Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster, yadda yadda, the usual junk, I'll spare you the speech and get right to it.
I've been rolling a character concept around in my head for a while: A big, burly, front-line type, wearing light armor ideally--though I could POSSIBLY be talked into medium--and wielding a single dagger. Essentially a strength based rogue, in a sense, but with less reliance on sneak attack.
Though it's not /quite/ exact, the character of Letho from the Witcher 2 provides a decent rough example of what I'm talking about. (Though he dual wields, sometimes, so not a perfect comparison.)
http://orig01.deviantart.net/79ae/f/2014/109/8/c/letho_turntable_render_by_ scratcherpen-d7enzc8.jpg
I'm pretty open to class options or concepts, but the core of the character must remain as follows: Lightly armored, quick on their feet with fast movement and fast weaponry, and (ideally) sturdy enough to not fall over dead when something sneezes at them.
At the moment, I'm eyeing the fighter archetypes Brawler and Weapon Master, but my main experience in Pathfinder is with casters. Martial characters are a bit of a mystery to me, hence why I'm coming here for some advice!
Thanks much!
Have you considered the swashbuckler? The entire class revolves around single-wielding light, one-handed piercing or slashing weapons. The traditional choices are the scimitar, cutlass, and rapier but the dagger qualifies for all the class features.
If you want to both stab with and throw daggers, the flying blade archetype is pretty good.
You get weapon finesse for free with the class so it suggests being dex-based, but you don't have to use it (it's just that dex works better with light armor).
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I was hoping somebody asked. Though I recommend the Kukri over the Dagger.
Ustalavic Duelist archetype Fighter.
Get good STR, CON, INT and DEX.
Feats (for a Human):
1. Toughness, Fast Learner
2. Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack
4. Furious Focus
5. Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon
6. Vital Strike
7. Iron Will
8. Improved Critical
9. Devastating Strike
10. AWT: Armed Bravery
11. Improved Vital Strike
So end result:
Use 1d10 for weapon damage rolls.
Get extra damage through Duelist Stance.
Add your INT to damage on Vital Strike.
Deal max damage on crits.
Plus you can freely move each round.
Seems like the Brawler class (not archetype) is the most obvious way to do this. Close weapon mastery makes their weapon damage with daggers scale, and you get all the benefits of TWF without having to actually use 2 weapons.
EDIT: I guess technically you'd have to use a punching dagger instead of a regular dagger. It would probably be a pretty easy sell to get a GM to allow a regular dagger instead.
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Brawler's your way to go here. They get all the benefits of TWF with one weapon. In fact, here's what you do:
For your first level, take Brawler (Snakebite Striker), for your second, take Rogue (Knife Master). You now have 2d8 Sneak Attack with your dagger.
You can take one more level of Rogue at some point for Evasion, or even 3 more if you go Scout for Sneak Attack on a charge (and Debilitating Injury if going Unchained Rogue, which you should), but that's as much Rogue as you want, probably, and I'd be reluctant to take more than the one level to be honest. The rest of the build is just more Brawler, and stabbing people with your dagger + getting Sneak Attack as many times as you can arrange.
That's pretty much the build. I mean, I could go through Feats, but they're fairly obvious (you probably want Power Attack for when Sneak Attack isn't operating or when their AC is low, you eventually want Accomplished Sneak Attacker, Iron will might not be a bad call, etc.)
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Hello all! Long time lurker, first time poster, yadda yadda, the usual junk, I'll spare you the speech and get right to it.
I've been rolling a character concept around in my head for a while: A big, burly, front-line type, wearing light armor ideally--though I could POSSIBLY be talked into medium--and wielding a single dagger. Essentially a strength based rogue, in a sense, but with less reliance on sneak attack.
Though it's not /quite/ exact, the character of Letho from the Witcher 2 provides a decent rough example of what I'm talking about. (Though he dual wields, sometimes, so not a perfect comparison.)
http://orig01.deviantart.net/79ae/f/2014/109/8/c/letho_turntable_render_by_ scratcherpen-d7enzc8.jpg
I'm pretty open to class options or concepts, but the core of the character must remain as follows: Lightly armored, quick on their feet with fast movement and fast weaponry, and (ideally) sturdy enough to not fall over dead when something sneezes at them.
At the moment, I'm eyeing the fighter archetypes Brawler and Weapon Master, but my main experience in Pathfinder is with casters. Martial characters are a bit of a mystery to me, hence why I'm coming here for some advice!
Thanks much!
Look at the Warpriest. Sacred weapon you could be swinging a dagger for the damage of a great-sword. Being STR is great cause you will be tagging STR and Spells onto the damage. Divine Favor/power, Bull's Str, Righteous Might, ect ect.
I have actually made a Dagger and shield Warpriest and it works out VERY well for not being the Optimal choice of weapons. A whip also is very nice on a warpriest. The low Weapon damage dice is really negated by this class.But the Warpriest does not fully fit your concept of Light armor (Unless you choose to go light armor), Fast movement (this is pretty much a Monk/Barbarian thing...but can be duplicated with magic or Items.), They are more than sturdy however...fervor swift action healing.
The other options out there are:
Brawler, Fighter, Barbarian, Bloodrager, Swashbuckler, Magus, ranger, Bard, Slayer, Alchemist, Cleric, and Investigator.
Bard, Cleric, ranger, Bloodrager and Magus offer a LOT in their packages. Being able to blend magic and Fighting options.
Brawler, Fighter, Swashbuckler, Barbarian, and Slayer are more mundane but can accomplish damage...go figure that is what they are made to do.
The Alchemist or Investigator have tricks and offer utility out of combat with tons of skills.
I would avoid the Rogue and Ninja like the plague...but that is just me as a player. The Core rogue is the worst class in pathfinder and everything it offers other classes can do so much better. The Unchained rogue could be an option but I still would not take it myself as I tend to hate Mundane (non-magical) classes. They bore me and tend to be so much weaker in the end game when having magical options are a necessity to success. But again this is MY OPINION. tons of players do not share it. But after years of playing I stand by it. Most end game fights for a rogue is purely trying to stay alive and picking themselves up after failed saves and/or an attack from a enemy. I am also a hater of any more Levels in swashbuckler beyond Level 5. It really is a great 1 level dip class but the class I feel just is not made for the late game as a single Class. Their saves are just so poor and Precision damage is my least favorite form of damage in the game because of how much shuts it down. Much like a rogues Sneak Attack. On top of being a Critical based class but having a majority of their damage not Multiply when you crit.
Oh man, these are all great! Thanks much, everyone! I've got a lot of material to look at now, and of course any further recommendations are more than appreciated.
Will update further when I've got some solid numbers put onto paper.
If you're using a dagger in one hand, the best bet mechanically is to exploit it for more attacks; Brawler's Flurry is the most obvious choice, though using Crusader's Flurry means that you could use the Unchained Monk's powers with a dagger (with the occasional Flying Kick) to really lay into targets.
If it doesn't break your concept, you could also consider going with a Two-Weapon Warrior Fighter Archetype (you just need 17DEX) that makes dagger strikes with the main-hand and unarmed strikes in your offhand; you're still technically fighting with a single dagger, but you gain huge advantages like being able to use Two-Weapon Rend and the ability to make both a punch and a stab with a single standard attack at level 9.
Oh, and there's the rather oddball option of using an oversized dagger as a "two-handed" weapon, even if you don't style it as such.
Just for the record, my cooky Ustalavic Duelist build also optimises 1H dagger attacks with vital strike, focused weapon, Duelist stance and INT to damage on Vital strikes.
Flying blade swashbuckler is a Swash that focuses on Daggers.
Flying blade swashbuckler is a Swash that focuses on Daggers.
And synergizes nicely with Startoss style as well. The style is going to give you a flat +2 damage to each of your dagger attacks per style feat, but the other two feats in the chain require throwing the thing to use their effect and the flying blade is probably the best dagger-thrower straight out of the box.
Alright, I've got a few options in the works, and more or less know where I want to go with this concept now, but something's bothering me here. Namely, Startoss Style.
By RAW, I suppose, it doesn't /say/ the attack needs to be thrown to gain the +2 to damage, but that feels cheesy as hell. I mean, just looking at the name, as well as the fact that it's consistently listed among the ranged styles, would /seem/ to imply to me that RAI would only apply the bonuses to throwing attacks.
Am I way off base here?
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Alright, I've got a few options in the works, and more or less know where I want to go with this concept now, but something's bothering me here. Namely, Startoss Style.
By RAW, I suppose, it doesn't /say/ the attack needs to be thrown to gain the +2 to damage, but that feels cheesy as hell. I mean, just looking at the name, as well as the fact that it's consistently listed among the ranged styles, would /seem/ to imply to me that RAI would only apply the bonuses to throwing attacks.
Am I way off base here?
Yeah your off base.
That is like Arcane strike working on all "Weapons" Melee, Ranged...RAY attacks/spells.
It is not cheezy because it is limited in the weapons your allowed to benefit from Startoss style.
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I was hoping somebody asked. Though I recommend the Kukri over the Dagger.
Ustalavic Duelist archetype Fighter.
Get good STR, CON, INT and DEX.
Feats (for a Human):
1. Toughness, Fast Learner
2. Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack
4. Furious Focus
5. Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon
6. Vital Strike
7. Iron Will
8. Improved Critical
9. Devastating Strike
10. AWT: Armed Bravery
11. Improved Vital StrikeSo end result:
Use 1d10 for weapon damage rolls.
Get extra damage through Duelist Stance.
Add your INT to damage on Vital Strike.
Deal max damage on crits.
Plus you can freely move each round.
You are ineligible for AWT Feats as you trade away the Weapon Training class feature.
Startoss Style is a ranged style because the startoss comet and shower only work with ranged attacks. The base feat is simply "you are better with weapons that can be thrown" which includes shuriken but also daggers and spears.
You are ineligible for AWT Feats as you trade away the Weapon Training class feature.I was hoping somebody asked. Though I recommend the Kukri over the Dagger.
Ustalavic Duelist archetype Fighter.
Get good STR, CON, INT and DEX.
Feats (for a Human):
1. Toughness, Fast Learner
2. Weapon Focus
3. Power Attack
4. Furious Focus
5. Advanced Weapon Training: Focused Weapon
6. Vital Strike
7. Iron Will
8. Improved Critical
9. Devastating Strike
10. AWT: Armed Bravery
11. Improved Vital StrikeSo end result:
Use 1d10 for weapon damage rolls.
Get extra damage through Duelist Stance.
Add your INT to damage on Vital Strike.
Deal max damage on crits.
Plus you can freely move each round.
I think he would qualify for the "Advanced Weapon Training" feat which only has the prereqs of "Fighter level 5th, weapon training class feature."
According to the FAQ:Archetype: If an archetype replaces a class ability with a more specific version of that ability (or one that works similarly to the replaced ability), does the archetype's ability count as the original ability for the purpose of rules that improve the original ability?
It depends on how the archetype's ability is worded. If the archetype ability says it works like the standard ability, it counts as that ability. If the archetype's ability requires you to make a specific choice for the standard ability, it counts as that ability. Otherwise, the archetype ability doesn't count as the standard ability. (It doesn't matter if the archetype's ability name is different than the standard class ability it is replacing; it is the description and game mechanics of the archetype ability that matter.)Example: The dragoon (fighter) archetype (Ultimate Combat) has an ability called "spear training," which requires the dragoon to select "spears" as his weapon training group, and refers to his weapon training bonus (even though this bonus follows a slightly different progression than standard weapon training). Therefore, this ability counts as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training, such as gloves of dueling (Advanced Player's Guide), which increase the wearer's weapon training bonus.
Example: The archer (fighter) archetype gets several abilities (such as "expert archer") which replace weapon training and do not otherwise refer to the weapon training ability. Therefore, this ability does not count as weapon training for abilities that improve weapon training (such as gloves of dueling). This is the case even for the "expert archer," ability which has a bonus that improves every 4 fighter levels, exactly like weapon training.
and how Duelist Training is worded:
Duelist Training (Ex): At 5th level, an Ustalavic duelist must select the light blades group for the weapon training class feature. The Ustalavic duelist’s weapon training bonus with light blades increases by 1 on attack and damage rolls for every 4 levels he possesses beyond 5th (to a maximum of +4 on attack and damage rolls at 17th level). If he is using his duelist stance, this damage bonus increases by 2. The Ustalavic duelist does not gain weapon training in any other groups as he increases in level. This ability replaces weapon training 1.
It seems to be a prime example of working with the FAQ as counting as Weapon Training.
Lol I guess I didn't have to jump the gun there with a response.
I love the Weapon Master's Handbook, but my least favorite part of the book by far is that it made the question "do I get real weapon training" front and center. It was always there because of gloves of dueling, but those are expensive enough you're generally not thinking about them at chargen (unlike AWT.)
It's just something that should probably be cleaned up somehow; the sohei gets weapon training, the myrmidarch gets weapon training, but the swashbuckler and a bunch of the fighter archetypes (archer, etc.) get ersatz weapon training that works like weapon training but doesn't qualify you for AWT. Now we have the issue where "the class doesn't replace weapon training, it simply forces you to choose one option" (which, you know, could have been done with all the classes that give you ersatz weapon training.)
I love the Swashbuckler, but I hate that it's a different class :P
I would totally group the Slayer, Fighter, Gunslinger, Swashbuckler, Cavalier, Samurai and yeah, even Rogue, under the umbrella of a single full BAB, good FORT/REF class, with archetypes for each.
They'd all get Deeds (but regain deed points differently), bonus feats and so on.
Startoss Style is a ranged style because the startoss comet and shower only work with ranged attacks. The base feat is simply "you are better with weapons that can be thrown" which includes shuriken but also daggers and spears.
Ahhh, that makes sense. It's synchronous with the other style feats, too. I was thinking of it as a "Style of throwing," when in reality it's just a "Style of weapon use." Thanks for the clarification.