Hide in Plain Sight


Rules Questions

201 to 250 of 338 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>

If that same shadowdancer were a giant, they could just carry the 5x5x5 box as a backpack and hide anywhere they wanted to.

New idea for a bad guy.

Dark Archive

I guess I am just struggling with how it is written versus how it "works." To be honest, as long as your within 10ft you can literally hide from anything by RAW. So you make some kind of box, see Schrödinger's Candle above, carry it in your bag and be undetectable at all times. That is so clearly not the intent, and this is why I think that this needs a FAQ. The rest of this was my beliefs on how a believe it should work. This is why I wasn't citing rules, because there are none. It has the feat text and that's it. Now does hide in plain sight move you into the box, do you get transported, does that provoke? does it just magically help you hide? Do you need a whole 5ft cube? what if there is one in. of dim light. Either this needs specifically laid out, or it falls straight into GM discretion, which I hate, because I don't like to be the bad guy who says "sorry that's not how I think it should work and therefore it doesn't." I don't want to play the villian who says, because this ability could be used ridiculously and is left so vague, I can't go by the rules and thus have to interpret them myself. Now if I played with one of you the ruling you decide upon would be surely different. It is my "opinion" that super mega invisibility is way to broken for a lv 5 ability and if it were a capstone ability i would be much more likely to agree with the other ideas on how it works.


Backpack wrote:
I guess I am just struggling with how it is written versus how it "works." To be honest, as long as your within 10ft you can literally hide from anything by RAW. So you make some kind of box, see Schrödinger's Candle above, carry it in your bag and be undetectable at all times. That is so clearly not the intent, and this is why I think that this needs a FAQ. The rest of this was my beliefs on how a believe it should work. This is why I wasn't citing rules, because there are none. It has the feat text and that's it. Now does hide in plain sight move you into the box, do you get transported, does that provoke? does it just magically help you hide? Do you need a whole 5ft cube? what if there is one in. of dim light. Either this needs specifically laid out, or it falls straight into GM discretion, which I hate, because I don't like to be the bad guy who says "sorry that's not how I think it should work and therefore it doesn't." I don't want to play the villian who says, because this ability could be used ridiculously and is left so vague, I can't go by the rules and thus have to interpret them myself. Now if I played with one of you the ruling you decide upon would be surely different. It is my "opinion" that super mega invisibility is way to broken for a lv 5 ability and if it were a capstone ability i would be much more likely to agree with the other ideas on how it works.

No, you don't move in to the shadowed area, you remain in your original square.

And its not super mega invisibility, it is still entirely dependent on your stealth skill beating your opponents perception skill. So that 5th level character has to take the ability, and has to train their stealth to a respectable level - while the 3rd level wizard just casts invisibility for +20 boost to stealth, and no limitations of nearby areas of dim light.

And not all shadows would qualify as dim light. A shadow cast by a tree on a bright sunny summer day is not something I'd consider dim light. Dim light is the level of light at night during a full moon.

Dark Archive

rainzax wrote:

I read the first two pages...

I like the interpretation that a Shadow Dancer can Supernaturally "cloak" into dim light from 10 feet away by her connexion to the plane of shadow. Cool. Darkvision averted.

For those that choose this route, what to you do for the other "versions" of Hide in Plain Sight?

The issues we are having are mostly only related to the dim light issue. However the others still run into the issue of, do tremersense/true sight break them. "you can stealth even if observed" does not specify visually you simply just get to be hidden. Oh your favorite terrain is large open fields and you were standing 5ft in front of a deity. So, your a stealth PC at level, say 15, your going to have what. 15+9+3+9+2=38ish stealth without me trying to hard, against a CR30/MR10 creature your going to be able to stealth 75% of the time. That is overpowered, it just is. That is capstone level of good.

Dark Archive

bbangerter wrote:


And its not super mega invisibility, it is still entirely dependent on your stealth skill beating your opponents perception skill. So that 5th level character has to take the ability, and has to train their stealth to a respectable level - while the 3rd level wizard just casts invisibility for +20 boost to stealth, and no limitations of nearby areas of dim light.

And not all shadows would qualify as dim light. A shadow cast by a tree on a bright sunny summer day is not something I'd consider dim light. Dim light is the level...

So to get hide in plain sight you have to already have max ranks in stealth at lv 5, and lets say your a half-elf and you take skill focus stealth, and it's a class skill, with what, a 20 dex? that's +19 without any items. So sure a wizard can cast invisibility, using up a spell slot, to be invisible against any creature with only regular sight. A shadow dancer can stealth against any creature with any sight infinite times for the cost of what, putting ranks into you best and most used skill? I mean that is like saying, yah sure bards are good, if you put ranks in diplomacy, bluff, and perform. Stealthing well is their schtick, if you are making sure it is high than you crippling yourself.

Also their are plenty of ways to get dim light. Sure if the outside is bright, than the shadow is probably normal. Then if it is normal a shadow is probably dim. Sure their are times that it won't work but that is like saying quivering palm isnt strong because some times it doesn't work.


Backpack wrote:
rainzax wrote:

I read the first two pages...

I like the interpretation that a Shadow Dancer can Supernaturally "cloak" into dim light from 10 feet away by her connexion to the plane of shadow. Cool. Darkvision averted.

For those that choose this route, what to you do for the other "versions" of Hide in Plain Sight?

The issues we are having are mostly only related to the dim light issue. However the others still run into the issue of, do tremersense/true sight break them. "you can stealth even if observed" does not specify visually you simply just get to be hidden. Oh your favorite terrain is large open fields and you were standing 5ft in front of a deity. So, your a stealth PC at level, say 15, your going to have what. 15+9+3+9+2=38ish stealth without me trying to hard, against a CR30/MR10 creature your going to be able to stealth 75% of the time. That is overpowered, it just is. That is capstone level of good.

Tremorsense would beat HiPS, as would blindsight, scent and other similar abilities.

Just curious, what exactly are you worried about the shadowdancer doing from stealth? Have you ever seen a shadowdancer run amok? I've seen people try to play one and basically... just fade into shadow. The class itself doesn't do damage, doesn't have a ton of utility, and isn't resilient. The Assassin has that insta-kill ability, but it's hard to get a high DC on that save AND it takes 3 rounds of being uninterrupted to activate.

They're both classes that look awesome at first glance, but then you realize there really isn't anything there. They're both flashy with that ability to hide, but once they're hidden they might as well just stay hidden.

Silver Crusade

Irontruth wrote:
Tremorsense would beat HiPS, as would blindsight, scent and other similar abilities.

Sorta? I mean, tremorsense would alert the user to the presence of a creature (in contact with the ground or in the water) in a specific space, but they'd still have to make the perception check to actually see them (at least, I don't see anything in the rules that indicates they don't need a perception check) otherwise they still have concealment (unless the TS user also has blind fight). Normally you couldn't stealth against someone with tremorsense because they are observing you, but HIPS is specifically designed for use while being observed.

Blindsight specifically call out that perception checks are not necessary to "see" creatures, though since HIPS is designed to work under observation...this is the most uncertain scenario here. Personally I would say blindsight beats it, but that's just me.

Scent is a yes/no kinda thing. Once you are within 5' it allows you to pinpoint, but it doesn't indicate that it breaks concealment considering, again, HIPS works while being observed (observed, in this case, meaning "being smelled"), so as I read it you would know the square, but they would still have concealment.

To put it in a real world example: I'm walking through the woods and hear a timber rattler rattling near my feet. However, it is still hard to see because of its camouflage. I've pinpointed the location, but until my perception is able to beat it's stealth, I suffer a miss chance if I want to club it.

Silver Crusade

Or, if you prefer a fantasy example, think of the Gray Men from Wheel of Time. They are as visible as anyone else, but (due to their supernatural abilities) most times you just don't notice them, even if they are standing in an empty well-lit room, until they do something obvious (like try to stab you).


Blindsight specifically says you don't have to make Perception checks and ignores concealment.

I agree that most of the others would still have to deal with concealment, but you'd know the precise location and not have to guess squares. Against opponents with these senses you have to succeed on a Stealth check to gain the benefits of a Displacement spell.

Also, to regain stealth after attacking is a move action, so to constantly use this you can only ever attack once per round.


Irontruth wrote:
Also, to regain stealth after attacking is a move action, so to constantly use this you can only ever attack once per round.
Is that ever explicitly spelled out or are you relying on this:
Stealth wrote:

Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.

It specifically calls out Sniping, but otherwise it's "none" or part of movement, which is frustratingly vague.


Either way, it's a move action. You either have to move, which triggers the opportunity to make a Stealth check, or you have to allow the sniping version to apply to melee attacks (which carries a -20 penalty).

A rogue that instead invests in two-weapon fighting and maneuverability is a much bigger threat in a fight, and never has to use stealth.


Backpack wrote:


So to get hide in plain sight you have to already have max ranks in stealth at lv 5, and lets say your a half-elf and you take skill focus stealth, and it's a class skill, with what, a 20 dex? that's +19 without any items. So sure a wizard can cast invisibility, using up a spell slot, to be invisible against any creature with only regular sight. A shadow dancer can stealth against any creature with any sight infinite times for the cost of what, putting ranks into you best and most used skill? I mean that is like saying, yah sure bards are good, if you put ranks in diplomacy, bluff, and perform. Stealthing well is their schtick, if you are making sure it is high than you crippling yourself.
Also their are plenty of ways to get dim light. Sure if the outside is bright, than the shadow is probably normal. Then if it is normal a shadow is probably dim. Sure their are times that it won't work but that is like saying quivering palm isnt strong because some times it doesn't work.

This is a strawman, characters that focus everything on being good at something SHOULD be good at it. The wizard could likewise take skill focus, max ranks to stealth, etc, then still cast invisibility on top of that to end up with a net score of over +30 to stealth for those times when +15 isn't enough. "Power" levels do not define how rules function.


Isonaroc wrote:


For the rogue it's an Ex ability that requires them to be in their favored terrain. But, so long as they are in that terrain, they can do it.

rai that's how it's supposed to work, but the rogue doesn't have the rangers camouflage ability to give them cover/concealment and only has the unobserved clause taken out by HIPS.

Silver Crusade

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:


For the rogue it's an Ex ability that requires them to be in their favored terrain. But, so long as they are in that terrain, they can do it.

rai that's how it's supposed to work, but the rogue doesn't have the rangers camouflage ability to give them cover/concealment and only has the unobserved clause taken out by HIPS.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) wrote:
she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.

Read: you don't need cover/concealment, because those function to keep you from being observed. They are unnecessary to HIPS.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Isonaroc wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:


For the rogue it's an Ex ability that requires them to be in their favored terrain. But, so long as they are in that terrain, they can do it.

rai that's how it's supposed to work, but the rogue doesn't have the rangers camouflage ability to give them cover/concealment and only has the unobserved clause taken out by HIPS.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) wrote:
she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
Read: you don't need cover/concealment, because those function to keep you from being observed. They are unnecessary to HIPS.

It's unclear. Without HiPS, you can't use stealth when being observed even if you have cover/concealment. The rogue version lacks the language in the Shadowdancer's that explicitly allows you to hide without c/c - "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind."

The Ranger already has an ability to always find c/c in his favored terrain, so he can be assumed to have it.

It may be that the intent for the Rogue was just to remove the "can't use stealth while observed" requirement, but still make her find cover or concealment.


Backpack wrote:
To be honest, as long as your within 10ft you can literally hide from anything by RAW.

Well, as long as you’re within 10’ of shadow you can “attempt a Stealth check.” All HiPS does is provide a new mechanic for making Stealth checks in situations you normally wouldn’t be able to. Stealth is still countered by Perception as well as a host of other things.

Backpack wrote:
So you make some kind of box, see Schrödinger's Candle above, carry it in your bag and be undetectable at all times. That is so clearly not the intent, and this is why I think that this needs a FAQ.

I don’t really think the designers will or even should provide errata just to prevent immature abuses of RAW like what you’re talking about. Instead, GMs should spend some time/effort doing their best to understand both RAW and RAI and apply some PC centric logic.

Backpack wrote:
The rest of this was my beliefs on how a believe it should work.

I believe HiPS should work in Darkness as well as Dim Light. I think it’s stupid to have an ability that only works in 1 out of 4 light levels in the game. That is how I run it in my games, but I do so fully aware that by RAW it is wrong. It’s fine if you as a GM decide with your players to run things a certain way at your table. But it’s also important to realize what the rules say and what they are silent on. The rules say what HiPS does, they are silent on how exactly the ability does it; beyond “it’s magical in nature” as a supernatural ability.

Backpack wrote:
This is why I wasn't citing rules, because there are none. It has the feat text and that's it.

There are mechanics in the text. They describe what HiPS does:

Stealth normally requires two things to function:
1. Concealment or Cover
2. To not be observed

HiPS removes those requirements and replaces them both with:
1. Be within 10’ of shadow

If you do not qualify for use of HiPS then you are back to using basic Stealth and require two things again. The only thing missing is the HOW. But the thing is, you don’t need it, the mechanics are all you really need to make the game function. The HOW is entirely fluff and can be explained any way you like as long as it works with the mechanics.

Backpack wrote:
Now does hide in plain sight move you into the box, do you get transported, does that provoke?

No. HiPS is not a teleportation power.

Backpack wrote:
does it just magically help you hide? Do you need a whole 5ft cube?

Yes, this is why it doesn’t work in an Anti-Magic Field or Dead Magic Zones.

Backpack wrote:
what if there is one in. of dim light.

By strict RAW you could use that to trigger HiPS. Is that the intent? Probably not, in fact I think I have a favorited statement from one of the designers that says they would probably not allow it unless it was at least a 5’ square of dim light. That said, it’s up to the GM to decide whether a tiny shadow is enough to trigger that magical connection to the plane of shadow or whether that falls under immature abuse of the system. This also might be dictated by the setting/feel you and your players want in the campaign. Maybe 1” of shadow isn’t enough in a low magic campaign but perhaps if you are running a very high magic campaign it would be plenty to generate that magical connection.

Backpack wrote:
Either this needs specifically laid out, or it falls straight into GM discretion, which I hate, because I don't like to be the bad guy who says "sorry that's not how I think it should work and therefore it doesn't.

You realize, if the design team took the time and word space necessary to specifically spell out every single issue that people argued over, or spelled out every single rule for every possible scenario PF would turn into just reading about playing a game… rather than actually playing the game. Plus the multiple volumes necessary would be far larger than the CRB. GMing requires us to fill in those gaps; which isn’t easy.

Backpack wrote:
" I don't want to play the villian who says, because this ability could be used ridiculously and is left so vague…

It’s part of your job as the GM to do your best to understand how things are supposed to work (RAW/RAI) and rule as closely to that as you can. At the same time you have to ensure the integrity and continuity of your game world and squash those stupid and immature abuses you’re talking about.

Backpack wrote:
Now if I played with one of you the ruling you decide upon would be surely different.

Probably. What’s wrong with that? The objective of the game is to have a cooperative, fun experience with friends. What difference does it make if I do that a bit differently at my table than you do at yours? And, given human nature, I don’t think it’s even possible to unify gameplay at every table unless you’re playing in an electrically programmed game. The government / military is a great example. There are volumes and volumes of regulations and code but every office does certain things just a little bit differently.

To an extent these areas where rules are silent is intentional. It allows for the game to evolve as necessary to fit the story/campaign.

Backpack wrote:
It is my "opinion" that super mega invisibility is way to broken for a lv 5 ability and if it were a capstone ability i would be much more likely to agree with the other ideas on how it works.

You mean, the same level Wizards are getting things like Fireball that can end a fight in one round or Greater Invisibility which makes the Shadowdancer wonder why he spent so many resources working toward HiPS? I think you are vastly overestimating Stealth. It’s very useful but also highly situational and easily defeated by a multitude of tools and tactics, not to mention other abilities. Tremor Sense, Blind Sense, Blind Sight, and Scent all have varying degrees of adverse effect on the use of Stealth, with varying degrees of difficulty in circumventing those effects. There are also several spells that can severely hamper or thwart the use of Stealth. And in combat even a readied action is pretty devastating. It’s just a matter of getting familiar with those things and being reasonable about which NPCs and creatures would have access to those things.

Silver Crusade

thejeff wrote:
It's unclear. Without HiPS, you can't use stealth when being observed even if you have cover/concealment.
Stealth: Being Observed wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.

If you are being observed and you find c/c, you're no longer being observed and can use stealth. You can also do it following a distraction, but that is less germane to this topic.

thejeff wrote:

The rogue version lacks the language in the Shadowdancer's that explicitly allows you to hide without c/c - "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind."

The Ranger already has an ability to always find c/c in his favored terrain, so he can be assumed to have it.

It may be that the intent for the Rogue was just to remove the "can't use stealth while observed" requirement, but still make her find cover or concealment.

You don't need to find cover or concealment. The whole reason you have to find cover or concealment to hide is so that you can prevent them observing you. If you can hide while being observed, you don't need c/c.


bbangerter wrote:
And not all shadows would qualify as dim light. A shadow cast by a tree on a bright sunny summer day is not something I'd consider dim light. Dim light is the level of light at night during a full moon.

This is a good point. Dim light is a well-defined term in PF. It’s a level of darkness at which it’s so hard to see that it causes you to completely miss when you’re trying to hit something right in front of you 20% of the time.


Isonaroc wrote:
thejeff wrote:
It's unclear. Without HiPS, you can't use stealth when being observed even if you have cover/concealment.
Stealth: Being Observed wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth.

If you are being observed and you find c/c, you're no longer being observed and can use stealth. You can also do it following a distraction, but that is less germane to this topic.

thejeff wrote:

The rogue version lacks the language in the Shadowdancer's that explicitly allows you to hide without c/c - "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind."

The Ranger already has an ability to always find c/c in his favored terrain, so he can be assumed to have it.

It may be that the intent for the Rogue was just to remove the "can't use stealth while observed" requirement, but still make her find cover or concealment.

You don't need to find cover or concealment. The whole reason you have to find cover or concealment to hide is so that you can prevent them observing you. If you can hide while being observed, you don't need c/c.

Dim light provides concealment. If you're in dim light, you're not automatically unobserved - they may have previously beaten your stealth with their perception, you may have done something to draw attention to yourself.

In such cases, you may be in cover or concealment, but you are observed, thus you can't use stealth without normally. With the rogue HiPS you could, even if it doesn't allow you to do so without cover or concealment.

There's debate about that too, of course, like most things with stealth.


Shadowlord wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
And not all shadows would qualify as dim light. A shadow cast by a tree on a bright sunny summer day is not something I'd consider dim light. Dim light is the level of light at night during a full moon.

This is a good point. Dim light is a well-defined term in PF. It’s a level of darkness at which it’s so hard to see that it causes you to completely miss when you’re trying to hit something right in front of you 20% of the time.

This is the crux of my argument, and I am surprised that you wrote the incorrect rule so many times.

It is within 10' of "Dim Light".

I agree, you do not need concealment.

-----

But following the logic, not the flavor, just the rules logic:

Normal Stealth

A gives B. With B you can C. Remove A, and you cannot C.

HiPS

<10' from A you can C. Remove A and you cannot C.

A = Dim Light/B = Concealment/C = Stealth

-----

Under normal stealth, we all know that because the elf increases the radius of A, the rogue loses B and cannot C.

I posit that HiPS is no different. Because the elf increases the radius of A, the rouge loses <10' from A and cannot C.

Concealment has nothing to do with my position. It is that in stealth, the dim light is lost and you cannot stealth. In HiPS, you lose the dim light and still cannot stealth.

-----

I recognize the overwhelming "But Supernatural" and flavor arguments. I don't care. They have nothing to do with the rules.

I give more credence to the "base light" argument, but I still don't agree with it.

But YMMV.


Backpack wrote:
However the others still run into the issue of, do tremersense/true sight break them.

In my games, Yes. But that decision/ruling is based on my knowledge of D&D 3.5 where PF came from. HiPS allowed Hide checks which were countered by Spot checks. Move Silently was a separate skill countered by Listen. So it’s much clearer in 3.5 that HiPS is a visual only effect.

Backpack wrote:
Stealth says: If you are observed you must break observation. You break observation by using concealment or cover.

I can understand your confusion with RAW here. But I believe (my opinion) RAI is to follow the tradition of 3.5 in which HiPS was a visual thing.

Backpack wrote:
Oh your favorite terrain is large open fields and you were standing 5ft in front of a deity. So, your a stealth PC at level, say 15, your going to have what. 15+9+3+9+2=38ish stealth without me trying to hard, against a CR30/MR10 creature your going to be able to stealth 75% of the time.

Not sure where you’re getting all those +s to Stealth, but that looks like a significant portion of a character’s resources. Balance tends to win out. A character who is completely invested in Stealth completely breaks down when situations arise where Stealth isn’t an option or isn’t useful.

Also… If you’re allowing a little thing like Stealth to befuddle a deity in your game, IMO that’s a GM problem not a game mechanics problem. You are a GOD… Just mass teleport everyone, everything in the area to a new terrain… Or change the terrain instantly into a different one… or maybe cast a custom god version of Glitter Dust that covers a square mile of ground (you know custom spells are a perfectly reasonable and RAW thing in PF right?)… How about an AOE Suggestion spell to the Stealthy character who almost definitely has a garbage Will save…

Or hey, maybe in your campaign gods aren't all that powerful... maybe the Stealth guy can avoid detection by a god. After all Adam and Eve managed to hide from God right? But if that's the case it should be setting/campaign/story driven, not because you feel hamstringed by your players.

Backpack wrote:
That is overpowered, it just is. That is capstone level of good.

It’s really not.


Komoda wrote:


I posit that HiPS is no different. Because the elf increases the radius of A, the rouge loses <10' from A and cannot C.

Is the elf radiating bright or normal light?

Because Lowlight Vision doesn't change the actual light level. It only allows the elf to act "as if" it had a different light level, but no actual change happens.

Kind of like I can order sushi "as if" I had money in my checking account, but when the bill comes, I still can't pay. The sushi still arrives, but my card is denied.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Backpack wrote:
So to get hide in plain sight you have to already have max ranks in stealth at lv 5, and lets say your a half-elf and you take skill focus stealth, and it's a class skill, with what, a 20 dex? that's +19 without any items.

1. This can just as easily be done with Wisdom and Perception.

2. You seem to be ignoring that getting HiPS takes a tremendous portion of a level 5 character’s resources. It’s not just 5 skill points. It’s also all three of your three feats granted by character level. If you’re trying to achieve SD by level 5 you are pretty pigeon holed as a character. You have 1 thing that you do fairly well and it’s still highly situational.

Backpack wrote:
So sure a wizard can cast invisibility, using up a spell slot, to be invisible against any creature with only regular sight.

Actually wizards can become invisible starting at level 1, with the Vanish spell. And I am not sure why you are saying it’s only against regular sight. It works perfectly well against LLV and DV. It even provides effects against creatures with Scent, Tremor Sense, and Blind Sense.

Backpack wrote:
A shadow dancer can stealth against any creature with any sight infinite times for the cost of what, putting ranks into you best and most used skill?

And 100% of your level 5 feats.

Backpack wrote:
I mean that is like saying, yah sure bards are good, if you put ranks in diplomacy, bluff, and perform. Stealthing well is their schtick, if you are making sure it is high than you crippling yourself.

Not at all the same. A character who’s that invested in Stealth is ONLY invested in Stealth. If you know what you’re doing Stealth is actually pretty simple to defeat, even when modified by HiPS.

Backpack wrote:
Also their are plenty of ways to get dim light. Sure if the outside is bright, than the shadow is probably normal. Then if it is normal a shadow is probably dim. Sure their are times that it won't work but that is like saying quivering palm isnt strong because some times it doesn't work.

This is not an accurate picture of how light levels work in PF. Dim Light is defined as a darkness that is thick enough to cause you to miss a target standing right in front of you 20% of the time… when have you ever been standing outside during the day under cloud cover and seen a shadow on the ground that was SO DARK you wouldn’t be able to effectively see if you stepped into it….?

A tree casting a shadow in conditions of Normal Light does NOT constitute Dim Light. Not by any stretch of the imagination.


Irontruth wrote:
Either way, it's a move action. You either have to move, which triggers the opportunity to make a Stealth check, or you have to allow the sniping version to apply to melee attacks (which carries a -20 penalty).

This is not really the case. Sniping is the only thing specifically called out as using a Move Action. Otherwise it requires no action at all and is typically used as part of some other movement. “Movement,” is not the same as Move Action, or using your Move Action to move your base speed.

Irontruth wrote:
A rogue that instead invests in two-weapon fighting and maneuverability is a much bigger threat in a fight, and never has to use stealth.

True story. Especially if they have solid tactics with their party.


Yup, if you can move without a move action, you can get a stealth check as part of that. 95% of the time, that's going to involve a move action though. For example, if you look at Quickdraw and the +1 BAB draw weapon rule in combat, you see two references, one says "regular move" (combat chapter), the other says "movement" and both are referring to the same thing with different language. For drawing a weapon a 5 foot step does not qualify. I think a case could be made to try to allow a 5 foot step to qualify for Stealth, but compared to other rules it's also very reasonable to not allow that.

But I would agree, something like the Oracle's (Battle) Surprising Charge would also qualify as "movement" to trigger a stealth check. There are a few of those abilities out there. Does the Ninja have one? Typically those abilities are a limited number of times (times/day for the Oracle, would guess a Ninja ability would spend Ki if it exists).


Irontruth wrote:
They're both classes that look awesome at first glance, but then you realize there really isn't anything there. They're both flashy with that ability to hide, but once they're hidden they might as well just stay hidden.

Shadowstalker is something you dip into for 1-4 levels depending on what you want from it. Past that, stick to your base class.

Personally, I've only ever taken a two level dip for HIPS, darkvision, uncanny dodge and evasion.


thejeff wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:


For the rogue it's an Ex ability that requires them to be in their favored terrain. But, so long as they are in that terrain, they can do it.

rai that's how it's supposed to work, but the rogue doesn't have the rangers camouflage ability to give them cover/concealment and only has the unobserved clause taken out by HIPS.
Hide in Plain Sight (Ex) wrote:
she can use the Stealth skill to hide, even while being observed.
Read: you don't need cover/concealment, because those function to keep you from being observed. They are unnecessary to HIPS.

It's unclear. Without HiPS, you can't use stealth when being observed even if you have cover/concealment. The rogue version lacks the language in the Shadowdancer's that explicitly allows you to hide without c/c - "can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind."

The Ranger already has an ability to always find c/c in his favored terrain, so he can be assumed to have it.

It may be that the intent for the Rogue was just to remove the "can't use stealth while observed" requirement, but still make her find cover or concealment.

I had the exact same logic as BigNorseWolf in regards to the Hellcat Stealth feat, which has almost identical language to the Rogue HiPS talent. I thought they would still need to find Cover/Concealment. Then my logic world was shattered when the write of the feat answered my posts and said:

They work similarly. HS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but you have a penalty on the check. HIPS trumps the need for cover/concealment, but it requires a nearby shadow, and has no penalty.

That said, I am pretty sure Rogue HiPS works exactly the same. Allowing someone to hide even while being observed removes the need for Cover/Concealment all together. Shadowdancer HiPS just explains it in more detail.


Darkvision does not allow you to see through magical darkness. The idea behind HiPS is that the shadows are magically extending up to 10' away to wrap you up. I would say that this trumps Darkvision. Also, just because you have dark-vision doesn't mean that someone can't stealth past you. Ultimately HiPS is an ability that supplements your stealth abilities. I also feel as though an advanced class ability should not be trumped by an ability that can be obtained before level 1.


TrustNo1 wrote:
Darkvision does not allow you to see through magical darkness.

This portion of your comment is not true.

From the darkness spell.

Quote:


Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty.

It is true that normal darkvision cannot see through Deeper Darkness though.


Komoda wrote:
Shadowlord wrote:
bbangerter wrote:
And not all shadows would qualify as dim light. A shadow cast by a tree on a bright sunny summer day is not something I'd consider dim light. Dim light is the level of light at night during a full moon.

This is a good point. Dim light is a well-defined term in PF. It’s a level of darkness at which it’s so hard to see that it causes you to completely miss when you’re trying to hit something right in front of you 20% of the time.

This is the crux of my argument, and I am surprised that you wrote the incorrect rule so many times.

It is within 10' of "Dim Light".

I suppose I shouldn't be lazy with terminology. It's important to be specific. Yes, the rule in SD/Assassin HiPS is Dim Light. I use shadow because there was a statement from JJ or JB a few years back about them being interchangeable. They said that because of the Assassin language which was a copy/paste oversight from 3.5.

Komoda wrote:
I agree, you do not need concealment.

Cool, we'll move from there.

Komoda wrote:

But following the logic, not the flavor, just the rules logic:

Normal Stealth

A gives B. With B you can C. Remove A, and you cannot C.

HiPS

<10' from A you can C. Remove A and you cannot C.

A = Dim Light/B = Concealment/C = Stealth

So the question become, do LLV/DV actually remove "A" Dim Light?

Komoda wrote:
Under normal stealth, we all know that because the elf increases the radius of A, the rogue loses B and cannot C.

This is something I think we need to use very specific language with as well. Does LLV actually push back the physical radius of A? The applicable rules are:

PRD wrote:

In Additional Rules: Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.

In the Glossary:Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.

Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day.

These rules indicate to me that the physical radius of light and the edge of Dim Light have not moved. The Elf simply has eyes so sensitive to light that they are able to see further in the same conditions of light. It's very similar to real world Night Vision technology, it's still dark outside, but when you turn those on you can see perfectly. It has no physical effect on the light level.

Komoda wrote:

I posit that HiPS is no different. Because the elf increases the radius of A, the rouge loses <10' from A and cannot C.

Concealment has nothing to do with my position. It is that in stealth, the dim light is lost and you cannot stealth. In HiPS, you lose the dim light and still cannot stealth.

My position above has not changed. However, let's explore the implications of your point of view in reference to the bolded portion of the quote above. If your position is correct, and LLV actually has a physical effect on the light level, then outdoors on a moonlit night a Shadowdancer would be as useless as if he were in the bright light of the noon sun... This has effects that reach much further than not being able to use HiPS even if he is 100' or farther away from an elf. It means he can't use Shadow Jump either, because he's evidently not standing in physical Dim Light, he can't even use his capstone ability:

Shadowdancer wrote:
Shadow Master (Su): At 10th level, whenever a shadowdancer is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6 rounds.

So, if I am understanding your position correctly, the physical effects of LLV render a Shadowdancer almost completely useless.

Komoda wrote:
I recognize the overwhelming "But Supernatural" and flavor arguments. I don't care. They have nothing to do with the rules.

That's fine, the supernatural element is only one facet of my logic. I can just as easily use the wording of LLV and the Shadowdancer's abilities to convey my position. There is nothing in any of the LLV descriptions that indicate it has a physical effect on the light or pushes the edge of Dim Light back; they merely see clearly (no concealment) out to a greater distance under the same light levels. To assume anything other than that has far reaching and potentially game breaking effects, IMO.


Irontruth wrote:
Yup, if you can move without a move action, you can get a stealth check as part of that.

Agreed. And in out of combat situations I would allow Stealth checks even without leaving your square. For instance, if you are standing behind a desk and someone walks past a door. Do I really need you to move, or can you just crouch behind the desk and roll to see if they notice you?

Irontruth wrote:
For example, if you look at Quickdraw and the +1 BAB draw weapon rule in combat, you see two references, one says "regular move" (combat chapter), the other says "movement" and both are referring to the same thing with different language.

True.

Irontruth wrote:
For drawing a weapon a 5 foot step does not qualify.

True.

Irontruth wrote:
I think a case could be made to try to allow a 5 foot step to qualify for Stealth, but compared to other rules it's also very reasonable to not allow that.

I'd say a very strong argument that 5' step qualifies as a Movement, since it's specifically described as a Movement multiple times in the combat chapter:

PRD wrote:

She could instead limit her movement to a 5-foot step, as a free action, and not provoke any attacks of opportunity.

The only movement you can take during a full-round action is a 5-foot step before, during, or after the action.

The only movement you can take during a full attack is a 5-foot step. You may take the step before, after, or between your attacks.

You can move 5 feet in any round when you don't perform any other kind of movement.

I don't really see a good RAW argument against it.

Irontruth wrote:
But I would agree, something like the Oracle's (Battle) Surprising Charge would also qualify as "movement" to trigger a stealth check. There are a few of those abilities out there. Does the Ninja have one? Typically those abilities are a limited number of times (times/day for the Oracle, would guess a Ninja ability would spend Ki if it exists).

I don't know if the Ninja has an ability like that. I don't think they do.


I really only skimmed the first page, but I'm honestly floored this is even a debate. The type of vision hasn't effected stealth all the way back to Advanced D&D when Dwarves had infravision.


Jodokai wrote:
I really only skimmed the first page, but I'm honestly floored this is even a debate. The type of vision hasn't effected stealth all the way back to Advanced D&D when Dwarves had infravision.

It has affected stealth since 3.0, and still does.


Shadowlord wrote:
So, if I am understanding your position correctly, the physical effects of LLV render a Shadowdancer almost completely useless.

People often say that, but it depends. It changes the area around a torch that you would normally be able to use Hips in a ring from 15'-60' from a torch. When trying to sneak up on an elf, that ring moves to 30'-100' from the torch. This is a MUCH larger area. It just means you can't get as close to an elf carrying a torch as you can a human carrying a torch. And this is logical based on ALL of the stealth rules in the game.

But just like you can get 10' closer to a human, you can get 10' closer to an elf. Notice how that is the exact same benefit? And you're saying that you can get 60' closer to a dwarf. So the better the vision type, the more powerful HiPS is. Heck, you are saying you can walk right up to a Dark Elf in the underdark with almost impunity. And with the stealth blog, you can basically walk around completely hidden all the time from people that see in the dark "as if it were day".

And it is not "more valid" to just say HiPS renders LLV and Darkvision useless. Nothing in HiPS states anything of the sort. And there is NO justification for allowing HiPS to work in total darkness with no dim light at all. The only way to deal with a Shadowdancer using your interpretation is to turn out all of the lights. But your saying that wouldn't even work.

However, as I posted above and in the other thread, we can never get it right. Clearly Dim Light is a broken mechanic. As stated before, if you have 3 different types of vision on a game board, the 3 could see one square as 3 different light levels. For normal stealth, we know that can mean 3 different outcomes.

HiPS is a mechanic that can simply follow the rules for LLV, DV, and stealth as normal, plus allow more areas (but not all) to hide from each type of vision. It is easy to apply these rules (the mirror stealth) when using it.

But moving past HiPS to things like Shadow Jump, everything gets screwed up. The light levels in the game are not the measurable amounts of light in an area, they are the levels at which the viewer sees an area. The "base level" or "ambient light" as ruled in the blog about light and vision, don't even allow for mobile light sources such as torches. So going by "ambient light" that includes torches, would mean we now have two different definitions for what "ambient light" is.

So I guess we are left with defining "Dim Light" for these types of abilities as whatever is "Dim Light" to a human. It makes no sense, because we don't define it that way for stealth or for perception checks or for movement. For all of those, the light level is based off of the viewer. But somehow, people here think it is SO OBVIOUS that we should be determining "Dim Light" a different way. If true, then even a campaign of all dwarves has to keep track of normal vision rules.

Three different rules versions of Dim Light exist in the game:
1)Defined by viewer, as in how LLV "moves" the area.
2)Defined as static but seen through, as in how LLV sees on moonlit nights.
3)Defined as static, vision types don't matter, as shadow jump and shadow master.

And I am OK with whatever the designers come up with to solve this problem. But having 3 versions of what Dim Light is and how it reacts with LLV makes it impossible to really KNOW what the answer is.

Anything position for either side would just be an opinion.


Ignoring the effects on ShadowDancers for the moment, I see it this way: There's actually another hidden light level.
The area

The light level between 40' and 80' from a torch appears totally dark to normal humans, but dim to those with LLV. That's the hidden level, darker than dim light, but not as dark as normal darkness. Appears as Dim to those with LLV.

For Shadow Dancer, are you saying you treat Dim Light for Shadow Jump & Shadow Master as ignoring vision types and thus any Shadowdancer would be able to Shadow Jump between 20' & 40' from a torch?

If so, I'm not sure why HiPS couldn't work the same way.


thejeff wrote:

Ignoring the effects on ShadowDancers for the moment, I see it this way: There's actually another hidden light level.

The area

The light level between 40' and 80' from a torch appears totally dark to normal humans, but dim to those with LLV. That's the hidden level, darker than dim light, but not as dark as normal darkness. Appears as Dim to those with LLV.

For Shadow Dancer, are you saying you treat Dim Light for Shadow Jump & Shadow Master as ignoring vision types and thus any Shadowdancer would be able to Shadow Jump between 20' & 40' from a torch?

If so, I'm not sure why HiPS couldn't work the same way.

No, I am saying that you cannot apply the rules consistently and make any sense of it.

To apply HiPS like that, you have to ignore LLV & DV and the normal stealth rules.

To apply LLV & DV to Shadowjump and Shadowmaster, you break everything.

To rule one way or the other, you have to break/ignore a different rule somewhere else. I posit the rules governing Dim Light are just broken.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Or the dim light rules are as written and LLV/DV don't change light levels at all, only how they are perceived. Y'know, as a lot of folks have been saying.


Komoda wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Ignoring the effects on ShadowDancers for the moment, I see it this way: There's actually another hidden light level.

The area

The light level between 40' and 80' from a torch appears totally dark to normal humans, but dim to those with LLV. That's the hidden level, darker than dim light, but not as dark as normal darkness. Appears as Dim to those with LLV.

For Shadow Dancer, are you saying you treat Dim Light for Shadow Jump & Shadow Master as ignoring vision types and thus any Shadowdancer would be able to Shadow Jump between 20' & 40' from a torch?

If so, I'm not sure why HiPS couldn't work the same way.

No, I am saying that you cannot apply the rules consistently and make any sense of it.

To apply HiPS like that, you have to ignore LLV & DV and the normal stealth rules.

To apply LLV & DV to Shadowjump and Shadowmaster, you break everything.

To rule one way or the other, you have to break/ignore a different rule somewhere else. I posit the rules governing Dim Light are just broken.

While I'd say they're perfectly coherent* if you treat all the Shadowdancer references to shadow/Dim Light as refering to an absolute light level of Dim Light - the one that those without LLV call Dim Light, not that darker version that elves talk about. Shadowdancers have magical abilities, tied to the Shadow Plane and triggered by those conditions, regardless of how they or those around them perceive them.

Assume that and everything works. Assume anything else and it all falls apart.

*Well, as coherent as any of the rules touching stealth are. It's a whole big mess in many ways.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Komoda wrote:
thejeff wrote:

Ignoring the effects on ShadowDancers for the moment, I see it this way: There's actually another hidden light level.

The area

The light level between 40' and 80' from a torch appears totally dark to normal humans, but dim to those with LLV. That's the hidden level, darker than dim light, but not as dark as normal darkness. Appears as Dim to those with LLV.

For Shadow Dancer, are you saying you treat Dim Light for Shadow Jump & Shadow Master as ignoring vision types and thus any Shadowdancer would be able to Shadow Jump between 20' & 40' from a torch?

If so, I'm not sure why HiPS couldn't work the same way.

No, I am saying that you cannot apply the rules consistently and make any sense of it.

To apply HiPS like that, you have to ignore LLV & DV and the normal stealth rules.

To apply LLV & DV to Shadowjump and Shadowmaster, you break everything.

To rule one way or the other, you have to break/ignore a different rule somewhere else. I posit the rules governing Dim Light are just broken.

Again, your interpretation of the rules requires you to swap out words that don't match your interpretation. This is part of the reason why your interpretation doesn't work and results in broken rules.

LLV doesn't change the actual light level, it just allows those who have it to act as if the light level were different.


Isonaroc wrote:
Or the dim light rules are as written and LLV/DV don't change light levels at all, only how they are perceived. Y'know, as a lot of folks have been saying.

But all those people, you know, say they are perceived one way at one time and a different way at another time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Komoda wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:
Or the dim light rules are as written and LLV/DV don't change light levels at all, only how they are perceived. Y'know, as a lot of folks have been saying.
But all those people, you know, say they are perceived one way at one time and a different way at another time.

Perception is irrelevant.

Only the objective illumination level matters.


Komoda wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:
Or the dim light rules are as written and LLV/DV don't change light levels at all, only how they are perceived. Y'know, as a lot of folks have been saying.
But all those people, you know, say they are perceived one way at one time and a different way at another time.

I don't think so. We're saying HiPS works off actual light levels, not off anyone's perception of light levels.

As far as other use cases go, sure. An elf will perceive Dim Light as Normal and some Darkness as Dim Light. That's the whole point of Low Light Vision. But I don't think it messes with Shadowdancers.


Komoda wrote:
Isonaroc wrote:
Or the dim light rules are as written and LLV/DV don't change light levels at all, only how they are perceived. Y'know, as a lot of folks have been saying.
But all those people, you know, say they are perceived one way at one time and a different way at another time.

No.

A Torch (for example) always gives 20ft of Normal Light and 40ft of increased. No matter who is looking at it that is a constant fact.

So in a dark room you would get 20ft of Normal Light and 40ft of Dim Light from a torch. No matter who looks at it that is what the torch does it doesn't change based on who looks.

It's constantly doing that.

Hide in Plain Sight require you to be within 10ft of Dim Light.

So if a Shadowdancer is within 10ft of the Dim Light a torch gives off they can use Hide in Plain Sight.

Not 10ft within a perceived viewpoint of Dim Light...just within 10ft of Dim Light. Low-Light Vision and Darkvison DO NOT change the torch's actual light level.


Komoda wrote:


It has affected stealth since 3.0, and still does.

Cite the rule please.


The thing some of you are missing is that you use stealth while observed, but you still need to find cover before the end of your turn or your visible again. HIPS doesn't change that.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Jodokai wrote:
The thing some of you are missing is that you use stealth while observed, but you still need to find cover before the end of your turn or your visible again. HIPS doesn't change that.

No you can't. If you are observed you can't use Stealth. The only exception being a distraction (Bluff check) and still needing cover/concealment to stop being observed.

"If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth. Against most creatures, finding cover or concealment allows you to use Stealth. If your observers are momentarily distracted (such as by a Bluff check), you can attempt to use Stealth. While the others turn their attention from you, you can attempt a Stealth check if you can get to an unobserved place of some kind. This check, however, is made at a –10 penalty because you have to move fast."

"Hide in Plain Sight (Su): A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

And yes it does change that.

Silver Crusade

What a silly thread. It's actually baffling how a power such as Hide in Plain Sight has people claiming it does not, in fact, let you hide in plain sight, just because the observer's eyes are a bit different. It's as silly as the Adamantium Golems not being made of adamantium argument, or the dead character still able to act argument.


Komoda wrote:
People often say that, but it depends.

It doesn’t depend. LLV can’t physically change the light level for HiPS but not change it for other powers that rely on being in Dim Light. Do you think that LLV is mean to render a Shadowdancer unable to use HiPS, Shadow Jump, and Shadow Master? It’s all or none, they all function based on the presence of Dim Light. And as I showed, on a moon lit night someone with LLV can see as well as in daylight, which means there is no radius or limit.

Komoda wrote:
But just like you can get 10' closer to a human, you can get 10' closer to an elf. Notice how that is the exact same benefit? And you're saying that you can get 60' closer to a dwarf. So the better the vision type, the more powerful HiPS is. Heck, you are saying you can walk right up to a Dark Elf in the underdark with almost impunity. And with the stealth blog, you can basically walk around completely hidden all the time from people that see in the dark "as if it were day".

What I am saying is: The use of HiPS to hide even while being observed and without cover/concealment is not hindered by DV or LLV. This is because neither DV nor LLV have any physical effect on the presence of Dim Light. A torch or a Daylight spell have a physical effect on Dim Light, they physically push back the shadows with light. DV doesn’t push back shadows, it only allows a creature to see clearly through them. LLV doesn’t push back shadows, it only allows a creature to see clearly through them. And what I am saying is actually supported by the RAW descriptions of how DV and LLV function in their specific text descriptions.

Komoda wrote:
And it is not "more valid" to just say HiPS renders LLV and Darkvision useless. Nothing in HiPS states anything of the sort. And there is NO justification for allowing HiPS to work in total darkness with no dim light at all. The only way to deal with a Shadowdancer using your interpretation is to turn out all of the lights. But your saying that wouldn't even work.

I'm not sure how I could have been more clear about defining that facet of my games as "my own opinion" and a house-rule and not RAW. I run my home games that way. It’s also how my GMs have run their home games. I am aware that Shadowdancer and Assassin versions of HiPS need Dim Light specifically by RAW.

There are numerous ways to deal with basic Stealth. There are also numerous ways to deal with HiPS, even in my home games. I assure you it works quite well. And believe it or not, my players with very little game experience still managed to easily dispatch an enemy NPC using HiPS.

Komoda wrote:
However, as I posted above and in the other thread, we can never get it right. Clearly Dim Light is a broken mechanic. As stated before, if you have 3 different types of vision on a game board, the 3 could see one square as 3 different light levels. For normal stealth, we know that can mean 3 different outcomes.

The only reason you think it’s a broken mechanic is you think the light level physically changes when people with different eyes look at it. Light and dark are physical things that have a certain level, that is an objective truth. Your particular ability to see better or worse in that light level is subjective and has absolutely no effect on the actual light or darkness in an area. No more so than a human standing in the dark then putting on Night Vision Goggles, the darkness is still very much present, you can just see better in it with different sight capabilities.

HiPS functions in the presence of DV and LLV because it functions based on the presence of physical shadow (Dim Light). Your sight has nothing to do with that. It doesn’t physically push back shadows. HiPS does not function more than 10’ into the radius of Normal Light around a torch because fire (light) has a physical effect on shadow (dim light). The Dim Light is physically washed back by light. I am not certain how you could think DV and LLV have a physical effect on light level, by RAW or otherwise, eyes don’t emit light.

Komoda wrote:
HiPS is a mechanic that can simply follow the rules for LLV, DV, and stealth as normal, plus allow more areas (but not all) to hide from each type of vision. It is easy to apply these rules (the mirror stealth) when using it.

HiPS does follow the rules for Stealth, LLV, and DV. You are trying to make LLV and DV do something they don’t do in RAW or anywhere else. They don’t have a physical effect on the light level. They don’t push back shadows, there is nothing in the rules that even imply that.

Komoda wrote:
But moving past HiPS to things like Shadow Jump, everything gets screwed up.

It shouldn’t; all three abilities I named above need EXACTLY the same condition to function: The presence of Dim Light. If things in your interpretation get screwed up then perhaps you should reevaluate your interpretation. Because they work just fine the way I explained it above.

Komoda wrote:
The light levels in the game are not the measurable amounts of light in an area, they are the levels at which the viewer sees an area.

I’m not even sure where to start here. The light level is a set thing; there are other things that modify that level on a case by case, usually limited basis. For instance it could be a sunny day (Bright Light) and I could cast Deeper Darkness making a small area of (Dim Light). The light level outside is still Bright Light, there’s just an area of Dim Light.

Also, a human and an elf could be walking out on a moon lit night. The night is relatively dark (Dim Light). The human has a very hard time seeing, but the elf sees everything AS IF they were in Normal Light. There’s no physical change to the light level, it’s still dark outside, it’s still Dim Light. The elf just sees better.

The "base level" or "ambient light" as ruled in the blog about light and vision, don't even allow for mobile light sources such as torches. So going by "ambient light" that includes torches, would mean we now have two different definitions for what "ambient light" is.

I don’t know what blog you keep referring to.

No, there’s ONE ambient light level, and there are things that modify that level, usually on a limited basis or in a limited area.

That same human and elf above can walk into a cave and the ambient light level will be Darkness. In that case they are both blind. Now the human can pull out a torch and now there’s 20’ of Normal Light and an additional 20’ of Dim Light. This doesn’t change the light level of the cave itself, it just changes the immediate light level in a 40’ radius around the torch.

Additionally, the Elf in this scenario will be able to see better in that light. They raise the “effective” radius of the light in relation to their own vision, but they do NOT raise the “actual” physical light level beyond what the torch is physically doing with fire. They can see as if the normal light extended to 40’ and the dim light to 80’ but that doesn’t actually change the effects of the torch. Therefore it doesn’t change where the dim light physically is.

Komoda wrote:
So I guess we are left with defining "Dim Light" for these types of abilities as whatever is "Dim Light" to a human. It makes no sense, because we don't define it that way for stealth or for perception checks or for movement. For all of those, the light level is based off of the viewer. But somehow, people here think it is SO OBVIOUS that we should be determining "Dim Light" a different way. If true, then even a campaign of all dwarves has to keep track of normal vision rules.

The only thing that’s based off the viewer is whether or not someone has concealment against their vision. Their eyes don’t change the physical light level in the room.

Komoda wrote:

Three different rules versions of Dim Light exist in the game:

1)Defined by viewer, as in how LLV "moves" the area.

LLV doesn’t “move” anything. The light from the torch stays exactly the same, someone with LLV can just see clearly to a further distance using the same light.

Komoda wrote:
2)Defined as static but seen through, as in how LLV sees on moonlit nights.

The light is always static. They just see better in that light than others do. It doesn’t change the light level at all.

Komoda wrote:
3)Defined as static, vision types don't matter, as shadow jump and shadow master.

Please provide rules and your logic path based on that RAW to support there being three different versions of the light rules.

Komoda wrote:
And I am OK with whatever the designers come up with to solve this problem. But having 3 versions of what Dim Light is and how it reacts with LLV makes it impossible to really KNOW what the answer is.

Really? Because there’s at least one member of the PF team who said he would allow HiPS against things like LLV and DV. It was a statement by JJ.

Komoda wrote:
Anything position for either side would just be an opinion.

I backed my opinion with rules quotes from the PRD. You did not. Nor did you directly refute any of the statements I made. The only thing you focused in on was:

I wrote:
So, if I am understanding your position correctly, the physical effects of LLV render a Shadowdancer almost completely useless.

You didn’t actually quote any rules to refute anything I said. In fact your opinion seems based on a misquote of rules where you’re saying that LLV moves the light level. It does not, it allows someone to see “as if” and it adjusts the “effective” light level. That’s not the same thing as a torch which actually adjusts the light level in a limited area.

...

It’s similar to how Shadow Jump functions “as if” by means of a Dimension Door spell. That doesn’t mean the Shadowdancer is casting Dimension Door, which is why they don’t qualify for the Dimensional Dervish feats on their own without other intervention.


Jodokai wrote:
Komoda wrote:


It has affected stealth since 3.0, and still does.
Cite the rule please.

You're kidding, right?

Normal stealth requires 1 of many things to make happen. One of those things is concealment.

Dim Light gives concealment.

25' from a torch is Dim Light to a human.
25' from a torch is Normal Light to an elf.
25' from a torch is Black & White vision to a Dwarf, that is within 60' of that square.

You cannot stealth from an elf or dwarf within 25' of that square.

While some of the terms have changed, it has basically been this way for the past 15+ years.


Komoda wrote:
Jodokai wrote:
Komoda wrote:


It has affected stealth since 3.0, and still does.
Cite the rule please.

You're kidding, right?

Normal stealth requires 1 of many things to make happen. One of those things is concealment.

Dim Light gives concealment.

25' from a torch is Dim Light to a human.
25' from a torch is Normal Light to an elf.
25' from a torch is Black & White vision to a Dwarf, that is within 60' of that square.

You cannot stealth from an elf or dwarf within 25' of that square.

While some of the terms have changed, it has basically been this way for the past 15+ years.

The rule you are citing is that if you don't have cover or concealment you can't use stealth. HIPS says you can use stealth even if you are observed. The rules you're citing don't match your conclusion.

201 to 250 of 338 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Rules Questions / Hide in Plain Sight All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.