My Downloads Page / Humble Bundle Downloads Issues

[dtreth]

IocanePowder wrote:

Devolis wrote:

Some folks seem to think it's helping to post here telling us how much THEY don't care and that we too need to be chill about not getting what we payed for, often while making fun of us. It's not helping and they're wrong.

I think that's a fair point. Telling people how they should feel is almost always a bad idea.

Devolis wrote:

The bottom line is that not satisfying your customers is bad business, no matter the reason, and not providing goods and services they've payed for in a timely fashion is not OK.

Here's where I take issue with your post: What's a timely fashion? Their system can't handle the load and they're taking steps to fix the problem with more hardware. Without trying to minimize the genuine disappointment you are feeling, how would you handle this situation in Paizo's shoes? Would you want Paizo to stop offering the Bundle, refund your money, and pack their things up?

Given the reality of the situation, what outcome do you want?

For most people a "timely fashion" for a digital piece of work is "however fast my connection can download it". The problem is NOT with their ability to get the file to me, it's in applying their DRM. A lot of people, ESPECIALLY Humble devotees, hate DRM no matter what. And in this case, it's SOLELY for Pathfinder Society use that it even matters (to us; however much you believe in copyright laws it's Paizo's deal not ours).

Just because there's no easy immediate solution (but by the way, there have been at least three suggestions that would work, but not in a way Paizo would like) doesn't mean there isn't a reason to be legitimately upset.

[dtreth]

Samy wrote:

This is a good training exercise for potential future subscribers. Every month we go through the same thing. "Some people have their PDF already? When does mine ship when does mine ship??"

So now you're admitting that all the people who say there's never a problem when there isn't a Humble Bundle were lying? I now have less sympathy for Paizo; if they had even modest slowdowns during normal times, then they should have known even a modest Humble Bundle response would be problematic.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

dtreth wrote:

For most people a "timely fashion" for a digital piece of work is "however fast my connection can download it". The problem is NOT with their ability to get the file to me, it's in applying their DRM. A lot of people, ESPECIALLY Humble devotees, hate DRM no matter what. And in this case, it's SOLELY for Pathfinder Society use that it even matters (to us; however much you believe in copyright laws it's Paizo's deal not ours).
Just because there's no easy immediate solution (but by the way, there have been at least three suggestions that would work, but not in a way Paizo would like) doesn't mean there isn't a reason to be legitimately upset.

It also matters because of other reasons, not just for PFS. The watermarking is done by MANY other sites. DriveThruRPG does it with most PDFs, etc.

As for the 'at least three suggestions that would work, but not in a way Paizo would like' why should they waste time on those temporary fixes when they can be working on a fix to the actual problem?

[dtreth]

Diekssus wrote:

Lithin wrote:

Hiya,

Is it possible to bulk download documents? Buying the big humble bundle you have to download a ton of different files instead of just 1 zipped.

Paizo files are marked with your own personal watermark. all files need to be individually watermarked, its for that reason that you'll have to download so many sepperate files.

No, that's just not true. Because Paizo never anticipated something so braindead obvious as someone wanting to download all of the things they purchased at the same time, they never thought to code the thing to work for that scenario.

[Tempest_Knight]

I, for one, never offer to run a module/scenario I don't have 'on hand', just in case I have issues getting the module/scenario on time.

I have stated that if I can get a specific module/scenario on time I will run it, but always have the 'backup' planned ahead.

(ie. "I'll run Scenario B if I can get it in time, otherwise I'll run Scenario A.")

Not meant as an accusation or recrimination, just my take on planning for PFS.

~

I had about half of the material already, but the balance and a second Beginner Box for $25 was too good to pass up. AND I get to feel good about buying MORE gaming stuff because it's for charity!

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

dtreth wrote:

Samy wrote:

This is a good training exercise for potential future subscribers. Every month we go through the same thing. "Some people have their PDF already? When does mine ship when does mine ship??"

So now you're admitting that all the people who say there's never a problem when there isn't a Humble Bundle were lying? I now have less sympathy for Paizo; if they had even modest slowdowns during normal times, then they should have known even a modest Humble Bundle response would be problematic.

Way to take something out of context (though he was missing some context)

SUBSCRIBERS get physical books sent to them and then they also get the PDF copy at no additional charge. However, their account is not flagged for the PDF until their order is ready to ship. SO yes, sometimes I might get my order shipped before yours, which means I would get my PDF before you. It's not a 'slowdown' it's a matter of shipping of the actual product.

[dtreth]

Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

dtreth wrote:

For most people a "timely fashion" for a digital piece of work is "however fast my connection can download it". The problem is NOT with their ability to get the file to me, it's in applying their DRM. A lot of people, ESPECIALLY Humble devotees, hate DRM no matter what. And in this case, it's SOLELY for Pathfinder Society use that it even matters (to us; however much you believe in copyright laws it's Paizo's deal not ours).
Just because there's no easy immediate solution (but by the way, there have been at least three suggestions that would work, but not in a way Paizo would like) doesn't mean there isn't a reason to be legitimately upset.

It also matters because of other reasons, not just for PFS. The watermarking is done by MANY other sites. DriveThruRPG does it with most PDFs, etc.

As for the 'at least three suggestions that would work, but not in a way Paizo would like' why should they waste time on those temporary fixes when they can be working on a fix to the actual problem?

I made no judgement either way, but I can TOTALLY understand someone who clicked through from Humble (WHICH, by the way, originally incorrectly described this as DRM-free) would chafe at that. I normally do too, but in this case I understand the margins and Paizo isn't Microsoft. Saying other people do it too is just an excuse, nothing more, nothing less. The old adage about jumping off a bridge comes to mind.

As for your other comment, BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE ANGRY AND COMPANIES SHOULD DO WHATEVER THEY CAN TO QUELL CUSTOMER OUTRAGE! I shouted it because this point has been repeated ad nauseum, but a lot of you still aren't getting it. Maybe you'll read it if it's all-caps.

[dtreth]

Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

dtreth wrote:

Samy wrote:

This is a good training exercise for potential future subscribers. Every month we go through the same thing. "Some people have their PDF already? When does mine ship when does mine ship??"

So now you're admitting that all the people who say there's never a problem when there isn't a Humble Bundle were lying? I now have less sympathy for Paizo; if they had even modest slowdowns during normal times, then they should have known even a modest Humble Bundle response would be problematic.

Way to take something out of context (though he was missing some context)

SUBSCRIBERS get physical books sent to them and then they also get the PDF copy at no additional charge. However, their account is not flagged for the PDF until their order is ready to ship. SO yes, sometimes I might get my order shipped before yours, which means I would get my PDF before you. It's not a 'slowdown' it's a matter of shipping of the actual product.

So I didn't take anything out of context, you yourself admit it was presented lacking that context.

OK, so I withdraw that criticism but return with: you need to physically ship them before giving them the PDF? I now have 0 faith in Paizo technical support. However, the game is JUST SO COOL all of my misgivings will most likely wash away when I have my very own "personalised" book.

[J4RH34D]

dtreth wrote:

Samy wrote:

This is a good training exercise for potential future subscribers. Every month we go through the same thing. "Some people have their PDF already? When does mine ship when does mine ship??"

So now you're admitting that all the people who say there's never a problem when there isn't a Humble Bundle were lying? I now have less sympathy for Paizo; if they had even modest slowdowns during normal times, then they should have known even a modest Humble Bundle response would be problematic.

It isn't a slowdown of downloads. They manage their release schedule to prevent any slowdowns.

I did a bit of maths earlier, just so people can see how massive a task this is for the server.

30702 people at an average of lets say 20 pdfs.
30702*20= 614040 pdfs

lets say 30 pages on average a pdf, most are more, but I am bassing it off of the PFS scenarios.

614040*30= 18 421 200 pages that need to be watermarked

That is a bucketload, and that is using conservative estimates. If we assume everyone beat average you are looking at 43 pdfs per person, and your average page count is probably closer to a hundred or more. Those numbers give us a page count to be watermarked of 132 018 600 pages to be bookmarked.

Going by the PFS scenarios its a 5mb file per 25 pages or so. So 132 018 600 pages = 26.4 TB of data that they need to deal with generating and distributing. IT IS A LOT

[thegrayquill]

Hooyah for money raised for a good cause.
Hooyah to the IT team that is working to get this all fixed.
Hooyah to the gamers old and new realizing that filling this forum with inflammatory remarks is senseless.

Thank you to the community managers and devs taking the time to interact and update us all.

Stay patient comrades, and I don't know, consider that sometimes awesome spells require unexpected casting times.

[Twitchontv]

techtarget.com said wrote:

Digital rights management (DRM) is a systematic approach to copyright protection for digital media. The purpose of DRM is to prevent unauthorized redistribution of digital media and restrict the ways consumers can copy content they've purchased. DRM products were developed in response to the rapid increase in online piracy of commercially marketed material, which proliferated through the widespread use of peer-to-peer file exchange programs. Typically DRM is implemented by embedding code that prevents copying, specifies a time period in which the content can be accessed or limits the number of devices the media can be installed on.

None of these things are strictly applicable to the watermarking system that paizo, drivethru.com, and most other online pdf retailers use to mark their documents.

[thegrayquill]

Just as an update, I have had a few personalizing at once, and it is seeming like every 15 minutes or so the server will burp out a few for me to download.

In this time I have updated my profile, drank a red bull, considered character ideas, considered how to completely ruin my characters' lives...

Yeah just keep checking them and it should work :) In the meantime immerse yourself in the community and prepare for the awesome coming your way.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Twitchontv wrote:

techtarget.com said wrote:

Digital rights management (DRM) is a systematic approach to copyright protection for digital media. The purpose of DRM is to prevent unauthorized redistribution of digital media and restrict the ways consumers can copy content they've purchased. DRM products were developed in response to the rapid increase in online piracy of commercially marketed material, which proliferated through the widespread use of peer-to-peer file exchange programs. Typically DRM is implemented by embedding code that prevents copying, specifies a time period in which the content can be accessed or limits the number of devices the media can be installed on.

None of these things are strictly applicable to the watermarking system that paizo, drivethru.com, and most other online pdf retailers use to mark their documents.

Yeah, watermarks are like DRM-Ultralite.

[dtreth]

Twitchontv wrote:

techtarget.com said wrote:

Digital rights management (DRM) is a systematic approach to copyright protection for digital media. The purpose of DRM is to prevent unauthorized redistribution of digital media and restrict the ways consumers can copy content they've purchased. DRM products were developed in response to the rapid increase in online piracy of commercially marketed material, which proliferated through the widespread use of peer-to-peer file exchange programs. Typically DRM is implemented by embedding code that prevents copying, specifies a time period in which the content can be accessed or limits the number of devices the media can be installed on.

None of these things are strictly applicable to the watermarking system that paizo, drivethru.com, and most other online pdf retailers use to mark their documents.

Are you kidding me? The literal purpose is to catch people who try to make unauthorized copies and redistribute it to their friends/for a profit and use them in official Pathfinder capacity. It's literally in the definition. If you believe it's right, then say so, but don't hide behind possible technicalities. Defend your position like you believe in it.

It seems like you went with what comes after the word "typically", which is, you know, not "always", or they would have used that word.

[Twitchontv]

Also, FWIW the download page started running really smoothly just a second ago. At least on my end. Kudos to the IT team at paizo for keeping the servers from bursting into flames over the last few days.

[Zelda Marie Lupescu]

Woo hoo! Just snagged the Inner Sea World Guide :)

[Siedras]

Well, in the last hour I've managed to download just about everything I want to for the moment.

[Carrion Crow]

Well, if nothing else, the thread is doing a good job, not just in terms of useful information from both staff and members, it's providing a giggle or three as well.
On that jovial note, anyone feel like joining in a spirited late night rendition of 47 trillion bottles of beer on the wall?

[Lissa Guillet]

Twitchontv wrote:

Also, FWIW the download page started running really smoothly just a second ago. At least on my end. Kudos to the IT team at paizo for keeping the servers from bursting into flames over the last few days.

<3

[Tempest_Knight]

dtreth wrote:

Twitchontv wrote:

techtarget.com said wrote:

Digital rights management (DRM) is a systematic approach to copyright protection for digital media. The purpose of DRM is to prevent unauthorized redistribution of digital media and restrict the ways consumers can copy content they've purchased. DRM products were developed in response to the rapid increase in online piracy of commercially marketed material, which proliferated through the widespread use of peer-to-peer file exchange programs. Typically DRM is implemented by embedding code that prevents copying, specifies a time period in which the content can be accessed or limits the number of devices the media can be installed on.

None of these things are strictly applicable to the watermarking system that paizo, drivethru.com, and most other online pdf retailers use to mark their documents.

Are you kidding me? The literal purpose is to catch people who try to make unauthorized copies and redistribute it to their friends/for a profit and use them in official Pathfinder capacity. It's literally in the definition. If you believe it's right, then say so, but don't hide behind possible technicalities. Defend your position like you believe in it.

It seems like you went with what comes after the word "typically", which is, you know, not "always", or they would have used that word.

Can I freely copy my Watermarked PDFs? Yes.

Does it require proprietary software/hardware that restricts my ability to interact with the Digital property? No.

The Watermark is solely to show 'ownership' it is the same as writing your name in a book you have purchased, only this time it is the vender writing it.

It does not meet the criteria of DRM in any way shape or form.

[Twitchontv]

The intent is the same, yes. But note the last sentence of the definition I provided. I've been able to download my purchased files as many times as I would like onto as many devices as I need to with no problems or time limitations. Just some extra characters imprinted onto my pages to prove that I own them.

[Luna Shiratori]

Meow!

[dtreth]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Twitchontv wrote:

Also, FWIW the download page started running really smoothly just a second ago. At least on my end. Kudos to the IT team at paizo for keeping the servers from bursting into flames over the last few days.

<3

I gotta give it up to the response team, too, because their task was impossible and they managed to almost do it anyway. I have two files now! (admittedly one of them is the GM screen, but still!)

[Anon A Mouse]

This conflict makes me sad (and yet...I can't stop reading). Instead I will focus on the happy fact that my player's guide is now downloading. \o/

[dtreth]

Twitchontv wrote:

None of these things are strictly applicable to the watermarking system that paizo, drivethru.com, and most other online pdf retailers use to mark their documents.

Are you kidding me? The literal purpose is to catch people who try to make unauthorized copies and redistribute it to their friends/for a profit and use them in official Pathfinder capacity. It's literally in the definition. If you believe it's right, then say so, but don't hide behind possible technicalities. Defend your position like you believe in it.

It seems like you went with what comes after the word "typically", which is, you know, not "always", or they would have used that word. The intent is the same, yes. But note the last sentence of the definition I provided. I've been able to download my purchased files as many times as I would like onto as many devices as I need to with no problems or time limitations. Just some extra characters imprinted onto my pages to prove that I own them.

So you DID read the part after "typically" as if those were the defining features, rather than, "typically" how it's done. Note the usage of "or" there. It's the classic programmer's or, meaning it doesn't have to do all three of those things. Any are sufficient. It means digitally managing the rights, which is PRECISELY what is being done here.

[Steve Geddes]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Tempest_Knight wrote:

Given the load influx, I'm surprised we haven't seen a complete crash of the system.

Or at least the a systemic crash of the download system.

If you don't work in a Tech field, I'm not sure you understand the scale of the issue...

It is amazing that Paizo's systems have stayed up with not major loss of service. Paizo is working to upgrade some of the hardware to be able to deal with the increased load.

It takes time... given the masses that have bought (and are still buying) the Humble Bundle, I would have expected to see a day or two of LOS. That hasn't happened.

This is what is called 'lag'. It happens when runtime resources are overloaded by usage requests.

It was a little touchy the first day. We're still having to manually maintain some parts of our system and we knew that we'd likely have to do that going in and that things would get better as the day progressed. We're lucky we found a bug at zero hour and fixed it or else our load would have been much much worse. But it was a lot more than we predicted and a lot more front heavy. Consequently, some of us have gotten more sleep than others but we're chugging on through as best we can. We learned a lot. ^_^ That's always good in my book.

Thanks, Lissa (and cort, presumably).

I'm not downloading anything, but the site seems to have sped up in the last little while. Although there's been a recent worrying return of you-know-who. :(

[thegrayquill]

Seriously, if you guys could take your quarrel to direct messages, that would be really considerate to the rest of us who don't really care to see the squabble, and could also de-escalate the situation before more people with "opinions" jump in.

[Lissa Guillet]

dtreth wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Twitchontv wrote:

Also, FWIW the download page started running really smoothly just a second ago. At least on my end. Kudos to the IT team at paizo for keeping the servers from bursting into flames over the last few days.

<3

I gotta give it up to the response team, too, because their taks was impossible and they managed to almost do it anyway. I have two files now! (admittedly one of them is the GM screen, but still!)

Yeah, I can't do a ton, but I can very occasionally blow the queue and let people who are in right now and testing get some stuff fairly quickly. It's kind of pointless when we're on the onslaught because it gets lost in all the requests but very late at night when I'm trying to update things, it can make sense. It's a very broad stroke.

[Lissa Guillet]

Steve Geddes wrote:

I'm not downloading anything, but the site seems to have sped up. Although there's been a recent worrying return of you-know-who. :(

Cort will be doing morning shift. I've basically been here since 9 and didn't get much sleep last night though I got to go home for a few hours.

[thegrayquill]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

dtreth wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Twitchontv wrote:

Also, FWIW the download page started running really smoothly just a second ago. At least on my end. Kudos to the IT team at paizo for keeping the servers from bursting into flames over the last few days.

<3

I gotta give it up to the response team, too, because their taks was impossible and they managed to almost do it anyway. I have two files now! (admittedly one of them is the GM screen, but still!)

Yeah, I can't do a ton, but I can very occasionally blow the queue and let people who are in right now and testing get some stuff fairly quickly. It's kind of pointless when we're on the onslaught because it gets lost in all the requests but very late at night when I'm trying to update things, it can make sense.

I now worship at the shrine of Lissa. Kindly list your domains so I know what spells I have access to.

[dtreth]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

dtreth wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Twitchontv wrote:

Also, FWIW the download page started running really smoothly just a second ago. At least on my end. Kudos to the IT team at paizo for keeping the servers from bursting into flames over the last few days.

<3

I gotta give it up to the response team, too, because their taks was impossible and they managed to almost do it anyway. I have two files now! (admittedly one of them is the GM screen, but still!)

Yeah, I can't do a ton, but I can very occasionally blow the queue and let people who are in right now and testing get some stuff fairly quickly. It's kind of pointless when we're on the onslaught because it gets lost in all the requests but very late at night when I'm trying to update things, it can make sense.

No no, I am ALL FOR the turn and burn approach, I am very scorched earth on those types f things. Blowing the queue might alleviate the problem of people hammering the site for the same document after it times out, too (depending on how exactly your system works). But if all you can do is get testers time to test that's invaluable right now. I come from QA, so I immediately go "did this have enough QA time?" and "if you want to know where your bottlenecks are, ask QA. They'll tell you exactly when they get up for coffee."

[Steve Geddes]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Steve Geddes wrote:

I'm not downloading anything, but the site seems to have sped up. Although there's been a recent worrying return of you-know-who. :(

Cort will be doing morning shift. I've basically been here since 9 and didn't get much sleep last night though I got to go home for a few hours.

I'll thank you in person at Paizocon. The overtime doesn't go unnoticed or unappreciated here on the other side of the world. :)

[QuillKnight]

As someone who is mostly ignorant of Pathfinder (and therefore Paizo), I cannot speak to how they do business. I've seen a few videos and read some posts, and from what I can tell, it seems like they're legitimately doing everything they can. Is the layout and download system on their site weird and annoying? Yes. Should they have expected these numbers from the deal they're offering through Humble Bundle? Probably. Am I satisfied that the Paizo techies are doing everything in their power to fix this. Mostly.

But what I'm seriously concerned about is the fact that, while I'm pretty patient, a lot of people aren't. And with a very large portion (likely the vast majority) of the traffic on the site being people new to Pathfinder, Paizo, and the idiosyncrasies of this specific website, a lot of people are just going to get confused, give up in exasperation, or both. It's easy to dismiss this as 'their loss,' but those people can still talk to other people, and with nothing but frustration coming across, this could seriously damage Paizo's reputation.

And there's more to confuse the newbies than just the fact that their downloads aren't working and being asked to click on the link they've just clicked... again (if they even notice the rather unassuming text asking them to do so). The downloads page will boot you out if you're idle for about five minutes, despite the message saying you should wait a few minutes. The books are grouped into all sorts of confusing categories, there are no obvious distinctions between standard Pathfinder and Pathfinder Society (I'm guessing that's an official group of players, but I don't know), and there are so many 'helpful' links that you're just drowning in information right off the bat.

It's after midnight, I finally got ONE file to download after two days of endless clicking, and my brain is fried, so I don't have any direct solutions to this at the moment, but I definitely think that something more than apologies (however sincere) and requests to be patient (however understandable) is called for in the face of this massive influx of new, bewildered users.

[Lissa Guillet]

thegrayquill wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

dtreth wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

Twitchontv wrote:

Also, FWIW the download page started running really smoothly just a second ago. At least on my end. Kudos to the IT team at paizo for keeping the servers from bursting into flames over the last few days.

<3

I gotta give it up to the response team, too, because their taks was impossible and they managed to almost do it anyway. I have two files now! (admittedly one of them is the GM screen, but still!)

Yeah, I can't do a ton, but I can very occasionally blow the queue and let people who are in right now and testing get some stuff fairly quickly. It's kind of pointless when we're on the onslaught because it gets lost in all the requests but very late at night when I'm trying to update things, it can make sense.

I now worship at the shrine of Lissa. Kindly list your domains so I know what spells I have access to.

Lawful Good Technology Sun Fire

[Anon A Mouse]

Yes, I feel great sympathy both for those who have been frustrated by being unable to download their pdfs and for those who have doubtless been working like crazy to deal with all the load issues.

I appreciate all the Paizo people's hard work and hope you will soon have a reduction in stress. :-)

[thegrayquill]

Lissa Guillet wrote:

thegrayquill wrote:

I now worship at the shrine of Lissa. Kindly list your domains so I know what spells I have access to.

Lawful Good Technology Sun Fire

Favored Weapon: Compressed Air?

[Roman Levin]

Zelda Marie Lupescu wrote:

The link is to tell you the current situation, which right now so far is that they are working on upgrading their hardware as we speak.

An actual time frame is not something they can give definitively, but just know that you will get your books, whether it's now or a week from now (but hopefully not that long, since they are upgrading their hardware tonight.) They aren't going anywhere and you can download them again and again, even if they are updated in the future (which happens a lot for the Core line especially) you will always be able to get the latest PDF.

The reason the system is so terrible right now is the load on the servers is highly abnormal...

I don't think it's very user friendly to point people to what should be a status page, when it's a long forum thread where the first page (only page most people will see) is just customers complaining. I know it doesn't work - I want to know when Paizo estimates it will work.

I appreciate your answer, but as someone who just created their Paizo account yesterday, what I'm looking for is someone marked as a Paizo employee telling me what's going on.

As for not being able to get a timeframe - that's pretty disappointing. I understand why they are having issues, and I understand that they did not expect this kind of slowdown. But consider my point of view: I've never used this site. All I saw is a sales page where I can give money for digital downloads. In the Humble Bundle context, a digital download is expected to be available immediately. Now I'm faced with this confusing interface that asks me to click on a link again, but wait ten seconds first. And it doesn't work. And it kicks you out after a while and makes you input your password again. This is pretty bad user experience.

What I would expect as a customer:
1. Have a big banner at the top of the sales page, telling people that there are technical issues, and they might have to wait to download their books. If I knew there was an issue with downloads, I'd have probably waited with my purchase.
2. Have a big banner at the top of the downloads page telling me that it's very possible that I won't be able to download anything for a while.
3. On this same banner, an estimate of when I will be able to download my books.
4. Bonus points: an explanation of what Paizo are doing to remedy the situation.

[Lissa Guillet]

thegrayquill wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

thegrayquill wrote:

I now worship at the shrine of Lissa. Kindly list your domains so I know what spells I have access to.

Lawful Good Technology Sun Fire

Favored Weapon: Compressed Air?

Knife actually. Preferably a kitchen knife.

[dtreth]

thegrayquill wrote:

Lissa Guillet wrote:

thegrayquill wrote:

I now worship at the shrine of Lissa. Kindly list your domains so I know what spells I have access to.

Lawful Good Technology Sun Fire

Favored Weapon: Compressed Air?

Would foam darts be under compressed air? (also, why is it always nerf weaponry? I mean, I have a literal nerf arsenal for this purpose, so I get the appeal, I just don't get the why behind it)

[Chemlak]

Zelda, dtreth, please cool it. This is not the place to start a personal feud over "he said, she said, he did, she did, my philosophy, your philosophy".

Agree to disagree, and then ignore each other, if that's all you can do. Personally, I'm happy to see you both here, and engaged. I wish there was a bit less disappointment, but things are what they are, let's try to make the best we can of the situation.