Let's say I made all players take a 14/14/14/14/14/14 stat array.
Of course, hybrid classes will be the most benefited, but other martials like Fighters or Monks may get a kick out of it.
Full casters can devote all of their +1s into getting their casting stat to 19 to cast all spells, and their power is limited by their inability to be truly SAD.
Everyone gets more proficient at everything early on.
Race differences start to matter less - A Halfling gets S12 D16 C14 I14 W14 CH16 --, this means they could go Weapon Finesse without losing much potential damage and making DEX-to-damage less of a necessity, because they'd only be 2 or 3 damage behind the STR-based class.
What do you guys think?
Should I make the experiment?
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Sure, go for it. Pet classes will be happy, since pets won't be overshadowed as much.
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Go for it.
It will only hurt individuality (some players may feel like everybody is a cookie cutter of each other), but it won't hurt the game mechanics and it might even tone down, a little bit, the upper-tier SAD characters which can't really hurt anything.
It will also tone down melee damage output so it seems to hurt martials too, but their melee abilities were never the problem - at least now they have a chance to provide some useful non-combat options since they didn't get to dump every ability score that is useful out of combat.
Everyone plays a pet class because PC's aren't meaningfully more powerful than an eidolon (or strictly worse, depending on the PC in question).
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Everyone plays a pet class because PC's aren't meaningfully more powerful than an eidolon (or strictly worse, depending on the PC in question).
Hyperbole junction much?
Everyone plays a pet class because PC's aren't meaningfully more powerful than an eidolon (or strictly worse, depending on the PC in question).Hyperbole junction much?
Other than "I really don't want to", why wouldn't you play a pet class with this array? The main weakness of pet classes is that the pet's stats are generally inferior to an actual PC, but with this setup you've removed that weakness.
Just remember casters will need at least a +2 to their casting stat from their gear to cast 9th level spells, or need a racial bonus to that stat.
Other than that it's fairly balanced. The first campaign in my world (human technology was at simple mechanisms like wheels and pullies but not screws, elf tech was at boats) hosted a straight 14s human protocleric (fighter, who invented the notion of religious worship of dragons) and it worked out nicely as a character.
I'm considering adding a +2 at level 4 rather than +1, but keeping the rest in place.
Yeah, it'd also give a small boost to martials who need more defense or HP and half-martials who need more accuracy.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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Just remember casters will need at least a +2 to their casting stat from their gear to cast 9th level spells, or need a racial bonus to that stat.
If your characters are reaching the level where 9th-level spells are on the table, but having at least a +2 to their main stat from gear isn't a given, then you're pretty far from the baseline expectations of the system. Which is fine, but the OP gave no indication of such adjustments to the metastructure of the game, so we can't assume that being able to cast 9th-level spells is even remotely in doubt.
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If they wanted this they'd be doing it already
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Just remember casters will need at least a +2 to their casting stat from their gear to cast 9th level spells, or need a racial bonus to that stat.
When was the last time you saw someone play a 9-level arcane spell-caster WITHOUT a racial bonus to their casting stat anyway?
I could only see it as an issue with some battle-clerics.
If they wanted this they'd be doing it already
Sorry, forgot to say, my group doesn't usually play with 30 pt. buy so this is not an option usually.
It'd be a bit of a nerf for casters, promote the use of MAD classes, and pets would probably be a bit more OP than usual.
It'd be interesting for a one-shot, but I'm not sure if I'd want to play a full campaign with those stats.
Well, I'm making the experiment.
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Well I wouldn't really be for it as it kills a lot of player agency (a HUGE part of the game) and takes a large amout of uniqueness away from the characters, as they can't really play any kind of personality etc that they want.
On the other hand it is a 30 point buy. What I would do is make it a part of the premise. TRhese stats to me imply a planned being. Like someone was trying to make the perfect flawless human (or insert race here but human works best imo) or even say that they aren't human and are in fact androids or something and can use either the human race stats or the android race stats etc.
The point is you will have taken a big part of the flavor from the game and you should figure out some way of inserting that flavor back into the game. If not like this in some other way. The point is I wouldn't just say that ' okay guys you have 14 base in all stats make ye random character with that for no further reason.'
Could be fun I do like some restrictions/themes in a game.
Shrug, I think players have a TON of agency. As a matter of fact, I think that PB is sort of a false freedom, in that most class/archetypes combinations have an optimal array with little variation.
Trying to transcend PB in a way that gives players more freedom IN PLAYING, rather than character creation.
Interesting.
Hard to sell to most players who, if they are like some people I know, will see it as a nerf ('what do you mean by stopping me having high stats?') rather than as a bonus (higher points).
Me, I'd play the cleric I wanted. You see, clerics can be good at so many different things yet in actual play they have to drop some aspects because they can't afford the stats.
Combat: want high Str, Con, and some Dex.
Casting: high Wis.
Skills: high Int.
Channeling: high Cha.
MAD.
If you want your players to like the idea, perhaps make it so they are all clones (with variations, like race and gender) of some hubristic wizard or godling. And also let them know that there will be methods of changing their stats during play.
Add The Machine of Lum the Mad, or something similar or a more reliable booster if you prefer, and play a truly epic campaign.
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I actually when I build characters tned to either get 16 14 14 10 10 10
or 14 14 14 14 10 10 depending on how many I need for my character and use the racial bonus to boost the one I need most.
The thing about this is the party in total will end up with many more skill points as each party member wouldhave 14 int when otherwise they would not. The fighter might have less problems with will saves early on from 14 wis.
If this started at level 1 if you had something like an animated object or iron cobra and the highest strenght in the party is 14 could be a bit hard and end up with a really frustrating encounter. This is one point that a two handed fighter power attack really shines. If the players are not using a weapon two handed this will end up with a frustrating encounter and possibly a total party kill. Or it would work better if you had a barbarian.
This would more twist the game in different ways at low level.
I tend to take racial bonus on my primary stats always and use the remaining point to be better at other things like surivivalbilty.
Casters won't help much at low levels vs these consturts with immunities and other things.
All 14s across the board sounds simply boring and bland.
I like to incorporate the stats into how i play a character. There is nothing to "grab" at when developing a personality for such a character. he is simply superior to "normals" of his race, but not terribly so.
Decent boost to most martial classes, fairly substantial power reduction to optimized casters.
I support it 100%!
The only real problem I see is that it makes some races almost required for some classes. Or at least makes some combos that were at least options before, now fairly painful.
How about getting rid of racial ability adjustments, and offering two different array options. Something like 16,16,14,12,12,10 or 16,14,14,14,12,10? Note: May require slight tweaking.
I have long been a proponent of evening-out ability scores, rather then having maxed out, and dumped stats. I think the game function much better when characters have stats in the 12-16 range, then the 7-20 range.
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What do you guys think?Should I make the experiment?
Yes.
I actually when I build characters tned to either get 16 14 14 10 10 10
or 14 14 14 14 10 10 depending on how many I need for my character and use the racial bonus to boost the one I need most.
Same here. This is a wonderful opportunity for pretty much any 3/4 bab class.
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It's better than rolling or a low point buy, but not as good as a high point buy in my opinion.
It does seem a bit artificial, and I think that a reasoning should be built into the game.
It does nerf all SAD/BAD classes and encourages MAD classes and multiclassing.
This would be particularly interesting in a gestalt game.
He's saying that these are the values before racial mods, So the premise is that all races are balanced to each other, but that racial mods change that. So it's removing variety within race and having all races roughly equal.
I think it would be fine if your players like the idea. However, I don't think it will actually 'fix' anything or change all that much. Basically when it is all said and done, an SAD character class made this way would have 2 less hit, damage, DCs etc. then a SAD class made in a more traditional fashion. Assuming you are keeping everything else normal in the game, particularly magic items, this difference will decrease relatively over time (+3 vs +5 at first level is a bigger percentage difference than +6 vs +8 with a +6 stat belt.) SAD characters will still be able to buy the attribute enhancers they need faster than MAD characters, so in the long run I expect that the difference between MAD and SAD characters will remain and be about as much of a problem as it ever was.
So if you have to 'force' your players to do this, it probably isn't worth it. If they like the idea then it won't hurt anything and might allow players to feel better about options that they wouldn't normally take, but it probably won't change the game as much as you think it would.
Youre going to upset anyone who wants to play anything not cookie cutter.
"I want to be a Gnome Fighter."
"Great! 12 Strength."
As opposed to 14? Do note a Half Orc could have 16 at most.
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Yeah, the lack of a dump stat is more of an issue than the lack of a high one, RP-wise.
Personally, I think this will work fine mechanically. I've done something midway between this and the normal rules for years and it's worked great.
For the record, what I do is use 25 point-buy, but max stats at 16 before racial bonuses, and only allow one stat below 10, and that no lower than 8 (again, before racial penalties). Some of the same effects, but to a lesser degree.
To fix the dump stat problem, I'd allow people to drop one stat to 10 to raise another to 16, but with the condition that it couldn't be taken above that even with racial stuff. That allows the Str 16 Cha 8 Dwarven Fighter, or the Int 10 Human switch hitter with Str and Dex 16, but helps full casters not at all, or the Str 8, Int 16 Gnome Wizard.
This makes race less of a concern in class choice, but I'm not at all sure that's a bad thing.
I'd try out a character with all 14s. At least once anyways. However, making all players do so seems weird. Obviously mechanical workings like ability scores are separate from role-playing, but choosing my ability scores is part of my process to figure out how to role-play a character.
"I want to play a suave, charming, attractive, 'people-person' type of elven duelist!"
"I want to play a timid, homely, wallflower type of elven cleric!"
"Great! You both have identical Charisma."
"..."
Are you implying that a 14CHA Cleric is the same as a 14CHA Bard?
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I would put another vote for the players to all be artificially created and gained their skills through some sort of magical infusion as the fluff reason for it. The opening session could start as something like Irenicus's dungeon in Baldur's Gate II - where the characters wake up for the first time and have to make their way past all of the rest of their creator's experiments and guardians.
Maybe they weren't quite finished being grown when their creepy wizard creator was killed somehow, so he never got the chance to finish the process of making them all loyal to him.
"I want to play a Roy Greenhilt type of fighter!"
"I want to play a Jayne Cobb type of fighter!"
"Great! You both have identical Intelligence."
"..."
Are you implying that a Fighter with enough skill ranks to max Survival, Climb, Perception and Sense Motive and puts his +2 on STR while picking up ranged weaponry is the same as a Fighter with enough skill ranks to dabble around, takes several versatile training options to max ranks, uses traits to gain more class skills and probably uses Fighter's Tactics with the Martial Master archetype are indistinguishable?
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Are you implying that a Fighter with enough skill ranks to max Survival, Climb, Perception and Sense Motive and puts his +2 on STR while picking up ranged weaponry is the same as a Fighter with enough skill ranks to dabble around, takes several versatile training options to max ranks, uses traits to gain more class skills and probably uses Fighter's Tactics with the Martial Master archetype are indistinguishable?"I want to play a Roy Greenhilt type of fighter!"
"I want to play a Jayne Cobb type of fighter!"
"Great! You both have identical Intelligence."
"..."
Which one's which!? D:
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Are you implying that a Fighter with enough skill ranks to max Survival, Climb, Perception and Sense Motive and puts his +2 on STR while picking up ranged weaponry is the same as a Fighter with enough skill ranks to dabble around, takes several versatile training options to max ranks, uses traits to gain more class skills and probably uses Fighter's Tactics with the Martial Master archetype are indistinguishable?"I want to play a Roy Greenhilt type of fighter!"
"I want to play a Jayne Cobb type of fighter!"
"Great! You both have identical Intelligence."
"..."
They are saying that the tactical genius of a leader and the abrasive rough-and-ready dumb muscle are mandated to have the same intelligence under your system. And the same wisdom for that matter. And the same Charisma. Despite one behaving as if they are far inferior in all three ability scores to the other. Some players may not like this (for proof, look at some of the posts you just replied to).
EDIT: And I don't remember Jayne being particularly perceptive or insightful when it comes to reading people. He is pretty much what you would expect for a fighter who dumped Int, Cha and didn't put Wis particularly high, either. He probably stuck most of his points into Intimidate and took that trait that gives him Strength instead of Charisma to it.
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I agree that if the players are down for this experiment, then go for it! I would definitely have some in-game reason for every character having the exact same stats though. Otherwise you're looking at breaking the suspension of disbelief... If they are not down for it, then I would definitely suggest not forcing them to do it. It sounds like a very interesting premise though.
I more often see people up-playing or downplaying their stats than I ever see someone intentionally role playing their exact stat number.
I see plenty of 20 charisma characters who are unlikeable jerks.
Int 14 wisdom 16 characters who continually make terrible decisions.
Str 25 people who can't tear a doornob clean off a door, oh wait. My bad that's the systems fault with str checks.
If someone is actually angry about having the same stats as someone else, they're exagerating.
Though personally I'd go with 16, 14, 14, 14, 14, 12
Edit: Why is everyone so caught up on stats when skill selection matters way more? It dosn't matter if I have 30 charisma if I never put a rank in Diplomacy. Heck a 30 charisma will have less of a Diplomacy mod than a level 3 character with 10 charisma if they never put a rank in.
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Heck a 30 charisma will have less of a Diplomacy mod than a level 3 character with 10 charisma if they never put a rank in.
Actually - a 30 CHA with no Diplomacy ranks would have the same modifier as a level 7 character with 10 CHA with max ranks in Diplomacy and it as a class skill.