So I've posted in a previous thread on character creation, though the GM keeps changing tack with where he thinks the campaign is going. As such I'd rather not get too detailed with my builds in case something doesn't work out.
My party will start at level one, and be core only but with no bards (the GM doesn't understand how they work, and refuses our help - he insists he'll learn them in his own time). I've been tasked with some sort of arcane caster, the other side players are thinking of (at the moment): a debuff cleric/monk, a barbarian/rogue, & some sort of front liner.
The GM has said that other classes will be able to be "bought" later, though I don't know if non-core feats & archetypes will be (or even if they're blocked currently). Like I said I don't have a lot of information unfortunately, we'll be character building on Friday but I was wondering if you had any advice with the core arcane gestalt combo.
P. S. If you fancy putting in a quick backstory with any of your suggestions, feel free to do so! The GM has said there'll be lots of role playing, but I've never been the best with making back stories beyond using the random background generator.
Thanks in advance!
Are you allowed to use the Occult Adventures book?
I've been toying with the idea of a Mesmerist/Sorcerer(Fey bloodline). Tons of spells, your saving throw DCs will be through the roof, and you'll more than likely specialize in Illusion and Enchantment. Not only useful for combat, but there's a lot of RP opportunity as well.
Statwise, all you *really* need is Charisma and Con.
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Gestalt, core only, arcane caster? Paladin // Sorcerer (optionally taking four levels of Dragon Disciple) and Ranger // Wizard are both good.
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Core only gestalt ideas for an arcane character? Hmm. Your only real arcane classes are Sorcerer and Wizard if you can't Bard, so we'll start with those.
In terms of mechanics, I'd suggest either blasting away and using Barbarian rage for backup if you're in a tight spot, or buffing yourself and then raging to murder things fast. Barbarian doesn't benefit hugely from Charisma but there's some synergy (you could make a hilarious Intimidate build), and you'd have a potentially fantastic Will save along with lots of hit points and full BAB.
Sorcerer/Cleric: You were blessed by the gods in more ways than one. Maybe divine planning brought you the blood you have today; perhaps a god chose you because they sensed you were special. Now you combine two powerful forms of magic to heal your allies and wreak havoc on your foes.
Clerics can benefit from good Charisma, and having full casting on both sides can be fun. Plus it'll shore up your defenses and give you more utility, since your Cleric spells can be chosen each day and work for healing and support, freeing up all your sorcerer spells for blasting and debuffs.
Sorcerer/Monk: You were a special child, and torn between two paths. On the one hand you sought the ascetic calm of the monk, studying esoteric arts and focusing your mind and soul. On the other, your inner magic struggled for power and dominance, leading to outbursts of energy. Now you pull them together to lay waste to your enemies with only your own body and mind.
ONLY USE THIS IF YOU'RE ALLOWED TO TAKE THE EMPYREAL BLOODLINE. Otherwise this won't work at all. If it does, you get to work a lot off of Wisdom, and combine the survivability of a monk with a sorcerer's offensive output.
Sorcerer/Paladin: Much like the Cleric combo above, you were chosen because you were special. Your blood roiled with power, but you also felt an even higher calling. Now you combat evil with spell and blade, using your heritage for greater good.
This is a great combo that works a lot off Charisma and gives you great setup along with amazing synergy, probably the best in core for this kind of thing. Great saves, healing, support, combat ability, plus sorcerer fun.
Sorcerer/Rogue: From a young age you learned to rely on yourself. It's a hard life for folks who are different, and when you can summon fire with your mind and throw things without touching them when you're angry, you certainly aren't normal. You get by on your own talents you've picked up without teachers, but that's good enough for you.
Social rogues want Charisma, so there's potential synergy here. It's nothing amazing but it's a fun concept, and makes you a nice skill monkey along with having spells.
Certain fighter archetypes benefit greatly from Intelligence, and it would let you take some feats more easily that many fighters don't get to. Thematically it can work well as described above, and it's also the iconic image of the eldritch knight. Lots of utility here.
Wizard/Rogue: Knowledge is power, they say; it makes sense that the more knowledge you have, the more powerful you become. And what are secrets--whether hidden in the back of your mind, tucked in a chest under lock and key, or simply hidden away in a corner--but hidden knowledge just waiting to be gained? Maybe you got training after trying to rob a local mage; maybe you delved a little too deep into the forbidden lore at your arcane college. Whatever the case, you're adventuring now, and the whole world of secrets is out there.
Did I mention utility above? Combine skills with spells and there won't be many challenges you can't handle. Be the ultimate investigator or spy, or even use your arcane talents to become the greatest assassin. Sure, a straight fight isn't fun, but whoever said you had to do that? Just turn invisible and backstab them until they stop twitching!
And of course, Sorcerer/Wizard: Theory and application: two sides of the same coin. Many sorcerers scoff at wizards in their towers, studying magic and seeking to control that which does not come naturally. Likewise, wizards often see sorcerers as dangerous, unlearned hacks, with no skill or finesse. But you walk the line between, combining immense natural talent with a predilection for learning and control. A font of eldritch power, you shape magic to meet your every whim, and move fluidly between order and chaos with each new incantation.
Although you need two high ability scores to make it work, you don't need much else. You're squishy, and action economy isn't incredible, but you are an incredibly powerful arcane caster. Sorcerer spells can be used for blasting and debuffs you'll use every day, while the Wizard side can pick up utility as needed. You ARE the arcane caster.
Those are my thoughts right now, and of course any combination could work for fun; that's just ideas I have of what could go well and be fun to play.
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Man, Core minus bards is really restrictive for arcane casters.
Sorc//Paladin is hard to beat. So beautifully durable. I'd recommend grabbing a reach weapon of some sort, which lets you sneak in some attacks even when you're casting.
You really want good fort/will saves and preferably all good saves. D10 hit dice are nice and d8 the minimum you should accept.
Since you need a full caster and rage doesn't play well with casting that limits you to fighter, ranger, or paladin. Fighter is not a very good class in core. Certainly not when you can't wear armor.
You're forgetting monks, clerics, and druids, all of which give you d8 HD and good Fort and Will saves and some other abilities that an arcane caster may find useful.
And of course, Sorcerer/Wizard: Theory and application: two sides of the same coin. Many sorcerers scoff at wizards in their towers, studying magic and seeking to control that which does not come naturally. Likewise, wizards often see sorcerers as dangerous, unlearned hacks, with no skill or finesse. But you walk the line between, combining immense natural talent with a predilection for learning and control. A font of eldritch power, you shape magic to meet your every whim, and move fluidly between order and chaos with each new incantation.
Although you need two high ability scores to make it work, you don't need much else. You're squishy, and action economy isn't incredible, but you are an incredibly powerful arcane caster. Sorcerer spells can be used for blasting and debuffs you'll use every day, while the Wizard side can pick up utility as needed. You ARE the arcane caster.
Those are some pretty big drawbacks. Casting versatility is great, but d6 hit die and two poor saves can literally kill you in gestalt. Since you don't even use a single casting stat you really might as well go for the slightly tougher Sorc//Cleric (which did make Loup Blanc's list). Quick Channel is nice for action economy if it's allowed.
I would also consider matching either Wizard or Sorcerer with Druid, which has good battlefield control (often with no save, such as Obscuring Mist) and a different array of support and utility spells than the cleric//monk will already have (eg Barkskin). Natural Spell is Core and lets you cast all your spells while in a nice mobile and defensive form like an air elemental. You also get a decent number of skill points, unlike Sorc//Cleric.
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Sorry I suck, I didn't read into the core only thing. How did I miss that? Man I was tired last night.
Ok, if you're stuck with core and want to play arcane, there really aren't a lot of great options for you. Few classes need INT, so you're going to fight to find good synergy.
Paladin/Sorcerer, as has been suggested here many times, is great combination. You'll have good hp, great saves, and only *really* need two stats if you intend on focusing primarily on your casting: Charisma and Con.
My personal suggestion:
Human Druid/Wizard: I'm not going to lie. The first few levels are going to be *brutal*. You'll want human so you can grab Spell Focus: Conjuration and Augment Summoning. At third level, grab Superior Summoning, at 5th take Toppling Spell and Natural Spell. Grabbing the Conjuration (Teleportation) specialization for your wizard will give you some mobility and increase the duration of your summons to help you survive those lower levels.
You don't need 18s in your Wis and Int for this, because summons don't care what your stats are. You'll want to turn into the smallest, most defensive creature you can with Wild Shape and then just drop summons all over the place. We grabbed Toppling Spell because you can take Magical Lineage (Magic Missile) at a trait and drop 1st level spell slot Toppling Magic Missiles to annoy medium humanoid combatants.
You'll eventually want to look into dispel magic to keep pesky casters from using Protection from X on your summons.
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Have you considered Arcane Archer? You'll probably want Wizard/Ranger for high skills and utility. You won't qualify until 7th level at the earliest, but at your second level of AA, you get Imbue Arrows, which opens all kinds of possibilities, like sniping the opposing mage with an Anti-magic field, or hitting an enemy in a crowd of unfortunate souls with a Detonate spell for some truly staggering damage.
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The more I think about it, the more I like Wizard//Druid in this particular party.
You've got a barbarian//rogue, an unidentified "frontliner," and a debuff cleric//monk which probably means a "bad punch" build. That's a lot of attack potential, which means you're better off diversifying your casting than picking up a backup weapon. And since the barbarian//rogue and cleric//monk are likely to dump Int, Cha, or both, you're probably behind on both Knowledge and social skills. It'll probably be harder for the party to scrape together all the important Knowledge skills than to cover Diplomacy and Sense Motive, so it'd be more useful for you to cover Knowledge.
Wizard gives you lots of Knowledge skills on top of versatile arcane casting, while Druid adds basic toughness and a good selection of buffing and battlefield control spells which are diverse from those available to the cleric. The build GM Snowe suggested is fine, though you don't have to focus on summoning to be effective - just prioritize Int over Wis and avoid druid spells that have saving throws. With 20 point buy you can start with 16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8, and as a human or elf get a stat line of 10/14/12/14/18/8. You could also dump Str and/or Cha a little further if you want.
Thematically, the character would be quite similar to Merlin - a mighty magic-user who gains their power from a deep understanding of the laws of nature and all creatures within it.
It's not really synergistic, but you don't have many options that are. Sorc//Paladin, maybe Sorc//Cleric with the channeling, and maybe Wizard//Ranger if you go into Arcane Archer (and then you have the same issue of what happens to your caster level as Atarlost mentioned with Dragon Disciple). Wizard//Druid is however a versatile combo, and one that fills the needs your party appears to have without pulling you in too many directions at once.
Does depend a bit on what the last frontliner looks like, though, and whether the other two are built like I would expect. If the last frontliner is a Fighter//Druid and the Barbarian//Rogue has high Int, for example, the party gets access to the druid's spells and better Knowledge skills.
Wow guys, thanks for all the suggestions! Like I've said, my GM tends to change the character setups so I'm looking at a different one now (details below) but can still use some of your previous suggestions. He's created four groups based on the tv tropes:
Druid
Sorcerer
Wizard
Magus
Witch
Arcanist
Bloodrager
Hunter
Barbarian
Fighter
Monk
Cavalier
Gunslinger
Samurai
Brawler
Swashbuckler
Cleric
Paladin
Inquisitor
Oracle
Anti-paladin
Shaman
War priest
Rogue
Ranger
Alchemist
Ninja
Investigator
Slayer
Each player has been assigned to one trope, I'm the magician in case you haven't guessed. Luckily Druid & Wizard are both on there, but would you do something else considering the non-core options that are available? We're only allowed to use classes within our trope (so I can't dabble in alchemist for example). We're playing on Friday afternoon (some 17 hours away) for reference - thanks in advance!!
Wow that was fast, I guess I posted at the right time! I love your idea, though unfortunately the monk is under the fighter category for this home-brew campaign - I will defiantly look at using it another time though, it sounds great!
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Oh, sorry. you posted while i was looking through things. Well, if you cant Monk, then Arcanist/Magus is good. You dont need Charisma really, and with the Arcana, you can use Broad study(magus 6) to Spell strike with arcanist spells. if he allows archetypes, then Bladebound Magus+Brown fur transmuter is a good combo.
Nice, that looks good too - also: not for me but for the other players, what would you guys recommend? The Fighter and Rogue players are newer, which is why we're taking the role of casters. I've not done a lot of gestalt before though, and never with these restrictions
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If they Want Simple: Rogue+ Alchemist. Its simple straight up Abilitys would be easy to use, Dex+int would be their focused Stats. if allowed archetypes, Underground Chemist+ Scout Rogue, and Trap breaker Alchemist. Its simple, straight forward abilitys that with a bit of ulity and freedom for imagination with the Alchemist Infusions.
If Complex, then Slayer+investigator. Lots of buffs on oneself that increases over time. keeping track can be a nightmare, but might be fun if its their cup of tea. The investigator is a skill monkey, so you will have that ground covered.
For the Fighter, for simple:Fighter+Monk. They do get alot of feats, but its a simple build that allows them to focus or multifocus on what kind of fighting style they want(So a switch hitter, Great sword focus) Ect. If allowing archetypes, then I Would go Lore Warden Fighter+ Kata Master Monk. Its more focused on the Unarmed strikes, but it still allows freedom with the build, with high damage the more you level.
For complex, I would do Urban, Invulnerable Rager Barbarian, Gunsliner(Any Archetype)
you would Rage For Dex, Granting bonuses to attack and damage with gunslinger abilitys, and the rage powers are nice to have to use with a gun(Your dm might hate you for this)
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Huh.
Well, that changes things significantly.
Magus//Wizard and Magus//Arcanist are now your strongest options by quite a bit. Great action economy, good array of spells, tough enough to survive. Kensai is a great archetype for this - adds your Int to AC instead of getting armour.
The fighter group is a little less obvious. Barbarian//Brawler is pretty good and might be closest to the original idea - check out Stalwart and Improved Stalwart. However, I'd also consider Monk//Gunslinger as a mobile switch hitter, preferably using Weapon Finesse and an Agile AoMF (or alternatively the Sensei archetype for Wis to hit). Alternatively, Monk(Sohei)//Cavalier - you can flurry with a lance at level 6. Might be easier for a newer player. The big thing about Monk is it's the only way for the "fighter" to get a good will save.
For the Rogue... I really like Investigator//Slayer for full BAB, all good saves, tons of skills, and lots of combat buffs. However I think it might be too much for a new player to handle - there are a lot of swift actions to manage. Alchemist//Slayer is good enough (full BAB, two good saves, almost as many skills, good combat buffs) and much simpler. Don't take Vivisectionist - usually it's good for melee but since the Sneak Attack won't stack with the Slayer's you're better off with the Bombs as a backup attack. As an added bonus, the Investigator and Alchemist can both do some backup healing which is nice because:
If the "cleric" is optimizing he'll want Oracle//Paladin, hands down. This is great for HP healing (among many other synergies) but has a hard time managing all the condition removal spells you might want, so having extracts to fill in holes would be very handy. (If he's not optimizing quite as hard, Cleric//Inquisitor is pretty good as well...)
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Arcanist/Magus is indeed pretty great, and will do interesting and powerful things.
For the others, I'd definitely go Paladn/Oracle for the 'Cleric' player. That combination is made of win.
The suggestions above for the Fighter and Rogue players are solid, but I personally would recommend Slayer/Investigator for the Rogue player even if not looking for complexity. It's not actually super complicated coming out of the gate, and not all too complicated even later on. I mean, Swift actions become something you use carefully eventually...but not until 7th level at the earliest. And even then, you can just take a Swift, Move, and Standard all to buff in the first round. One round of buffing for +5 to hit and +5 damage, along with, say, +4 AC is not a bad round.
As for the Fighter player...he's kinda getting hosed by the setup with all those classes being better as one half of a gestalt than both. That said, Barbarian/Brawler could be pretty great if built right. You can stack on specific Feats to target particular opponents with Rage...which is pretty amazing. Or, for a slightly simpler build, go Mutagenic Mauler and have Mutagen + Rage and all the Strength. Str 26 at 1st level does sound fun...and if he grabs Pummeling Style, he can go with one of the less-used Totems and get fun stuff like flight as a Rage Power.
EDIT: Ninja'd. Ah well.
One last thing - we're doing hero points which I've NEVER done before: what's your take on that? Should I take some feats to take advantage of it, do nothing, or go the other way (anti-hero and grab another feat)?
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One last thing - we're doing hero points which I've NEVER done before: what's your take on that? Should I take some feats to take advantage of it, do nothing, or go the other way (anti-hero and grab another feat)?
hero points are way to fantastic to get rid of for another feat. keep them. there are spells that grant you temp hero points to use freely.
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From the new list I guess it is not core only anymore. If the Empyreal bloodline is available you could go Druid/Sorcerer. This would mean you have a single casting stat and access to two separate spell lists. You also have the flexibility of a spontaneous caster and the versatility of a prepared divine caster. Druid also gives you an animal companion, and wild shape both which will be very useful.
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Hm, that would also be really good. Especially nice party-balance wise if you do end up with a Slayer//Investigator and Paladin//Oracle, which would mean lots of weapon damage and Knowledge skills. Though I'd recommend a domain instead of an animal companion. Animal companions are less powerful in gestalt relative to the other party members.
As for the Fighter player...he's kinda getting hosed by the setup with all those classes being better as one half of a gestalt than both.
Yeah... I get the thematics, but it's not really fair to put Magus//Wizard, Oracle//Paladin, and Slayer//Investigator on the table and then leave the fighter with minimal options for non-combat versatility.
Gestalt, Core Only, Arcane Casting, and no bard huh? Well maybe i am just in the mood for something silly but why not go with that Wis based wildblooded sorcerer and combine it with Monk on a tian human base, your preferred verbal component could be "yu mo gwai gui fai di zao" :P
Do a Magus/Wizard and send fireballs on the same turn you hack someone to pieces.