that, IN ADDITION to them giving a bonus to hit on all attacks, they ALSO accelerate/reduce the penalty on iteratives?
In essence, you're double-dipping the TH bonus on a full attack.
A fighter at level 11 with Gloves of Dueling and Greater Weapon Focus would have WT +2, Gloves +2, WF +1 for +5 TH with primary weapon...and +5 on iteratives. This would max at level 17 with +8 on iteratives, +4 WT, +2 GLoves,and +2 Greater Weapon Focus.
So, at 11 you'd have +11/+11/+6/+1...your +5 accelerant would mean fighters get their 4th iterative at level 11 (12th if no gloves).
At level 16, you'd have base +16/+16/+13/+7. Taken to level 20, it would be 20/20/17/12. That would be basically 345% damage...the same as giving them an extra attack at full BAB, ala Haste.
We've already said it isn't the AMOUNT OF DAMAGE that needs fixing, not really.
It's the doing damage and keeping movement. So I think your suggestions are a little overboard?
==Aelryinth
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If you're going to remove the iterative penalty then give more easy ways to get bonuses to AC. Once you hit level 10 if you don't dedicate everything to AC then every attack is going to hit unless it's iterative attack or the opponent is blinded. I'd rather not be hit by every single attack in normal situations.
This is true from the PC side.
It is generally assumed that by level 10 a Melee's primary attack will hit 100% of the time. Note it is NOT assumed that all monsters will. You don't need to put gonzo money into AC if you just follow the most money-efficient way. Certain classes have an advantage here, of course.
Diffian, Iterative attacks are not dumb. They are simply a way of giving you additional things to do while increasing your damage at an acceptable pace. If your primary attack hits at 100%, it is assumed that your approximate following damage is 75%, 50% and 25%, for a 250% damage increase over time.
This is exactly the same as 1 and 2E's 1, 3/2, 2 and 5/2 attacks system, EXCEPT...in PF you can't move and attack. However, getting 2 attacks this round and 1 round the next annoyed people, so they simply averaged it out within one round.
You could more easily duplicate it by giving primary attack at full, and all iteratives at -5 TH, with a maximum of 2 extra attacks. That would put you at 250% dmg, right where you are at now.
==Aelryinth
{. . .}
I admit to being confused on how you want WT and WF to work with BAB. Are you saying that, IN ADDITION to them giving a bonus to hit on all attacks, they ALSO accelerate/reduce the penalty on iteratives?
{. . .}
No, you don't double-dip the bonuses -- instead the bonuses get moved to where they advance things that depend upon BAB, OR they reduce penalties on iteratives (mutually exclusive options -- not sure which is better, although I suspect thte second).
Option 1. 10th level Fighter (assuming no Weapon Training traceout by archetype) BAB with Weapon Specialization looks like +12/+7/+2, or +13/+8/+3 with Weapon Focus; however, neither of these add their bonuses on top of this yet again (but in contrast to no Weapon Specialization, they have a beneficial effect in advancing number of iterative attacks and adding earlier qualification for feats with a BAB requirement).
Option 2 (not used in combination with Option 1). 10th level Fighter (assuming no Weapon Training tradeout by archetype) BAB with Weapon Specialization looks like +10/+7 (or +10+1/+8 with Weapon Focus) -- no early 3rd hit as in Option 1, and BAB isn't advanced for qualifying for feats with a BAB requirement, BUT the 2nd hit is worth more (and if you run across a feat that depends upon the penalized BAB of your iteratives, your qualifications for that do advance faster).
I wouldn't be philosophically opposed to Fighters getting 6 skill ranks per level -- I was just attempting to avoid making too many big changes at the same time. (Now on the other hand, if we want to talk Pathfinder 2.0 territory . . . .)
As for doing damage and keeping movement, I posted suggestions earlier in this thread for this purpose: Allow fractional division of Full Attacks, and remove the restriction on which Full Round Actions can span round boundaries, so that Full Attacks can get the benefit of this as well.
By the way (and speaking of something sort of along the lines of Pathfinder 2.0), I made a mistake with the Kirthfinder BAB above -- what I posted above is actually wat the Barbarian gets (along with other non-Fighter full martials). The Fighter at 20th level gets +20/+20/+20/+20. (For comparison, the Kirthfinder Barbarian, Monk, and Ranger at 20th level get +20/+15/+15/+15, and the Kirthfinder Cleric at 20th level gets +15/+10/+10); the Fighter's lack of penalty is actually spelled out as a class feature that improves with level, so if you multiclass you can actually figure out what you get.
If you click on Fighter, note that while unfortunately they still only get 2 skill ranks per level (before Intelligence Modifier) (but they DO get Perception), they get Fighter Talents (starting at 1st level), with many Fighter archetypes and the Cavalier class and Eldritch Knight prestige class rolled into these (and these include Armor Training and Weapon Training), as well as some class features such as Ant Haul and easier qualification for feats that require a minimum ability score (deduct half your Fighter level from any ability score prerequisite for a feat), Grit (actually more like a hybrid of Gunslinger Grit/Swashbuckler Panache and Hero Points), Banner, flexibility in what weapons you use Weapon Focus/Specialization/etc. With, reduced effect of (eventually immunity to) Fatigue/Exhaustion, 1st Edition style ability to establish a stronghold, threat assessment, eventually free Weapon Versatility (and it improves later), and eventually Commanding Presence (Fighters are expected to become leaders when they advance enough).
FEEL THE POWER OF KIRTHFINDER! Discussion thread here.
I linked to the index of files (scroll down to Classes), because they have some other interesting stuff (for instance, Paladin is a prestige class instead of a base class, and Kirthfinder has a take on Monk that -- in broad brushstrokes, at least -- sort of combines Pathfinder Classic Monk with Pathfinder Unchained Monk), while each weapon has separately specified what you can get out of it if you have Simple, Martial, or Exotic Weapon proficiency with it, with even weapons considered Simple in Pathfinder gaining additional abilities (sometimes also extra damage and/or improved Critical) if you get Exotic proficiency with them (and for Bows, you need Exotic proficiency to get free action reload).
One thing interesting to note; I personally love the revised action economy from Pathfinder Unchained. I tested it out in non-campaign games and while it took some adjusting to compensate for some things I found it worked pretty well. At the worst melee combatants were drastically more dangerous which just turned into more minion monsters for them to plow through or any other way to generate more HP on the monster's side and the players valuing and abusing sources of temporary HP.
But in campaign mode, nobody wants to use it. Fresher players don't want to relearn the game just for one campaign and experienced players are kind of set in their ways. This makes me sad because I think the whole thing is way easier to keep track of and in my current campaign players still have trouble figuring out how the regular action economy works.
Unchained action economy is not enough. We need to go further.
Pathfinder meets RuneQuest.
Action points solve all problems!