"Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." Core Rulebook, page 564.
Low-light vision allows for a character to see without penalty in what would be dim-light to a character without low-light vision. You are correct that in light that is dim-light to them they still have the 20% miss chance. Still, the "double the radius of light effects" is a matter of point-source illumination and not ambient light illumination.
This first part is incorrect, or at the very least, incomplete.
If there was a candle in every square of a room, both the human and the elf observing it would see it is Dim Light. It is not the case that the elf can "see without penalty in what would be dim-light to a character without low-light vision". The elf does not "see through" or "ignore" or "negate" any Dim Light in this scenario.
Nothing written in HiPS says that it is based on "ambient" or "base" light levels as seen by a human. Can we agree on that? I mean I agree that nothing specifically says that Low Light Vision is still in effect.
But the question that I always pose is, why do you agree that the area of Dim Light moves in regards to basic stealth, but not HiPS? Concealment is not part of this, the fact that the area being Dim Light is what grants concealment, and the area that is Dim Light has moved is the important part. Example Set 1 below shows how my logic is consistent. Please agree it is consistent, even if you don't agree with the outcome.
All examples below assume the ability to hide only through Concealment granted by Dim Light or HiPS granted by Dim Light.
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Example Set 1: My position
Stealth
Requires concealment.
Dim Light gives concealment therefore, Dim Light is required.
25' from a torch, when a human is looking there, Dim Light exists, and you can hide.
25' from a torch, when an elf is looking there, Dim Light does not exist, and you cannot hide.
HiPS
Does not require concealment.
Requires Dim Light within 10' therefore, Dim Light within 10' is required.
25' from a torch, when a human is looking there, Dim Light exists, and you can hide.
25' from a torch, when an elf is looking there, Dim Light is 15' away, and you cannot hide.
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Example Set 2: The opposition.
Stealth
Requires concealment.
Dim Light gives concealment therefore, Dim Light is required.
25' from a torch, when a human is looking there, Dim Light exists, and you can hide.
25' from a torch, when an elf is looking there, Dim Light does not exist, and you cannot hide.
HiPS
Does not require concealment.
Requires Dim Light within 10'
25' from a torch, when a human is looking there, Dim Light exists, and you can hide.
25' from a torch, when an elf is looking there, Dim Light is 15' away but that doesn't matter as Low Light Vision is negated (or read as Only the base light level matters), and you can hide.
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Please at least realize that you must apply the logic differently, and change what you defining as Dim Light for the second set of examples to be true. Under Stealth you are asking, Is Dim Light Present. Under HiPS you are asking, Is the Ambient Level of Dim Light present (or within 10').
HiPS only changes 1 variable. It only makes it so you have to be within 10' of Dim Light. It doesn't also change "Dim Light" to "Ambient Dim Light as seen by a human." To apply "Dim Light" to Stealth and "Ambient Dim Light" to HiPS means you have to change 2 variables.
Darkness negates all no magical light sources and states that it does. If HiPS negated all forms of vision other than "normal" it should state as such.
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Characters with low-light vision (elves, gnomes, and half-elves) can see objects twice as far away as the given radius. Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.For the purposes or resolving that creatures vision, the effective radius of a light source is increased.
1. Effective is not equal to actual. The light levels are not altered beyond their normal radius for any purpose other than resolving that creatures perception.
2. HIPS is not checking the perception of observers. HIPS is checking the actual lighting levels for the existence of dim light.
3. HIPS does not require concealment. It does not matter if the effective (or actual) light level is bright, normal, magical darkness, etc. It cares that there is an area within 10' that contains dim light.
It's not that I don't understand the rules you are quoting. It is that they are irrelevant. HIPS cares nothing for the observers ability to see in darkness, it cares only that darkness (dim light) exists.
In the case of low light vision, the presence of an elf does not extent the area illuminated by a light source. Low light vision extents the distance by which the elf (and only the elf) benefits from existing illumination.
Dim Light only exists where the observer feels it exists, in my opinion. This is supported (not proven) by how Stealth works differently when a human or an elf is the observer. Please see the maps and graphics above that illustrate it. To sum it up, why does stealth rely upon the observer's point of view for light levels, but HiPS relies upon the "base" level? At some point you have got to agree that this is your position.
At some point you have got to realize that, like BigNorseWolf stated, you cannot prove it. I admit that I cannot prove my position.
"Low light vision extents the distance by which the elf
You're going in circles. The below is only relevant to this discussion. Only Dim Light, Concealment, Normal Vision, and Low Light Vision are assumed.
Using Stealth:
Without Dim Light, there is no concealment.
If there is concealment, there is Dim Light
If within Dim Light, Stealth is possible.
If Stealth is possible, you must be in Dim Light.
25' from a torch, a human sees Dim Light, so you can hide.
25' from a torch, an elf sees Normal Light. Dim Light is not present. You cannot hide. You do not have concealment. You do not have concealment because you are not in Dim Light, as the elf perceives you.
Using HiPS:
Without being 10' within Dim Light, you are visible.
If within Dim Light, Stealth is possible.
If Stealth is possible, you must be within 10' of Dim Light.
25' from a torch, a human sees Dim Light, so you can hide.
25' from a torch, an elf sees Normal Light. Dim Light is not within 10'. You cannot hide. You cannot hide because you are not in Dim Light, as the elf perceives you.
See how I took out all mention of concealment and only changed Dim Light to Within 10' of Dim light?
Dim light is present.
Certain observers may react differently, but the light intensity (lumens) is not modified by the observer. The quantity of light in any given area is objective. How that light is applied to the individual observer is subjective.
The subjective experience of the observer does not affect the objective requirement that a specific illumination level must exist with the specified radius of the HIPS user.
Ok, I am going to try the invisibility analogy again. This time with quotes.
Invisible: Invisible creatures are visually undetectable. An invisible creature gains a +2 bonus on attack rolls against sighted opponents, and ignores its opponents' Dexterity bonuses to AC (if any). See Invisibility, under Special Abilities.
You can see any objects or beings that are invisible within your range of vision, as well as any that are ethereal, as if they were normally visible. Such creatures are visible to you as translucent shapes, allowing you easily to discern the difference between visible, invisible, and ethereal creatures.
OK, if you think that HiPS works on the "ambient" light level, you must agree that invisible creatures get a +2 bonus on attack (and the other benefits) against those that are under the effects of See Invisibility.
Nowhere in Invisibility does it state that Invisibility is "beaten" by See Invisibility. So, if we only go by "static" or "ambient" levels, than an invisible creature still gains its invisible bonuses. It doesn't matter that the person with See Invisibility can see "as if" they were visible, because they aren't REALLY visible. Since they aren't REALLY visible, they can still add the +2 Bonus to attack, and the other bonuses. The person with See Invisibility can only watch the Invisible person stab them, and maybe they could run from them. But they can't possibly negate the bonuses of the Invisible person, because again, it is only "as if" they are visible.
This follows my opposition's logic of HiPS.
If there is concealment, there is Dim LightNot always true. This means that the following conclusion does not actually follow your premises.
If Stealth is possible, you must be in Dim Light.
You have to be trolling now. If we are talking about football and I say "cleats have spikes" you wouldn't say, "not all cleats. French cleats used for hanging pictures on walls don't have spikes."
Stop picking little parts out of context.
From the same post
"All examples below assume the ability to hide only through Concealment granted by Dim Light or HiPS granted by Dim Light."
Dim light is present.
Certain observers may react differently, but the light intensity (lumens) is not modified by the observer. The quantity of light in any given area is objective. How that light is applied to the individual observer is subjective.
The subjective experience of the observer does not affect the objective requirement that a specific illumination level must exist with the specified radius of the HIPS user.
It does for stealth, why not of HiPS?
Again, take out concealment, and just worry about the Dim Light part.
Have you even read my "lumens" post?
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Dim light is present.
Certain observers may react differently, but the light intensity (lumens) is not modified by the observer. The quantity of light in any given area is objective. How that light is applied to the individual observer is subjective.
The subjective experience of the observer does not affect the objective requirement that a specific illumination level must exist with the specified radius of the HIPS user.
It does for stealth, why not of HiPS?
Again, take out concealment, and just worry about the Dim Light part.
Have you even read my "lumens" post?
With stealth concealment is required. If you are relying on dim light for concealment, it may not work on specific observers. (Concealment is subjective)
HIPS does not rely on concealment. HIPS relies on an object level of illumination.
This follows my oppositions logic of HiPS.No, it doesn't. Please stop misrepresenting other people.
How does it not?
"Effective Radius" doesn't count for HiPS. That is the entire premise.
Why does "As if visible" count for invisibility?
Both are clauses that state "like but not really", aren't they?
Dim light is present.
Certain observers may react differently, but the light intensity (lumens) is not modified by the observer. The quantity of light in any given area is objective. How that light is applied to the individual observer is subjective.
The subjective experience of the observer does not affect the objective requirement that a specific illumination level must exist with the specified radius of the HIPS user.
It does for stealth, why not of HiPS?
Again, take out concealment, and just worry about the Dim Light part.
Have you even read my "lumens" post?
With stealth concealment is required. If you are relying on dim light for concealment, it may not work on specific observers. (Concealment is subjective)
HIPS does not rely on concealment. HIPS relies on an object level of illumination.
How do they get concealment in all my examples?
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How do they get concealment in all my examples?Dim light is present.
Certain observers may react differently, but the light intensity (lumens) is not modified by the observer. The quantity of light in any given area is objective. How that light is applied to the individual observer is subjective.
The subjective experience of the observer does not affect the objective requirement that a specific illumination level must exist with the specified radius of the HIPS user.
It does for stealth, why not of HiPS?
Again, take out concealment, and just worry about the Dim Light part.
Have you even read my "lumens" post?
With stealth concealment is required. If you are relying on dim light for concealment, it may not work on specific observers. (Concealment is subjective)
HIPS does not rely on concealment. HIPS relies on an object level of illumination.
The only reason stealth works in dim light is because dim light grants 20% concealment.
Unless the observer has something that says otherwise.Concealment is subjective, a stealthed character may have it for some observers and not others.
Your examples all rely on observers treating existing light conditions in differing ways. Those observers do not alter existing light conditions.
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Because an invisible creature is no longer invisible to a creature with See Invisibility. There is no comparable condition for Hide in Plain Sight.How does it not?This follows my oppositions logic of HiPS.No, it doesn't. Please stop misrepresenting other people.
The area is no longer Dim Light to the elf is an exact comparison.
How do they get concealment in all my examples?Dim light is present.
Certain observers may react differently, but the light intensity (lumens) is not modified by the observer. The quantity of light in any given area is objective. How that light is applied to the individual observer is subjective.
The subjective experience of the observer does not affect the objective requirement that a specific illumination level must exist with the specified radius of the HIPS user.
It does for stealth, why not of HiPS?
Again, take out concealment, and just worry about the Dim Light part.
Have you even read my "lumens" post?
With stealth concealment is required. If you are relying on dim light for concealment, it may not work on specific observers. (Concealment is subjective)
HIPS does not rely on concealment. HIPS relies on an object level of illumination.
The only reason stealth works in dim light is because dim light grants 20% concealment.
Unless the observer has something that says otherwise.Concealment is subjective, a stealthed character may have it for some observers and not others.
Your examples all rely on observers treating existing light conditions in differing ways. Those observers do not alter existing light conditions.
Ok, you're getting closer. In all of my examples, it is Dim Light that gives concealment. And to an elf, the Dim Light is not 25' from a torch, hence no concealment.
And for HiPS, that Dim Light that wasn't there for a elf in regards to stealth, still isn't there for HiPS, in regards to the elf.
There is nothing in HiPS that changes the subjective nature of Dim Light.
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The area is no longer Dim Light to the elf is an exact comparison.
The elf seeing through the dim light does not directly counter the Hide in Plain Sight ability in the same way that See Invisibility directly counters Invisibility. They are not the same situation.
Here is a better comparison:
"Because an invisible creature is no longer invisible to a creature with See Invisibility."
Because a square 25' from a torch is no longer Dim Light to a creature with Low Light Vision.
This is an exact comparison.
The comparison is perfect. You are interpreting "as if" and "effectively" as completely different.
Variable 1, in both of the lines in the comparison are nouns.
Variable 2, in both of the lines in the comparison are the way things are seen.
Variable 3, in both of the lines in the comparison are types of sight.
It is an exact comparison.
You may apply the rules to both differently, but I think that is incorrect.
"Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." Core Rulebook, page 564.
Low-light vision allows for a character to see without penalty in what would be dim-light to a character without low-light vision. You are correct that in light that is dim-light to them they still have the 20% miss chance. Still, the "double the radius of light effects" is a matter of point-source illumination and not ambient light illumination.
This first part is incorrect, or at the very least, incomplete.
If there was a candle in every square of a room, both the human and the elf observing it would see it is Dim Light. It is not the case that the elf can "see without penalty in what would be dim-light to a character without low-light vision". The elf does not "see through" or "ignore" or "negate" any Dim Light in this scenario.
"Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day."
Reading requires normal light, bright light, or darkvision to achieve. A character with low-light vision has normal light in at least part of a square that contains a candle. As the smallest unit of space that's generally used is a five foot square, it seems very probable that one candle per five-foot square would, in fact, be sufficient for an elf to have normal light levels.
Using the light-rules interpretation you're going with, please explain how a character with low-light vision can clearly see. After all, everything outdoors is dim light without an additional light source and there are no areas of bright light to double the radius of.
Nothing written in HiPS says that it is based on "ambient" or "base" light levels as seen by a human. Can we agree on that? I mean I agree that nothing specifically says that Low Light Vision is still in effect.
Certainly; this completely reasonable and accurate.
But the question that I always pose is, why do you agree that the area of Dim Light moves in regards to basic stealth, but not HiPS?
I think that HiPS doesn't care about an observer's low-light vision (or darkvision, or scent, or blindsight...) because I'm interpreting "what the ability is doing" as something along the lines of "move partially into the Shadow Plane" and thus be rendered more difficult to notice. Still visible, audible, smellable, etc, but difficult enough that it's a straight stealth versus perception battle.
The dim-light within 10 feet is just a prerequisite for the magic (not spell, but it's still magic) to function and as such observers have absolutely nothing to do with it. It's about local luminosity (defined as "dim light" in the somewhat poorly-written vision rules).
"Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day." Core Rulebook, page 564.
Low-light vision allows for a character to see without penalty in what would be dim-light to a character without low-light vision. You are correct that in light that is dim-light to them they still have the 20% miss chance. Still, the "double the radius of light effects" is a matter of point-source illumination and not ambient light illumination.
This first part is incorrect, or at the very least, incomplete.
If there was a candle in every square of a room, both the human and the elf observing it would see it is Dim Light. It is not the case that the elf can "see without penalty in what would be dim-light to a character without low-light vision". The elf does not "see through" or "ignore" or "negate" any Dim Light in this scenario.
"Low-Light Vision
Characters with low-light vision have eyes that are so sensitive to light that they can see twice as far as normal in dim light. Low-light vision is color vision. A spellcaster with low-light vision can read a scroll as long as even the tiniest candle flame is next to him as a source of light.
Characters with low-light vision can see outdoors on a moonlit night as well as they can during the day."Reading requires normal light, bright light, or darkvision to achieve. A character with low-light vision has normal light in at least part of a square that contains a candle. As the smallest unit of space that's generally used is a five foot square, it seems very probable that one candle per five-foot square would, in fact, be sufficient for an elf to have normal light levels.
Using the light-rules interpretation you're going with, please explain how a character with low-light vision can clearly see. After all, everything outdoors is dim light without an additional light source and there are no areas of bright light to double the radius of....
Linea, Thank You. I am very content to debate with people that disagree with me when they put forth some effort to understand my view, even if they disagree with it. You have shown that you understand it perfectly.
I don't see anything that states that one has to have normal light, bright light, or darkvision to read a scroll. The closest thing I can find states that "Low Light Vision can read it with the smallest candle in that square." I don't know how to rule this. But as a candle only gives of dim light in a 5' square, it would only give off dim light in a 10' square for an elf.
I get what you are saying about how you envision HiPS. But please note that the fluff you mention is not in the description of the ability. It says that the Shadowdancer hides behind nothing, not that it hides behind shadow. The only mention of the word "shadow" is that the Shadowdancer cannot hide in their own. So, you are not just interpreting fluff as rules, you are making up the fluff too.
It seems like a lot of leaping of logic to get to your interpretation. You have to make up fluff. Apply the fluff as rules. Ignore Darkvision benefits. And apply human vision to an elf for it to work your way.
And I just realized, your interpretation comes back to hurt the Shadowdancer later.
At 10th level, whenever a shadowdancer is in an area of dim light, she gains DR 10/— and a +2 luck bonus on all saving throws. In addition, whenever she successfully scores a critical hit against a foe who is in an area of dim light, that foe is blinded for 1d6 rounds.
Using your interpretation, when attaking an elf, this would only take place 21'-40' from a torch. Using mine it would take place 41'-80' from a torch.
This ability is even harder to adjudicate. And upon looking even further, Dim Light is broken everywhere. Half of the entries in the CRB act as if it is static. Ring of Shooting Stars, Shadow Call, Shadow Jump, Shadow Master, HiPS, and Shadow Walk all seem to act as if it is static.
But other entries act as if it is variable. Low Light Vision, Mundane Light Sources, Darkness Spell, Sunrods, Light Spell, Stealth, and the Daylight Spell all treat it as a variable area defined by the viewer.
And than further, the CRB breaks all the rules by treating some areas of Dim Light, such as outside on a moonlit night, as normal light for creatures with Low Light Vision. Nothing under Vision and Light (p. 172-173) mentions that, but if you dig deep enough, it is on page 564. That is the appendix.
No wonder we can't agree, the damn book has three different versions of how Dim Light interacts with things. There is no way we could prove any of them.
At this point, I give up completely on trying to say which is right. But the below is interesting.
Abilities, skills, and spells that work in Dim Light determine that condition how? I see four possible ways.
1) Prevailing light as seen by the target/observer or,
2) Prevailing light as seen by the bearer or,
3) Ambient, natural sources only, light levels or,
4) Prevailing light level of a human regardless of anyone's vision.
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1) I would have said HiPs works this way. I still say Stealth works this way.
2) I would have said the defensive parts of Shadow Master work this way.
3) I would have never guessed anything worked this way.
4) I would have never guessed anything worked this way.
There are abilities that care about the objective light level. One example wouldbe the mesmerists masterful trick Shadow Blend.
The mesmerist can trigger this trick whenever the subject attempts a Stealth check while in an area of dim or darker light . The subject gains total concealment from all enemies (50% miss chance) as long as it remains within areas of dim or darker light . Against creatures with darkvision , the subject gains concealment (20% miss chance) rather than total concealment . Once triggered, this effect lasts for 1 round per mesmerist level or until the subject enters an area of normal or brighter light.
The last sentence of this ability wouldn't make sense if there was no objective definition of "normal or brighter" light.
In our group we came to the conclusion that HIPS should work similar and merely uses the area of dim light as some kind of battery to fuel the ability. Using this interpretation you do not actually hide in it and the perception of bystanders (or even your own) does not matter, but you would need line of effect to the area of dim light of course.
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In our group we came to the conclusion that HIPS should work similar and merely uses the area of dim light as some kind of battery to fuel the ability. Using this interpretation you do not actually hide in it and the perception of bystanders (or even your own) does not matter, but you would need line of effect to the area of dim light of course.
Granted, it's your house rules, so call it however you want, but nothing in the rules for HIPS requires line of effect, it's simple proximity.
......Did you look at the map? Do you agree with the map?
Shadows don't matter. Game rules do. Read the Shadowdancer HiPS again. The only time Shadow is mentioned is the very last word. Nothing about how the game mechanic works has anything to do with shadows. Take the word "Shadow" out of the discussion because that word has no meaning in relation to the game mechanic. It is all about Dim Light.
If an elf attacks someone in the square marked by the black dot on my map, does that elf suffer a 20% miss chance due to the target being in Dim Light? No. Because to the elf, he is not in Dim Light. The target can not hide from the elf there, because he is not in Dim Light.
The rule is not, "elves ignore dim light."
The rule is not, "elves can see in dim light."
The rule is not, "elves ignore concealment created by dim light."The rule flatly reads, "Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters."
I think all of us agree with this so far. (If not, we are never going to even understand each other's position.)
So, if none of those things work because he is not in Dim Light, then he is still not in Dim Light (in relation to the elf) for HiPS.
I get that you don't agree, "Because HiPS", but nothing supports this.
And finally, does See Invisibility make a character no longer invisible? Of course not. But you still can't hide from the wizard with See Invisibility, even if you are still invisible. Again, the entire stealth ruleset is about the interaction between the viewer and the target, it is never about just one's abilities.
Every single form of hiding is based on the viewer's ability to see. HiPS doesn't change this, it just makes it harder to see them.
Does LLV say double the ACTUAL radius of light? Or double the EFFECTIVE radius of light?
I agree with you that the elf sees the space as normal light.
Do you agree that the dim
No, effective does not mean actual. They are two different words that mean different things. You don't get to swap words just because they are inconvenient for you.
The space is Dim Light, but the elf treats it like Normal light. Therefore, HiPS works.
HiPS doesn't care about observers (other than the opposed check), so check for Dim Light as if there were no creatures present. That is all that is required.
Unless you can provide text from HiPS that references observers/creatures present.
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The actual light level has nothing to do with an observer.
A torch gives off 20ft of Normal Light and 40ft of increased light; so assuming a dark room you have 20ft of Normal Light and 40ft of Dim Light.
That's the Light level in the room. That doesn't change based on who is observing it. It is constant.
A creature with Low-Light Vision:
Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.
So even with a creature with Low-Light Vision looking at a Torch, the actual Light Level is still 20ft Normal and 40ft Dim Light. Which is then modified for an observer with Low-Light Vision.
The Torch doesn't suddenly provide more Light than it normally does just because a creature with Low-Light Vision is looking at it.
The area is no longer Dim Light to the elf is an exact comparison.Because an invisible creature is no longer invisible to a creature with See Invisibility. There is no comparable condition for Hide in Plain Sight.How does it not?This follows my oppositions logic of HiPS.No, it doesn't. Please stop misrepresenting other people.
Emphasis mine.
The change in light level is subjective, applying only to the elf. The light level in the area has not changed, only the observers perception of the light level.
For normal stealth, this would leave the hiding individual without concealment, invalidating his stealth for the purposes of only the elf.
For HIPS, concealment was never a requirement, only dim light. Lighting conditions are objective and measurable. The illumination of the area does not change based on the observer. The conditions for HIPS remain. Stealth continues to function.
Your argument is effectively: because I am an elf the illumination level is changed. The area is now more brightly lit. This is false, if the illumination level were increased (an objective change), everyone present would benefit from the additional illumination.
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BiaJ has it right.
The actual light level has nothing to do with an observer.
A torch gives off 20ft of Normal Light and 40ft of increased light; so assuming a dark room you have 20ft of Normal Light and 40ft of Dim Light.
That's the Light level in the room. That doesn't change based on who is observing it. It is constant.
A creature with Low-Light Vision:
Double the effective radius of bright light, normal light, and dim light for such characters.So even with a creature with Low-Light Vision looking at a Torch, the actual Light Level is still 20ft Normal and 40ft Dim Light. Which is then modified for an observer with Low-Light Vision.
The Torch doesn't suddenly provide more Light than it normally does just because a creature with Low-Light Vision is looking at it.
"As If" = "Effective" right? As in, not really, but almost.
"As If" = "Effective" right? As in, not really, but almost.
I'm not really sure what your referencing...
All I'm saying is that the Torch always emits 20ft Normal and 40ft of increased light. It doesn't matter who is looking at it.
Hell to even figure out how Low-Light Vision works you have to reference the actual Light Level (the torch; which is a constant) in order to get the effective Light Level for an observer.
It never changes what the Torch is giving off. So it would have no effect on if a Shadowdancer can use Hide in Plain Sight.
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If I behave "as if" this thread isn't here, does the thread cease to exist?
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I would love for this to be answered in the FAQ section or in a blog post. It seems to have a lot of entries on the message board. I have a PFS shadow dancer and it makes hide in plain sight (HIPS) seem pretty useless when going against orcs, goblins, kobolds, or drow. The Society GM wants an official response before he will concede that darkvision does not negate the HIPS supernatural ability (that or I would like an official ruling before I concede that it does negate it).
There has been no "official" ruling. That said, this has been debated many times and there are a few things that might be helpful to bring to your GM.
1. PC centric logic. LLV/DV are naturally existing (Ex) abilities that can be had by any number of creatures from birth. HiPS is a (Su) ability that a character may spend half their career building up to. So then the GM needs to ask themselves, do I really think this mid-high level supernatural ability, that characters have to work pretty hard to get, was meant to be thwarted by every single random creature in the world that was born with LLV or DV? IMO, it would be pretty dumb game design if it was. However, if that logic isn't enough, there are rules selections to bring up as well.
2. People focus in on the fact that the HiPS ability is tied to shadow. They get hung up on the fact that DV and LLV eliminate Concealment. But the HiPS ability does not rely on the Concealment granted by shadow to function. It only relies on the physical presence of the shadow itself. It states you can hide out in the open (no cover/concealment) and only need to physically be within 10’ of some sort of shadow to do this. The ability comes from a supernatural (magical) tie to the presence of shadow, not the use of shadow for visual Concealment. DV/LLV eliminates the visual hindrance of Concealment, it does NOT eliminate the presence of shadow.
3. People also get hung up on the description of DV and LLV in the Additional Rules Vision and Light section of the CRB. They fail to realize or take into account there are other relevant rules. The glossary in the CRB also has a detailed description of how DV functions. It has this to say:
Darkvision is the extraordinary ability to see with no light source at all, out to a range specified for the creature. Darkvision is black-and-white only (colors cannot be discerned). It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be. Likewise, darkvision subjects a creature to gaze attacks normally. The presence of light does not spoil darkvision.
IMO, there isn’t going to be any official ruling on whether DV defeats HiPS because the DV description already, very plainly, states it doesn’t function against magical or illusory effects. It doesn’t allow a creature to see anything it couldn’t otherwise see (and provided are two examples of such things: invisible things or illusory things).
4. Similarly, LLV only states that your eyes are so sensitive that you are able to see more acutely under the existing light conditions. Their vision in no way changes the existing light level. A creature’s LLV doesn’t push back or disperse shadow. The shadow is still present, which is all the person with HiPS needs. They don’t actually need concealment, they only need the presence of shadow.
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...stuff...
It's hard to argue with the Shadowlord himself on how these shadow things work.
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See i still disagree, the statement keeps being made that it doesn't matter what the observer can see, as long as the observee is within the range of the dim light. I have tried to use examples to convey why this doesn't work, but that has failed apparently as every time I post someone assumes a very incorrect statement. So first let's clarify. If you, the one hiding, has dark vision you can still hide. Saying otherwise is like saying you cant cast invisibility if you also have see invisibility because you can still see yourself. That logic is preposterous and neither side of the argument believes that.
Following that same train of thought, however, saying that darkvision doesn't stop HiPS is the same as saying that "Yah the bad guy can see me because he can see invis, but I still get the benefits against him."
So let's look at exactly what happens when you use HiPS. You are either blending in with the dimness or maybe you reach out and pull the darkness as if it was tangible and cover yourself with it. But if I can see through darkness, then you are effectively hiding behind an invisible barrier. If you can be seen you can't hide from the creature looking at you. Persons X, Y, and Z may all not be able to see you any longer but for person D you are literally just still standing there.
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Following that same train of thought, however, saying that darkvision doesn't stop HiPS is the same as saying that "Yah the bad guy can see me because he can see invis, but I still get the benefits against him."
Except no, because HIPS isn't hiding in the shadows, it's using a connection to the essence of shadow to be able to hide, y'know, in plain sight.
I am currently laying in my bathtub, in a brightly lit room, as I type this. However, there is a dimly lit hallway about 8' from me. Were I a shadowdancer, I could hide from a dwarf sitting on my toilet right now. It isn't because I'm in the dim light (I'm not, I'm in normal lighting), it's because the dim light fuels my power. The dwarf's darkvision doesn't even enter into it, matter of fact he wouldn't even be able to see the dim light from where he would be sitting.
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No, that is NOT what it states. Plainly or otherwise. You are painting a specific rule (DV vs Invis) into general (DV vs Magic.)
And let's not forget the -specific- rule of "A Creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover" (CRB, pg 173)
HiPS is -hiding- by name. And thus doesn't work against DV. (Though, of course, could be houseruled otherwise.)
Sure, you can also argue otherwise. But even so, that line is still a very specific one in the core rulebook. (Which then turns into 'well, does a creature with 120' darkvision extend that out...')
And how is "As long as she is within 10 feet of an area of dim light, a shadowdancer can hide herself from view in the open without anything to actually hide behind" not a specific rule? Normally (read: general) you can't hide from DV without concealment. However HIPS specifically says you can hide without concealment.
See i still disagree, the statement keeps being made that it doesn't matter what the observer can see, as long as the observee is within the range of the dim light.
That’s understandable considering:
1. An adversary’s acute vision does not change the light level in the room, nor dispel the shadows from existence.2. The actual ability says nothing about needing “concealment” it says you need to be within x distance from shadow.
Following that same train of thought, however, saying that darkvision doesn't stop HiPS is the same as saying that "Yah the bad guy can see me because he can see invis, but I still get the benefits against him."
Those are not the same thing at all. Your example is of a person with a “magical” visual enhancement (which specifically states it counters invisibility) seeing someone with a “magical” effect blocking vision. We are talking about a person with acute “non-magical” vision (which also specifically states it doesn’t see magical effects) trying to see something with a “magical” connection to shadow that allows it to seemingly disappear.
Additionally, examples and anecdotal stories are fine to cage our minds. However, they should be supported with the rules that actually back what you are saying. Comparing oranges and apples is not a good example of why your opinion is supported by RAW.
So let's look at exactly what happens when you use HiPS. You are either blending in with the dimness or maybe you reach out and pull the darkness as if it was tangible and cover yourself with it. But if I can see through darkness, then you are effectively hiding behind an invisible barrier.
It’s fine that those are the ways you choose to wrap your head around what HiPS is doing. But maybe in my mind once that Shadowdancer has blended with the shadow he becomes just as unseen as the shadows you can’t see... (assuming his successful Stealth roll against your Perception).
There’s a problem with applying your own interpretation of what’s happening and then deciding from there what the rules should mean. Anyone can provide anecdotal examples of how to visualize something, that doesn’t mean it’s consistent with the rules. So rather than providing anecdotal examples of how things work in your mind, look at the rules, without trying to justify how they might visually appear, and provide your argument based on RAW.
If you can be seen you can't hide from the creature looking at you. Persons X, Y, and Z may all not be able to see you any longer but for person D you are literally just still standing there.
Your statements is assuming the Shadowdancer can be seen. Again I would stress that the Darkvision description in the CRB glossary indicates it doesn’t see through visually obscuring magical effects.
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I read the first two pages...
I like the interpretation that a Shadow Dancer can Supernaturally "cloak" into dim light from 10 feet away by her connexion to the plane of shadow. Cool. Darkvision averted.
For those that choose this route, what to you do for the other "versions" of Hide in Plain Sight?
No, that is NOT what it states. Plainly or otherwise. You are painting a specific rule (DV vs Invis) into general (DV vs Magic.)
Firstly, it’s not DV vs Invis, you are over simplifying. The rule is:
Darkvision… It does not allow characters to see anything that they could not see otherwise
It goes on to provide a few examples to clarify:
—invisible objects are still invisible, and illusions are still visible as what they seem to be.
It’s not JUST invisibility. It’s citing magic effects that obscure or misdirect one’s sight. Don’t forget that these are examples. The actual rule is: DV does not allow the character to see ANYTHING that they could not see otherwise (meaning they see exactly the same thing that a person with NORMAL vision would see in the same room if that room were in bright or normal light). A Shadowdancer can hide perfectly well in Bright or Normal light if he’s within 10’ of shadow.
And let's not forget the -specific- rule of "A Creature can't hide within 60 feet of a character with darkvision unless it is invisible or has cover" (CRB, pg 173)
Also don’t forget that rule is found in the Vision and Light section, just under the section where it talks about how in dim light and darkness anyone can use the “concealment” from dim light and darkness to use normal Stealth.
It is not talking about what DV actually IS or how it functions. It’s talking about how DV eliminates the concealment aspect of darkness within 60’ and therefore you typically can’t use Stealth, which relies on concealment… “unless you are invisible or have cover.” Those are general rules. HiPS is the specific that trumps the general. Also the section of the Glossary that specifically talks about Darkvision in the Darkvision section is the specific that trumps the general in Additional Rules Vision and Light.
And while we are focused on that poorly worded selection what if I have Darkvision for 120 feet? According to the rule you cited anyone can hide from me, even in my DV radius, as long as they are 65’ or more away from me…
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I read the first two pages...
I like the interpretation that a Shadow Dancer can Supernaturally "cloak" into dim light from 10 feet away by her connexion to the plane of shadow. Cool. Darkvision averted.
For those that choose this route, what to you do for the other "versions" of Hide in Plain Sight?
Same. For the assassin it's still a Su ability that reads "As long as he is within 10 feet of some sort of shadow, an assassin can hide himself from view in the open without having anything to actually hide behind." In fact, it's even more permissive as it only requires a shadow (any shadow other than their own).
For the rogue it's an Ex ability that requires them to be in their favored terrain. But, so long as they are in that terrain, they can do it.
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But we -do- know that it is called "Hide" in plain sight. and DV sees through hide, unless cover or invis is used.
Except that HIPS specifically says it works without cover.
EDUT: Ok, let's break this down a little.
Here's the general rule: you cannot hide while being observed.
The reason DV defeats stealth is because it allows them to be observed unless they are actually behind something or invisible.
HIPS allows you to hide WHILE being observed.
Therefor, DV does not prevent HIPS.
You are making the assumption that HiPS is -meant- to get around darkvision, to argue that it should get around darkvision.
My theory is that both DV and HiPS do exactly what their mechanics state they do:
DV allows one to see as clearly in darkness as a person with normal vision could see in bright light and it removes the benefit of concealment.
HiPS allows you to use Stealth without the need for Cover or Concealment even when being observed as long as within 10' of shadow.
Are you certain it isn't you assuming that DV and LLV were "meant" to defeat HiPS.
We have a rule for HiPS that doesn't mention how it works at all. Is it just hiding, with magic to move the shadow? Is it some planar-warping? We don't know.
We actually do know exactly how it works mechanically.
Basic Stealth requires two things to function:
1. Cover or Concealment.
2. Being unobserved.
HiPS replaces those requirements with:
1. Must be within 10' of shadow.
Therefore, Darkvision, which defeats basic Stealth by taking away the concealment from shadow, has no opportunity to defeat someone using HiPS because they no longer require concealment.
But we -do- know that it is called "Hide" in plain sight. and DV sees through hide, unless cover or invis is used.
Again, a general rule for how DV interacts with basic Stealth and the concealment granted by shadowy light levels.
Does DV see though HiPS? That's of course, up to the GMs in their home games. But by RAW, it does. RAI? It probably shouldn't.
By RAW...? Please cite rules that say DV defeats supernatural abilities called HiPS, or does anything other than remove the concealment granted by shadowy light levels. Because again, you are just citing a general rule that is talking about how DV interacts with the concealment of light levels and basic Stealth.
I read the first two pages...
I like the interpretation that a Shadow Dancer can Supernaturally "cloak" into dim light from 10 feet away by her connexion to the plane of shadow. Cool. Darkvision averted.
For those that choose this route, what to you do for the other "versions" of Hide in Plain Sight?
Assassins and Shadowdancers work exactly the same. There was a post in the forums a long time ago that said the Assassin's entry was an accidental Copy/Paste error from 3.5 and that their terminology of Shadow means Dim Light as the Shadowdancer for Pathfinder.
Rangers and Rogues the ability relies on terrain, not shadow, so there is no argument.
Sorcerer's Shadow Bloodline is similar to Assassin/Shadowdancer, so works the same.
There's also the Hell Cat Stealth feat that gives you a daylight version of HiPS at a -10 penalty to the Stealth Roll. It works IMO, similarly to the Shadowdancer as well, but in light vs shadow.
Did you have any specific versions of HiPS you were asking about?
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I would like to offer some common ground on which I think we can all find agreement.
We agree that neither darkvision nor low-light vision defeats total cover, right?
So our Shadowdancer retrieves a wooden box, 5'x5'x5' from her portable hole. She sets it down, lights the candle inside it, and closes the lid. No one can see inside the box.
A candle, of course, by RAW, illuminates a 5 ft area with dim light.
So everybody agrees that she can Hide In Plain Sight within 10 ft of her box, until the candle goes out, right?
I call it Schrödinger's Candle. It works until someone with darkvision opens the box to observes the candle. That collapses the Wave Function. Of course, "The Wave" is the name of the dance that the Shadowdancer uses to make Hide in Plain Sight function.