With elves living so long...

[zainale]

why isn't there more maxed leveled cross classing elves? humans learn fast. but it takes the same amount of exp for a human and an elf to lvl up in a class. elves live like 5 life times of that of a human to get to retirement. i am sure with the amount of years an elf has he or she can get to lvl 20 many times. and taking wizardry or barddom out of boredom in their old age to pass the time.

[Rysky]

*shrugs*

Because age =/= experience.

And not all elves are adventurers that go forth an level up quickly like PCs.

That, and if you had a bunch of level 20s running around doing everything there wouldn't be much for your players to do.

[Milo v3]

zainale wrote:

why isn't there more maxed leveled cross classing elves? humans learn fast. but it takes the same amount of exp for a human and an elf to lvl up in a class. elves live like 5 life times of that of a human to get to retirement. i am sure with the amount of years an elf has he or she can get to lvl 20 many times. and taking wizardry or barddom out of boredom in their old age to pass the time.

Elves tend to take longer to develop outside of adventuring it seems, I mean it takes them 110 years to be equivelent physically and mentally to a 15 year old.

[Brew Bird]

Elves live at their own pace. They don't feel every year pulling them closer to the grave. A year or two or twenty can be squandered on learning about birds, or music, or painting some masterpiece, or maybe just watching a tree grow.

"There's plenty of time for all that "leveling" nonsense on rainy days. After all, I've got the next century to work on it."

[The Shaman]

There might be some pretty dang powerful elves holding back Treerazer in Kyonin or having a shadow war against the drow, but I think the setting is following the usual paradigm of humans being the most prominent (PC) race. You could say that Elves don't push themselves quite as much as humans do, I guess, but that is just looking for justification.

Sure, I would expect there to be quite a few triple- or quadruple-classed high level elves. I just doubt we will see them :) .

[Corathonv2]

This is kind of a logical contradiction which Pathfinder ignores. It could be mitigated if one assumes that reaching level 20 is so dangerous that almost everyone who tries ends up permanently dead. Then 20th level characters of any sort (elf, human, whatever) would be very, very rare.

[thejeff]

The average AP takes less than a year and gets you up to 15 or 16. Why aren't all the humans up to that level at least? They've had plenty of time.

Because the vast majority of people, human, elven or any other race, aren't PCs. The vast majority of people go up levels very slowly and plateau somewhere well below 10. Age and time have very little to do with it.

[Deadmanwalking]

Given that most 70 year old humans aren't high level...this objection has always rung pretty hollow to me. We have teenagers in the teens on level as well as old people of level 3 or less.

But yeah, I've always assumed elves live slower paced lives given the option. Allowing their children to go out and pick flowers for a week on a whim and the like. If you want to reflect this mechanically, allowing them to trade in either Weapon Familiarity or Elven Magic (their choice) for Breadth of Experience as a House Rule does the job pretty well. That reflects such a broad but undirected education quite effectively.

[Quintessentially Me]

thejeff wrote:

The average AP takes less than a year and gets you up to 15 or 16. Why aren't all the humans up to that level at least? They've had plenty of time.

Because the vast majority of people, human, elven or any other race, aren't PCs. The vast majority of people go up levels very slowly and plateau somewhere well below 10. Age and time have very little to do with it.

More particularly, the vast majority of beings capable of adventuring don't go on to be successful adventurers, having defeated a runelord or settling an entire nation's difficulties. It's those kinds of accomplishments that allow for the meteoric rise in power that most PC's enjoy. Those who pursue things at a more leisurely pace presumably progress much more slowly and carefully.

Also, handwaving...

[Philo Pharynx]

Brew Bird wrote:

Elves live at their own pace. They don't feel every year pulling them closer to the grave. A year or two or twenty can be squandered on learning about birds, or music, or painting some masterpiece, or maybe just watching a tree grow.

"There's plenty of time for all that "leveling" nonsense on rainy days. After all, I've got the next century to work on it."

And yet the they don't learn anything from this. They don't get extra ranks in Perform, or knowledge: nature. I'd expect that putting a couple decades into something would teach you a little.

The other problem with this is that it screws with characterization. It says that you can't play a driven elf. If you want to focus on a skill and be the best in the world at it, it says that you are incompetent.

[thejeff]

Quintessentially Me wrote:

thejeff wrote:

The average AP takes less than a year and gets you up to 15 or 16. Why aren't all the humans up to that level at least? They've had plenty of time.

Because the vast majority of people, human, elven or any other race, aren't PCs. The vast majority of people go up levels very slowly and plateau somewhere well below 10. Age and time have very little to do with it.

More particularly, the vast majority of beings capable of adventuring don't go on to be successful adventurers, having defeated a runelord or settling an entire nation's difficulties. It's those kinds of accomplishments that allow for the meteoric rise in power that most PC's enjoy. Those who pursue things at a more leisurely pace presumably progress much more slowly and carefully.

Also, handwaving...

And slowly and carefully doesn't get you to 20th level, no matter how long you do it.

But even more, I didn't say "adventurers", I said PCs. The thing about PCs is that they're guaranteed a access to appropriate challenges. (Yes, even in a sandbox game. They just have to be a little more careful about picking there.) This matters in two ways: First, they don't get slaughtered early on by things they can't handle. Second, they keep finding things that challenge them rather than spend all their time handling petty low-level threats.
It takes big dangers to create big heroes, not because of any meta reasons, but because that's the only way to get enough experience.

[MeanMutton]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

Brew Bird wrote:

Elves live at their own pace. They don't feel every year pulling them closer to the grave. A year or two or twenty can be squandered on learning about birds, or music, or painting some masterpiece, or maybe just watching a tree grow.

"There's plenty of time for all that "leveling" nonsense on rainy days. After all, I've got the next century to work on it."

And yet the they don't learn anything from this. They don't get extra ranks in Perform, or knowledge: nature. I'd expect that putting a couple decades into something would teach you a little.

The other problem with this is that it screws with characterization. It says that you can't play a driven elf. If you want to focus on a skill and be the best in the world at it, it says that you are incompetent.

It's a game designed to be a simulation of miniature combat wrapped in story-telling. It's not supposed to be realistic.

[Milo v3]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

And yet the they don't learn anything from this. They don't get extra ranks in Perform, or knowledge: nature. I'd expect that putting a couple decades into something would teach you a little.

Of course not, they're basically just retraining over and over again. I mean, learned how to play the guitar but now I've forgotten.

[Mykull]

True, they all might not be adventurers, but that doesn't mean that the average elf isn't a level 20 commonoer, and then a level 20 expert. It's your world, do what you want in it. I know I do.

[RDM42]

Perhaps ther is only so much a brain can hold before reaching the saturation point? At a certain point to stuff more in something has to leak outl.

[hiiamtom]

Long lived races and levels should be filed under the "don't question it too much" box. You could pull the strings that point out that elves should have all the money and power they would want (same for dwarves) simply by waiting out the competition, that with a century long period growing to adulthood they are at impossibly high risk of having entire generations wiped out because they can't replace the adults, etc. or you can accept things at face value as intended.

RDM42 wrote:

Perhaps ther is only so much a brain can hold before reaching the saturation point? At a certain point to stuff more in something has to leak outl.

If that was true they would never evolve a long life. You can say that about an immortal that was born of a short lived race because their biology wasn't designed for it, but if your late teens through your twenties lasts several centuries the general expectation as a living being is to absorb information continuously.

[Tacticslion]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

And yet the they don't learn anything from this. They don't get extra ranks in Perform, or knowledge: nature. I'd expect that putting a couple decades into something would teach you a little.

Milo v3 wrote:

Of course not, they're basically just retraining over and over again. I mean, learned how to play the guitar but now I've forgotten.

I think Milo has the gist of it.

I'm a human. I'm nothing like a genius, but I'm fairly smart (solid grades when I applied myself, and whatnot).

I used to play: guitar, piano, and the ocarina (though the last is a bit dubious). I learned the keys, chords, the names thereof, and how to read them and put them together.

Now I play: none of them. No one wants to hear me try. My "best" shot is trying to play Heart and Soul on the piano - the simple version that you can pick out with one key at a time.

I used to play: soccer, basketball, fencing, football, and tennis; and used to practice Taekwando and karate (and, for a very limited bit, judo, though I never spent time enough to learn it). I even represented my school in a Taekwando tournament. I learned all sorts of strategies, positions, and similar.

Now I play: none of them; nor do I practice the martial arts. I am effectively back to being a white belt at best in any martial art I've ever even looked at, and probably less. I coach soccer... for 4.5-7 year olds. I get trounced at basketball by the neighborhood kids. I struggle to recall the rules of my favorite sport (soccer), and have to look them up/read them because I've forgotten by now.

I used to ride: a horse. I could tell you all about the parts of the saddle, the breeds, the importance and functions of grooming, and so on.

Now I ride: a car (hypothetically, I can still ride a bike, but I have no bike to ride). I remember very little about what I learned of horses these days, except for the fact that it was fun.

I sued to speak: three languages semi-fluently, and more of them juuuuust enough to survive, if I had to. English, Lithuanian, Russian; and a survival-smattering of German, French, and others.

Now I speak: English (sometimes, even, at an adult level!). Sometimes Spanish (thanks to my time in Miami), but I can chatter more easily than I can listen (okay, that's true in English, too, but for different reasons...) and I can barely recall anything from any other language that I haven't heard on a television show.

I think that, due to game rules and presentation, we get the mistaken impression that gaining levels and skills and whatnot is a strictly one-way affair. I'm pretty sure it's not.

Elves, as a society, seem chaotic. They endow the individual with the ability to do as that individual wants, and said individual could, really, go and do things and have fun, and learn, and enjoy, and then just... forget about it. After all, it's been, what, a decade since then?

Add that to their slow maturation rates, and their long lives don't really look so very much like an ever-increasing series of upwards movements.

There are a few cases where such things are stretched, such as the Forlorn, but I think those, too, can be explained, if you're willing.

Either way, good gaming, and have fun! :D

EDIT: For two more examples and some clarification.

[zainale]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

Brew Bird wrote:

Elves live at their own pace. They don't feel every year pulling them closer to the grave. A year or two or twenty can be squandered on learning about birds, or music, or painting some masterpiece, or maybe just watching a tree grow.

"There's plenty of time for all that "leveling" nonsense on rainy days. After all, I've got the next century to work on it."

And yet the they don't learn anything from this. They don't get extra ranks in Perform, or knowledge: nature. I'd expect that putting a couple decades into something would teach you a little.

The other problem with this is that it screws with characterization. It says that you can't play a driven elf. If you want to focus on a skill and be the best in the world at it, it says that you are incompetent.

what it does? where? just because i want to look that up. >.>

[RDM42]

hiiamtom wrote:

Long lived races and levels should be filed under the "don't question it too much" box. You could pull the strings that point out that elves should have all the money and power they would want (same for dwarves) simply by waiting out the competition, that with a century long period growing to adulthood they are at impossibly high risk of having entire generations wiped out because they can't replace the adults, etc. or you can accept things at face value as intended.

RDM42 wrote:

Perhaps ther is only so much a brain can hold before reaching the saturation point? At a certain point to stuff more in something has to leak outl.

If that was true they would never evolve a long life. You can say that about an immortal that was born of a short lived race because their biology wasn't designed for it, but if your late teens through your twenties lasts several centuries the general expectation as a living being is to absorb information continuously.

Is there a general reproductive advantage to being able to be twentieth level in multiple classes? No? And I could easily see elves that start forgetting their early life as they age, and lose skills they picked up early and don't practice as much. The brain is editing itself and moving now extraneous information.

[Orfamay Quest]

RDM42 wrote:

Is there a general reproductive advantage to being able to be twentieth level in multiple classes?

Goodness, yes. If you're 20th level in three different classes, you are approximately CR 60 and your chances of surviving and continuing to breed when faced with a CR 17 monster are much higher than when you were only CR 19.

[SheepishEidolon]

PCs only learn (level) that fast because they are forced to. It needs serious motivation to take adventurer life's risk and discomfort. An elf PC improves as fast a human one, because he has to. But once the adventure is over, I guess the elf is more likely to relax...

...and to forget. Having centuries to learn also means you have centuries to forget learnt lessons. Maybe not completely - but old memories might fade nearly as fast as you learn new abilities. Which results in very slow improvement overall.

[Bill Dunn]

zainale wrote:

why isn't there more maxed leveled cross classing elves? humans learn fast. but it takes the same amount of exp for a human and an elf to lvl up in a class. elves live like 5 life times of that of a human to get to retirement. i am sure with the amount of years an elf has he or she can get to lvl 20 many times. and taking wizardry or barddom out of boredom in their old age to pass the time.

Because the NPCs in a campaign don't live under PC rules when it comes to XPs and leveling up. It's as simple as that.

[RDM42]

Orfamay Quest wrote:

RDM42 wrote:

Is there a general reproductive advantage to being able to be twentieth level in multiple classes?

Goodness, yes. If you're 20th level in three different classes, you are approximately CR 60 and your chances of surviving and continuing to breed when faced with a CR 17 monster are much higher than when you were only CR 19.

Not generally that much of a marginal benefit over level twenty in one class. God verses God plus. Both are likely to survive and have kids if they want them.

[thejeff]

RDM42 wrote:

Orfamay Quest wrote:

RDM42 wrote:

Is there a general reproductive advantage to being able to be twentieth level in multiple classes?

Goodness, yes. If you're 20th level in three different classes, you are approximately CR 60 and your chances of surviving and continuing to breed when faced with a CR 17 monster are much higher than when you were only CR 19.

Not generally that much of a marginal benefit over level twenty in one class. God verses God plus. Both are likely to survive and have kids if they want them.

Except that the process of becoming 20th level tends to be a very risky one, so you're most likely to die before reproducing. Better off to stay home and have kids. Let someone else face the rare CR 17 threats.

[Orfamay Quest]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

If you want to focus on a skill and be the best in the world at it, it says that you are incompetent.

It doesn't say that at all. There's no reason for an elf not to be driven, but it's just not that common. Similarly, there's no reason for a human not to be driven,.... but it's still just not that common, which is why, even in the real world, most of us are not virtuoso pianists, black belts in karate, cordon blue chefs, or any other hobby demanding high degrees of skill.

More than half of (US) high school students participate in some sort of organized sport, whether football, basketball, field hockey, track and field, or something less common like lacrosse or fencing. Almost all of these students practice multiple hours several days a week as a matter of course. How many 25 year old adults do the same? Normal humans make choices about how they want to spend their time and it typically turns from becoming a game-winning center to becoming a successful worker and a happy spouse and parent.

I see no reason to believe that your average elf would have been studying to be a bard when s/he was a youngling of 90 years old, but then gave that up, and instead of becoming a better bard, has concentrated on making elderflower wine.

[MeanMutton]

RDM42 wrote:

hiiamtom wrote:

Long lived races and levels should be filed under the "don't question it too much" box. You could pull the strings that point out that elves should have all the money and power they would want (same for dwarves) simply by waiting out the competition, that with a century long period growing to adulthood they are at impossibly high risk of having entire generations wiped out because they can't replace the adults, etc. or you can accept things at face value as intended.

RDM42 wrote:

Perhaps ther is only so much a brain can hold before reaching the saturation point? At a certain point to stuff more in something has to leak outl.

If that was true they would never evolve a long life. You can say that about an immortal that was born of a short lived race because their biology wasn't designed for it, but if your late teens through your twenties lasts several centuries the general expectation as a living being is to absorb information continuously.

Is there a general reproductive advantage to being able to be twentieth level in multiple classes? No? And I could easily see elves that start forgetting their early life as they age, and lose skills they picked up early and don't practice as much. The brain is editing itself and moving now extraneous information.

Elves in Golarion didn't evolve. They've existed as long as nature has.

[Wolfsnap]

Trying to find in-universe explanations for meta-game concerns is a non-starter. I have always thought that the idea of there being lots of high-level characters running around in the game world to be pretty untenable.

I have found that the games I run improve greatly with a few assumptions made:

1 - The PCs are the stars of the show, and it is their job to out-shine everyone else in the game world.

2 - 90% of NPCs have no class levels

3 - Of the 10% of NPCs who do have class levels, the vast majority are no higher than level 2.

4 - Rulers and kings and high-priests and other potentates average from level 5-7 unless they are explicitly going to be antagonists for the PCs.

5 - The only NPCs who scale in level with the PCs are their antagonists.

6 - Magic is rare, EXCEPT for the PCs. Their party is always the highest single concentration of magical power in the world, aside from their antagonists.

[hiiamtom]

MeanMutton wrote:

RDM42 wrote:

Is there a general reproductive advantage to being able to be twentieth level in multiple classes? No? And I could easily see elves that start forgetting their early life as they age, and lose skills they picked up early and don't practice as much. The brain is editing itself and moving now extraneous information.

Elves in Golarion didn't evolve. They've existed as long as nature has.

Exactly, don't pull the strings and accept it at face value. That's the point.

@RDM42: You just asked the question that belongs in the "why are elves lives so long" pile, because there is no advantage to a longer and slower life without being the apex of the food chain. Having elves live their lives in senility while still being as able-bodied as a 20 year old human makes little sense - and while forgetting something isn't being senile what you are suggesting is that elves become continuously reset to 0 on skills and shuffle a low proficiency around.

[Tacticslion]

MeanMutton wrote:

Elves in Golarion didn't evolve. They've existed as long as nature has.

Aaaaaaaaaaaactually, they did evolve.

Into drow.

Jokes aside, from what we can tell, Elves are not even really from Golarion. It seems* they're from another planet** and moved to The Cage a really long time ago.

* The wiki entries, upon reading them now, don't actually seem to give this impression. The source material does.
** It's actually unclear if that's their home planet, or if they're from yet another planet elsewhere in the cosmos first. Either way, they were in Castrovel before they were part of Golarion.

EDIT: punchline clarification

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

zainale wrote:

why isn't there more maxed leveled cross classing elves? humans learn fast. but it takes the same amount of exp for a human and an elf to lvl up in a class. elves live like 5 life times of that of a human to get to retirement. i am sure with the amount of years an elf has he or she can get to lvl 20 many times. and taking wizardry or barddom out of boredom in their old age to pass the time.

Because when you get down to brass tacks... this is a game, not a world simulator that answers to Bob Nye the Science Guy. And the operating tropes for elves echo all the way back to Tolkien whose elves operated on the Peter Principle... the vast bulk of the population rises to their level of incompetence and remains there.... forever.

[Edymnion]

I don't remember where I first heard it, be it from a game, a setting, a book, or wherever else, but this has always stuck with me:

In the very earliest of days, the gods created the various races, and all was good. Then one day, one of the first humans angered one of the more brash gods, who cursed him such that neither he nor his children nor his children's children would ever know true satisfaction. They would live out their days never truly being able to be happy with what they had.

After it was done, one of the older and wiser gods chastised the younger, brasher god, saying "You have doomed this world. They will never know satisfaction, so they will always strive for more. More wealth, more power. They will be driven by it to spread far and wide and to dominate all that they see, always hoping that the next gain will be the one to sate their lusts."

That human and his descendants went on to do just that. Never being satisfied, they amassed more power than their brethren, and quickly outnumbered them until none but the descendants of that first man remained.

And that is why humans fight and conquer and outperform the other races despite living such short lives. The elves and the dwarves are able to be content, they can reach a point where everything is good enough, and they happily stay here, not trying to better themselves any more because they see no need.

An elf may spend centuries slowly perfecting their ancient arts because once they become sufficiently skilled they stop actively trying to get better, they are satisfied with their ability and then only learn more by accident. Humans on the other hand always see nothing but the flaws in their work, and how to improve on it next time. They are never happy with what they have, so always push themselves higher next time.

Thus, a human that lives mere decades can stand on even ground with an elf or dwarf that has lived for centuries. Because we are a cursed people, and we will never, ever stop.

[hiiamtom]

What did halflings do then?

Also, that curse sounds like Umbrella Corporation came up with it.

[Kazaan]

A Human wizard, lvl 1, starts out at an average age of 22, and took about 30.5% of his minimum lifespan to do so. Meanwhile, an Elf wizard, lvl 1, starts out at an average age of 145 and took about 41.0% of his minimum lifespan to do so. But, after adventuring, a Human wizard and an Elf wizard will level up at comparable rates; if both earn 23k xp over the next 2 years, then the Human will be 24 and a lvl 6 wizard and the Elf is 147 and also a lvl 6 wizard. More to the point, if they both started off as fighters, it would still take them the same amount of experience to level up as Wizards. So why does it take an elf 145 years to learn to be a lvl 1 wizard, but a lvl 5 elf fighter could do it just by earning 8k experience? Why does it take a human an average of 17.5 years to start as a Barbarian, 18.5 years to start as a Fighter, or 22 years to start as a Monk, but if he starts as a wizard, it takes the same 2k experience to get a level in any of those three classes? It's because the 0 experience you have when first starting out at level 1 excludes a "shadow experience" that represents what you learned just based on age and study. Arguably, just growing older and learning vicariously should count for something. Something small, for sure, but something. But different races learn at different rates. As has been said, some races feel "rushed" while other races take it slow and easy, counting years the same way a human would count days. If you really wanted to properly reflect a character, an Elf adventurer would likely go on some adventure and then meditate upon it for a few years before embarking on another. By contrast, a Human would fiend for experience after experience, looking to live a fulfilled life before they die. So, if you want to better reflect this notion of earning experience passively by age, maybe grant a certain amount of experience per year, based on relative starting ages. IIRC, someone worked out once that the "shadow experience" is about 300; it takes about 300 unrecorded experience to achieve the first level of a class for a first level character. So, for a Human, discounting the very young years which, frankly, are devoted to learning how to operate your legs and arms, how not to crap yourself, how to get food into your face without poking out your eye, etc. so we'll start counting from 14 years to represent the onset of puberty; they probably earn at a rate of 85 exp/year if they have plenty of time to devote to it, ranging down to about 38 xp/year if they've been busy for most of that time. So a non-adventurer Human, starting off as a Rogue, who, while not an outright murderhobo, still is deeply interested in entry-level positions for roguery, likely reaches lvl 2 by the time he's 41 or so.

[Drahliana Moonrunner]

Kazaan wrote:

A Human wizard, lvl 1, starts out at an average age of 22, and took about 30.5% of his minimum lifespan to do so. Meanwhile, an Elf wizard, lvl 1, starts out at an average age of 145 and took about 41.0% of his minimum lifespan to do so. But, after adventuring, a Human wizard and an Elf wizard will level up at comparable rates; if both earn 23k xp over the next 2 years, then the Human will be 24 and a lvl 6 wizard and the Elf is 147 and also a lvl 6 wizard. More to the point, if they both started off as fighters, it would still take them the same amount of experience to level up as Wizards. So why does it take an elf 145 years to learn to be a lvl 1 wizard, but a lvl 5 elf fighter could do it just by earning 8k experience? Why does it take a human an average of 17.5 years to start as a Barbarian, 18.5 years to start as a Fighter, or 22 years to start as a Monk, but if he starts as a wizard, it takes the same 2k experience to get a level in any of those three classes? It's because the 0 experience you have when first starting out at level 1 excludes a "shadow experience" that represents what you learned just based on age and study. Arguably, just growing older and learning vicariously should count for something. Something small, for sure, but something. But different races learn at different rates. As has been said, some races feel "rushed" while other races take it slow and easy, counting years the same way a human would count days. If you really wanted to properly reflect a character, an Elf adventurer would likely go on some adventure and then meditate upon it for a few years before embarking on another. By contrast, a Human would fiend for experience after experience, looking to live a fulfilled life before they die. So, if you want to better reflect this notion of earning experience passively by age, maybe grant a certain amount of experience per year, based on relative starting ages. IIRC, someone worked out once that the "shadow experience" is about 300; it takes about 300...

Again... you're looking for simulation logical reasons for conventions that are purely for gaming reasons, that have nothing absolutely to do with logic, science, biology, or even literature.

[lemeres]

Corathonv2 wrote:

This is kind of a logical contradiction which Pathfinder ignores. It could be mitigated if one assumes that reaching level 20 is so dangerous that almost everyone who tries ends up permanently dead. Then 20th level characters of any sort (elf, human, whatever) would be very, very rare.

Yeah, much easier to write off if you assume that most people either die, or go into other careers after the first 10 levels. Wizards can always do crafting (hell, that is why I assume wizards don't take over everything- most just get their mansion, dozens of maids, and their 401k and call it a day), and high powered martials can get jobs doing things like palace guards (where they should typically not see much action).

Or maybe we are just seeing the 'frat boy that is spending 7 years to get his bachelor degree' elves who are too lazy to train properly and just go out to see the world (backpacking across Europe). And there is a core of high powered elves hidden away as a little 'surprise' for anyone fool enough to attack their nation.

[RDM42]

hiiamtom wrote:

MeanMutton wrote:

RDM42 wrote:

Is there a general reproductive advantage to being able to be twentieth level in multiple classes? No? And I could easily see elves that start forgetting their early life as they age, and lose skills they picked up early and don't practice as much. The brain is editing itself and moving now extraneous information.

Elves in Golarion didn't evolve. They've existed as long as nature has.

Exactly, don't pull the strings and accept it at face value. That's the point.

@RDM42: You just asked the question that belongs in the "why are elves lives so long" pile, because there is no advantage to a longer and slower life without being the apex of the food chain. Having elves live their lives in senility while still being as able-bodied as a 20 year old human makes little sense - and while forgetting something isn't being senile what you are suggesting is that elves become continuously reset to 0 on skills and shuffle a low proficiency around.

No. Some old skills erode and new skills build up, things which aren't used go away at least to a degree. It happens with humans, so I see no reason elves should be immune.

[Hugo Rune]

Elves live as long as they do because of Tolkien. They're no better than humans because of game balance.

[Rhedyn]

I would say the average elf is stronger, but the minority of strong humans out number elves.

[Philo Pharynx]

MeanMutton wrote:

It's a game designed to be a simulation of miniature combat wrapped in story-telling. It's not supposed to be realistic.

There's realism and then there's realism. When I say that "I've been studying swordsmanship for fifty years" and I'm beaten to a draw by a 16-year old, it's just seems unheroic.

Milo v3 wrote:

Of course not, they're basically just retraining over and over again. I mean, learned how to play the guitar but now I've forgotten.

Milo and Tacticslion do have a point. But this assumes that they've stopped doing this. And I've found that you don't forget everything. When you start practicing again, you pick up stuff you used to know much quicker than if you'd never learned it.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say that at all. There's no reason for an elf not to be driven, but it's just not that common. Similarly, there's no reason for a human not to be driven,.... but it's still just not that common, which is why, even in the real world, most of us are not virtuoso pianists, black belts in karate, cordon blue chefs, or any other hobby demanding high degrees of skill.

Adventurers are uncommon people. They are the people who do things that few are willing to do. If I want to make a character that's driven I should be able to without having to rule that they took a knock on the head and forgot everything.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

I see no reason to believe that your average elf would have been studying to be a bard when s/he was a youngling of 90 years old, but then gave that up, and instead of becoming a better bard, has concentrated on making elderflower wine.

Except that if they concentrated on making elderflower wine, then they'd probably be good at it. They don't even get extra craft or profession skills out of it.

[Tacticslion]

Philo Pharynx wrote:

There's realism and then there's realism. When I say that "I've been studying swordsmanship for fifty years" and I'm beaten to a draw by a 16-year old, it's just seems unheroic.

Depends, really.

"I've been studying swordsmanship for fifty years; of course I took a four decade sabatical, but I studied really hard, when I was younger, and only recently picked it up again. By the way, have you ever heard of curved blade or branched spear? No? Oh, so those are exclusively us, then, huh?" doesn't really make you less heroic, it makes you unfocused when you were younger in life, and of greater breadth (by two feats) than anyone else who studies your same thing.

In fact, the comparative lack of disparity of the class starting time seems to indicate that you've really only been "focused" on that for the indicated time-frame.

What that means is that an "elf" has been studying for 4-24 years, while a human has been studying for 1-4 years.

Has the human learned faster? Yes. But the elf has learned more. A human gains one feat and one skill point. The elf has gained (at minimum) two feats, two skill increases, and a side-bonus of saves against enchantment, as well as having better perception.

In fact, a quick look at the elven alternate racial traits indicates that all of their racial traits are, ultimately, learned things; the stuff they've gathered over time.

As an example (just pulling up one each):
- keen senses: replaced by a bonus to doing skills slowly due to practice (Ageless Patience)
- elven magic: replaced by training in intensive environments for running (Desert Runner)
- weapon familiarity: replaced by a bonus to defensive casting with practice (Arcane Focus)

Even elven immunities and lowlight vision can be replaced though it's clear these are innate things (Dreamspeaker; Darkvision).

However, Keen Senses, Elven Magic, and Weapon Familiarity are clearly training-related. That's a +2 to skills, +2 to caster level checks (i.e. nearly two feats), and a host of weapon ability (several feats at least). That... that is a lot of lingering training.

Milo v3 wrote:

Of course not, they're basically just retraining over and over again. I mean, learned how to play the guitar but now I've forgotten.

Philo Pharynx wrote:

Milo and Tacticslion do have a point.

Thanks! :D

Philo Pharynx wrote:

But this assumes that they've stopped doing this. And I've found that you don't forget everything. When you start practicing again, you pick up stuff you used to know much quicker than if you'd never learned it.

But... elves don't forget everything. They retain basic proficiency with a wide array of weapons (akin to half a dozen or more feats), and they retain a bonus to both spellcraft and caster level checks... almost as if they'd been practicing those kinds of things at one time. Even keen senses could be taken to be years of observation, "learning" to notice things instead of learning through each specific thing. "Hey, that doesn't look quite right." no matter the circumstances.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

It doesn't say that at all. There's no reason for an elf not to be driven, but it's just not that common. Similarly, there's no reason for a human not to be driven,.... but it's still just not that common, which is why, even in the real world, most of us are not virtuoso pianists, black belts in karate, cordon blue chefs, or any other hobby demanding high degrees of skill.

Philo Pharynx wrote:

Adventurers are uncommon people. They are the people who do things that few are willing to do. If I want to make a character that's driven I should be able to without having to rule that they took a knock on the head and forgot everything.

But... you're conflating things, here.

First, an adventurer doesn't particularly start at a given age - many do, but not all. In fact, the iconic wizard has lived an entire life prior to adopting wizardry, and has pretty much nothing to show for it. Why? He's left that stuff behind.

But here's an interesting thing to think about: what if elven "puberty"/teen-dom times were both hyper-extended and exceptionally intense. Everyone looks at "evolutionary advantage" but, frankly, that's not always a thing, regardless of your evolutionary views, in all species - sometimes a mutation just kind of comes along for the ride. It could be related to their exceptionally long lives, for example - or perhaps both that, and their tendency toward a weakened constitution. Effectively a longer, rougher, and more brutal version of the teenage years plus a heavy dose of attention deficit and a slight semi-continuous 'buzz' based on their own biology.

What does that mean? That for a significant period of their lives, elves would become very distracted, sleepy, moody, sore, overly-emotional, kind of high off of themselves, usually unable to focus on a given task or concept for long, and be able to both learn and forget things really, really quickly (for relative terms of 'quickly') and would clarify why the Forlorn don't just take everything over. In fact, this would actually not only explain, but work alongside the official story for Merisiel.

This isn't really retardation, not as we understand it - it's a plasticity of the brain undergoing intense change and alteration (and, yes, hormones, but not just hormones).

This would give a reason for elves to, as a society, be swingy, moody, and emotional - even after they outgrow the basics, they've been so used to the anarchy of their own minds that they just keep to that - kind of akin to how the people often retain the interests that they held in high school, even as they allow the specifics of those things to fade.

Orfamay Quest wrote:

I see no reason to believe that your average elf would have been studying to be a bard when s/he was a youngling of 90 years old, but then gave that up, and instead of becoming a better bard, has concentrated on making elderflower wine.

Philo Pharynx wrote:

Except that if they concentrated on making elderflower wine, then they'd probably be good at it. They don't even get extra craft or profession skills out of it.

Not necessarily - it depends on what you mean by "concentrated" - it could be represented by taking a skill focus and then never accumulating enough experience points to hit a higher level again.

Once you've hit a basic competency, you're just not facing challenges anymore - and many people prefer a comfortable existence to a stressed-out pressure-filled one.

(Also, at that point, you're no longer talking about an adventurer.)

I mean, at 147 years with that "shadow experience" concept mentioned by Kazaan, an elf would only achieve 4th level at most, presuming identical rates to the human (that's presuming 38 XP per year of his life). That's about a +2 difference to stuff, at best.

It's significant, yes, but not that significant. And it could easily be explained as the elf gaining all those shadow-feats, and bonuses to spellcraft and caster level checks... or whatever other racial effects you apply.

Again, basic competency is provided.

There are, in fact, a host of possibilities for variant sentience among the elves - not all of them are easy to guess at, but I think there's been a fair amount of development since they were introduced.

Elves are really cool, and thematically challenging: it's hard to come up with a comprehensible reason why an equally-or-better-intelligent creature compared to humans seems slower to learn things in their early life before taking off like a rocket later. I've struggled with this, previously, as well.

But given biological and physiological effects, and the fact that, technically, what they gain significantly exceeds what a human gains at first level, and comparing that to both game rules (XP comparison) and real life (you just get busy and forget) it seems like there are plenty of reasons.

I mean, I never stopped doing those activities because I didn't like them - I stopped because "real life" got in the way. I'd imagine that elves have real lives, too, you know? :)

EDIT:

Also, there's this!

Rhedyn wrote:

I would say the average elf is stronger, but the minority of strong humans out number elves.

Welp. Confirmed!

Archpaladin Zousha wrote:

Kyonin's army is geared more for woodland skirmishing and guerrilla operations rather than large-scale field engagements where cavalry would be best utilized, right?

James Jacobs wrote:

Correct. Mostly because elves skew individually more powerful than humans but aren't nearly as numerous.

:D

[Envall]

Experience points are an abstraction, they are not actually experience.
Actual experience, as we normal people experience it, is not net positive thing.
When something works, you get bias towards that method. Even if that method gets outdated. Even if the method is actually worse than something else. The "old guy" at work might know a lot, but he might also know lot of bad things.

"Experience points" are just a measure of how important character you are.

[Wheldrake]

Envall is on the right track with this.

"Leveling" is a game conceit, an abstraction and an artificial mechanism which you can't suss out with logic. It's an abstraction meant to avoid endless tedious book-keeping about how many hours your character has spent learning a languge, or to be a silversmith, or to be a better swordsman; about how many battles you've fought and to what degree that has made you a battle-hardened and efficient killer; about how you have prayed to the gods and studied holy scripture until you could summon the vast powers necessary to raise the dead. And so on.

The fact that in many published campaigns a PC can go from novice to world-shattering titan in less than a year shows us that we can't go around trying to draw up logical (or even worse, rules-based) inferences linking time passed living and adventuring.

So all this nonsense about elves "forgetting" things or having to relearn them, simply in a failed attempt to try to figure out why that 200-year-old elf isn't level 20+ several times over is... well, let's be nice... nonsense.

If you look at literature, old guys like Elrond who have been around for many centuries *are* amazingly powerful, and do have amazing skills.

Pathfinder makes a kind of wild stab at the notion of old elves having mad skillz by giving them extra magical and martial capabilities, but IMHO that doesn't come even close to what the situation of a 150-year-old starting character should be like.

Doesn't matter though! The PF rules are designed for playability, not for the logic behind a 150-year-old elf and an 18-year-old human having the same skillset.

[Tacticslion]

Wheldrake wrote:

The PF rules are designed for playability, not for the logic behind a 150-year-old elf and an 18-year-old human having the same skillset.

There are definitely things in which the game doesn't model it's own reality... but part of the fun for many is seeing how the system can create a self-consistent world that runs on its own merits.

This is one of the real reasons that I really like these ideas... that, and, you know, it fits relatively well with what little lore we have.

[RDM42]

Wheldrake wrote:

Envall is on the right track with this.

"Leveling" is a game conceit, an abstraction and an artificial mechanism which you can't suss out with logic. It's an abstraction meant to avoid endless tedious book-keeping about how many hours your character has spent learning a languge, or to be a silversmith, or to be a better swordsman; about how many battles you've fought and to what degree that has made you a battle-hardened and efficient killer; about how you have prayed to the gods and studied holy scripture until you could summon the vast powers necessary to raise the dead. And so on.

The fact that in many published campaigns a PC can go from novice to world-shattering titan in less than a year shows us that we can't go around trying to draw up logical (or even worse, rules-based) inferences linking time passed living and adventuring.

So all this nonsense about elves "forgetting" things or having to relearn them, simply in a failed attempt to try to figure out why that 200-year-old elf isn't level 20+ several times over is... well, let's be nice... nonsense.

If you look at literature, old guys like Elrond who have been around for many centuries *are* amazingly powerful, and do have amazing skills.

Pathfinder makes a kind of wild stab at the notion of old elves having mad skillz by giving them extra magical and martial capabilities, but IMHO that doesn't come even close to what the situation of a 150-year-old starting character should be like.

Doesn't matter though! The PF rules are designed for playability, not for the logic behind a 150-year-old elf and an 18-year-old human having the same skillset.

You not liking something does not make it 'nonsense'.

And elves like Galadriel and Elrond were almost more akin to demigods, and had an artifact level magic enhancing ring to boot.

[Envall]

You can just as have 300 year old Elf who never left lvl 1, even if it is unlikely.

Elf sitting in his chambers, lazing and smoking elfroot will get you that.

[UnArcaneElection]

Drahliana Moonrunner wrote:

zainale wrote:

why isn't there more maxed leveled cross classing elves? humans learn fast. but it takes the same amount of exp for a human and an elf to lvl up in a class. elves live like 5 life times of that of a human to get to retirement. i am sure with the amount of years an elf has he or she can get to lvl 20 many times. and taking wizardry or barddom out of boredom in their old age to pass the time.

Because when you get down to brass tacks... this is a game, not a world simulator that answers to Bob Nye the Science Guy. And the operating tropes for elves echo all the way back to Tolkien whose elves operated on the Peter Principle... the vast bulk of the population rises to their level of incompetence and remains there.... forever.

Wait, that sounds an awful lot like Humans, here on Earth . . . .

[Tursic]

There is a reason there are not a lot of high characters. If you run things by the book, you will get TPKs happening a lot. So a fast rate of growth is not going to have many that survive. Those who just like to live their lives can still earn exp just not a lot. Lets say an elf earns 25exp a month, that is 300exp a year. An elf that lives to be 1,000 years old at that growth rate would be a about level 22. Now a level 22 NPC class is not all that great in combat. Yes, it can take out CR 10 monsters, most of the time. But it is not a CR 20 encounter.

Another thing is that the elf is unlikely to have spent a lot of money on combat gear. How many of you have top of the line body armor, and a top of the line fully automatic gun at home? I would give a fully geared PC at level 10 the win if the two should fight.

[James Jacobs]

My take: Only a rare few have the talent, drive, skill, and destiny required to hit 20th level, or even 10th level and above for that matter.

Strictly speaking, it's only PCs who gain experience points and gain levels in that way. Everyone else in a game would (the NPCs) are controlled by the GM (aka Fate or whatever), and gain levels when the GM says they do, regardless of what they do with their lives.

The game play elements of the game (including gaining experience and advancing in power) are faced SPECIFICALLY at the people who play the game as players and as such their characters... assuming those rules apply to everything in the world is a false assumption.

In other words, the GM and/or the author of the work get to determine the level of all the NPCs. Setting the vast majority of them at lower level and keeping them there helps to keep the world's heroics and great accomplishments limited to the rare few NPCs that become significant as a result of the story we or the GM wish to tell and, of course, to the PCs themselves.

[Ring_of_Gyges]

If you take the rules as written you gain experience by surviving threatening situations, not by the passage of time. Without a GM there to design level appropriate encounters a lot of people just don't survive those threatening situations.

For example: In my first Rise of the Runelords session the 1st level PCs ran into a CR 3 threat and lived. In my most recent session the 9th level PCs ran into a CR 12 threat and lived. But what if that order had been reversed?

A 1st level adventurer who bumps into a CR 12 random monster is dead. PCs live in a lucky universe where they roll into town, hear "strange things are afoot in the tower on the moors, someone should go check it out" and when they go to check it out they discover the strange things are appropriate for their level. A fourth level *NPC* who decides to investigate some strange disappearances could run into CR 1 cultists, a CR 5 serial killer, or a CR 25 eldritch abomination.

An elf who sits quietly at home and never faces much danger stays level 1. An elf who goes sticking his head into danger has no better chance of survival than a human.

In my games the highest level people are the result of large populations, not long lived races. If 100,000 people go adventuring maybe 50,000 die and the other 50,000 hit level 2. If they go on 25,000 more die and 25,000 hit level 3 and so on. Big populations produce some lucky lad who flips a coin 20 times and has it come up heads 20 times. Age has nothing to do with it.

[hiiamtom]

But that's exactly why you don't pull at the game strings. In real life you don't gain experience or talent with a craft by hunting. You do so with dedicated training and only gain it for that skill and a few other skills used in the process. You also improve skills just theoretically by reading or watching instructions to know what you are doing.

The point is that a level 1 NPC that's 30 is identical to an NPC that's 16 - which isn't realistic, but none of that matters for a story. At some point you have to admit suspension of disbelief, but age of elves is not what should be what bugs you first given the rule abstractions.