Headless Horseman's Horse

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So I've been toying around with the idea for a bit here since a friend of mine has been planning to start up a game using only the Core Rulebook and APG available to players. The game is going to be run at level 5 perpetually which is an interesting idea. Not including items, this is what I've come up with so far (20 point buy)

Race - Half Orc.

2 levels in ranger (no archetype, natural weapon fighting style)
2 levels in barbarian (totem warrior)
1 level in Sorcerer / Inqusitior

Favoured Class Barbarian +2 rage rounds

Level 4 bonus in to either Wis or Cha?

STR 16
DEX 14
CON 14 + 2 Racial
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 10

Alternate Racial Traits

Sacred Tattoo (+1 lck bonus all saves)

Traits (unfortunately Fate's Favoured wasn't in the APG lol)
1 - Reactionary +2 Initiative
2 - Magical Knack +2 sorcerer / inquisitor casting class

1 - Power Attack
2 - Aspect of the Beast (claws / combat style bonus feat)
3 - Razortusk (kind of leaning for this over toothy since I get all the damage types with the bite this way)
5 - Extra Rage / Arcane Strike

Rage Power
1 - Lesser Fiend Totem (Gore)

(if inquisitor, deity Desna & Travel Domain)
(if sorcerer bloodline Draconic)

This build will give me 3 Natural attacks at all times, 4 when raging. I was leaning more towards Sorcerer for my 5th level for the Arcane strike as well as some minor casting (more than likely I'll end up in Mithral Breastplate so I'll have fairly low spell faliure at only 15%).

Also this unlocks the Robes of Arcane heritage which would give me my bloodline powers as a 5th level Sorcerer, maybe higher later on if wishes happen.

With Inquisitor there is no spell faliure, I get far more limited casting but I would also get 1 Judgement per day which could come in handy.

Would like some ideas on how I could improve this build or peoples views on Sorcerer vs. Inquisitor. Also looking for a way to get additional natural attacks using just the core rulebook and apg, but short of Wild Shape I don't think there is any way between these two books.

Edit : Small note. I did think about improved unarmed strike but taking -5 to hit with all my natural weapons could end up being pretty painful, as well as the -6/-6 to hit on the unarmed strikes if I were to TWF and without access to multiweapon mastery I didn't see a point.

Dragon Disciple is far better as a melee class because of the free stat buffs you get but here is my suggestion for a ranged Dragon Disciple build. This does rely on you being allowed to play Bloodrager in your game though!

Race - Half Orc

5 Lv. Bloodrager / 1 Lv. Fighter / 4 Lv. Dragon Disciple

Favoured Class Bloodrager, +5 Rage Rounds

STR 10 + 4 = 14 (+4 from Dragon Disciple bonuses)
DEX 14 + 4 = 18 (2 from racial, 2 from leveling)
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 08
CHA 14

1 - Point Blank Shot
1 - Endurance (trades out Half - Orc Intimidating)
3 - Precise Shot
4 - Enchew Materials (bonus bloodrager)
5 - Rapid Shot
6 - Manyshot (bonus fighter)
7 - Weapon Focus Comp. Longbow
8 - Improved Initiative (bloodline Dragon Disciple)
9 - Deadly Aim

Pretty basic feat list. As for your spells, you'll have access to second level spells.

1st level - Shield, True Strike, Mage Armor (never know when you're going to fight something incoporeal), ????
2nd level - False Life, Cat's Grace or Bull's Strength

As for your gear, just standard stuff. Stat belts, stat headband. The most important thing though is to get your composite longbow up to a +1 then make it adaptive (1000gp addon). This is important since you'll have access to Bloodrage which will raise your strength and allow you to take full advantage of the bonus without taking negatives for setting the strength to high if you run out of rage rounds (or just don't feel you need to spend them that combat).

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1 level of as many classes as possible.

Nonlethal weapons are always a good option of course for subduing.

You could also use a heavy hitting weapon like a Great Sword and put Merciful on it, weapon enhancement that not only makes it do non - lethal (can be turned on / off with command word IIRC) but it does an extra 1D6 damage.

As for retraining an opponent being a good grapple character can help. There are rules to tie up up your opponents when you have them pinned, unconscious or otherwise restrained where the escape check is vs your grapple CMB (this is why having a decent grapple check helps) + 20. Also if the DC is higher than 20 + the targets CMB they can't escape, even on a natural 20 (they can just burst the ropes with a strength check still if you use rope, so make sure to have good quality rope if you plan to use it. Chains work too, they have a burst DC of 26 which is going to be hard for a lot of creatures to make)

Instead of not allowing detect magic perhaps make it a 1st level spell? I had a DM who ran a lower magic setting a couple years back. I remember he said 0 level spells did not exist, but upgraded a few choice ones to 1st level with their same effect so they weren't really a shortcut since you had to give up spell slots if you wanted to use them (which early level can be a pain). The spells I remember he made 1st level were...

Detect Magic, Create Water, Detect Poison, Stabilize

Also any creature who needed it could cast read magic at will. That's about all I remember from that game though but perhaps it will give you some ideas. Detect Magic being banned is pretty rough because I don't think there is actually a way to know what items are magic without it, or to even identify them. Even if you have an NPC who offers the service that's still a GP cost (not a big one for a 0 level and 1st level spell since you probably want a low level caster using identify, or a higher level caster can even still get "bad rolls", but still adds up after a bit)

Sacred Weapon (Su): At 1st level, weapons wielded by
a warpriest are charged with the power of his faith. In addition to the favored weapon of his deity,
the warpriest
can designate a weapon as a sacred weapon by selecting
that weapon with the Weapon Focus feat; if he has multiple
Weapon Focus feats, this ability applies to all of them.
Whenever the warpriest hits with his sacred weapon, the
weapon damage is based on his level and not the weapon
type. The damage for Medium warpriests is listed on Table
1–14; see the table below for Small and Large warpriests.

The warpriest can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of the sacred weapon damage—
this must be declared before
the attack roll is made. (If the weapon’s base damage exceeds
the sacred weapon damage, its damage is unchanged.) This
increase in damage does not affect any other aspect of the
weapon, and doesn’t apply to alchemical items, bombs, or
other weapons that only deal energy damage.

The sacred weapon dice is based off the size of the warpriest, not the size of the weapon. Impact, bashing and other such enchants will have no effect. Spells like lead blades will have no effect because they make the damage of the WEAPON go up as though it was 1 size larger. Spells like Strong Jaw would work though because they make the weapons deal damage as though the CREATURE were larger.

If you have a medium sized Bashing Heavy Shield you turn a D4 weapon in to a D8 weapon if I read the FAQ correctly on the size modifiers because it checks the initial size of the weapon, not the initial then the modified. A level 1 Warpriest with weapon focus Heavy Shield can do either 1D6 as per his sacred weapon dice, or 1D8 as per the Bashing Heavy Shield's damage dice.

I'm not the greatest at explaining things but hopefully this helps.

Thanks for the input, that's a good way to do it.

The revised action economy does a fairly good job of explaining things but one thing I can't really find an explanation for is Rapid Shot and Many Shot. Many shot only triggers on a full attack action and Rapid Shot gives you an extra attack at your full BAB at the cost of giving -2 to all your attacks.

The way I see Rapid Shot working is it just gives you an extra act (like haste but not stacking with haste) for a single attack but then I don't understand how the -2 on all attacks would work now. TWF only applies on the attack you choose to TWF to my understanding so I guess that extra act would be at a -2.

Many shot though is interesting because you need to make a full attack. Under the revised action economy I can't see how to make it work because if you only choose to make one attack and then do other stuff it shouldn't work.

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Something I've been actually tinkering with is a Warpriest who uses a Monk's Spade (all 3 damage types in 1 weapon is nice even if it is only a 20x2 crit plus you can adapt the build to any weapon by just swapping out quick draw for an exotic feat if you want an exotic double weapon). Built him on a 20pt. buy to level 6. Generally I only build characters to 6 to see how they turn out and this is what I've gotten so far.

Human Warpriest of Gorum (FCB 6/6 Bonus Combat Feat)
Str 14, Dex 17 (16+1L4), Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14 (12+2 Human), Cha 7

Blessings - Destruction & War

1 - Weapon Focus Monk's Spade, Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Reflexes
3 - Power Attack, Dual Enhancement
5 - Quick Draw (I like quick draw, I usually work it in to builds. eventually buy a ranged weapon once he gets more wealth from adventuring. has spiritual weapon until then)
6 - Improved Two Weapon Fighting, Lunge
Fates Favored, Reactionary

Not so much getting his damage from Str as he is buffs. Destruction blessing for +3 damage, Divine Favour for +3 to hit and Damage, Sacred Weapon to enhance both ends with Dual Enhancement. War Blessing can help on attack rolls if needed, or better positioning.

LV6 Wealth of 16,000g
4620g +1/+1 Monk's Spade
5400g +1 Mithril Agile Breastplate
2000g Handy Haversack
750g Wand of Cure Light
1000g Muleback Cords
2000g Ring of Protection +1 (not really needed with shield of faith, but still nice to have because you probably want more divine favors)
230g remaining for adventuring supplies

Saldiven wrote:

Mithral Kikko is better than the Breastplate, even, for dex based characters. (Assuming the campaign allows Easter weapons/armor.)

It has one lower AC but one higher Dex mod allowed, giving the same potential AC. It also has one lower Armor Check penalty, which is completely removed by being Mithral. This means you don't have to use a trait slot on Armor Expert to get the penalty down to 0 (which most do with the Breastplate), freeing up that trait slot for something else.

The Kikko is also 170gp cheaper than the Breastplate, though that's less significant when you get to the point that you're buying Mithral armor.

Kikko and Four Mirror got their prices increased in the second printing of the ultimate equipment. They now cost 250g and 125g respectively.

I can see why you would want to go the focused shot route, but it's only going to be adding 4 damage plus you can't Vital Strike with it as those are both their own actions. It also has a limiter of 30ft. itself. You also say you like having a lot of skill points. Rogue and high int are great for this. If I were to make a Rogue Sniper build using crossbows, this would be my take on it. Eventually you get in to vital strike at level 9 or you go the full attack route for the extra sneak attack dice (Built to L6 w/ 25 point buy. Assuming only CRB / APG. I did notice you had Expert Sniper from Dirty Tactics Toolbox but I wanted to keep the build simple. Plus you have to remember in combat you don't take penalties on your stealth, where as enemies have a -10 perception so once you hit LV10 you can always pick up the Stealthy Sniper advanced talent)

Halfling Rogue (No Archetype seeing as Sniper Goggles are great. You'll want to get these early anyways and giving up trapfinding, which most archetypes with the rogue do, is rough in certain settings)

Alternate Racial Swift as Shadows

STR 12 - 2 Race = 10
DEX 16 + 2 Race = 18 + 4
CON 12 = 12 + 1 (I don't like making characters with < 12 Con)
INT 17 + 1 LV4 = 18 + 4
WIS 10 = 10
CHA 8 + 2 Race = 10


1 - Point Blank Shot
2*- Precise Shot

3 - Rapid Reload (appropriate Crossbow, preferably heavy for the D8 dmg)

5 - Rapid Shot (if you want to go crossbow Mastery at level 7) or Stealthy (+2 bonus on stealth, +4 at 10 ranks. Same on Escape Artist. A bit more versatile than Skill Focus. Seeing as you have the +4 for being small too you don't really need the full +6)

6*- Weapon Focus Appropriate Weapon

Rogue Talents

2 - Combat Trick Precise Shot
4 - Sniper's Eye
6 - Weapon Training or Minor Magic to get Major Magic at 8

I know it's kind of a mess to read but hopefully I laid it out well enough.

I've always thought Darkleaf armour was pretty good myself. There is also the Celestial Armour in the core rulebook. It's a Chainmail that is considered light armour, has a max dex of +8 and counts as +3. -2AC Penalty, 15% arcane spell faliure (you can get a wizard in to this pretty easy and with arcane armour training 1 you can use your swift action to lower that to 5%) and gives you fly once per day. It is pretty costly though being a specific magic armour, costing a total of 22,400g. You won't find this in most cities. The base value of a metropolis is only 16,000 so you'd have to be lucky enough to find one as a random roll in the city or craft it yourself.

If you're worried about weapon / armour profs. then dip 1 level of fighter (all the profs. you'll need, +1BAB, free bonus feat)

DethBySquirl wrote:

What are you hoping to accomplish with the Drow feats? I'm not sure how beneficial the SLAs are on a class that doesn't necessarily have the tools to take the most advantage of them, especially since the DCs will be pretty low.

If you're looking for raw versatility, make sure you pick up the main prereq feats for various chains. Power Attack, Point Blank Shot, and Improved Unarmed Strike are the three most likely to be useful. Also, because the archetype loses out on Weapon Training, consider picking up Martial Focus so you can grab the weapon mastery feats.

Well having the SLAs will be handy because none of them rely on having a DC, just caster level checks. Being able to stop foes from going invisible is nice, as well as shrouding everything in darkness seeing as I would have darkvision.

Also it unlocks the Noble Spell Resistance, which would give me spell resistance as a Fighter. This is one of the main draws of going down the drow chain. It would also open up the Umbral Scion feats, and 2/day Dispel Magic may not be much but it can come in handy. I already would have a constant Detect Magic and I can still invest in spellcraft as a fighter so the character can recognize more obvious threats.

This is something I've been working on a little in my spare time. Just a fun project. I enjoy playing straight fighters. They are always useful to a group but with this guy I wanted to give him a bit more utility to function on his own. Any advice / critique would be appreciated.

Keeping the build to level 7 with a 20 point buy. I don't want to over plan this guy.

Half - Elf "Martial Master" Fighter.

Str 14 + 2 Race = 16 / Dex 14 / Con 14 / Int 10 / Wis 12 + 1 Level 4 = 13 / Cha 13

1 - Half-Drow Paragon
1 - Power Attack
2 - Improved Bravery
3 - Drow Nobility
4 - Dodge
5 - Drow Nobility, Improved
6 - Vital Strike
7 - Drow Nobility, Greater

I don't have anything really in the way of offense (minus power attack & vital strike because those are useful no matter what I pick up) because I can use Martial Flexibility to pick that stuff up. I was thinking perhaps dropping Dodge for Point Blank Shot just because that way I can use Martial Flexibility to get down that feat line easier later on.

Yeah for sure. I didn't mention the Noble Spell Resistance just because I personally don't like it. It stops you from being healed if you need to be in a pinch. Yes you can lower your own SR as a standard action, but sometimes that may just be to long.

If you're not dead set on Elven Spirit I would suggest looking at Half-Drow Paragon and the Drow feats (provided you're DM will let you).

You would need a 13 Charisma at least to get down the Drow Nobility line which can grant you access to quite a few SLAs which can come in handy.

Detect magic ends up becoming Constant. The following SLAs end up at will. Dancing Lights, Deeper Darkness, Faerie Fire, Feather Fall, Levitate.

If you go 13 Charisma and Wisdom you can then get access to the 2 Umbral Scion feats which give you (eventually) 2 uses of Dispel Magic (or one of the other 2 SLAs), 1 use of divine favour and suggestion per day.

I personally think this is an interesting feat chain, maybe not for a wizard as much but more so perhaps a martial character even. Giving a fighter access to a lot of these SLAs is definitely interesting.

Azullius Koujou wrote:

Strongjaw seems to target all of the natural attacks as well so yeah it would be nice to have.

Unfortunately It'll probably be to expensive in a wand and I don't think I got much of a chance of finding it at my mostly Sorcerous spell list.
Dragon Disciple.

atm I got a lot of multiclassing going:
1 lvl Bloodrager(Some Bab and more Dragon Bloodline+ bloodrage)
1 lvl Oracle (Lunar for cha to AC & Reflex instead of dex)
3 lvl Sorcerer (Draconic Gold Bloodline)
5 lvl Dragon Disciple(Favored Class)

lvl 1 starting Attributes:

Str 17, Dex 7, Con 14, Int 12, Wis 14, Cha 16

with availible gear at lvl 10

Str 25, Dex 7, Con 16, Int 12, Wis 16, Cha 18

I suppose I could drop a lvl of Sorcer for a lvl of Feral Hunter.

What do you guys think/Suggest?

Prestige classes can't be favoured classes.

Go look at the Bolt Ace archetype for the Gunslinger. Dex to damage at 5th level (which is when fighters normally get weapon training without an archetype), which is also their hit stat and AC. Also by spending Grit they can hit Touch AC with crossbows.

Then you have Crossbow Mastery (APG feat) which doesn't take much to get in to and allows you to reload one kind of crossbow (minus the double crossbow) as a free action allowing full attacks very easily, and also reloading the selected crossbow doesn't provoke attacks. 19-20x2 crit which bows don't have either. Crossbows are a very valid option.

Even before Bolt Ace they were. You trade off the Str to damage for a higher crit range. Better chance for critical effects and enchantments to go off. Inquisitors are automatically proficient in all crossbows too (also APG) and can bane anything pretty easily for extra damage dice.

You can also fire crossbows while prone, which you can't do with bows.

You can TWF with a Greatsword, you just need 2 levels of Barbarian so you can wield it 1 handed (or was it 3 levels? Can't remember when they get Jountgrip)

Master summoner can have unlimited creatures summoned as long as his Eidolon is dismissed with his ability. Having 5 isn't that much.

Also, 1min/level is still what I'd go with. With the amount of uses you're going to have even at 1min/level it should still be useful.

Predator Form (SU) - Shouldn't be available until level 4. Wild Shape is pretty strong. Alters Wild Shape.

Strength of the Fallen (SLA) - Should be 3 + Wisdom Mod looking at other classes. Also, should only be 1 minute / Level. 5 Minutes / Level is insane. Replaces Natures Bond

Leader of the pack (SU) - Have it start at 9 and scale every 3 levels after. 12 / 15 / 18. Eventually 5 active summons. Replaces Venom Immunity

Wild Call (EX) - Replaces Woodland Stride

Drop the free spell focus conjuration

3 wizard 3 cleric 7 theurge.

2ndGenerationCleric wrote:
Zuloph wrote:

I played a really fun "melee" ranged character. He couldn't get flanking, but could run right up in to the front lines with crossbows or bows depending on how he was built. Now, Snap Shot isn't quite as good since the nerf (10ft threat range instead of 15) but it is still fun. Here is a list of feats to work towards.

Weapon Focus
Rapid Reload (if going the crossbow route)
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Master
Many Shot (if going the bow route)
Crossbow Mastery (if going the crossbow route. heavy crossbows are nice)
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat Reflexes

Other feats you can just fill out with what you want. I definitely prefer the crossbow route myself. Haven't had a chance to play this character since Bolt Ace was introduced but if I were to build it now it would probably look something like this (built as a hobgoblin for your convenience on a 20 point buy to level 13. 5 Bolt Ace / 8 Weapon Master Heavy Crossbow)

Str 12 Dex 17 + 2R + 3L = 22 Con 12 + 2R = 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
1 - Point Blank
3 - Precise
4 - Rapid Reload Heavy Crossbow
5 - Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery
7 - Weapon Focus Heavy Crossbow
7 - Snap Shot
9 - Weapon Specialization Heavy Crossbow
9 - Point Blank Master
11 - Improved Snap Shot
11 - Improved Critical Heavy Crossbow
13 - Combat Reflexes
13 - Greater Snap Shot

Oh wow, that's almost what I'd built, except I had gone light to free up a feat for iron will, had a 25 pt buy, and only went up to level 9. Might have to give it another look after all... just when I'd made my mind lol

Well for a 25 Point buy I'd just bump the Wisdom to a 16. That's +1 Will save and +1 Grit point. You could also drop the Cha to a 7 and bump Int to a 12 just for the extra skill rank / level. Really makes it so you don't need Iron Will.

The great thing about this build too is it's also picking up all your ranged stuff first. By LVL9 You are firing and reloading without provoking too which is perfect.

I played a really fun "melee" ranged character. He couldn't get flanking, but could run right up in to the front lines with crossbows or bows depending on how he was built. Now, Snap Shot isn't quite as good since the nerf (10ft threat range instead of 15) but it is still fun. Here is a list of feats to work towards.

Weapon Focus
Rapid Reload (if going the crossbow route)
Rapid Shot
Point Blank Master
Many Shot (if going the bow route)
Crossbow Mastery (if going the crossbow route. heavy crossbows are nice)
Snap Shot
Improved Snap Shot
Combat Reflexes

Other feats you can just fill out with what you want. I definitely prefer the crossbow route myself. Haven't had a chance to play this character since Bolt Ace was introduced but if I were to build it now it would probably look something like this (built as a hobgoblin for your convenience on a 20 point buy to level 13. 5 Bolt Ace / 8 Weapon Master Heavy Crossbow)

Str 12 Dex 17 + 2R + 3L = 22 Con 12 + 2R = 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 8
1 - Point Blank
3 - Precise
4 - Rapid Reload Heavy Crossbow
5 - Rapid Shot
6 - Crossbow Mastery
7 - Weapon Focus Heavy Crossbow
7 - Snap Shot
9 - Weapon Specialization Heavy Crossbow
9 - Point Blank Master
11 - Improved Snap Shot
11 - Improved Critical Heavy Crossbow
13 - Combat Reflexes
13 - Greater Snap Shot

If you're concerned with the damage dice of your armour spikes go Warpriest and put your free weapon focus in armour spikes. Bam, they are now a sacred weapon and end up being 2D8 Weapons eventually.

Edit. You also get access to magic and can swift cast things like Divine Favour or Divine Power for extra to hit and damage. Take Fates Favoured and that Divine Favour is eventually +4 to hit and damage.

I am actually playing a character like this right now. He is a Monk. He actually has a split personality that was brought on due to an injury. He has the same ability score in both personalities because switching personalities shouldn't magically change how your body works (I actually sold his Int to a 7 for the flavour of the character too as his injury kind of knocked some screws loose as it were).

As such I am having his Ki Powers and Monk bonus feats be the same in each personality but each of them have different feat chains to show their different fighting styles.

One is a brawler type monk, just attacking with his unarmed strikes while the other is a grapple character.

The thing I had trigger his switches is just a 20% chance upon being hit with any sort of physical damage, or force spells. Our game doesn't run called shots so I figured a 20% chance of being hit hard enough to trigger a switch was pretty good and my DM was cool with that.

We just got to level 6 too and I got a sweet ability because of this character. As long as I spend 8 hours meditating each week the personalities are beginning to come together and understand each other because of an NPC we met and now I can switch personalities as a standard action for 4 Ki points and taking damage can no longer cause him to switch.

The character has been super fun to play and I get the added bonus of freaking out NPCs now that I can switch personalities.

pipedreamsam wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Huh. Somehow I missed this change. That is a big difference in terms of area covered. A 15' radius not only let you collect more AoOs, it also made it easier to grant flanking bonuses to your melee party members.

Flanking specifically calls out melee weapons, so you could not flank while using a bow even if you threaten.

CRB Combat Section wrote:
When making a melee attack, you get a +2 flanking bonus if your opponent is threatened by another enemy character or creature on its opposite border or opposite corner.
Relevant FAQ on the gang up feat and flanking with a ranged weapon

You can still grant flanking without benefiting from it

_Ozy_ wrote:

Except it uses basically the same language as the original Spell Combat, which was FAQ'd to work with Haste, saying that using all of your attacks counts as a full attack action, even if you don't actually use the full attack action.

So, why would you run Ranged differently?

Edit: replied before your edit. :)

Haha no worries. I made the post before looking around a bit more.

Gisher wrote:
Zuloph wrote:

At 11th level, a myrmidarch can spend a full-round action

to cast a spell that includes multiple ranged touch attacks
and deliver more than one using ranged attacks.

Ranged spellstrike in this manner is already a full round action. No rapid shot, haste would work though.

Yes, it is a full-round action. The issue here is about the attacks made as part of that full round action.

Benefit: When making a full-attack action with a

ranged weapon, you can fire one additional time this
round at your highest bonus. All of your attack rolls take a
–2 penalty when using
Rapid Shot.

You aren't making the full attack action, you're using Ranged Spellstrike. Ranged spellstrike lets you make as many attacks as you could make in a full attack, you still need to take the action to use rapid shot so you can't use it with ranged spellstrike. I actually read haste again too.

When making a full attack action, a hasted creature may make
one extra attack with one natural or manufactured weapon. The
attack is made using the creature’s full base attack bonus, plus any
modifiers appropriate to the situation. (This effect is not cumulative
with similar effects, such as that provided by a speed weapon, nor
does it actually grant an extra action, so you can’t use it to cast a
second spell or otherwise take an extra action in the round.)

It also calls out the full attack action, meaning it doesn't even work with Ranged Spellstrike. I thought it did until I just reread it.

Edit : Just read the spell combat FAQ. I guess haste would still work. It's a different ability but because haste was also changed a bit then it works.

At 11th level, a myrmidarch can spend a full-round action
to cast a spell that includes multiple ranged touch attacks
and deliver more than one using ranged attacks.

Ranged spellstrike in this manner is already a full round action. No rapid shot, haste would work though.

onesacker15 wrote:
Thanks guys for all your answers. After reading the discussion I may just go with the weapon finesse/piranha strike. It seems to make a little more sense for my character and the gnomes -2 to strength will not affect me as much. Natural weapons such as bite and claws are considered light weapons, correct?

All natural weapons are considered light weapons for weapon finesse yes

Deighton Thrane wrote:
Zuloph wrote:
An enhancement to your ability score is not your ability score. Your Mutagen is giving you an alchemical bonus to your strength. Your strength is still 11 and his temporary strength is 15.
Now, this isn't always true. If a bonus is considered a permanent bonus, then it can be used to qualify for feat pre-requisites. However things like Mutagen or Rage aren't permanent bonuses, so they can't be used to qualify for the feat.

Yes but what bonuses become permanent? The only ones I can think of are inherent which can be gained in a few different ways. There is no way to shut these off and thus this makes a new permanent score.

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When selecting a feat such as Power Attack, it says that the prerequisite is 13 strength. Near the start of the feats section


Some feats have prerequisites. Your character must have the indicated ability score, class feature, feat, skill, base attack bonus, or other quality designated in order to select or use that feat. A character can gain a feat at the same level at which he gains the prerequisite.

A character can't use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables.

The Important line here is

Your character must have the indicated ability score

An enhancement to your ability score is not your ability score. Your Mutagen is giving you an alchemical bonus to your strength. Your strength is still 11 and his temporary strength is 15.

Well seeing as you're using variant multi classing fighter is just the way to go for all the extra feats I think. Human too because more feats. Variant multi class in to Inquisitor just to get Judgement for extra bonuses every now and then. Don't really need an archetype either because the base fighter is great. Armour training will allow running around in full plate and taking maximum bonuses of dexterity eventually too. Also with this build it can very easily go Melee or Ranged (after level 9 though strictly ranged because Close Quarters Thrower is awesome) Stats should be

1 - Weapon Focus Starknife (extra range when throwing over the dagger, plus when it does crit it's x3 instead of x2 plus you can put the distance enchantment on it to make it's base range 40ft.)
1 - Point Blank Shot
1 - Precise Shot
2 - Quick Draw
4 - Weapon Specialization Starknife
5 - Deadly Aim
6 - Rapid Shot
8 - Dodge
9 - Close Quarters Thrower (would be picked up sooner if not for swapping out feats at 3 and 7 from variant multi classing. Such a good feat for any throw build)
10 - Greater Weapon Focus
12 - Greater Weapon Specialization
13 - Penetrating Strike
16 - Greater Penetrating Strike

Edit : Missed the for free part on Variant Multiclass sooooo...

LV3 - Deadly Aim
LV5 - Dodge
LV7 - Close Quarters Thrower
LV9 - Startoss Thrower
LV10- Startoss Comet
LV11- Startoss Shower
LV15- Greater Weapon Focus

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I use notepad.

THUNDER_Jeffro wrote:
elcaleeb wrote:

Looking a little deeper

Dire lion = 8 HD
Ogre = 4 HD
Bunyip = 5 HD
Total of 17 HD.
as per Animate Dead - No matter how many times you use this spell, however, you can control only 4 HD worth of undead creatures per caster level.

I actually didn't look at the HD until now. Also, my understanding that while you can create bloody skeletons with the animate dead spell, they count as twice their HD when casting the spell. So at level 4 he couldn't have created the Bunyip bloody skeleton or the Dire Lion bloody skeleton, even if he had access to the spell.

Or Audit his character and make sure everything actually is correct. This works too. Failed to read his level and stuff in the initial post.

Throw some clerics in to the fray and have them channel a bunch to damage undead. There are ways of giving clerics the ability to channel both positive and negative. If Bill is causing problems and the DM is running Emerald Spire by the book then it's about time he starts making some changes to the module and throwing in some custom encounters. I'm not saying just play a hate game against Bill but throw stuff in that would pose a challenge to him and allow the rest of the group a chance to do things too. Or you could just go to the old fall back. Rocks fall, Bill dies.

I wanted to build a natural weapon fighter and I'm looking at ways to get additional natural attacks on my base character, no rage powers / bloodline abilities that just give them temporarily.

Currently I'm looking at Tengu with the Beak and Claws for a total of 3 attacks or a Half Orc with Toothy and a 2 level dip in ranger (or anything else that grants ranger fighting styles if someone has a suggestion) for Aspect of the Beast (Claws).

I can't see any other way really of picking up something else. A slam attack somehow would be nice. The plan is to take this guy 2 ranger (if I go the Half Orc route which would open up Orc / Human feats) then just straight fighter with the Unarmed Fighter Archetype just because I like it and want a fun way of using it.

I can use Celestial Armour along with an Agile amulet of Mighty Fists or going the Slashing Grace route with Martial Versatility to have it apply to all my natural attacks (not sure if the Slashing Grace option actually works. It says it doesn't work when fighting with two weapons but natural attacks and weapons are two different things so it should unless I'm missing something).

Any advice on gaining extra natural attacks that I'm missing would be nice but quite honestly 3 is pretty nice too, especially when I'm going to be fighting with full BAB.

Edit : Oh yeah, I already have an idea in ind for a point buy and feats but feel free to leave suggestions. Perhaps I'll see something interesting that I missed. LV5 start, 20 Point Buy.

Bashing Shield, 1000g for +1, an additional 3000g to get the bashing. 4000g total, plus the cost of the shield itself. All shields are weapons. You can then enchant it as a weapon, for the cost of doing so. +1 Weapons are 2000g. You still however only have a +1 weapon because bashing only makes it act as a +1 weapon for things like overcoming DR. Total price, 6000g for a shield that does damage as if it were 2 size categories larger. At this point though you can continue to enhance it as a weapon and a shield. Just make sure you have the Improved Shield Bash feat if you want to keep your AC

Are you set on Saurian? I mean they are decent but I've played Master Summoners before and I personally prefer to go with Half-Orc just because of the Ferocious Summons. It can really add a lot of extra hits to your summons especially with the free Augment Summoning the Master Summoner gets plus once you start summoning mammoths and stuff with big con. You really don't need skill ranks either as a summoner because you have your eidolon as a skill monkey but this is all just suggestion. Feel free to use from it what you please or disregard it all.

Also as for my build suggestion (Not sure what sort of point buy you're using, I looked at your base stats and I count 24) so I'll build with 20 which is what I built Mine at and you can alter it as you see fit.

STR 10
DEX 14
CON 14
INT 10
WIS 10
CHA 16 +2race+1lvl=19

1 - Spell Focus Conjuration
2 - Augment Summoning
3 - Evolved Summoned Monster
5 - Ferocious Summons

I don't like picking up superior summoning until level 7 because then you have access to Summon Monster 4 which is where it really starts becoming useful to summon multiple creatures.

As for the Eidolon

Feat - Skill Focus - UMD

Evolution points, 4.
Skilled Use Magic Device -1 point
Skilled Perception -1 Point
Skilled Disable Device -1 Point
Scent -1 Point

Skills (8 Points)
You get to choose 4 skills to become class skills, I generally choose Use Magic Device, Disable Device, Heal, and then whatever for the last one.

Perception 2 + 3 Trained + 8 Skilled = 13 (higher with scent bonuses when they apply)
Use Magic Device 2 + 3 trained + 3 Feat + 8 Skilled = 16 (only need to get this to an 18 if you're just making him a wand monkey but you can put it higher too for scrolls)
Disable Device 2 + 3 Trained + 1 Dex + 8 Skilled = 14
Heal 2 + 3 Trained (eventually +8 skilled, I like picking up scent first so he can be a tracker too) = 5

As for spells (you don't need Mage Armour BTW, you can wear light armour without incurring the normal arcane spell failure as a Summoner)

0 - Detect Magic, Mage Hand, Open/Close, Message, Mending, Guidance (bumps your eidolons UMD to a 17 at this point. Really good for wands, only a 10% fail chance with this)
1 - Shield, Infernal Healing (10hp of healing if needed), Feather Fall, Expeditious Retreat
2 - Haste, Glitterdust, Invisibility

Not sure why you listed 3rd level spells, or a 4th 2nd level spell on your list. You don't get access to 3rd level spells until level 7 at which point I take Fly and generally Greater Invisibility. Fly is moreso for yourself but Greater Invisibility is really fun to throw on a fighter on your team or a rogue too. Just a great support spell.

Edit : Oh and pick up Barkskin once you get access to your 4th 2nd level spell. Great AC bonus for yourself, I also generally get natural armour from my eidolon too once I can steal it's evolution points.

CryntheCrow wrote:
Blakmane wrote:

It's not a natural attack, so it doesn't have to be a 'generic' natural attack - It's neither because it isn't a natural attack. It is only treated as a natural attack in a very specific set of circumstances. Assuming primary OR secondary would massively complicate the issue because these classifications come with a whole additional set of baggage attached.

You're still stuck on this idea that is has to be labelled. It doesn't any more than a longsword needs to be labelled a primary or secondary natural attack. The rule exists so that feats which boost your natural attack (or spells like magic fang, although yes that one works on unarmed anyway) can also apply to your unarmed strikes. You could do the same thing with a longsword, or any manufactured weapon, by changing a few words. It does this just fine without needing to be primary or secondary.

If a longsword could be a two-handed weapon or a one-handed weapon, then yes, any class ability saying 'x counts as a longsword' should actually say 'x counts as a two-handed longsword.' I'm stuck on it because its an essential part of natural attacks, so if we're going to say 'x counts as a natural attack,' any reasonable version of those rules would add in 'primary' or 'secondary' just before it. Its not a false dichotomy. Its a dichotomy, found right in the CRB.

A Longsword can't be a two-handed or one-handed weapon, it is just a one-handed weapon that you can wield in two hands if you so choose. This does not change the type of weapon it is and power attack says it works with one-handed weapons being wielded in two-hands. this does not change the weapon category.

Can a Monk take improved natural attack to bump the damage dice of his unarmed strike? No, because his unarmed strike is not a natural weapon and thus he does not qualify for this feat. It has no category. It is just being treated as a natural weapon for things like an Amulet of Mighty Fists or Magic Fang. You could even cast Strong Jaw on a Monk and have him be treated 2 size categories larger for determining his unarmed strike damage. Plus you get additional unarmed strikes from BAB, something else natural attacks can not do. Just go to bestiary 1 page 302 and look at the chart of natural weapons. These are the weapons power attack refers to.

alexd1976 wrote:

Variant versions of Weapon Training are no longer counted as Weapon Training.

The bonus would no longer apply.

Advanced Weapon Training and Weapon Training are two different things. The gloves modify one but not the other.

If your GM wants to houserule otherwise, ask him/her, but as written, the gloves ONLY work on the basic Weapon Training.

Variant versions of weapon training are still counted as weapon training if they work like it. This was a FAQ on the CRB back in July 2013. This is just a small section of that FAQ. You can go to the actual FAQ listings to read the entire thing but

It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)

Unklbuck wrote:

Take 1 level of Fighter...the rest Rogue

High Str and Con, 10 or 12 Dex
Full Plate and great Axe...Power attack of course
Use skill points for perception, Disable Device
Forget Stealth and Acrobatics...use Flanking for your Sneak Attack

High AC Sneak attacking, Power Attacking with a two handed weapon, Trap Disabling rogue

Non traditional but would still be effectice

This does indeed work well too. I just don't like the fact you lose out on Evasion which is one of the best qualities for the rogue.

My suggestion for a Dwarven Rogue (drawn up to level 5)

1 Fighter (1st level) / 4 Rogue (Unchained)

STR 12 -- ---- =12 (+1)
DEX 17 +1 LVL4 =18 (+4)
CON 12 +2 Race =14 (+2)
INT 13 -- ---- =13 (+1)
WIS 12 +2 Race =14 (+2)
CHA 8 -2 Race =6 (-2)

Feats (*-Rogue Bonus, **Fighter Bonus)
1 - Exotic Weapon Madu
1**- Two Weapon Fighting
2* - Weapon Finesse
3 - Improved Shield Bash
3* - Combat Expertise
5 - Gang up

Rogue Talents
2 - Combat Trick
4 - Weapon Training / Stand Up (optional, swap for whatever you want. You can always get Minor & Major Magic by 6 too)

The reason I go with this point buy is it allows you good saves by level 5 with a 5/8/3 (you don't need quite as high a Con with a level of fighter) not including the Dwarf racial bonuses. Also allows some options with the fighter such as the Brawler Archetype which gets his weapon training (Close Combatant) at level 3. If you use another weapon from the close weapon group too that also counts as a light weapon you're set. Also if you save your second fighter level until level 8 it will allow you to pick up power attack right then.

The nice thing with the Madu, aside from it can not be disarmed, is it changes your penalty for fighting defensively from a -4 to a -2, and if you have 3 ranks in Acrobatics you get a +3 Dodge bonus to AC instead of the normal +2. Also when you use Combat Expertise you will only be taking a -1 penalty for +2 AC at 4BAB. This allows you to switch to a more defensive role.

Gang up allows you to get your flanking bonuses easier as well. You just have to have 2 other allies threatening the opponent, placement does not matter which is quite handy with your 20ft move speed. If your party isn't very melee heavy though you can always swap this for Improved Unarmed strike. Always a useful feat for any rogue.

Edit : OH, I forgot traits. This build allows you to use pretty much whatever. If you want to pick up stuff for the flavour of the character go ham but if you're looking for trait suggestions as well there have been plenty of other excellent ones so far in this thread.

But it is a rules matter is the thing because the Qiggong monk says some of the monk's abilities are treated as Ki Powers (you can pick some up as Ki Powers is what this means) which would imply they are Ki Abilities to start with, also all of the monks abilities are either SU or EX too. It's actually something really interesting that having a developer clarify would be handy for because some wordings, or lack there of since the additional books became available, need a more in depth explanation. It becomes a GM's discretion thing right now but having a clearer explanation would help a lot because if you look at the Ring of Ki Master with the Quiggong Monk it starts getting more powerful, then you pair that with the Sensei where you can do it to everyone (ie. Restoration your entire party for free at 12th level because Sp have no components)

Having some issues on rulings with the Ring of Ki Mastery. The issue is popping up with the Qinggong Monk. The Qinggong monk has the ability "Ki Powers" but the wording at the end of the Ring of Ki Mastery

As long as there are at least 2 ki points stored in the ring, the
wearer reduces the number of ki points needed to use a ninja
trick or ki ability by 1 (minimum 1 ki point).

Now at the start of the Qinggong monk's Ki Powers entry it says

Ki powers are abilities that draw on the power of a monk’s

but the ability is still called "Ki Powers" and not "Ki Abilities" so would the ring affect the Qinggong Monk's Ki Powers? Something here is worded poorly and the Ultimate Equipment where this item is located has yet to get a second printing where as Ultimate Magic has, though before the item was created. Having some clarification on this would be nice.

Got my Ultimate Combat PDF and the download is done. Time to give this beast a read through.

2 more hours to go approximately then we can get our ultimate combat pdfs.

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