Hide in Plain Sight


Rules Questions

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The Concordance

You can hide without cover/concealment as long as the squares you are stealthing in are within 10' of an area of dim light.

The Concordance

Correct.


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I would love for this to be answered in the FAQ section or in a blog post. It seems to have a lot of entries on the message board. I have a PFS shadow dancer and it makes hide in plain sight (HIPS) seem pretty useless when going against orcs, goblins, kobolds, or drow. The Society GM wants an official response before he will concede that darkvision does not negate the HIPS supernatural ability (that or I would like an official ruling before I concede that it does negate it).


It makes sense that shadow/darkness based HIPS wouldn't work when you're being observed by darkvision (but make sure they're actually within 60' or whatever range). They don't suffer from the same visual difficultly/distraction that normally lets it work.


it would be weird if HIPS stoped working just because the person looking at you had darkvision were the same character probably wouldn't notice you standing 5 feet away from them if your HIPS was for forests and you were in a forest plus that would make the ability useless as like 80% of everything has some form of darkvision or even better sences


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QIbyItwI wrote:
I would love for this to be answered in the FAQ section or in a blog post. It seems to have a lot of entries on the message board. I have a PFS shadow dancer and it makes hide in plain sight (HIPS) seem pretty useless when going against orcs, goblins, kobolds, or drow. The Society GM wants an official response before he will concede that darkvision does not negate the HIPS supernatural ability (that or I would like an official ruling before I concede that it does negate it).

I fail to see how them having Darkvision affects it at all. The wording is such "A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

Bolding mine. Now, you just need to be within 10 ft of Dim Light. Your vision does not change Dim Light into normal light. It's just that you can see in Dim and Dark areas with Darkvision. The space is still Dim Light. You meet all requirements and can then skyrim crouch out of vision.


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Plausible Pseudonym wrote:
It makes sense that shadow/darkness based HIPS wouldn't work when you're being observed by darkvision (but make sure they're actually within 60' or whatever range). They don't suffer from the same visual difficultly/distraction that normally lets it work.

I'm pretty sure they clarified this the other way, that the idea of shadow exists from a human centric vision point of view (despite the fact that humans are the weird ones and everything on golarion sees in the dark)


Lady-J wrote:
it would be weird if HIPS stoped working just because the person looking at you had darkvision were the same character probably wouldn't notice you standing 5 feet away from them if your HIPS was for forests and you were in a forest plus that would make the ability useless as like 80% of everything has some form of darkvision or even better sences

So what you are saying is that it would be weird if darkvision helped you see through darkness?

oookkay...


dragonhunterq wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
it would be weird if HIPS stoped working just because the person looking at you had darkvision were the same character probably wouldn't notice you standing 5 feet away from them if your HIPS was for forests and you were in a forest plus that would make the ability useless as like 80% of everything has some form of darkvision or even better sences

So what you are saying is that it would be weird if darkvision helped you see through darkness?

oookkay...

no because hide in plain sight has nothing to do with darkness there for being able to see in the dark should not allow you to see the person using the ability


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dragonhunterq wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
it would be weird if HIPS stoped working just because the person looking at you had darkvision were the same character probably wouldn't notice you standing 5 feet away from them if your HIPS was for forests and you were in a forest plus that would make the ability useless as like 80% of everything has some form of darkvision or even better sences

So what you are saying is that it would be weird if darkvision helped you see through darkness?

oookkay...

Humans writing a book for humans forgot that humans are the weird ones when it comes to seeing in the dark, and wrote an ability with the assumption that it would do its job

option 1: it merely extends the range that you can use shadow, meaning.. you're hosed because everything sees in the dark anyway.

option 2: the shadow is a physically existing thing that the shadowdancer pulls around themselves to hide.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
Lady-J wrote:
it would be weird if HIPS stoped working just because the person looking at you had darkvision were the same character probably wouldn't notice you standing 5 feet away from them if your HIPS was for forests and you were in a forest plus that would make the ability useless as like 80% of everything has some form of darkvision or even better sences

So what you are saying is that it would be weird if darkvision helped you see through darkness?

oookkay...

Humans writing a book for humans forgot that humans are the weird ones when it comes to seeing in the dark, and wrote an ability with the assumption that it would do its job

option 1: it merely extends the range that you can use shadow, meaning.. you're hosed because everything sees in the dark anyway.

option 2: the shadow is a physically existing thing that the shadowdancer pulls around themselves to hide.

I'd say Option 2, since HiPS is a Supernatural ability.


Yeah, I always imagined it as actually hiding within the shadow physically.

And somehow darkvision doesn't mess with it.

This really only applies to the Shadow Dancer's and Assassin's version of HIPS anyways, the others don't mention shadows.


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TrinitysEnd wrote:
QIbyItwI wrote:
I would love for this to be answered in the FAQ section or in a blog post. It seems to have a lot of entries on the message board. I have a PFS shadow dancer and it makes hide in plain sight (HIPS) seem pretty useless when going against orcs, goblins, kobolds, or drow. The Society GM wants an official response before he will concede that darkvision does not negate the HIPS supernatural ability (that or I would like an official ruling before I concede that it does negate it).

I fail to see how them having Darkvision affects it at all. The wording is such "A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

Bolding mine. Now, you just need to be within 10 ft of Dim Light. Your vision does not change Dim Light into normal light. It's just that you can see in Dim and Dark areas with Darkvision. The space is still Dim Light. You meet all requirements and can then skyrim crouch out of vision.

This is incorrect. Dim Light is a condition based on the viewer's eye sight. It is not a condition based on the environment. Areas of Dim Light are not defined. Locations of light sources are.

The same single square can be different for a character with Darkvision, Low Light, or Normal.

Take a square 45' away from a torch. One of each character is standing at the torch.

Normal Vision can't see anything.
Low Light sees it as Dim Light.
Darkvision sees it normally.

And interestingly enough, if they all step back 20', there is no change for Normal Vision or Low Light, but the guy with Darkvision now can't see the square. So the light level of the square changed for one of them just because of position.

The square itself has no "standard" light level. It is only the light level as per the viewer.

Furthermore, supernatural does not mean superpowerful. The definitions of Extraordinary, Spell-like, and Supernatural are only categories of how special abilities interact with things like AoOs and Anti-Magic fields. Saying, "Because Supernatural" is just like saying, "Because Magic" and that doesn't work for this argument. The fact that HiPS does not work in an anti-magic field has no bearing on what really is Dim Light. Extraordinary abilities, like Low Light Vision, are superior to Supernatural abilities. They have the same properties, except that Extraordinary abilities ALSO work in areas of Anti-magic. So again,, "But Supernatural" has no bearing.

Another example is cover. You do not have cover from a massive tree due to being in a square next to said massive tree. You only have cover if that tree is between you and the viewer. It changes per viewer, and it changes if that viewer moves.

I understand that it is supremely complicated. Light and Terrain are probably the most complicated and most ignored parts of the game. But if you really start to use them, they totally change the combat around. And it is absolutely not fair to only take the very best parts of it, like HiPS and ignore the powerful sight abilities that some creatures have.

Yes, it is harder to sneak up on a dwarf than a human. So sad, too bad.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Komoda wrote:
Dim Light is a condition based on the viewer's eye sight. It is not a condition based on the environment.

It is every bit a condition based on the environment, much in the same way that a room filled with air or water is a condition of the environment.

The presence or absence of photons is an objective environmental condition, whether or not you can detect them.

What's more, creatures with darkvision can still detect the shadows/areas of dim illumination, they just have the ability to see through it as well.


Really? The amount of water and the density of the water do not change based on who perceives the water.

But with light, the light condition applied to the square ABSOLUTELY changes based on who is looking at that square.

Clearly they are different.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Komoda wrote:

Really? The amount of water and the density of the water do not change based on who perceives the water.

But with light, the light condition applied to the square ABSOLUTELY changes based on who is looking at that square.

Clearly they are different.

Neither does the level of photons in the area.

Imagine for a moment an incorporeal creature with nontraditional senses (such as life-sight rather than traditional sight). It cannot differentiate between air or water (or even matter) in the same way that physical creatures can, as it moves through both with equal ease. To it, moving through a room full of water would be just like moving through a room full of air. The fact that it cannot tell the difference does not mean that there is no water, or that the water (or lack there of) is not an inherent part of the environment.

A dwarf shdaowdancer is not prevented from using his hide in plain sight ability just because he can see through the nearby shadows/dim illumination.

Though I admit it's more debatable, I'd also argue that a dwarf can no more see someone using hide in plain sight than a human can.


Komoda wrote:
TrinitysEnd wrote:
QIbyItwI wrote:
I would love for this to be answered in the FAQ section or in a blog post. It seems to have a lot of entries on the message board. I have a PFS shadow dancer and it makes hide in plain sight (HIPS) seem pretty useless when going against orcs, goblins, kobolds, or drow. The Society GM wants an official response before he will concede that darkvision does not negate the HIPS supernatural ability (that or I would like an official ruling before I concede that it does negate it).

I fail to see how them having Darkvision affects it at all. The wording is such "A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

Bolding mine. Now, you just need to be within 10 ft of Dim Light. Your vision does not change Dim Light into normal light. It's just that you can see in Dim and Dark areas with Darkvision. The space is still Dim Light. You meet all requirements and can then skyrim crouch out of vision.

This is incorrect. Dim Light is a condition based on the viewer's eye sight. It is not a condition based on the environment. Areas of Dim Light are not defined. Locations of light sources are.

The same single square can be different for a character with Darkvision, Low Light, or Normal.

Take a square 45' away from a torch. One of each character is standing at the torch.

Normal Vision can't see anything.
Low Light sees it as Dim Light.
Darkvision sees it normally.

And interestingly enough, if they all step back 20', there is no change for Normal Vision or Low Light, but the guy with Darkvision now can't see the square. So the light level of the square changed for one of them just because of position.

The square itself has no "standard" light level. It is only the light level as per the viewer.

Furthermore,...

so with that logic your saying a shadow dancer who has dark vision wouldn't beable to use their HIPS ability because they wont beable to see any shadows because they have darkvision and this see past low light.....


I never said anything about the level of photons. Just the condition that the person perceiving it sees it sees.

Of course a dwarf's vision does not inhibit his ability to hide. On the other side, a human cannot hide 5' from a dwarf in a dark cave just because the human can't see.

But in all things vision and light, the ability to hide is based on how the person perceiving the square sees it, not how the person hiding in it sees it. Please show me any instance that states otherwise.

Again, take a square 45' away from a torch and a Human, a Elf, and a Dwarf are looking at it. Someone automatically can hide from the human, has a chance to hide from the elf and can't hide from the dwarf.

Why is HiPS different?

I give you that they can now hide from the human at 15' away from the torch rather than 25'. But they still can't hide from the elf or the dwarf that close to the torch. The elf and the dwarf don't lose their bonuses to their vision due to HiPS. And yes, there are areas that a dwarf can see as Dim Light. It just won't be from a torch that he is holding.

HiPS does one thing. It ADDS areas where someone can attempt to hide. It does not negate other types of vision.

The only way to adjudicate that HiPS works no matter what the vision is to completely ignore, for no reason, that there is more than than one type of vision. HiPS still has a bonus against characters with Low Light Vision and Darkvision, but it doesn't cancel them altogether.


Lady-J wrote:
Komoda wrote:
TrinitysEnd wrote:
QIbyItwI wrote:
I would love for this to be answered in the FAQ section or in a blog post. It seems to have a lot of entries on the message board. I have a PFS shadow dancer and it makes hide in plain sight (HIPS) seem pretty useless when going against orcs, goblins, kobolds, or drow. The Society GM wants an official response before he will concede that darkvision does not negate the HIPS supernatural ability (that or I would like an official ruling before I concede that it does negate it).

I fail to see how them having Darkvision affects it at all. The wording is such "A shadowdancer can use the Stealth skill even while being observed. As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind. She cannot, however, hide in her own shadow."

Bolding mine. Now, you just need to be within 10 ft of Dim Light. Your vision does not change Dim Light into normal light. It's just that you can see in Dim and Dark areas with Darkvision. The space is still Dim Light. You meet all requirements and can then skyrim crouch out of vision.

This is incorrect. Dim Light is a condition based on the viewer's eye sight. It is not a condition based on the environment. Areas of Dim Light are not defined. Locations of light sources are.

The same single square can be different for a character with Darkvision, Low Light, or Normal.

Take a square 45' away from a torch. One of each character is standing at the torch.

Normal Vision can't see anything.
Low Light sees it as Dim Light.
Darkvision sees it normally.

And interestingly enough, if they all step back 20', there is no change for Normal Vision or Low Light, but the guy with Darkvision now can't see the square. So the light level of the square changed for one of them just because of position.

The square itself has no "standard" light level. It is only the light level as per the

...

Why do people read my position this way? I have never stated anything of the sort.

It is kind of like invisible. Treat it as a vision type. If you are invisible you can hide from anyone that can't see invisible. The fact that you can see invisible has no bearing on whether or not you can hide.

But the fact that I can see invisible makes it impossible for you to hide from me using invisibility.


the only visions i would rule to beable to see some one useing HIPS would be true sight, blind sight, blind sense, life sense(if the person with HIPS is alive) and tremor sense (if the person with HIPS is moving on the ground)


Lady-J wrote:
the only visions i would rule to beable to see some one useing HIPS would be true sight, blind sight, blind sense, life sense(if the person with HIPS is alive) and tremor sense (if the person with HIPS is moving on the ground)

This is common, but ignores all the rules for stealth, vision, and light.

I have no idea why people think it fits within the rules.


Vision Examples

The link above shows the same exact area with the same exact light sources. One is seen through the eye of a human, the other through the eyes of an elf.

Would you allow someone to hide in the marked square from an elf without HiPs? If not, why would you then switch your ruling for HiPs?

You would have to look at the scene through the eyes of a human to have that marked square within 10' of Dim Light for an elf. I cannot imagine why you apply human vision to the elf because someone else has HiPS.

Dark Archive

OK so you have three people and a tree. We will call the hero A, bad guy B, and steve.

A
|♧|
.
.
B__S

Now Hero A is behind the tree, and have cover from both B and Steve and attempts to hide. Bad guy be can not see A and thus A is hidden from B. Steve the almighty and powerful however, the omniscient bastard, has all the kinds of sights and knows exactly where A is. Thus A is not hidden from steve. Now we replace the tree with darkness. B can not see A and thus he remains hidden. Steve how ever perceives no shadow and thus watches A pressed to the wall hiding in the presumed shadow. The previous cover example works perfectly as cover is defined by not by the one hiding but by the one percieving. You can hide in shadow from those who see shadow, You can hide around a corner from those who don't have tremorsense, you can "hide" from those whom you are hidden from.


Can you stealth behind a wall? If your observer has x-ray vision? Similar principle?


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going by that logic any one with darkvision will get easily murdered by shadows as they wont be able to see them


Lady-J wrote:
going by that logic any one with darkvision will get easily murdered by shadows as they wont be able to see them

I don't understand how your logic works, or what you are referring. A shadow would have a +8 stealth against a person with darkvision when they are within the range of said darkvision unless within bright light.

How does this hurt the character with darkvision?


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im saying with your logic of dark vision people not being able to see shadows(thus being able to see people use HIPS) that shadow creatures would be completly invisable to said creatures with darkvision as they are shadows and the person would not be able to see them period


Komoda wrote:


This is incorrect. Dim Light is a condition based on the viewer's eye sight.

This is provable wrong, unless you are positing that a character with darkvision 60' can ONLY see in black and white for the first 60' of their vision?

While a characters vision type does have an impact, the actual lighting level in an area also has an impact.


Lady-J wrote:
im saying with your logic of dark vision people not being able to see shadows(thus being able to see people use HIPS) that shadow creatures would be completly invisable to said creatures with darkvision as they are shadows and the person would not be able to see them period

That is a serious leap in logic. I am saying that Dim Light does not exist to that person, within 60' of a person with darkvision 60.


bbangerter wrote:
Komoda wrote:


This is incorrect. Dim Light is a condition based on the viewer's eye sight.

This is provable wrong, unless you are positing that a character with darkvision 60' can ONLY see in black and white for the first 60' of their vision?

While a characters vision type does have an impact, the actual lighting level in an area also has an impact.

Incorrect. Having Darkvision does not mean you lose the benefits of your normal vision. But light does not limit your Darkvision like it did in older D&D versions.

So a dwarf does not "suffer" from dim light within 60' of himself. He sees through it. That is true even if he is holding a torch. The first 20' would be normal light. The next 40' would be black & white vision of "normal light". After that would be based on other light sources.

How does that "prove" me wrong? As stated, and never denied, a single square can easily have a different lighting condition for a human, elf, and dwarf.


The point is it's not that a person with darkvision can't see shadow, it's that the shadow does not impair their vision in any way.


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Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

So we've established that the shadows are there whether or not you can see them? Good. Then I would like to posit that, if you are a shadow dancer within ten feet of said shadows, you could hide from a dwarf.

Why? Because hide in plain sight doesn't say you are using the shadows to hide. It merely says that you CAN hide under those conditions. After all, if you are not using the shadows to hide, but rather are relying on a supernatural class ability, then the argument of whether those with dark vision can see you becomes moot.


Expect table variation I guess, because I'll only allow a shadow dancer to hide from a dwarf if that shadow is one that doesn't allow darkvision to pass.


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dragonhunterq wrote:
The point is it's not that a person with darkvision can't see shadow, it's that the shadow does not impair their vision in any way.

But the "shadow" still exists. The book is written by humans for humans after all , and those strange hairless apes are so.. humancentric they think their vision corresponds to what is.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:
The point is it's not that a person with darkvision can't see shadow, it's that the shadow does not impair their vision in any way.
But the "shadow" still exists. The book is written by humans for humans after all , and those strange hairless apes are so.. humancentric they think their vision corresponds to what is.

I'm not sure I get what point you are making?

The shadow exists, sure, but it and it's effects can be ignored if you have darkvision.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

But hide in plain sight isn't something that dark vision ignores, even if it requires a shadow to use.


Komoda wrote:


Incorrect. Having Darkvision does not mean you lose the benefits of your normal vision. But light does not limit your Darkvision like it did in older D&D versions.

So a dwarf does not "suffer" from dim light within 60' of himself. He sees through it. That is true even if he is holding a torch. The first 20' would be normal light. The next 40' would be black & white vision of "normal light". After that would be based on other light sources.

How does that "prove" me wrong? As stated, and never denied, a single square can easily have a different lighting condition for a human, elf, and dwarf.

The point is that "Dim Light is a condition based on the viewer's eye sight." is not a true statement.

A person with darkvision can see color just fine in dim or better lighting conditions. In darkness they can only see in black and white. So the viewer's eye does have an effect on the outcome, but it is not the sole determining factor. Darkvision shows there is a difference, even though the viewer can still 'see' - how they see is dependent on outside factors other their their own eyesight. Dim lighting conditions work differently for some races than it does others, but the area is still dimly lit.

Fluff wise I could explain the HiPS ability working against darkvision because the character with HiPS knows how to position themselves so that that black and white vision allows them to blend with the blacks and whites of the background.

Rules wise, as RD correctly points out, is that HiPS makes no mention of not working against creatures with low light or darkvision, so it does. That does not jive with some peoples sense of realism, just like invisible characters providing flanking bonuses does not jive with some peoples sense of realism. But we aren't talking about realism, we are talking about what the rules actually state. You don't have to like the rule, you are free to change it for your games, but that is the rule as it currently stands, unless you can provide rules evidence to the contrary.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I explain it as the character having a connection to the plane of shadow that allows them to hide without cover, as long as they are close enough to a tie to that plane, i.e. an area of low light.

Dark Archive

Allright more points, magical shadow creature are magical, i.e. you can still see them as, one darkvision does not see into magical darkness and two, darkvision does not mean you can't "see" darkness. That is like saying tat if you hide behind a glass wall just because you can be seen doesn't mean you are not hidden.

This argument works best if you use other examples to explain as humans do not see in darkvision so it is hard for is to imagine it. Say you have the totally real feat hide in plain carpets. When within 10 ft of any plain carpet, it cannot be worth more than 1000gp or less that 10gp, you may attempt to hide in said carpet even if observed. Your carpet hiding skills are impressive and all who were just looking at you now are very confused saying, "he was just here, surely he must have fled as he could not be hiding under this plain carpet right here!" Alas the great steve has thwarted you plan as he has cast the spell "carpet translucetorium" and treats all carpets as if they were visually saran wrap, and thus clearly sees our hero. Surely steve could alert his allies in that there is still a creature under their carpet, and they may be aware now of his presence but he is still "hidden" from all but steve until he acts again.

The shadowdance ability is giving you concealment when you would not normally have it by, more or less, letting you treat dim light as if it were dark enough for you to hide in. Thus a creature with true sight, darkvision, tremor sense, or blindsight are not stopped by the ablility. Note that the hellcat stealth feat however is not darkness and is light and nothing has superbrightlight-vision.


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Pretty sure Shadowdancer also gives Darkvision. Gonna be pretty hard to use Hide in Plain Sight if Shadows don't exist for a person with Darkvision, huh?

Also, if Darkvision negates shadows and any effect that surrounds them, does that mean that spells like Shadow Evocation and Shadow Conjuration automatically fail on people who have Darkvision as well?


Backpack wrote:
The shadowdance ability is giving you concealment when you would not normally have it by, more or less, letting you treat dim light as if it were dark enough for you to hide in. Thus a creature with true sight, darkvision, tremor sense, or blindsight are not stopped by the ablility.

However, if your perspective changed whether or not there was shadows, a Shadowdancer literally could not use the ability. Furthermore, Darkvision states "Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all..." and never goes on to state "Treat all areas within 60 ft as Normal Light." It is still Dark in that location.

However, if I had a flashlight and pointed it to where the Shadowdancer was and it illuminated an area of 15ft around him, he then could not hide.

To follow up, if I close my eyes, everything becomes dark, I can now hide according to your theory. Since now everything is darkness according to my sight, and according to you, that is all that matters.


TrinitysEnd wrote:
Backpack wrote:
The shadowdance ability is giving you concealment when you would not normally have it by, more or less, letting you treat dim light as if it were dark enough for you to hide in. Thus a creature with true sight, darkvision, tremor sense, or blindsight are not stopped by the ablility.

However, if your perspective changed whether or not there was shadows, a Shadowdancer literally could not use the ability. Furthermore, Darkvision states "Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all..." and never goes on to state "Treat all areas within 60 ft as Normal Light." It is still Dark in that location.

However, if I had a flashlight and pointed it to where the Shadowdancer was and it illuminated an area of 15ft around him, he then could not hide.

To follow up, if I close my eyes, everything becomes dark, I can now hide according to your theory. Since now everything is darkness according to my sight, and according to you, that is all that matters.

Again, why do people claim the bold part? This is not anywhere near my position. My position is that if you close your eyes, everyone can hide from YOU because YOUR vision has changed. It does not mean you can hide from everyone. Since you can't see anything, everyone can hide from you.

Furthermore, with your super-strict reading of Darkvision, Dim Light would still be in effect causing a 20% miss chance. This is clearly not the intention of Darkvision.

bbangerter wrote:
Rules wise, as RD correctly points out, is that HiPS makes no mention of not working against creatures with low light or darkvision, so it does.

How is this any more valid than the reverse: HiPS makes no mention of ignoring the rules of Low Light Vision or Darkvision and therefore does not ignore those rules?

I get that you don't agree with my assessment. But it does not mean I am making things up.


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I see a disturbing lack of rules citations in this rules discussion.

If you guys want to argue minutiae, then you actually need to, y'know, argue the minutiae, not just talk past each other repeating your positions with no supporting evidence.


Snowblind wrote:

I see a disturbing lack of rules citations in this rules discussion.

The relevant rules have been cited. How they're interpreted gives you different answers.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:
Snowblind wrote:

I see a disturbing lack of rules citations in this rules discussion.

The relevant rules have been cited. How they're interpreted gives you different answers.

A couple of lines from Dark Vision and HiPS aren't going to cut it.

This discussion combines the lighting rules and the stealth rules, some of the most obscure and messed up rules in the entire game. This is the sort of rules debate where entire slabs of text from the CRB and Ultimate intrigue should be getting copy pasted into the thread, along with detailed explanations of how each poster is interpreting them. That isn't what is happening.


Do you think it would actually matter?


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Sarcasm Elemental wrote:
Do you think it would actually matter?

It could. For all we know, there could be some text in the UI or the lighting rules which specifically addresses HiPS, but AFAICT nobody has actually gone and checked. The odds of resolving this with all of the relevant rules available aren't great, but they are a hell of a lot better than the chances of resolving this without all of the relevant rules.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Komoda wrote:
How is this any more valid than the reverse: HiPS makes no mention of ignoring the rules of Low Light Vision or Darkvision and therefore does not ignore those rules?

Weren't you the one who asserted that darkvision defeats hide in plain sight? There has not yet been any proof of that provided by anyone. Generally the onus of providing proof is on the person making the claim.

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