So, I have a friend that the few times I've played with him, he micromanages the Wealth by Level rules. Not only that, but he fully beieves 100% that it should be the market value for crafters, not the cost to make it that is figured. When I recently posted the FAQ entry on this on my Facebook page, sure enough he replied with a rant on it...
Still the problem with this is that a crafter would still possess almost double the actual value of equipment than other party members. The value of having an item creation feat is that you can craft what you want instead of just getting luck of the draw that the party treasure "drops" would be. Unless you have one of those DMs that ignore the fact not every shop has every single item in the treasure tables to buy. This also ignores what if your crafter is actually nice enough to craft for other party members and not greedy just to craft for themselves.
<Insulting comment to Paizo staff removed by AbsolutGrndZer0> Since over 50% of your equipment and "Gold value" is a characters power level. Even using the "Only spend so much on type X" (armor as their example) that crafter will end up much more powerful than any non-crafter as the actual value of your items is their Price not their cost.
So, what do you all think? Agree with Paizo's FAQ, or agree with my friend?
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?
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As a general rule in any field, when in doubt I go with the professional over the enthusiastic amateur.
Having said that, it wouldnt make me not want to play in his game - things like this dont really matter in my view, provided you know what you're getting into up front. It's just a different "setting" of the game. Presumably, playing a crafting focussed character will be less appealing (as will a character dependant on one super-expensive item, depending on the level of his micromanagement).
As a general rule in any field, when in doubt I go with the professional over the enthusiastic amateur.
Having said that, it wouldnt make me not want to play in his game - things like this dont really matter in my view, provided you know up front. It's just a different setting level. Presumably, playing a crafting focussed character will be less appealing (as will a character dependant on one super-expensive item, depending on the level of micromanagement).
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
That's another reason I have a problem with it too... he takes the WBL rules as if a player not being 100% equal in all wealth and all wealth not adhering to that chart 100% will just destroy the entire campaign world.
I must admit his approach seems a little silly, but I'd be able to manage playing in his game, I think. I'd just have to mentally adjust before the session.
Yeah, that's kinda what I had to do. Pretty much just make a character that will NOT be crafting... which means no wizards cause he doesn't like archetypes and so Scribe Scroll is nearly worthless being a crafting feat... and though he allows a few, he grumbles about it... He'd like to just ban anything beyond the Core Rulebook but then he'd have no players and he knows it.
Actually, now that I think about it... I minmax more in his games than I do in anyone else... simply because I know not to expect or even care what magic items I get, so I make my character a badass without magic, then oh look he just gave me a +3 flaming sword. Nice.
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I think the FAQ answer on crafting is, to say the least, not a good idea.
However, I have let my players decide what they want, and they like the ruling, so I shrug and go with it. I just have to adjust the CR of encounters to compensate for the extra power level to keep challenges actually challenging.
I personally would not play with the GM for a different reason, the whole 'you will get this exact item and like it' would be too 'in your face' for me.
I generally think him mandating who gets what weapon or item, even after giving it to the party, would be annoying.
That said, crafting is admitted by paizo to be marginally game breaking and is banned outright from organized play.
I could play to this though depending on how he issues his "mandates" I could get irritated.
Yeah, basically (actually never had a game go beyond the first session.... wonder why) from what I understand, he as I said micromanages it so that if say the rogue doesn't want the +1 flaming dagger he gave them, then it's sold and that money is split among the party. So, the party basically all gets along 100% and divides loot 100% fairly at all times... but not because all the players agree to, it's GM mandate that it's done and that everything stays 100% true to the WBL table at all times.
I just have to adjust the CR of encounters to compensate for the extra power level to keep challenges actually challenging.
Exactly! That's what I do, and I think what you are intended to do, just as you would not throw your Fire Elemental specialist wizard up against an ice elemental and then wonder why the encounter was so easy. The WBL is for creating new characters to some extent, and a general GUIDELINE but it's not meant to be a OMFG your character has 15,000gp worth of items and the chart says you should only have 10,000 *UNIVERSE EXPLODES*
Dude, if you dislike him so much why do you still play?
Well, he lives in CA now and I'm in KS so I don't play with him anymore, but we are still friends and when I read that in the FAQ it reminded me and so I was curious to see what others thought, if they agreed with the FAQ or with him.
Before I hadn't read the FAQ to get the RAI, so all we had was the RAW which we disagreed on what that was.
EDIT: Also, cause sometimes if you want to play, you have to play the only game in town, or GM yourself. Which actually the latter is what I usually ended up doing...
Yeah, that's kinda what I had to do. Pretty much just make a character that will NOT be crafting... which means no wizards cause he doesn't like archetypes and so Scribe Scroll is nearly worthless being a crafting feat... and though he allows a few, he grumbles about it... He'd like to just ban anything beyond the Core Rulebook but then he'd have no players and he knows it.
Actually, now that I think about it... I minmax more in his games than I do in anyone else... simply because I know not to expect or even care what magic items I get, so I make my character a badass without magic, then oh look he just gave me a +3 flaming sword. Nice.
He bans archetypes as a whole? Really? That would be enough for me not to play with him. Half the fun of a class is their interesting archetypes. I haven't played a vanilla fighter or ranger in ages.
It really sounds like he does not trust the Paizo staff.
The crafting thing wouldn't annoy me. If a DM said crafting worked in some wonky way that I didn't agree with, I'd just pick other feats.
The "The Rogue gets that dagger by DM Fiat" though is somethign I would have a problem with.
DM places the loot. PC's decide what happens with it.
Its not really his place to dictate to us who gets what item.
To me personally, that would get extremely annoying very very quickly and would likely lead to me leaving the group.
-S
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Had a GM like that once. I wanted to give up when he gave me, a holy vindicator cleric, a +2 defending boomerang. He was peeved about a paladin in the group with high Intimidate using a merciful polearm combined with the Enforcer feat to make people shaken and then frightened left and right. Which was wrong, but that was how the GM was doing it. His solution was to: steal the weapon and throw it in the ocean, which didn't work thanks to a feather fall and summon nature's ally, then to break it, which didn't work because of make whole, then tried to eat it with slime which didn't work because the paladin was onto the trend and didn't use his weapon against it.
This tells me that the GM can't handle powerful characters. Let him gimp them, and get upset when he kills them because they're simply not strong enough. To answer... No, I would not play with this GM.
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Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, that's kinda what I had to do. Pretty much just make a character that will NOT be crafting... which means no wizards cause he doesn't like archetypes and so Scribe Scroll is nearly worthless being a crafting feat... and though he allows a few, he grumbles about it... He'd like to just ban anything beyond the Core Rulebook but then he'd have no players and he knows it.
Actually, now that I think about it... I minmax more in his games than I do in anyone else... simply because I know not to expect or even care what magic items I get, so I make my character a badass without magic, then oh look he just gave me a +3 flaming sword. Nice.
He bans archetypes as a whole? Really? That would be enough for me not to play with him. Half the fun of a class is their interesting archetypes. I haven't played a vanilla fighter or ranger in ages.
It really sounds like he does not trust the Paizo staff.
No, he's doesn't ban archetypes as a whole, just he's very very picky about anything outside the Core Rulebook, and yes his ideas of balance are very very strict and he doesn't trust Paizo staff to keep things balanced. He absolutely doesn't allow the "Halfling Jinx" trait from Halfings of Golarion because it's horribly imbalanced in his view. In fact, IIRC I think he pretty much didn't allow ANY racial trait swapping at all.
Just replied to me again on Facebook...
As I said. The feats let you have the items you want instead of just what is dropped. I've been in games where you had someone who was a crafter and where the DM kept track of wealth by cost of the item for the crafters and price for non-crafters. The Crafters were WAY more powerful than the others because they could get the custom items they wanted for the stats/skills/abilities they wanted where everyone else just had to deal with whatever was dropped as loot. So that proves the Feats are not worthless. You just seem to have a weird idea of what worth means. half the things you think are balanced are not balanced at all and just something you really want so you ignore the fact it's more powerful.
Look up the word Estimate, it doesn't mean one value is double another. And that is easily what you can get with counting Cost for Crafters and Market Price for Non-Crafters. Specially since there are no XP costs for item creation anymore. That is what kept it more balanced.
And if you up the encounters you get issues. Depending on what you mean by "up them". If you mean make them harder. Yea do that... cause then the crafters can handle them but not everyone else. If you mean up the value of treasure, you aren't fixing anything just raising both monetary bars of the Crafters and Non-Crafters. It's about the same as raising Minimum Wage. It may look nice but it doesn't actually do s$!$. And you say "Party is crafting" it is very unlikely that every member of the party is crafting items.
So yeah, he doesn't trust the Paizo staff to keep their own game balanced, in fact he believes as you can see above in the first paragraph that they have failed horribly at keeping Pathfinder balanced.
This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
Well, if you don't want the item then it can go to party loot and be sold, then that money is divided equally among all the players.
This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
Exactly. A good opportunity to check with the other players whether they would enjoy a change in GMs, at which point you uninvite the current occupant of said seat.
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So yeah, he doesn't trust the Paizo staff to keep their own game balanced, in fact he believes as you can see above in the first paragraph that they have failed horribly at keeping Pathfinder balanced.
You do realize that pazio has basically admitted that the magic item crafting rules are borked and is getting a rehaul...RIGHT? Seriously, the magic item creation rules as written and clarified in FAQ is BROKEN. As in you let a player run with it and they WILL break you game broken. Now I never had any issue with it because I tell my players to knock it off when they go too crazy and since my players aren't jerks, they go okay. I do the same as a player. There is a very damn good reason why crafting is banned in PFS. If crafting wasn't that campaign shattering unbalanced, it would be allowed in PFS.
You do realize that pazio has basically admitted that the magic item crafting rules are borked and is getting a rehaul...RIGHT? Seriously, the magic item creation rules as written and clarified in FAQ is BROKEN. As in you let a player run with it and they WILL break you game broken. Now I never had any issue with it because I tell my players to knock it off when they go too crazy and since my players aren't jerks, they go okay. I do the same as a player. There is a very damn good reason why crafting is banned in PFS. If crafting wasn't that campaign shattering unbalanced, it would be allowed in PFS.
So yeah, he doesn't trust the Paizo staff to keep their own game balanced, in fact he believes as you can see above in the first paragraph that they have failed horribly at keeping Pathfinder balanced.
Maybe, but his views aren't just about the crafting system. Even if you admit the crafting is broken, is the entire game unbalanced outside of the Core Rulebook? If you allow racial trait swapping does the game break down? If you allow archetypes (which he does allow, very limited though) does the game fall apart?
I'd wonder why he even bothered switching from 3.5 to Pathfinder, except I know the reason, it's the same reason. Terrible imbalance.
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You do realize that pazio has basically admitted that the magic item crafting rules are borked and is getting a rehaul...RIGHT? Seriously, the magic item creation rules as written and clarified in FAQ is BROKEN. As in you let a player run with it and they WILL break you game broken. Now I never had any issue with it because I tell my players to knock it off when they go too crazy and since my players aren't jerks, they go okay. I do the same as a player. There is a very damn good reason why crafting is banned in PFS. If crafting wasn't that campaign shattering unbalanced, it would be allowed in PFS.
So yeah, he doesn't trust the Paizo staff to keep their own game balanced, in fact he believes as you can see above in the first paragraph that they have failed horribly at keeping Pathfinder balanced.Maybe, but his views aren't just about the crafting system. Even if you admit the crafting is broken, is the entire game unbalanced outside of the Core Rulebook? If you allow racial trait swapping does the game break down? If you allow archetypes (which he does allow, very limited though) does the game fall apart?
I'd wonder why he even bothered switching from 3.5 to Pathfinder, except I know the reason, it's the same reason. Terrible imbalance.
The game isn't balanced INSIDE the core book so why the heck would you expect it to be so outside the core book?!? Can a racial trait break a game? HELL yes. I have seen the samsaran alt racial ability absolutely wreck some GMs game to shreds. Can an archetype do the same? Did you NOT noticed the numerous synthesis summoner is broken threads? Do I think either of those ability to be game breaking for ME and my player? Umm nope. Are they the most powerful of abilities even available? Once again nope. Core books has most of the top mechanical effects actually. Does that matter one bit on the effect on an INDIVIDUAL game? HELL NO.
That said, if he is THAT concerned with balance, this is the wrong system for him. He should look into 4th ed.
I would still play with ''a'' GM who changes, or even bans, the crafting rules. I even recommended my players not to play crafting focused characters because I would probably just decrease loot value to compensate (but I'm fine with crafting potions, scrolls and wands). However, I would not play with your friend because of all the other issues you mentionned, specifically because of the way he handles loot. It's the player that should choose how to split the loot, not the GM. And remember, the WBL chart is a guideline and not something you should follow blindly.
The game isn't balanced INSIDE the core book so why the heck would you expect it to be so outside the core book?!? Can a racial trait break a game? HELL yes. I have seen the samsaran alt racial ability absolutely wreck some GMs game to shreds. Can an archetype do the same? Did you NOT noticed the numerous synthesis summoner is broken threads? Do I think either of those ability to be game breaking for ME and my player? Umm nope. Are they the most powerful of abilities even available? Once again nope. Core books has most of the top mechanical effects actually. Does that matter one bit on the effect on an INDIVIDUAL game? HELL NO.
That said, if he is THAT concerned with balance, this is the wrong system for him. He should look into 4th ed.
Well, true but Paizo at least TRIES to keep things balanced, but at the same time it's up to the GM to know the rules well enough to look for problem combinations and/or know his/her players well enough to know problem players.
As for the balance thing he'll tell me something is imbalanced... and when I ask him why he's like "If you don't see it, I can't explain it"
Like for example witches he hates (partially cause he's pagan IRL and finds them offensive) because the ability to use hexes at will is game breaking. The fact that you can't hex the same person more than once every 24 hours doesn't matter. It's the same problem he has with the "Halfling Jinx" racial trait in Halflings of Golarion (which is even less powerful than a witch hex, since only one "jinx" can be active at a time. You jinx John this round, then Jane the next, John's jinx expires)
And remember, the WBL chart is a guideline and not something you should follow blindly.
Yeah, I say that but it's preaching to a brick wall... see above where he gave me the definition of the word "estimate" Really funny is his claim that XP costs kept the game more balanced.
Also, would this be enough for you to just not play with him?Nah. I'd just have my fighter wear tree bark and swing a stick while throwing all the phat loot in a pile back home.
I do agree with the FAQ... Not with this GM.
I am with mdt on being annoyed at him assigning treasures himself.TOZ I've done something similar. Made sure all my treasure made it to a good charity.
Well, if you don't want the item then it can go to party loot and be sold, then that money is divided equally among all the players.This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
So if the rogue thinks flaming sux and doesn't want to use that dagger no one else can use it?
I get the idea that the GM is very concerned with game balance, which isn't a bad thing. Paizo doesn't expect every GM to allow every option in every book they release (although some GM's do allow everything). Many GM's pick and choose which options they want to include in their games; this guy's approach is simply particularly picky.
Concern over game balance is certainly better than the opposite. I once played in a game where the first thing that happened after we had created our characters was this: The party stumbled over a building containing about two dozen magic items, all of which were improvements over what we had used our starting gold to buy (especially armor and weapons; I think there were 5 or 6 +3 or better suits of armor in there). The only encounter we had that day saw us defeat a archmage 8 levels higher than we were in one PC's first round.
So I can certainly understand the desire to maintain a more healthy environment in terms of WBL, crafting, and general power level. While I wouldn't run my own games the same way this GM does, I don't think I'd have a problem playing in it.
As long as i knew about the house rules and his clarifications ahead of time, then yes i wouldn't have a problem playing with this DM.
So if the rogue thinks flaming sux and doesn't want to use that dagger no one else can use it?Well, if you don't want the item then it can go to party loot and be sold, then that money is divided equally among all the players.This means I find a new GM or I will GM.
Yeah, he makes sure an item "drops" for every character, and there's no debate allowed in character about who gets what item. Oh, look a wand of fireballs... GM MANDATE THE WIZARD GETS IT. Oh look a flaming dagger, GM MANDATE THE ROGUE GETS IT...
Well, maybe if the fight actually used daggers he could ask for it... but like better example if the fighter used two-handed axes and he gave the fighter a two-handed sword so he didn't want it, well what is the rogue going to do with a two handed sword? Basically, he made sure everyone got an item that he thought they'd want, and you only get ONE item. Everyone must stay equal WBL at all times. IF the rogue takes the dagger with a value of 2,000gp then he can't have another item until every other player gains at least 2,000gp worth of items.
And as for knowing house rules and such ahead of time, yeah that's a mandatory thing for me... nothing kills a game for me faster than being in the middle of a game and suddenly being told "Oh, in my game fire elementals are immune to cold damage, sorry I didn't tell you" (and yes, that's a stupid extreme example, but I can't think of any real examples off the top of my head that aren't White Wolf related).
But, a lot of the problems stemmed from just I think him wanting to restrict the game only to the CR, but knowing most players at least want the APG (which at the time was the only thing extra he allowed) but even then a lot of it he just said "That's not balanced at all" whenever I wanted something out of it. Finally I managed to get approved for two-weapon fighter, so I maximized myself to fight with daggers.
Magic item crafting is a broken mess and has been since 3.0. A complete overhaul of the system should be done, with a less "money-printing" and more "customization-friendly" approach. SKRs FAQ entry on the topic sadly makes no sense from a rules and lore standpoint.
That being said, the GM sounds way too much like a control freak. OTOH, I wonder how his side of the story would sound. There have been multiple cases lately of GMs coming to the board and giving very illuminating insights on how their side of the "slighted player" story looks like.
With miserly DM's, you have several options as a player:
1 You can invest what little money you do have into objects that will save you gold in the long run. A bow that creates its own arrows, a ring of sustenance, etc.
2 You can have a chat with the other players, and find out if they too are dissatisfied. If so, you can have a little chat with the DM, and explain how the group of you feel. On top of that, you can find out what the game designers think via the internet, then show your DM.
3 You can dump the DM unceremoniously, and find someone else. I myself took this option, started running my own games because the guy who was running ours was MASSIVELY stingy with anything to do with treasure. You'd create a PC, and you would never see a penny in game.
4 You can simply register your complaint privately with the DM, and see what happens.
5 Suck it up, and go passive about it. Keep your yap shut, and eventually blow up at the DM.
6 You can get ticked off, complain incessantly about it. This tends to create the impression in others minds that you are being a dick, even if you do have a good point.
As you have already seen, people on this thread have taken several of these stances already. I personally prefer the first 2 options. Number 6 seems to be the worst, though some here seem to prefer it.
Unlike other posters I will treat what you are saying as true. I'll even treat it as a hypothetical situration.
On rule of crafting...as long as it is up front I am ok with.
His control of the diversion of treasure is annoying and would make me leary of his game.
But if his game is otherwise good I think I might be able to tolerate it.
Magic item crafting is a broken mess and has been since 3.0. A complete overhaul of the system should be done, with a less "money-printing" and more "customization-friendly" approach. SKRs FAQ entry on the topic sadly makes no sense from a rules and lore standpoint.
That being said, the GM sounds way too much like a control freak. OTOH, I wonder how his side of the story would sound. There have been multiple cases lately of GMs coming to the board and giving very illuminating insights on how their side of the "slighted player" story looks like.
Well, that's true. Although, he doesn't to my knowledge come to the Paizo forums. If he did, that would be maybe somewhat enlightening, although very much I think it would just let you hear him say the same things I've quoted and said. WBL should be strictly enforced and players should be kept equal at all times, if you get an item you can't have another until everyone else has gotten one... and the other stuff.
Though, in the end as I said awhile back, now he's in CA and I'm in KS but after reading the FAQ I was curious since I'd never read the FAQ about it before, and only had the book as reference and posted it on Facebook sure enough he commented so I thought I'd see what others thought.
Personally, I think that yes, if you micromanage wealth by level like an IRS tax auditor then the crafting system is broken. If you are a GM that looks at your players abilities and magic items then designs challenging options for them, it works just fine. Can it be improved? Yes. But then the game can always been improved. Because humans made the game. Therefore, it will never be perfect.
Magic item crafting is a broken mess and has been since 3.0. A complete overhaul of the system should be done, with a less "money-printing" and more "customization-friendly" approach. SKRs FAQ entry on the topic sadly makes no sense from a rules and lore standpoint.
Can you clarify the bold for me Magnuskn? I can understand how it might be unbalanced for the FAQ to rule the way it does, but from a Lore standpoint, it costs Adventurers X value to buy magic gear, and it costs X/2 to make it (so the people who actually operate a business doing this make a profit equal to the price of materials.) It makes sense from a rule perspective too. The rules say having a craft feat lets you craft items at 1/2 market cost.
Where's the contradiction to Rules or Lore?
Maybe he thinks that it should cost 1/10th the market value, like real life. Course, we have more middle men that need to profit than they did back then, so maybe it balances out.
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One thing to note about "Offical Ruleings" about crafting is the fact that society play does not allow for crafting. This may be looked at as sort of its own homebrew in a sense, but when the PFS bans something as a GM I look over it again since there is obviously a reason.
Would I play with this GM? Well its hard to tell just off this thread. If the rest of the game is good, and he has been upfront with you about all this, then I would have to say he is not that bad of a GM.
Magic item crafting is a broken mess and has been since 3.0. A complete overhaul of the system should be done, with a less "money-printing" and more "customization-friendly" approach. SKRs FAQ entry on the topic sadly makes no sense from a rules and lore standpoint.
Can you clarify the bold for me Magnuskn? I can understand how it might be unbalanced for the FAQ to rule the way it does, but from a Lore standpoint, it costs Adventurers X value to buy magic gear, and it costs X/2 to make it (so the people who actually operate a business doing this make a profit equal to the price of materials.) It makes sense from a rule perspective too. The rules say having a craft feat lets you craft items at 1/2 market cost.
Where's the contradiction to Rules or Lore?
EDIT: fixed a typo I noticed when this post was quoted.
Rules: This FAQ entry overrules an entire decade of precedent.
Alright, so if we go by SKR's FAQ entry, the magic item crafting feat's WBL advantage should only benefit the crafter.
Uh, why? If we go by RAW, there is absolutely no reason why the feat should only be applicable to the crafter. Given enough time, the crafter can (and probably will) craft freely for the party until time or money runs out.
Even if we wiggle our fingers mystically and introduce a retroactive "magical energies from crafting only work for the person crafting the item" rule, we are left with another problem: Why do all those found magic items work for us? If item crafting only benefits the crafter, shouldn't all those items be inert for us?
Lore:Why doesn't magic item crafting work for other characters than the crafter? We don't know. Has there been a new edict from the gods of Golarion? Doesn't seem so. How do we integrate this new change into the campaign setting? No help from the designers.
Now, I imagine that there will be some "but you could do X or Y" posts coming up after my post. But to already pre-empt that: It doesn't matter if you come up with good reasons how this change can be implemented, the FAQ entry by SKR at this time does not make sense. Any solution we'd come up with to integrate it into the system as is would just be homebrewn stuff by us, not actual game rules by him or Paizo.