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Hey there!
I'm starting a campaign soon as a GM. Except for one player, all PCs were built.
The one who's left has a "knife"-fighting character in mind, who uses these knives in meele and as throwing weapons. He imagines this char as a kind of juggler, but the juggler archetype of the bard isn't the way he wants the character (he doesn't like spellcasting and the group also has a bard).
The creation rules are the following:
- Stat array 16,14,14,12,12,10
- No multiclassing allowed
- Every PC gets one variant multiclass for free
- Only base races
- No occult stuff allowed
- starting at level 3
- bonus progression and background skills are used
- characters get two extra skill points (not per level) and two extra class skills
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I only have two concepts in mind (which both uses daggers):
1) A weapon master fighter that just focuses on the mastery of the dagger via flat-bonuses and a high amount of feats.
Feat-choices would be startoss featchain, ricochet toss, advanced weapon training (trained grace/throw) and the typical feats you'd expect.
2) A Unchained Rogue (Knife Master/Scout) that gets DEX to dmg for meele attacks and can sneak easier with charges/movement later.
Further, feats I have in mind here are Opening Volley and Charging Hurler. Ricochet toss and startoss style are things to aim for, but will be in reach later. Obviously this char has much more utility.
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As a GM I want to support his concept, so I'd like your advice. Especially on how to get advantages out of "switchhitting" with the same weapon.
Thank you in advance!
I think Knife Master Scout is the best knife build. I'd say the only downside I can see for a new player is that it requires a bit of tactical thinking. you're not a fighter or a barbarian who can jump into melee and just take the punishment. maybe if you allow the unchained rogue which gets dex to damage at third level, then your PC could put the 10 in strength and stick a 14 in Con. that could help him out a little.
but yeah, if you want a knife fighter build, I'd definitely go with the knife master rogue.
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I think Knife Master Scout is the best knife build. I'd say the only downside I can see for a new player is that it requires a bit of tactical thinking. you're not a fighter or a barbarian who can jump into melee and just take the punishment. maybe if you allow the unchained rogue which gets dex to damage at third level, then your PC could put the 10 in strength and stick a 14 in Con. that could help him out a little.
but yeah, if you want a knife fighter build, I'd definitely go with the knife master rogue.
Like I wrote, the UC Rogue is an option (so allowed ofc). The problem I see with the Rogue is, that the DEX damage only applies in meele.
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I totally forgot about Deific Obedience here. That's a good reason to stick with daggers. Not sure if it fits his concept.
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What do you guys think about a starknife instead of dagger? It has not the support like River Rat/Deific Obedience (except I'm missing something) but has double the range increment.
I think Knife Master Scout is the best knife build. I'd say the only downside I can see for a new player is that it requires a bit of tactical thinking. you're not a fighter or a barbarian who can jump into melee and just take the punishment. maybe if you allow the unchained rogue which gets dex to damage at third level, then your PC could put the 10 in strength and stick a 14 in Con. that could help him out a little.
but yeah, if you want a knife fighter build, I'd definitely go with the knife master rogue.
Like I wrote, the UC Rogue is an option (so allowed ofc). The problem I see with the Rogue is, that the DEX damage only applies in meele.
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I totally forgot about Deific Obedience here. That's a good reason to stick with daggers. Not sure if it fits his concept.
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What do you guys think about a starknife instead of dagger? It has not the support like River Rat/Deific Obedience (except I'm missing something) but has double the range increment.
true, but he's sneak attack has a range of 30 anyway. so more often than not he'll most likely be running into melee, especially if he's a scout as well. charging in for the sneak attack. and if he does want to throw the dagger within that 30 feet, at the end of the day he's only losing 3 damage, it may seem like a big deal early levels but later on when he's rolling 5d6 its not such a big deal. also, since you're the Gm you could always give out a magic item to give him dex to damage on ranged attacks with a knife.
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true, but he's sneak attack has a range of 30 anyway. so more often than not he'll most likely be running into melee, especially if he's a scout as well. charging in for the sneak attack. and if he does want to throw the dagger within that 30 feet, at the end of the day he's only losing 3 damage, it may seem like a big deal early levels but later on when he's rolling 5d6 its not such a big deal. also, since you're the Gm you could always give out a magic item to give him dex to damage on ranged attacks with a knife.
Actually, it will be easy to obtain those enchantments. He also only needs one later, 'cause of ricochet toss.
I'd also say, the Agile enchantment should give DEX to damage with thrown daggers:
Requirement: This special ability can be placed only on melee weapons usable with Weapon Finesse.
Agile weapons are unusually well balanced and responsive. A wielder with the Weapon Finesse feat can choose to apply her Dexterity modifier to damage rolls with an agile weapon in place of her Strength modifier. This modifier to damage is not increased for two-handed weapons, but is still reduced for off-hand weapons.
Dagger meets the requirements. It's a finessable melee weapon. In the effect text, nothing tells you about it only applies on melee damage rolls, while still telling about other restrictions.
It's maybe useless for the Rogue's melee attacks, 'cause he allready gets his DEX mod there, but for a +1 he can give it to his throw attacks, too - fair deal.
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Well, throwing outside of the 10ft range with a normal dagger is only giving you a -1 to hit per increment unless i remember the rules wrong.
So since diefic Obedience gives you a +2 it gives you the opportunity to throw x3 range increment and still give you the +2 to hit in melee. Then you get the better bab with fighter over rogue so the + to hit would be significantly higher with the fighter.
But, i might remember the throwing rules wrong, im uncertain.
*EDIT
I prefer the dagger over the starknife, Higher chance of crit will give the static damage a huge boost, and it fit my character concept better to have regular daggers instead of starknives which are essentially "ninja stars".
It's normally a -2 for every range increment, so it can add up quickly if you're throwing 40 feet away. Distance thrower will reduce penalties from distance by 2, and I could have sworn their was a feat to reduce the penalty to -1 per range increment, but I can't think of the name right now.
Over all the dagger will probably be the better weapon, with +1 trait damage and deific obedience for +2 to attack, but there will probably be some fights where the extra range of a starknife will be really handy.
My suggestion for class would be fighter (any that don't trade weapon training), Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain Warpriest (for weapon training again), or Flying Blade swashbuckler. Fighter and swashbuckler will probably do the most damage, but warpriest gets 6 level casting and swift action self spell on his self.
I wouldn't recommend the scout/knife master unless your player really wants to be a rogue. It will usually only have one good attack a round, provided the target isn't immune to sneak attack, which even with d8 sneak attack dice, likely won't keep pace with any of the 3 above making a full attack beyond 6th level (or the warpriest using Vital Strike). Also, until level 8, the scout is only getting auto sneak attack on a charge, which doesn't seem like the playstyle your player is looking for.
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Warpriest brings the spellcasting problem again. Probably nothing my player would prefer.
Swashbuckler/Flying Blade seems solid. A good alternative for the Fighter.
The feat you ment is Far Shot.
And yes, the combination of Deific Obedience/Far Shot/ Distance Thrower will give a good range without penalties.
I recently did a comparative build for Flying Blade Swashbuckler vs Fighter (no archetype) and I figured by level 10 the Swashbuckler is a much better knife thrower.
The fighter's AC winds up being 2 higher (due to being able to wear plate mail and still moving normally) and his Fort is higher. But the Swashbuckler's damage is significantly higher due to the +level bonus to damage.
(Replaced attributes are marked with a "->")
Fearless-> Fey Thoughts: pick two skills to have as favored class skills, probably Stealth and UMD.
Halfling Luck: +1 on all saves
Surefooted-> Fleet of Foot: 30' move speed instead of 20' move speed.
Weapon Familiarity: proficient with halfling weapons and slings
Keen Senses: +2 Perception
Strength: 12 (14-2; with +level to damage strength wont really be needed too much)
Dexterity: 18 (16+2)
Constitution: 12
Intelligence: 14
Wisdom: 10
Charisma: 14 (12+2; Charisma is needed for saves and pool points)
Trait 1) Freed Slave: +1 Will saves
Trait 2) Resilient: +1 Fort saves
1) Quickdraw
1S (S= Swashbuckler) : Weapon Finesse
3) Point Blank Shot (+1attack/damage <=30feet)
4S) Precise Shot
5) Rapid Shot (-2attack for extra attack)
7) Weapon Focus (+1attack)
8S) Weapon Specialization (+2damage)
9) Deadly Aim (-attack for +damage)
11) Improved Precise Shot (ignore concealment/cover)
12S) Point Blank Master (due to deed is optional)
13) Gr. Weapon Specialization (+2damage)
15) Startoss Style (+2damage)
16S) Startoss Comet (+2damage)
17) Startoss Shower (+2damage)
19) whatever....
20S) whatever...
If the player does not want to buy a Dagger of Doubling (+8k over a normal +1 dagger) or a Blinkback Belt (5k and belt can be merged with a regular stat boosting belt for an extra +2.5k; see CRB p553 "Adding New Abilities") then he can delay or swap out a feat for the feat Ricochet Toss.
A Fighter gets most of those bonus feats much earlier, but doesn't have the +level to damage.
However, a fighter with Armor Training has a +2 AC higher than a Swashbuckler (Mithral Full Plate and Armor Training vs Mithral Chain Shirt and Nimble)
As for range, the bonuses to range that the Flying Blade has makes much of that a non-issue. By level 10 the range increment of a Starknife is 35feet. The +level to damage is within 60feet so ultimately will try not to engage longer than 60' anyhow.
Regarding saves, the Swashbuckler loses on Fort vs the Fighter but makes up for it due to Charisma to saves (Charmed) as an immediate action.
Both the Swashbuckler and the Fighter have Weapon Training. They both has access to the same damage feats. The fighter gets them a bit faster (a bonus feat over the Swashbuckler every 4 levels starting at level 2) but the Swashbuckler has the extra damage from level..again. Oh, and the Swashbuckler gets a phantom feat that the fighter has to take at level 8 (Improved Critical).
As for advanced weapon training, which ones?
Focused weapon has an approximate average increase of +1damage every 5levels (+1.5 at level 15, +2 at level 20). So for example, a total of +3average damage at level 10. Compared to +10 at level 10 (optional +20 for one attack).
Trained Throw has the net effect of +1 at level 10, +2 at level 15, and +3 at level 20. Again, compared to +level (optional +20 for one attack) this is not really that much.
Swashbuckler Dagger @10 vs Fighter Dagger @10
We can assume they have all the same feats, but the Fighter will get them a bit faster. By level 10 the fighter will have a bonus feat @2 and @6 that the Swashbuckler didn't have (1st and 10th level feats are used getting feats the Swashbuckler gets for free).
So the Fighter adds +4 damage (Startoss style feats)
The Fighter also takes Focused Weapon and does 1d10 with his daggers instead of 1d4. That is an average increase of 3points per hit.
The Swashbuckler gets +10 from level (not counting the optional +10 for one hit per round while he has points to spare).
Advantage: Swashbuckler by 3 points.
On Armor Class the fighter has the swashbuckler beat by 2 points.
MFP = Armor of 9, max dex of +3 (+2AT by level 10) for a total of +14.
MCS = Armor of 4, max dex of +6 (+2 Dodge by level 10) for a total of +12.
Saves:
Fort: Fighter but Swashbuckler has Charmed Life which can level the playing field a bit.
Reflex: Swashbuckler
Will: Swashbuckler due to Charmed Life although the Fighter could use his Bravery ability as a bonus to Will saves if that is the Advanced Weapon Training option he chose (Armed Bravery).
Skills: Swashbuckler has more points, and better class skills (and doesn't have to use a trait to get Perception as a class skill).
The Fighter is the simpler build, the Swashbuckler is the slightly more damaging and interesting build. :)
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I thought "Swashbuckler Weapon Training" does not count as Weapon Training class feature. Also Gloves of Dueling are something that does not work on Swashbuckler, or?
That would change some of the numbers on level 10. Probably won't have Gloves of Dueling at level 10, though.
Then don't forget, that 17-20 crits seems to come often, but the precision damage won't get doubled.
Still it seems they are really close - and that good, so my players has some choices.
Gloves of Dueling counting or not is a GM call. Many (most?) GMs understand that they should count because the intent is that it is still a type of Weapon Training. If you are playing PFS, then no.
And you are right that the crits wont double the precision damage.
One other thing that the Swashbuckler has over the Fighter...range. The Fighter does not get bonus range to his daggers. For the Swashbuckler, by level 10 the dagger has a range increment of 25feet.
The range penalties may impact the fighter more and might force him to take feats to negate them and thus reduce the potential damage (can't take damage feats if taking range feats).
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Yes, I counted the range advantage to accuracy.
Let's not forget, that my player has a juggler-ish kind of character in mind. So I bet he thinks about acrobatic, maybe sleight of hand and that alike.
That's where a fighter with a low amount skill points (and class skills) also suffers compared to the swackbuckler.
Also if he imagines a charismatic character, swashbuckler would also be a bit better.
And to be honest, I'm the kind of GM, that thinks about Weapon Training being a Fighter thingy. I wouldn't allow similiar things counted as that, when they don't say so or have the same name - not 'cause I'm a jerk, I just think so it is intended that way and it would steal away the expertise of fighters somehow.
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Gloves of Dueling counting or not is a GM call. Many (most?) GMs understand that they should count because the intent is that it is still a type of Weapon Training. If you are playing PFS, then no.
And you are right that the crits wont double the precision damage.
One other thing that the Swashbuckler has over the Fighter...range. The Fighter does not get bonus range to his daggers. For the Swashbuckler, by level 10 the dagger has a range increment of 25feet.
The range penalties may impact the fighter more and might force him to take feats to negate them and thus reduce the potential damage (can't take damage feats if taking range feats).
I don't know why you'd have to guess at intention with weapon training. They have an FAQ explaining that if the ability says that it works like the fighter's weapon training, it counts as weapon training. If it doesn't, then it doesn't count as weapon training. Swashbuckler weapon training doesn't say it otherwise works as the fighter ability. If you really want a hint about intent, you can look at the Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain, which has weapon training, but is specifically forbidden from accessing advanced weapon training in PFS.
But the difference between AC and damage shouldn't be the deciding factor between fighter and swashbuckler, they should be pretty close. The deciding factors should be whether you want to play a character with a reliance on a mental stat or not, good ref vs good fort, 4 skill points and better class skills vs 2 skill points with a decent option to expand skills with advanced weapon training, and whether you want more class features or more bonus feats.
Nazrelle, Swashbucklers are part Fighters (Fighters are one of the parent classes). Up to you though.
One thing to consider, the Fighter is going to be spending a lot more coin than the Swashbuckler to achieve some of this (gloves are expensive). So that coin could go towards parity on the Swashbuckler in the form of strength increases etc.
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As Thrane just said a FAQ said swashbuckler weapon training count as weapon training so its RAI and RAW.
But regarding fighter versus swashbuckler it would seem more an issue of the style of character the player wished to play as they are distinctly different.
Show me this faq, because the only faq on it says if it doesn't mention fighter weapon training, or force you to choose a weapon group for weapon training, then it doesn't count as weapon training.
Swashbuckler weapon training doesn't do either of those, so it doesn't count as weapon training per raw. I'd also argue that because it doesn't have weapon groups, but instead all light and one handed piercing weapons, and it gives a bonus feat three levels early when normal weapon training doesn't, it's clearly not intended to count as fighter weapon training either.
Just a reminder, this isn't the rules forum nor is it a PFS advice thread (that I have been able to determine) so while it is good to know the rule, whether or not a GM wants to tweak the gloves to work with other forms of weapon training is up to the GM.
Personally, I think it is silly for an item written before a class was created to not be allowed to count, but that is just me.
Gloves of Dueling is basically the only really useful fighter-only magic item out there. I don't think there should be any problem having a magic item only fighters can use. Indeed, there's some archetypes that can't use the Gloves.
So Swashies not using them is completely in line with intentions. they do get + level to damage, you know? No need to be taking fighter's stuff.
==Aelryinth
Well seeing as you're using variant multi classing fighter is just the way to go for all the extra feats I think. Human too because more feats. Variant multi class in to Inquisitor just to get Judgement for extra bonuses every now and then. Don't really need an archetype either because the base fighter is great. Armour training will allow running around in full plate and taking maximum bonuses of dexterity eventually too. Also with this build it can very easily go Melee or Ranged (after level 9 though strictly ranged because Close Quarters Thrower is awesome) Stats should be
14str/16+2race=18dex/14con/12int/12wis/10cha
Feats
1 - Weapon Focus Starknife (extra range when throwing over the dagger, plus when it does crit it's x3 instead of x2 plus you can put the distance enchantment on it to make it's base range 40ft.)
1 - Point Blank Shot
1 - Precise Shot
2 - Quick Draw
4 - Weapon Specialization Starknife
5 - Deadly Aim
6 - Rapid Shot
8 - Dodge
9 - Close Quarters Thrower (would be picked up sooner if not for swapping out feats at 3 and 7 from variant multi classing. Such a good feat for any throw build)
10 - Greater Weapon Focus
12 - Greater Weapon Specialization
13 - Penetrating Strike
16 - Greater Penetrating Strike
Edit : Missed the for free part on Variant Multiclass sooooo...
LV3 - Deadly Aim
LV5 - Dodge
LV7 - Close Quarters Thrower
LV9 - Startoss Thrower
LV10- Startoss Comet
LV11- Startoss Shower
LV15- Greater Weapon Focus
They have an FAQ explaining that if the ability says that it works like the fighter's weapon training, it counts as weapon training. If it doesn't, then it doesn't count as weapon training. Swashbuckler weapon training doesn't say it otherwise works as the fighter ability.
Sorry, but could you please post a link or a date of the errata? I have not heard of it and cannot immediately find it. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qftq&page=11?Revised-Swashbuckler-Discussi on#530 and http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm seem to point in the other direction.
Mind you, according to the designer involved, it should be okay to have the equivalent of duelist gloves for Swashbucklers - and considering that they are meant to replace the duelist PrC, I´d call those the duelist gloves and use something like "weaponmaster´s gloves" for regular fighters.
A stupid question (which is seems everyone knows the answer to but me): How can you get Weapon Focus at 1st level and Weapon Specialization at Fighter 4?
From what I understood, you had to wait until the level AFTER you met the prerequisites to get the feat.
Just got the Humble Bundle, so I am a little behind.
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A stupid question (which is seems everyone knows the answer to but me): How can you get Weapon Focus at 1st level and Weapon Specialization at Fighter 4?
From what I understood, you had to wait until the level AFTER you met the prerequisites to get the feat.
Just got the Humble Bundle, so I am a little behind.
The prerequisite rules can get confusing. For feats, you can meet the prerequisites and take the feat at the same level. So if you get +1 BAB at first level, you can take weapon focus at first level, and a Fighter can take weapon specialization at level 4.
For prestige classes you have to meet the prerequisites before the level where you start the class. Arcane Archer has a prerequisite +6 BAB. So if I have +6 BAB at character level 8, then I can enter Arcane Archet at level 9.
You're going to feel like a lot of your questions are stupid, but they aren't. Everyone here was once struggling to understand the "basic" rules just like you are. And large parts of these boards are filled with experts who are still trying to resolve issues regarding the "basics." It's a complicated and imperfect game. Which is why it's interesting. :)
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To expand on Gisher's post, there is an order of operations when leveling up.
First, select class. Then apply class changes: BAB, Saves, Skill Ranks, Hit Dice, and class features. Then, select feats. Because you choose your class before you choose feats when leveling up (including 1st level) feats count the BAB, skill ranks, and so on from the level you took, where prestige classes do not.
There must be something like 6 different Advanced Weapon Training feats that are directly applicable to Daggers/thrown weapon build, as well as TWF and a trait.
Because of that, Weapon Master archetype is going to be needed, elsewise you won't be able to grab the needed number of feats.
Because fixed damage is high, you want to crit fish, so daggers are better then starknives. You want improved crit or Keen as soon as you can get it.
Let's see:
Weapon Finesse wasn't mentioned above.
Focused Weapon
Trained Grace
Trained initiative
Trained Throw
Not to mention Fighter's Reflexes and Armed Bravery. You should probably take Lore Warden for the skill points and free Expertise.
Versatile Training for Thrown weapons adds Perception and Acrobatics to your skills. How can you go wrong? That's like, the two best skills in the game.
If you take Trained Grace and Trained throw, you don't need the Weapon Spec tree...but it DOES all stack...
The worst part of such a build is VERY simple...the price of needing multiple throwing daggers! You'll need a blinkback belt just to offset this cost. Note that the Returning enhancement sucks...it gets the weapon back to you at the start of your next turn, instead of instantly like the blinkback belt (i.e. it should be a fixed cost enhancement on throwing weapons, since it sucks so much).
Note that weapon training for Thrown Weapons works even if you use the Thrown Weapon in Melee.
You still can't throw in a grapple, even with Close Quarters Thrower, so you need weapon finesse.
And you're really going to want TWF, so you can simply throw lots of daggers as needed. After all, you're unlikely to be using a shield, and you need to do something with your offhand.
And remember, you're a Thrown weapons specialist...if RANGE is a problem, just carry a longer range thrown weapon, like a javelin or sling. Your Dex is going to be high enough that hitting won't be a problem.
==Aelryinth
Yeah, but you're already feat starved.
For 5k, you can save a feat. That's going to be very key. Look at the fighter build above. It's already immensely feat intensive. I doubt even a fighter can take all the feats for a proper dagger build that he should.
You should be able to afford the belt by level 4 or 5. before then, I imagine you'll be doing mostly melee anyways, or simply using normal daggers to throw with.
A dagger build isn't going to really start taking off until you get more bonuses to hit. Fighters always start slow...they are the only melee class that doesn't start with a combat bonus!
==Aelryinth
Two counterpoints: Combining standard magic items is a standard part of the game rules. Pay the +50% and off you go. It's only really a problem for PFS.
Secondly, the original 3e OGL rules are still in effect, so you can 100% make Dexterity gauntlets instead of belts, if you like. Of course, that stops your gloves of dueling.
'Custom magic items' is generally implied when you start using the magic crafting rules to make unique items not in the books, and minmaxing thereby.
An Example is a DISMaL Ring: +1 Deflection, Insight, Sacred, Morale and Luck bonuses. Costs about 28k gp, but has the same effect as a 50k +5 Ring of Prot, for all practical purposes.
it follows the pricing/creation rules exactly, but completely bends the spirit of the rule to min/max gold and effect.
But given how expensive and useless Returning is on a weapon, not letting a TW build use a blinkback belt is just poor form.
Really, they should just come out with basic 'combined allowed magic items' to solve the issue for particular builds.
==Aelryinth
Here is my proposal:
Race: Human
Traits: Reactionary, Carefully Hidden
Class: Fighter (Mutation Warrior)
Str 14 Dex 16+2 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 10
1 - Point-blank shot, Deadly Aim, Quick draw
2 - Bravery +1, Precise Shot
3 - Mutagen, Far Shot
4 - Rapid Shot, +1 Dex
5 - Weapon Training (Thrown), Advanced Weapon Training (Versatile Training)
6 - Bravery +2, Ricochet Toss
7 - Mutagen Discovery (Vestigial Arm), Multiweapon Fighting
8 - Weapon Focus (StarKnife), +1 Dex
9 - Advanced Weapon Training (Trained Throw), Dodge
10 - Bravery +3, Advanced Weapon Training (Focused weapon)
11 - Mutagen Discovery (Vestigial Arm), Close-Quarters Thrower
12 - Improved critical, +1 Dex
13 - Advanced Weapon Training (Armed bravery), Clustered Shots
14 - Bravery +4, Improved Precise Shot
15 - Mutagen Discovery (Greater Mutagen), Advanced Weapon Training (Trained initiative)
16 - Weapon Specialization (StarKnife), +1 Dex
17 - Advanced Weapon Training (Trained Reflexes), Greater Weapon Focus (StarKnife)
18 - Bravery +5, Improved Initiative
19 - Mutagen Discovery (Grand Mutagen), Greater Weapon Specialization (StarKnife)
20 - Weapon Mastery (Starknife), Advanced Weapon Training (Weapon Sacrifice), +1 Dex
The build takes advantage of the extra arms gained through the mutagen discoveries to get multiweapon fighting which combined with rapid shot, gives up to 4 extra throws. This build comes fully online by 11th level,but it is perfectly operational by levels 5 to 7.
You pack damage by number of throws, and thanks to the extra arms, rapid shot and ricochet toss you can rain starknifed death very quickly.
From there, Trained throw, Deadly Aim and much later weapon specialization help pile up the damage.
Some of the Advanced Weapon Training options can be choosed in diferent order, especially if you want faster access to Armed Bravery or Focused Weapon.
At its full potencial, this build has all good saves, great initiative, 9 attacks per turn (if hasted), and get enough skills to be capable in more than knife throwing.
Alternatively, if you don't want to be a full thrower, you can ditch Close-Quarters Thrower and Dodge, and get Weapon Finesse, Power attack and switch one of the Advanced Weapon Training options for Trained Grace. Now you are equally competent both in melee and in ranged combat. The quicker way to do this is skip versatile training and far shor on early levels.
To expand on Gisher's post, there is an order of operations when leveling up.
First, select class. Then apply class changes: BAB, Saves, Skill Ranks, Hit Dice, and class features. Then, select feats. Because you choose your class before you choose feats when leveling up (including 1st level) feats count the BAB, skill ranks, and so on from the level you took, where prestige classes do not.
Thanks. Your explanation is much clearer than mine was.
I forgot about the variant multiclassing, if my understanding is right, by being free you mean you don't have to pay feats for it?
If that's so, my recomendation with the build I post above would be Rogue. If you can pull a surprise round or get invisible the amount of extra damage you can pile with your throws is insane.
Also, it works well as a concept of a ninja like warrior, and if you use the FBC to get skills, you get 6/level, plus the versatile training, plus the extra class skill you also get with the rules you listed, so the character can also make an excellent scout.
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They have an FAQ explaining that if the ability says that it works like the fighter's weapon training, it counts as weapon training. If it doesn't, then it doesn't count as weapon training. Swashbuckler weapon training doesn't say it otherwise works as the fighter ability.Sorry, but could you please post a link or a date of the errata? I have not heard of it and cannot immediately find it. http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2qftq&page=11?Revised-Swashbuckler-Discussi on#530 and http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm seem to point in the other direction.
Mind you, according to the designer involved, it should be okay to have the equivalent of duelist gloves for Swashbucklers - and considering that they are meant to replace the duelist PrC, I´d call those the duelist gloves and use something like "weaponmaster´s gloves" for regular fighters.
So clearly I need to phrase things better. That whole post was meant to say that swashbuckler weapon training doesn't count as fighter weapon training because it doesn't say it works as the weapon training class feature. There is no errata or dev comment that I know of that says otherwise.