Is going Dwarven Rogue worth it?

[BretI]

Edymnion wrote:

Random tidbit everyone always forgets.

Rogues in generally cannot sneak attack in the dark. Basically if the target is not well lit, you cannot sneak attack it.

Dwarves have darkvision, and hence it is never "dark" for a dwarven rogue, and he can sneak attack in pitch black.

This changed a little bit with Pathfinder Unchained. It used to be any concealment prevented Sneak Attack.

Pathfinder Unchained, pg. 20 wrote:

The rogue must be able to see the target well enough to pick out a vital spot and must be able to reach such a spot. A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with total concealment.

It is still true that Darkvision would allow sneak attacks when other races couldn't do it. It is not unique to the dwarven race, half-orcs can also do it. So can several of the races in Advanced Race Guide.

[Zuloph]

My suggestion for a Dwarven Rogue (drawn up to level 5)

1 Fighter (1st level) / 4 Rogue (Unchained)

20 POINT BUY
STR 12 -- ---- =12 (+1)
DEX 17 +1 LVL4 =18 (+4)
CON 12 +2 Race =14 (+2)
INT 13 -- ---- =13 (+1)
WIS 12 +2 Race =14 (+2)
CHA 8 -2 Race =6 (-2)

Feats (*-Rogue Bonus, **Fighter Bonus)
1 - Exotic Weapon Madu
1**- Two Weapon Fighting
2* - Weapon Finesse
3 - Improved Shield Bash
3* - Combat Expertise
5 - Gang up

Rogue Talents
2 - Combat Trick
4 - Weapon Training / Stand Up (optional, swap for whatever you want. You can always get Minor & Major Magic by 6 too)

The reason I go with this point buy is it allows you good saves by level 5 with a 5/8/3 (you don't need quite as high a Con with a level of fighter) not including the Dwarf racial bonuses. Also allows some options with the fighter such as the Brawler Archetype which gets his weapon training (Close Combatant) at level 3. If you use another weapon from the close weapon group too that also counts as a light weapon you're set. Also if you save your second fighter level until level 8 it will allow you to pick up power attack right then.

The nice thing with the Madu, aside from it can not be disarmed, is it changes your penalty for fighting defensively from a -4 to a -2, and if you have 3 ranks in Acrobatics you get a +3 Dodge bonus to AC instead of the normal +2. Also when you use Combat Expertise you will only be taking a -1 penalty for +2 AC at 4BAB. This allows you to switch to a more defensive role.

Gang up allows you to get your flanking bonuses easier as well. You just have to have 2 other allies threatening the opponent, placement does not matter which is quite handy with your 20ft move speed. If your party isn't very melee heavy though you can always swap this for Improved Unarmed strike. Always a useful feat for any rogue.

Edit : OH, I forgot traits. This build allows you to use pretty much whatever. If you want to pick up stuff for the flavour of the character go ham but if you're looking for trait suggestions as well there have been plenty of other excellent ones so far in this thread.

[Unklbuck]

Take 1 level of Fighter...the rest Rogue
High Str and Con, 10 or 12 Dex
Full Plate and great Axe...Power attack of course
Use skill points for perception, Disable Device
Forget Stealth and Acrobatics...use Flanking for your Sneak Attack

High AC Sneak attacking, Power Attacking with a two handed weapon, Trap Disabling rogue

Non traditional but would still be effectice

[Zuloph]

Unklbuck wrote:

Take 1 level of Fighter...the rest Rogue

High Str and Con, 10 or 12 Dex
Full Plate and great Axe...Power attack of course
Use skill points for perception, Disable Device
Forget Stealth and Acrobatics...use Flanking for your Sneak Attack

High AC Sneak attacking, Power Attacking with a two handed weapon, Trap Disabling rogue

Non traditional but would still be effectice

This does indeed work well too. I just don't like the fact you lose out on Evasion which is one of the best qualities for the rogue.

[TwelvePointFivePercent]

Davor wrote:

So, new plan:

Traits: Shield-Trained, Glory of Old

Feats:
1) Shield Proficiency
2) Bonus Rogue: Improved Shield Bash
3) Steel Soul
5) Two-Weapon Fighting

I'd still settle for that. Despite the delayed Steel Soul, I'm one tough dude, and I probably don't NEED two-weapon fighting before 5th anyways.

At this point, I'd just suck it up and take a level of fighter or something.

That way I can have an armor that isn't the elven chain specifically, if I want. Mithral armor in general doesn't lower proficiency requirements, and regardless, the best armor you can get is Celestial Plate Armor.

The extra feat gained can be funneled back into Accomplished Sneak Attacker, if the loss of SA is a concern.

[nate lange]

I really think slayer might be a better option... It gives you shield proficiency, as well as proficiency with all martial weapons which is great for dwarves because they get like half a dozen racial exotic weapons. Your sneak attack progresses slower but you can use the combat style talents to build for Str based 2WF... The only real downside at all is that you have to burn a talent to get trapfinding, but in the grand scheme of things that seems like a small cost.

[Omnitricks]

Breadth of Experience.

[CryntheCrow]

Keep in mind a masterwork buckler can be used by anyone, so you're really only missing out on one AC. Here is my attempt.

Rogar Mace-slag
Dwarf
5 Unchained Rogue

20 Point Buy
Str 12
Dex 19 (+1 level 4 +2 Belt)
Con 14
Int 12
Wis 14
Cha 10

Race: Slag-born
Traits: Glory of Old, Armor Expert or Swift Drinker

Masterwork Rapier
+1 Chain Shirt
Belt of Incredible Dexterity
+1 Buckler
Gloves of Reconnaissance
Hat of Disguise
Ioun Torch
Masterwork Tools (Climb, Disable Device)

Feats:
1: Steel Soul, Weapon Finesse
2: Rogue Talent: Minor Magic (Acid Splash)
3: Extra Rogue Talent: Major Magic (Shocking Grasp)
4: Rogue Talent: Fast Stealth
5: Rogue's Edge: Stealth, Extra Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack

So the general concept here is that the dwarf race in the best in the game for simply adding a lot of survivability on to your character. If the survivability is largely covered by race, then we can exploit sneak attack to easily cover our offense. Acid touch is a touch attack that you can sneak attack with at range, and all the sneak attack damage is both magic and acid. Shocking grasp, while more limited in supply at low levels than the chained version, is still an 8d6 touch attack that is easier to hit on metal-armored foes and deals magic and electric damage. Come out of stealth with a touch attack, and any foe you're fighting is going to have 10 AC, and be debilitated when it comes to attacking or defensing against follow up.

Everything else is just flavor. Build for maneuvers, skills, whatever you like. You've got 9 skill points, and while you don't have much in the way of charisma, significant investment will let you be the party face, scholar, thief, or whatever you want to be. The lack of gold spent on weapons will allow you to buy tons of utility items to make yourself decent in combat, but a god of skill monkeys. Just know that for RP purposes? You're from a shamed clan. The biggest determiner of your playstyle is actually whether you pick armor expert or accelerated drinker. Armor expert, you'll have no armor check penalty with masterwork chain mail, and you'll eventually work your way up to a mithral breastplate. What the drinker lacks in armor class, he makes up for in potion-downing. Vanish, true strike, whatever you need, he can chug. Rogues have little other use for their swift actions, anyways.