Dim Light gives concealment.
25' from a torch is Dim Light to a human.
So, part of the problem you are having is this statement isn’t really accurate. The torch doesn’t provide 20’ of normal light ”to a human”. Nowhere in the description is that a thing. The torch provides 20’ of normal light… period. Those are its capabilities. That never under any type of vision changes.
Those with LLV are able to see further than the human. But that’s not based on the what the torch does for a human vs. what the torch does for an elf. The torch only ever does what a torch can do and that is a constant. The only variable is that the elf has better vision and can see further with the same level of light (which removes concealment to an increased radius, but it does not increase the actual light level to an increased radius).
You didn’t actually quote any rules to refute anything I said. In fact your opinion seems based on a misquote of rules where you’re saying that LLV moves the light level. It does not, it allows someone to see “as if” and it adjusts the “effective” light level. That’s not the same thing as a torch which actually adjusts the light level in a limited area.
Why does "as if" not stop HiPS, but does stop invisibility?
Someone with See Invisibility sees someone that is invisible "as if" they are visible. Yet, you and I both know the "as if visible, invisible" person gains no benefit against the person with see invisibility.
All reasons that they don't work the same amount to fluff - But Shadow, But Supernatural, But no concealment, have nothing to do with any of rules we are talking about. If you are reading this and you think concealment, or lack thereof has anything to do with my position, you need to start at the top of this thread.
Even illuminating darkness blog points out how elves see:
In areas with light magic only, elves see twice as far. So with daylight, elves get 120 feet of bright light followed by 120 feet of one step up from normal.
Are you claiming that when a Daylight spell cast underground, the area 60'-120' from the source is really "Dim Light" so even though an elf sees Bright Light, you can use HiPs against that elf in the ring 50'-130' from the source, but not the ring 110'-250' from it? To the elf, the ring 120'-240' is Dim Light. And the blog clearly states that the first 120' is Bright Light. It doesn't say "as if" or "effectively."
You wouldn't let someone stealth in that 60'-120' ring without HiPS (or some other special ability) would you? I posit you would not because they don't have concealment. And they don't have concealment because to the elf, it is not Dim Light.
Here is another part where it talks about an elf...
In the rare cases with odd pockets of ambient light, it is possible that an elf experiences a different light level in the darkness spell due to the ambient light being different for the elf.
Here again, it is a different level for the elf.
I know nothing in that blog answers the HiPS question. I wish it did. But it specifically points out that even the "ambient" light levels for an elf can count as different, changing the effects of magic
And please understand, I am only arguing that you see my claim as legitimate and not "out there". I point out and understand the complete confusion of Dim Light due to the many versions of its definitions.
I also understand how Dim Light not being static screws up some spells and abilities. But making it static ALSO screws up some spells and abilities. Can Hellcat Stealth not be used against an elf in that ring 60'-120' from a sunburst spell? I would say it could.
Play HiPS how ever you want. I can't even say you are house ruling it. My point is that I should have clearly shown by now that sometimes the game rules want to treat Dim Light as static (Shadow Jump, Shadow Master) but other rules want to treat it as variable to the viewer (Stealth, Movement, Perception, Track). There is no way that the game can resolve both sides without some change.
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If it is dim light, you have concealment from a human. This means anyone could make a stealth check in this case, because they have concealment from the human and concealment is what is required to make a stealth check.
If the human was a dwarf instead, they could not make a stealth check, because they do not have concealment from the dwarf. They are still in an area of dim light, they just don't have concealment, because dim light doesn't provide concealment against things with darkvision. Kind of like invisibility to blindsight. You have concealment with invisibility to things that see normally. You do not have concealment to something with blindsight.
Now, HIPS. The requirement is that you are within 10' of dim light. You could be in bright light, but have dim light 9' away, and use this ability. You don't need any concealment to use HIPS, because you are near dim light. That replaces the requirement for concealment. It doesn't matter if they have LLV, Darkvision, or any other kind of vision. You can make a stealth check because you are near a dimly lit area.
As to the how, its supernatural.
Dim Light gives concealment.
25' from a torch is Dim Light to a human.
So, part of the problem you are having is this statement isn’t really accurate. The torch doesn’t provide 20’ of normal light ”to a human”. Nowhere in the description is that a thing. The torch provides 20’ of normal light… period. Those are its capabilities. That never under any type of vision changes.
Those with LLV are able to see further than the human. But that’s not based on the what the torch does for a human vs. what the torch does for an elf. The torch only ever does what a torch can do and that is a constant. The only variable is that the elf has better vision and can see further with the same level of light (which removes concealment to an increased radius, but it does not increase the actual light level to an increased radius).
It does more than just remove concealment. Maybe that is the disconnect.
It allows the elf to run. It allows the elf to track without penalty due to darkness on a moonlit night. It allows Hellcat Stealth to work against an elf. It allows the elf to treat that area as Normal Light, for ALL things.
If it is dim light, you have concealment from a human. This means anyone could make a stealth check in this case, because they have concealment from the human and concealment is what is required to make a stealth check.
If the human was a dwarf instead, they could not make a stealth check, because they do not have concealment from the dwarf. They are still in an area of dim light, they just don't have concealment, because dim light doesn't provide concealment against things with darkvision. Kind of like invisibility to blindsight. You have concealment with invisibility to things that see normally. You do not have concealment to something with blindsight.
Now, HIPS. The requirement is that you are within 10' of dim light. You could be in bright light, but have dim light 9' away, and use this ability. You don't need any concealment to use HIPS, because you are near dim light. That replaces the requirement for concealment. It doesn't matter if they have LLV, Darkvision, or any other kind of vision. You can make a stealth check because you are near a dimly lit area.
As to the how, its supernatural.
What is the lighting condition, to an elf, 25' from a torch?
Has anyone created an FAQ post?
I can see it from both sides.
If you can see in the dark, and someone is trying to hide in dark/dim light then you can't hide from them, normally. (You could hide from a human in a dark room with stealth without needing to having something to hide behind, but not from a dwarf). However, the rules for HiPS aren't as clear as they could be in this case, and maybe the supernatural nature from the Shadowdancer's HiPS does something special.
It's worth noting (too me) that other forms of HiPS don't have this problem where their ability to use it depends on who is watching (I'm specifically thinking of Rager's HiPS).
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What is the lighting condition, to an elf, 25' from a torch?
It depends on what the lighting was without the torch.
Outside at noon? Its normally bright light. The torch can't increase this anymore, so its still bright.
Inside a dark underground area? Normally Dark. The torch increases this by one step to dim. Creatures in the dim light still have concealment to the elf, as LLV only lets them see twice as far, it doesn't remove the concealment.
[quoteLow-Light Vision]Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
The light is dim. The LLV character can see twice as far. LLV doesn't change the actual light condition of that space.
Komoda - I found the blog you are talking about. I will read the ensuing thread later, but I read the main blog. It's a thorough description and it also says this:
Which is exactly what I and several others have been saying. Yes, the elf (subjectively) sees things differently. That doesn't mean there is any (objective) effect on the actual light level. The torch still only produced actual Normal Light out to 20 feet, the Elf just has sensitive enough eyes that they see as if it's Normal Light out to 40 feet. That however, has absolutely no effect on where the Dim Light actually starts, which is 25' from a torch.
You didn’t actually quote any rules to refute anything I said. In fact your opinion seems based on a misquote of rules where you’re saying that LLV moves the light level. It does not, it allows someone to see “as if” and it adjusts the “effective” light level. That’s not the same thing as a torch which actually adjusts the light level in a limited area.Why does "as if" not stop HiPS, but does stop invisibility?
Someone with See Invisibility sees someone that is invisible "as if" they are visible.
This doesn't prove your point.
The guy with See Invisible see's invisible creatures "as if" they were visible. This does not "actually" make that creature visible.
Likewise LLV and DV allow people to see through varying degrees of dim light and darkness "as if" it were normal light. It does not "actually" change the light level.
The blog you keep referencing even confirms that...
...Can Hellcat Stealth not be used against an elf in that ring 60'-120' from a sunburst spell? I would say it could....
...It allows Hellcat Stealth to work against an elf....
I do think it would be interesting to play in a game like that. And I do agree that the system is a bit of a confusing mess. However, I don't agree with your position.
Concerning Hellcat Stealth, I would not allow it to work at under a moon lit night against an Elf. I would not allow it to work 40' from a torch either. I would allow it to work when the sun is actually in the sky and producing Bright or Normal Light, and I would allow it to work within 20' of a torch. The feat says you must have Normal or Bright light, so IMO, that's exactly what you must have. An Elf seeing his surroundings as if it's Bright or Normal Light does not constitute actual light hitting the skin of a person with Hellcat Stealth.
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The easiest way to solve this problem is for Paizo not to call several things by the same name when they are in fact several different things.
The Shadow dancer HIPS is completely different than the Rogue HIPS and both of those are different than the Ranger HIPS. Change the name for the Shadow dancer HIPS and the Ranger HIPS to different names. The Ranger HIPS should grant a +10 bonus to stealth and allow stealth while observed when in any of his favored terrains.
I do not see any problem with Shadow dancer HIPS except the Name.
Shadow Dancer HIPS needs a line of errata stating this power does not grant stealth if your opponent has Dark vision or See in Darkness otherwise it is fine IMO.
See invisible does not work VS. HIPS as HIPS is not invisibility but an improved version of the stealth skill an is an EX ability.
You didn’t actually quote any rules to refute anything I said. In fact your opinion seems based on a misquote of rules where you’re saying that LLV moves the light level. It does not, it allows someone to see “as if” and it adjusts the “effective” light level. That’s not the same thing as a torch which actually adjusts the light level in a limited area.Why does "as if" not stop HiPS, but does stop invisibility?
Someone with See Invisibility sees someone that is invisible "as if" they are visible.
This doesn't prove your point.
The guy with See Invisible see's invisible creatures "as if" they were visible. This does not "actually" make that creature visible.
Likewise LLV and DV allow people to see through varying degrees of dim light and darkness "as if" it were normal light. It does not "actually" change the light level.
The blog you keep referencing even confirms that...
Komoda - I found the blog you are talking about. I will read the ensuing thread later, but I read the main blog. It's a thorough description and it also says this:
Which is exactly what I and several others have been saying. Yes, the elf (subjectively) sees things differently. That doesn't mean there is any (objective) effect on the actual light level. The torch still only produced actual Normal Light out to 20 feet, the Elf just has sensitive enough eyes that they see as if it's Normal Light out to 40 feet. That however, has absolutely no effect on where the Dim Light actually starts, which is 25' from a torch.
I had a discussion about this part the other day. Read the rest of that section where it explains what that means. It appears you might be disconnecting the two parts...
7. Will Anyone Think of the Elves?
So what about low-light vision anyway? Those guys can see twice as far via light sources. However, they don't change the actual radius of the magic at all. We'll examine what that means for each step separately, using elves as an example instead of always saying "creatures with low-light vision" all the time:
Bullet 1 In areas with light magic only, elves see twice as far. So with daylight, elves get 120 feet of bright light followed by 120 feet of one step up from normal.
Bullet 2 In areas with darkness magic only, elves are affected by darkness spells in the same region. Since darkness spells quench the effects of nonmagical light sources before applying their reduction, elves should almost always be experiencing the same light level as everyone else (if supposedly "ambient" light was dispersed enough in pockets that the elf's low-light vision was giving it a different light level, chances are the light wasn't ambient to begin with). In the rare cases with odd pockets of ambient light, it is possible that an elf experiences a different light level in the darkness spell due to the ambient light being different for the elf.
Bullet 3 In areas with both light and darkness magic, the elf being an elf does not change where the magics overlap. But where is that? The spells target an object, rather than stating an emanation. For the purpose of determining where light and darkness magics have an overlapping region, look at the spell and determine the farthest radius where it has an effect (for example, that would be 120 feet for daylight, 20 feet for darkness, and 40 feet for continual flame).
So what about low-light vision anyway? Those guys can see twice as far via light sources. However, they don't change the actual radius of the magic at all.
So to break it down:
Bullet 1 In areas with light magic only, elves see twice as far. So with daylight, elves get 120 feet of bright light followed by 120 feet of one step up from normal.
The normal illumination area of the spell is 60'. It clearly states that this light is doubled for elves.
Low Light Vision absolutely changes the radius of the light, it just loses its magical properties when interacting with darkness spells. The magic stops, the light from the magic does not.
Bullet 2 In areas with darkness magic only, elves are affected by darkness spells in the same region. Since darkness spells quench the effects of nonmagical light sources before applying their reduction, elves should almost always be experiencing the same light level as everyone else (if supposedly "ambient" light was dispersed enough in pockets that the elf's low-light vision was giving it a different light level, chances are the light wasn't ambient to begin with). In the rare cases with odd pockets of ambient light, it is possible that an elf experiences a different light level in the darkness spell due to the ambient light being different for the elf.
This part tells you, in no uncertain terms, that elves may see the area differently, even in regards to the darkness spell, a.k.a. magic. They are affected in the same magical region, but depending on light sources, they are affected differently. This is VERY good evidence that supernatural doesn't just trump LLV or Darkvision. It isn't proof, but it is strong evidence. It tells you right there that if the ambient light is brighter for an elf, the elf sees the darkness area brighter than other people do. This is even in spite of the fact that Darkness SPECIFICALLY calls out reverting to ambient light first, which HiPS never does.
Bullet 3 In areas with both light and darkness magic, the elf being an elf does not change where the magics overlap. But where is that? The spells target an object, rather than stating an emanation. For the purpose of determining where light and darkness magics have an overlapping region, look at the spell and determine the farthest radius where it has an effect (for example, that would be 120 feet for daylight, 20 feet for darkness, and 40 feet for continual flame).
This bullet is where it tells you what "elves do not change the radius of the magic" means. And it is complicated.
The magic for Daylight ends at 120', according to the blog. What this means is that a darkness spell 150' away from the Daylight spell would not be affected by the daylight spell. The daylight spell would not penetrate the darkness spell because the actual Daylight spell area ended at 120'. Past that 120' it is just "light" not "magical light". As the darkness spell dissipates all non-magical light, the extended area of daylight does not counter darkness. But the area within is seen brighter to an elf, than to a human.
So, if both spells were cast in a Dim Light setting, the area outside the 120' but within the daylight would revert back to Dim Light and than darken to darkness. If Darkness were cast within the 60'-120' radius of Daylight, it would not revert to Dim Light, it would just darken the area. So for a human, it would go from Normal Light to dim light. For a elf, it would go from Bright Light to Normal Light.
I made This Graphic showing a Darkness spell cast directly at 120' from the origin of the Daylight spell. It shows the different light levels.
If you read each part of the elven example in that blog, I think you will see my graphic matches what they are saying.
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Komoda,
Where in HiPS does it say that someone trying to observe the shadowdancer has to be able to see the dim light?
If you can quote me that text, I'll switch to your side right now.
Has anyone created an FAQ post?Yes.
Thanks, added my FAQ vote.
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It appears you might be disconnecting the two parts...
I'm not disconnecting it. I read it as a whole.
Low Light Vision absolutely changes the radius of the light, it just loses its magical properties when interacting with darkness spells. The magic stops, the light from the magic does not.
You can't separate the two. The "light" is being generated by "magic" so you can't just say "The magic stops but the physical light from it is doubled." That's like saying the torch goes out but the light from it is still there. (That said: YES, the perceived effects of the existing light is doubled for the eyes of the elf.)
This part tells you, in no uncertain terms, that elves may see the area differently, even in regards to the darkness spell, a.k.a. magic. They are affected in the same magical region, but depending on light sources, they are affected differently.
I never said they didn't see things differently. I also never said they weren't affected differently by the same light effect. What I said, and continue to believe, is that an elf's eyes don't actually have a physical affect on amount of light present in an area. They only experience it differently. It's no different that two people experiencing hot water in different ways. I might think it's burning and you might be perfectly comfortable. The fact that you are comfortable didn't make the water any cooler. The fact that I felt like I was burning didn't make the water any hotter. The water was at a constant temperature, we simply experienced it differently.
...
I understand, based on the verbiage used in the blog, where you are getting your position from. I simply do not agree with the conclusion you are pulling from that blog or the position you have on light levels in PF. (Additionally, I don't think the writer was particularly focused on rule lawyer level verbiage in this post. I say that because in the blog the writer even talks about counterspelling a Spell-like Ability, which isn't even possible in PF.)
...
For your consideration:
Darkvision doesn't particularly help against HiPS
Low-light Vision doesn't particularly help against HiPS
Shadows are in the eye of the beholder, in this case the Shadowdancer
HiPS is not OP
Now, these aren't the words of any official rules lawyers. But he is the creative director behind PF... I'd say it's worth considering.
@komoda
The encounter is in an open plain. A high level ranger is there and has favored terrain plains, but not forest. The wizard casts hallucinatory terrain to make everything appear as a forest.
Can the ranger still use HiPS? To the observer he's not in a plain.
My argument is that it doesn't matter what type of terrain the ranger "appears" to be in, it only matters what type of terrain he ACTUALLY is in.
It doesn't matter if the elf treats a space as effectively having normal light. What matters is that the space has dim light under normal conditions.
I think a better example would be just because I'm color blind and can't see red, that doesn't change the color of the car.
I think a better example would be just because I'm color blind and can't see red, that doesn't change the color of the car.
Nice example, wrong analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and you can't see red, the red car doesn't give you seizures.
Shadows are in the eye of the beholder, in this case the Shadowdancer
So I guess no Dwarves should be Shadowdancers!
I think a better example would be just because I'm color blind and can't see red, that doesn't change the color of the car.Nice example, wrong analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and you can't see red, the red car doesn't give you seizures.
But is the car still red?
If I'm the shadowdancer and you're the observer, HiPS doesn't ask if YOU can see the red car. It asks if the red car exists.
Is the car red?
If an elf treats a space as effectively having normal light, does it actually have normal light? The word "effectively" means that it doesn't.
Since the space has dim light (even though the elf treats it as normal), the shadowdancer can use that dim light to hide. Unless you can show that the dim light no longer exists, OR that the elf is required to see the dim light.
This is the link you still haven't shown. A person without HiPS could not stealth in that space, but HiPS is different and doesn't care. In fact, HiPS specifically makes the observer irrelevant, because you can hide while being observed.
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Colors don't actually exist; they are merely the various wavelengths of the electmagnetic spectrum, as perceived by our head sensors and interpreted by our thought boxes.
;P
Colors don't actually exist; they are merely the various wavelengths of the electmagnetic spectrum, as perceived by our head sensors and interpreted by our thought boxes.
;P
Can light have a wavelength of 620-750 nm, with a frequency of 400-484 THz?
Can cars be painted to reflect these wavelengths/frequency combinations?
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Shadows are in the eye of the beholder, in this case the ShadowdancerSo I guess no Dwarves should be Shadowdancers!
If you'd like to take it that way, go for it. What he was getting at was, it doesn't matter what the Dwarf or Elf who are looking for a shadowdancer can see. It matters that the shadowdancer is within 10' of dim light. Which DV and LLV don't change.
I think a better example would be just because I'm color blind and can't see red, that doesn't change the color of the car.Nice example, wrong analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and you can't see red, the red car doesn't give you seizures.
Here is an even better analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and there is a shiny red car in the lot, but because it is so bright, the reflection of the car makes it look pink, do you have a seizure?
I am not asking any of you to agree that I am correct. Only that you acknowledge that you have to ignore the rules for Low Light Vision and Darkvision (aka treat the location of dim light differently for stealth vs. HiPS) to rule your way. And that is not even to say that you are wrong. It might be the actual rule. But it clearly is not written into the rule.
I am sure most of us "knew" that you could use a two-handed weapon and armor spikes with two-weapon fighting. Then all of the sudden the metaphorical hand was born. None of us knew it existed but the Dev team pretty much said it was always there.
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I think a better example would be just because I'm color blind and can't see red, that doesn't change the color of the car.Nice example, wrong analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and you can't see red, the red car doesn't give you seizures.Here is an even better analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and there is a shiny red car in the lot, but because it is so bright, the reflection of the car makes it look pink, do you have a seizure?
I am not asking any of you to agree that I am correct. Only that you acknowledge that you have to ignore the rules for Low Light Vision and Darkvision (aka treat the location of dim light differently for stealth vs. HiPS) to rule your way. And that is not even to say that you are wrong. It might be the actual rule. But it clearly is not written into the rule.
I am sure most of us "knew" that you could use a two-handed weapon and armor spikes with two-weapon fighting. Then all of the sudden the metaphorical hand was born. None of us knew it existed but the Dev team pretty much said it was always there.
Or you could... you know... read the rule. The word "effectively" has a meaning and it is very important to the rules for LLV. You seem to want to disregard this word, even though it has significant impact on the sentence.
You also ignore the fact that HiPS explicitly disregards observers, since it allows stealth while being observed. The ability literally calls out the observer as being irrelevant to whether the ability works or not.
You keep ignoring BOTH of these facts and haven't actually presented anything that nullifies them. Your best argument is to change the word "effectively" and swap it out for "actually". But that isn't reading the rules, that's making them up to suit your needs.
I think a better example would be just because I'm color blind and can't see red, that doesn't change the color of the car.Nice example, wrong analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and you can't see red, the red car doesn't give you seizures.
This analogy nearly summarises the flaw in your argument. Your explanation for how both dark vision and low light vision work doesn't reconcile with how hide in plain sight works according to the rules. Just like having a seizure due to seeing red does not reconcile with being unable to see red in the first place.
I think a better example would be just because I'm color blind and can't see red, that doesn't change the color of the car.Nice example, wrong analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and you can't see red, the red car doesn't give you seizures.Here is an even better analogy. If seeing red gives you seizures, and there is a shiny red car in the lot, but because it is so bright, the reflection of the car makes it look pink, do you have a seizure?
I am not asking any of you to agree that I am correct. Only that you acknowledge that you have to ignore the rules for Low Light Vision and Darkvision (aka treat the location of dim light differently for stealth vs. HiPS) to rule your way. And that is not even to say that you are wrong. It might be the actual rule. But it clearly is not written into the rule.
I am sure most of us "knew" that you could use a two-handed weapon and armor spikes with two-weapon fighting. Then all of the sudden the metaphorical hand was born. None of us knew it existed but the Dev team pretty much said it was always there.
What you're trying to say is that if I a red car and it gives me super strength and I see a red car I don't get super strength because you are color blind. You have nothing to do with it. Does the red car exist? If the answer is yes, I get super strength regardless of any other factors. There is nothing in that ability that says dark vision or low light vision negates it. I mean a monk can abundant step if he can see where he's going. Are you saying if the dragon the monk is fighting closes its eyes the monk can't teleport?
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Only that you acknowledge that you have to ignore the rules for Low Light Vision and Darkvision (aka treat the location of dim light differently for stealth vs. HiPS) to rule your way.
No one is treating the location of "dim light" differently for Stealth vs. HiPS. The location of dim light is always the same no matter who is looking at it. The only thing that changes (and mechanically affects other characters) based on who is looking at it is where the "concealment from dim light" starts. That is why basic stealth is affected by LLV and DV and HiPS Stealth is not.
You keep arguing your point and accusing others of ignoring rules when, as stated above, you are ignoring words in those same rules that express the intent. Words and verbiage like "effective" and "as if" carry meaning in PF. You are ignoring that intent and trying to say that LLV actually has the power to turn dim light on a moon lit night into normal light. And yet you are also somehow arguing that this utter change in light level doesn't effect things like the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jump ability or their Capstone Shadow Master (which have the exact same requirement for dim light)... the argument isn't even consistent with itself.
Only that you acknowledge that you have to ignore the rules for Low Light Vision and Darkvision (aka treat the location of dim light differently for stealth vs. HiPS) to rule your way.No one is treating the location of "dim light" differently for Stealth vs. HiPS. The location of dim light is always the same no matter who is looking at it. The only thing that changes (and mechanically affects other characters) based on who is looking at it is where the "concealment from dim light" starts. That is why basic stealth is affected by LLV and DV and HiPS Stealth is not.
You keep arguing your point and accusing others of ignoring rules when, as stated above, you are ignoring words in those same rules that express the intent. Words and verbiage like "effective" and "as if" carry meaning in PF. You are ignoring that intent and trying to say that LLV actually has the power to turn dim light on a moon lit night into normal light. And yet you are also somehow arguing that this utter change in light level doesn't effect things like the Shadowdancer's Shadow Jump ability or their Capstone Shadow Master (which have the exact same requirement for dim light)... the argument isn't even consistent with itself.
And again, you can't change "where concealment from Dim Light starts" because that would give no reason as to why an elf could Run in that same space.
You are fixated on the "concealment" aspect of how an elf sees the area and ignore the fact that in all things, the area is normal light to them, not just concealment.
And I am not arguing that Shadow Jump or Shadow Master work in any way. I have clearly acknowledged that the game tries to treat Dim Light as static in some cases and variable (based on observer) in others. And I have pointed out that it is broken and impossible to reconcile the two ways.
I have also shown how "as if" and "effectively" carry meaning for "as if visible" and it should be treated the same as "effective radius" but in that case many feel "as if" and "effective" have completely different meanings. I feel they should be interchangeable with the same result. It is not me that is using them differently.
Nothing, anywhere within HiPS or LLV, states that: " The only thing that changes (and mechanically affects other characters) based on who is looking at it is where the "concealment from dim light" starts." HiPS never states LLV or Darkvision have no affect and LLV never talks about moving concealment. LLV talks about moving Dim Light.
But I get that we are not going to see eye to eye. Do you even have eyes? I can't see within that hood.
Happy Gaming.
Komoda,
No, we aren't arguing that "effectively" and "as if" have different definitions. We are saying that "effectively" does not have the same definition as "actually".
25' from a torch, what is the ACTUAL light level in that space? Do you have evidence that the ACTUAL light level changes if an elf can see that space? Because remember, if the ACTUAL light level changes, that means it changes for everyone, including a human who can also observe that same space.
Does the elf change the ACTUAL light level of the space? Or do they just treat the space "as if" it had a different light level?
Cause remember, if the ACTUAL light level changes, that affects everyone, not just the elf. If it only changes for the elf, then the elf's LLV has no impact on anyone other than the elf.
Plus, you haven't refuted anything said by James Jacobs, who disagrees with you.
And again, you can't change "where concealment from Dim Light starts" because that would give no reason as to why an elf could Run in that same space.
Because they can see... They can see perfectly well as if in conditions of normal light. So there are shadows, but they don’t suffer the negatives from impaired vision or blindness. That said, ability to see as if in normal light, largely doesn’t affect anyone outside themselves. The only affect it has on others is: creatures do not have concealment (from the shadows) against them. It's not that hard to explain.
But I don’t see anything that indicates dim light causes hampered movement. I believe it’s only darkness that causes anything beyond concealment and that’s strictly because creatures without DV are effectively* blinded. Read the effects of being blinded in the glossary.
You are fixated on the "concealment" aspect of how an elf sees the area and ignore the fact that in all things, the area is normal light to them, not just concealment.
Because that's all creatures with LLV/DV do that affects anyone outside themselves. Their ability to see as if they were in normal light does not eliminate shadow, it eliminates concealment in that area (relative to that viewer) and means their vision in (and thus their navigation of) an area is not hampered.
And I am not arguing that Shadow Jump or Shadow Master work in any way. I have clearly acknowledged that the game tries to treat Dim Light as static in some cases and variable (based on observer) in others. And I have pointed out that it is broken and impossible to reconcile the two ways.
Okay, the issue (for me) is you are "acknowledging" a problem that (IMO) does not even exist. I don't see where the game tries to treat light levels as anything other than static, with modifying factors that have specific, limited effects. IMO, it is your interpretation of the rules that is causing these inconsistencies, not the rules themselves. In this post you admit that you cannot consistently apply your logic to things like Shadow Jump or Shadow Master without the game breaking down. I reconcile it just fine.
I have also shown how "as if" and "effectively" carry meaning for "as if visible" and it should be treated the same as "effective radius" but in that case many feel "as if" and "effective" have completely different meanings. I feel they should be interchangeable with the same result. It is not me that is using them differently.
Nothing, anywhere within HiPS or LLV, states that: " The only thing that changes (and mechanically affects other characters) based on who is looking at it is where the "concealment from dim light" starts." HiPS never states LLV or Darkvision have no affect and LLV never talks about moving concealment. LLV talks about moving Dim Light.
Please quote anything you think indicates that LLV or DV do anything other than remove the visual impairment of shadow (Which is Concealment and/or Blindness) .
The fact is, light levels and their effects are pretty well defined:
In an area of bright light, all characters can see clearly. Some creatures, such as those with light sensitivity and light blindness, take penalties while in areas of bright light. A creature can't use Stealth in an area of bright light unless it is invisible or has cover. Areas of bright light include outside in direct sunshine and inside the area of a daylight spell.
Normal light functions just like bright light, but characters with light sensitivity and light blindness do not take penalties. Areas of normal light include underneath a forest canopy during the day, within 20 feet of a torch, and inside the area of a light spell.
In an area of dim light, a character can see somewhat. Creatures within this area have concealment (20% miss chance in combat) from those without darkvision or the ability to see in darkness. A creature within an area of dim light can make a Stealth check to conceal itself. Areas of dim light include outside at night with a moon in the sky, bright starlight, and the area between 20 and 40 feet from a torch.
In areas of darkness, creatures without darkvision are effectively blinded. In addition to the obvious effects, a blinded creature has a 50% miss chance in combat (all opponents have total concealment), loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, takes a –2 penalty to AC, and takes a –4 penalty on Perception checks that rely on sight and most Strength- and Dexterity-based skill checks. Areas of darkness include an unlit dungeon chamber, most caverns, and outside on a cloudy, moonless night.
With that in mind, the effects and capabilities of LLV/DV are also quite well defined:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective* radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
* Effective: In both cases above mean “treat as if” not “actual.” Creatures without DV in areas of darkness are not “actually” blind. That said they cannot see in darkness and are thus effectively blind while in areas of darkness. Likewise, for Elves you double the “effective” radius of light, however, the “actual” radius is not affected.
But I get that we are not going to see eye to eye.
Not likely. LLV and DV are very similar to real world, high quality Night Vision Devices. Neither LLV or DV turn night into day, they only let you see when others cannot.
Do you even have eyes?
Yes. I have both LLV and DV.
I can't see within that hood.
That is because my sensitive eyes don't actually abolish those beautiful shadows.
Happy Gaming.
You as well.
Break down the text behind these abilities:
DARKVISION
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature.
It says your seeing “with no light source” not that you become a light source, even just for yourself. The absence of light is darkness, most creatures are effectively blinded in darkness. The creature with DV can see without the presence of light.
Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned).
Because colors are the reflection of light. No light, no color. Proving that DV doesn’t create any kind of light, because if it did, colors would be discernable.
It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise..
In normal light with normal vision.
Characters with darkvision (dwarves and half-orcs) can see lit areas normally as well as dark areas within 60 feet. A creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover.
This part is from the Vision and Light section. The section as a whole is talking about the effects of different light levels. Dim light and darkness grant concealment. DV removes concealment within its radius which forces creatures to find some other means to block observation and use Stealth.
LOW-LIGHT VISION
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light.
As with DV, there is no mention of producing light. Their eyes are sensitive to existing light and can thus see twice as far.
Low-light vision is color vision.
Because it requires existing light. Color is a reflection of light.
A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Because he is able to see more detail with very little light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.
Because the moon is an infinite source of ambient light. For the Elf the moon is like a torch with no radius limit.
Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective* radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
The text specifically says they can see things twice as far away as light limit for an item, it does not indicate in any way that they produce extra light or change the area into another light level. It says they double the effective (not actual) radius of bright, normal, and dim light.
…
If your interpretation of the rules were correct and the presence of a creature with LLV turned night into actual daylight, flip-flopping light levels and all the effects associated with them. That again, would have far reaching effects beyond HiPS, or any other character abilities. Just a few of the effects would be: Plant life around an Elf or Elven kingdom would be vastly differently, because it is exposed to daylight 24/7/365. Nocturnal animals like bats and other things sensitive to light would go crazy or die. Vampires would burn in their presence. Creatures with light blindness or light sensitivity might suddenly go blind in the middle of the night just because there’s an Elf somewhere in the vicinity. The list could go on I am sure.
" Plant life around an Elf or Elven kingdom would be vastly differently, because it is exposed to daylight 24/7/365."
Statements such as this show you do not understand my position at all.
" Plant life around an Elf or Elven kingdom would be vastly differently, because it is exposed to daylight 24/7/365."
Statements such as this show you do not understand my position at all.
Well, you did say Hellcat Stealth works against elves in moonlit nights because they change the actual light level...
Some may find this interesting as well. These are the entries for LLV and DV in the Universal Monster Rules section:
.
.
.
Low-Light Vision (Ex) A creature with low-light vision can see twice as far as a human in starlight, moonlight, torchlight, and similar conditions of dim light. It retains the ability to distinguish color and detail under these conditions.
Darkvision (Ex or Su) A creature with darkvision can see in total darkness, usually to a range of 60 feet. Within this range the creature can see as clearly as a sighted creature could see in an area of bright light. Darkvision is black and white only but otherwise like normal sight.
Unfortunately I've heard this before. I've even had this debate with a PFS GM here on the forums. It is a main driving factor in why I have never gone to a PFS game and probably will not. I am currently playing a game run by a friend online via roll20. There is a searching for party/campaign feature for the site but I have no idea how well it works. If you can get the GM on here, I can debate it with him/her. It doesn't have to be in a thread, I'd be happy to answer any PMs as well.
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Komoda,
Based on the debate in this forum I posted a question to the Illuminating the Darkness thread and linked it to Mark Seifter's Q&A thread. After the holidays he replied to the question here:
Yeah, "actual light" vs "perceived light" is pretty annoying, particularly for features that rely on the exact position of "shadows". I would tend to agree that anything that depends on the absolute light level of an area should just use the way it works for normal vision;...
This is coming from the designer who wrote the Illuminating the Darkness entry and should hopefully eliminate some confusion.
Komoda,
Based on the debate in this forum I posted a question to the Illuminating the Darkness thread and linked it to Mark Seifter's Q&A thread. After the holidays he replied to the question here:
Yeah, "actual light" vs "perceived light" is pretty annoying, particularly for features that rely on the exact position of "shadows". I would tend to agree that anything that depends on the absolute light level of an area should just use the way it works for normal vision;...This is coming from the designer who wrote the Illuminating the Darkness entry and should hopefully eliminate some confusion.
Thanks. It might have to revert to that to make the game work, I understand that. But that ruling/result does need to ignore LLV and Darkvision. My point has always been that nothing in HiPS or any other skill, ever states that it does.
As to the debate, I never asked that people switch to my position. Only that they acknowledge that LLV and Darkvision have to be ignored to reach their position.
To that end, I also posed a question to Mr. Seifter:
While I see no other way to play for most skills and spells that rely upon Dim Light (shadow), doesn't this ruling negate the benefits of Low Light Vision and Darkvision of targets in relation to abilities such as Hide in Plain Sight (Shadowdancer & Assassin versions) even though there is no such mention of doing so in those Hide in Plain Sight abilities?
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Komoda you're wrong get over it.
Komoda,
Based on the debate in this forum I posted a question to the Illuminating the Darkness thread and linked it to Mark Seifter's Q&A thread. After the holidays he replied to the question here:
Yeah, "actual light" vs "perceived light" is pretty annoying, particularly for features that rely on the exact position of "shadows". I would tend to agree that anything that depends on the absolute light level of an area should just use the way it works for normal vision;...This is coming from the designer who wrote the Illuminating the Darkness entry and should hopefully eliminate some confusion.Thanks. It might have to revert to that to make the game work, I understand that. But that ruling/result does need to ignore LLV and Darkvision. My point has always been that nothing in HiPS or any other skill, ever states that it does.
As to the debate, I never asked that people switch to my position. Only that they acknowledge that LLV and Darkvision have to be ignored to reach their position.
To that end, I also posed a question to Mr. Seifter:
While I see no other way to play for most skills and spells that rely upon Dim Light (shadow), doesn't this ruling negate the benefits of Low Light Vision and Darkvision of targets in relation to abilities such as Hide in Plain Sight (Shadowdancer & Assassin versions) even though there is no such mention of doing so in those Hide in Plain Sight abilities?
Low light vision and darkvision do not change ambient light levels.
Low light vision and darkvision do not change ambient light levels.Komoda,
Based on the debate in this forum I posted a question to the Illuminating the Darkness thread and linked it to Mark Seifter's Q&A thread. After the holidays he replied to the question here:
Yeah, "actual light" vs "perceived light" is pretty annoying, particularly for features that rely on the exact position of "shadows". I would tend to agree that anything that depends on the absolute light level of an area should just use the way it works for normal vision;...This is coming from the designer who wrote the Illuminating the Darkness entry and should hopefully eliminate some confusion.Thanks. It might have to revert to that to make the game work, I understand that. But that ruling/result does need to ignore LLV and Darkvision. My point has always been that nothing in HiPS or any other skill, ever states that it does.
As to the debate, I never asked that people switch to my position. Only that they acknowledge that LLV and Darkvision have to be ignored to reach their position.
To that end, I also posed a question to Mr. Seifter:
While I see no other way to play for most skills and spells that rely upon Dim Light (shadow), doesn't this ruling negate the benefits of Low Light Vision and Darkvision of targets in relation to abilities such as Hide in Plain Sight (Shadowdancer & Assassin versions) even though there is no such mention of doing so in those Hide in Plain Sight abilities?
Do you think I ever advocated that it did?