| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The huge advantage of a dwarven rogue is darkvision. Sneaking around in total darknes when you can't see in the dark sucks. Dwarves don't have that problem.
Aside from that, it is a non-optimal race for a rogue, and the rogue class is non-optimal in almost every way you can imagine. They got *some* minor boosts from Unchained, so that's something. Still and all, you don't always absolutely need to be Mr MinMax Optimiser. Play a Dwarven rogue and go to town with it. Lots of cool options, lots of RP potential. Plus, you can talk like a Scottish pirate and almost nobody will roll their eyes. Much. <g>
Some folks will tell you that you can build a better "rogue" by taking a different class than the "rogue" class. But who defines "better"? Only you can decide what flavor of fun you want to have.
I love the concept of a dwarf rogue. I think they're definitely playable. As far as power comparisons versus other races or classes, my guess is that the optimizer crowd will say not as good as some other options.
Seriously, no-one has mentioned the single most important flaw of Dwarf Rogues?
If your group uses traits, the Charisma penalty can be offset a bit with Student of Philosophy. The big draw to a Dwarf Rogue is Darkvision and the +2 on saves against poisons and spells since both will often target your worst saves. A Dwarf Rogue is certainly doable, the main issue you will have is the movement speed for setting up flanks. If you have someone casting Haste in combat though, it's less of an issue. If you're playing a melee rogue, try to make sure you can get sneak attack at all times because it accounts for the large majority of your damage. The Press to the Wall and Circling Mongoose feats are a great help with getting sneak attack.
By the way since you've listed it in your Pros list, don't forget that while encumbrance doesn't effect your movement speed, you still take the other penalties associated with being encumbered.
|
You will be good at saves, what normally a rogue isn't.
Hardy Racial trait is very strong and you can pair it with Glory of Old and with Steel Soul.
With your CON and WIS bonus you will be kinda great vs. spells.
When you are not interested in CHA at all and have high enough point buy/rolls, then your STR/DEX/INT won't suffer.
When you want your rogue to have good social stuff, you can always get a level of the inquisitor class (or cleric). There are inquisitions out there like this: Conversion Inquisition.
@Edit: The dip won't hurt at all. When you decide to be one level cleric you can get a 2nd domain, too. Travel Domains nets you 10 ft. movementspeed. Casting Orisons is also a nice bonus.
|
Pros:
Bonuses to Con and Wis, two easily neglected stats for a Rogue.
Speed is never lowered by encumbrance (carry everything, no consequences)
A plethora of defensive racial traits against Giant attacks, poisons, spells, and leg-based combat maneuvers.
Bonus to Appraise
Stonecunning
DarkvisionCons:
Slow speed, 10 ft/round slower
Weapon Familiarity favors non-TWFable weapons (unless there's a Dwarven Shortsword out there somewhere)
No racial bonus to perception
Penalty to Charisma impacts Bluff thereby FeintsIs there anything else I'm missing?
I'm inclined to favor a Dwarven Rogue simply on the grounds of Stonecunning and the defensive racials. This makes them less likely to wane as a front-liner, pairing up with the fighter for the Flank Buddy System. But I can definitely see that -10 speed putting a damper on the FBS.
How far behind the average feasible rogue build am I if I start as Rogue, if at all?
If the 20 feet speed is a problem, just remember you should only have to tough it out a few levels before you can get a cheap item to boost your speed. Alternatively you could use a Rogue Talent (Major Magic) to pick up Expeditious Retreat as a Spell-Like Ability, but it would be a bit of a waste - I'd be more tempted to try doing a throwing weapon user or ranged Rogue to get around the slower speed.
You will be good at saves, what normally a rogue isn't.
Hardy Racial trait is very strong and you can pair it with Glory of Old and with Steel Soul.
Another set of feats good for dwarves is the fairly recent Dwarven hatred line of style feats it takes the first two feats for it to be useful but you can start applying your limited defensive training and hatred racial traits against anyone you're fighting (giving a nice +4 AC boost or a small attack boost...)
|
|
Dwarf Rogue isn't quite as good offensively as some builds, but the defenses seem to make up for it. Let's examine a Dex based one on 20 point-buy:
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 6
That's a terrible face, but makes a great Rogue in the party with, say, an Oracle or Sorcerer to do face stuff, and does everything else a Rogue is supposed to do pretty casually. They're not as god as the Dex 18 Rogue in combat, but only by a little and they're so very durable...
Then take Steel Soul and Glory of Old at 1st and your Saves are actually almost Paladin level vs. spells (By 8th, you've got +10, +15, +10 not counting a Cloak).
|
|
I'd drop Con by two and put it into strength or dex. Dex with weapon finesse means you hit a lot more. Strength gives you a point of damage useful when trying to get past DR.
Dropping Con to 14 for Dex 17 is a possibility. Str is a bit pointless since I was rather assuming Unchained Rogue. Int 14, Wis 14 is another valid stat-swap that's possible, if you like.
If you're talking non-Unchained Rogue, don't do it. Not because of the Dwarf part, but because of the Rogue part.
I'd take Shadow Dancer as soon as you can. You can hide in plain sight at first level. That ability pretty much means with a high stealth and a bit of planning you can sneak attack everytime. Nifty little fact. Hide in plain sight can be activated by taking a five foot step which still allows a full round of actions so you can sneak attack again and again.
This is not necessarily a bad call. Might want to stop after a level, though.
Yeah, you're much better off flanking with a melee rogue because of this. Hide in Plain Sight could be useful for sniping with a ranged weapon when the terrain isn't in your favour though.
"If you've already successfully used Stealth at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack and then immediately use Stealth again. You take a –20 penalty on your Stealth check to maintain your obscured location."
The only issue is that while there are feats to negate the sniping penalties, you'll have to roll stealth for each attack so you'll need a very high stealth modifier.
Seriously, no-one has mentioned the single most important flaw of Dwarf Rogues?
?
A dwarf rogue is not optimized. Most guides you will find will suggest against it.
However, it's certainly not bad. You can absolutely make it worth it. You will never compete with the power gamers for most OP character, but you will absolutely be effective if you build right.
So to answer OPs question, yes, dwarven rogue is worth it if you would enjoy the character.
I love the concept of a dwarf rogue. I think they're definitely playable. As far as power comparisons versus other races or classes, my guess is that the optimizer crowd will say not as good as some other options.
If you're optimizing to max capacity there is literally no other option than Ratfolk, and since you can't exactly expect everyone to play a Ratfolk it's not a big deal.
Dwarf Rogue isn't great, but it isn't bad either. Not like you're working with a dexterity penalty or anything.
As others said, although not optimal a dwarven rogue can be fun and more survivable. The stonecunning can help with traps.
If you really want two weapon fighting, mix the Rogue with at least one level of a character class that gives martial weapons. That allows you to use the dwarven urgrosh for two weapon fighting. I think many dwarven rogues would mix in a bit of a more martial class anyways.
|
|
As others said, although not optimal a dwarven rogue can be fun and more survivable. The stonecunning can help with traps.
If you really want two weapon fighting, mix the Rogue with at least one level of a character class that gives martial weapons. That allows you to use the dwarven urgrosh for two weapon fighting. I think many dwarven rogues would mix in a bit of a more martial class anyways.
You could also just TWF with short swords or daggers like most Rogues, if you like.
You could also just TWF with short swords or daggers like most Rogues, if you like.As others said, although not optimal a dwarven rogue can be fun and more survivable. The stonecunning can help with traps.
If you really want two weapon fighting, mix the Rogue with at least one level of a character class that gives martial weapons. That allows you to use the dwarven urgrosh for two weapon fighting. I think many dwarven rogues would mix in a bit of a more martial class anyways.
If you do go with a double weapon, be sure that it's finesseable.
TWF combined with relying on STR is a bad idea, dwarven urgrosh or no.
Depends on the setting.
Dwarven Rogues are INSANE in Mega Dungeons, or APs where most of the adventure happens underground/in dungeon settings.
Dwarf Ranger(warden)/Rogue into Horizon Walker, using your rogue talents to get more favored terrain and your spare feats to get more rogue talents.
When every area counts as Favored Terrain(underground), you will be incredible.
Since stonecunning gives you a free chance to spot secret doors, you have a solid synergy between race and build.
In more urban or arboreal settings, as others have said, dwarf rogues don't synergize quite as well, but there's still no harm in it.
Your bonus to Constitution with make you more likely to survive a fight, Wisdom bonus will make you spot traps better, Hardy will let you get more mileage out of your Evasion.
The slow move speed will hurt a little, but that is offsetable with items or multiclassing (barbarian, bloodrager, cleric or inquisitor with Travel, Flames oracle with Cinderdance, for instance), and the Charisma penalty will definitely mean you aren't the face man.
But in the end, you won't be any worse off than any other race.
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Alternatively, you could build a pretty tanky unchained rogue as a dwarf. With some elven chainmail, a darkwood shield, and a finessable weapon (or, heck, just grab Shield-Trained and treat Heavy Shields as a simple, light weapon), you could actually be pretty durable. Rocking high saves, a solid AC, and much higher HP than most rogues, you can wade into your flanking position just fine. If you need to ensure that you don't get hit, just apply your Debilitating Injury debuff to Attack instead of AC. Giving your target a -4/6/8 to attacks against you should ensure that you don't get hit.
Edit*: You could always go for the best of both worlds and take Two-Weapon Fighting and Improved Shield Bash and just DUAL-WIELD SHIELDS. In fact, that's my recommendation: A dual-shield dwarf rogue. Character concept status: stored.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Stealth via HiPS allows a single attack to be a sneak attack. It doesn't allow a full attack though because you break stealth immediately after making the first attack roll.We found out that a full attack still is treated as a surprise attack meaning you get sneak attack damage on all of them.
You are mistaken. If you are house ruling it that way, it becomes more valuable, but when you make any attack roll stealth immediately ends.
Breaking Stealth: When you start your turn using Stealth, you can leave cover or concealment and remain unobserved as long as you succeed at a Stealth check and end your turn in cover or concealment. Your Stealth immediately ends after you make and attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below).
Stealth via HiPS allows a single attack to be a sneak attack. It doesn't allow a full attack though because you break stealth immediately after making the first attack roll.We found out that a full attack still is treated as a surprise attack meaning you get sneak attack damage on all of them.
There's no such thing as a "surprise attack" by the rules. If you catch an opponent flatfooted, you can full attack and get sneak attack on all of your attacks but that is entirely separate from stealth. For example, if you beat someone in initiative and they haven't acted yet, they would be flatfooted and you could get sneak attack on a full attack from that scenario.
As per the rules, soon as you attack, you break stealth. There are a few exceptions like the Sniping rules I quoted a few posts back but otherwise, you break stealth upon attacking.
From the rules:
"Your Stealth immediately ends after you make an attack roll, whether or not the attack is successful (except when sniping as noted below)."
Edit: Looks like Imbicatus beat me to it.
|
|
Alternatively, you could build a pretty tanky unchained rogue as a dwarf. With some elven chainmail, a darkwood shield, and a finessable weapon (or, heck, just grab Shield-Trained and treat Heavy Shields as a simple, light weapon), you could actually be pretty durable. Rocking high saves, a solid AC, and much higher HP than most rogues, you can wade into your flanking position just fine. If you need to ensure that you don't get hit, just apply your Debilitating Injury debuff to Attack instead of AC. Giving your target a -4/6/8 to attacks against you should ensure that you don't get hit.That's pretty feat intensive, but it sound like fun.
An attempt at a build:
U-rogue
Traits: Shield Trained, Glory of Old1B - Weapon Finesse
1 - Two-Weapon Fighting
2B - Improved Shield Bash (can't afford a heavy darkwood shield before 2nd level, and weapon finesse applies shield ACP)
3 - Steel Soul
5 - Medium Armor Proficiency(for some mithral medium armor)Base Stats(20 point buy)
Str 10 Dex 16 Con 16 Int 12 Wis 16 Cha 6Could also exchange the two points of int for some more con or wisdom. This build has ~22 dex at level ~8, which I think is pretty all right. Sword & Board is even more expensive than TWF, sadly - and you don't even get Shield Mastery before 15th level at the earliest.
Still, I'd play this. I'd probably take my finesse training with a rapier, or something like that.
You don't need Medium Armor Proficiency. Elven Chainmail counts as light for the purposes of proficiency. Also, you can take finesse training with Heavy Shields (since you're proficient with them). I'd also probably swap the choice of two-weapon fighting/steel soul. You don't really NEED two-weapon fighting at low levels, and the bonus to saves is really nice.
I played a dwarf rogue once, it worked out just fine. The lower speed isn't much of a problem to be honest - you generally don't want to be the first into melee anyhow, and 20 feet is plenty of room to set up flanks. The extra defensiveness is great, as is sneak attacking with a dwarven waraxe.
|
|
You don't need Medium Armor Proficiency. Elven Chainmail counts as light for the purposes of proficiency. Also, you can take finesse training with Heavy Shields (since you're proficient with them).
Heavy shields are one-handed non-finesseable weapons.
Light shields, on the other hand are light weapons. TWF with light spiked shields is a very viable plan, if you want.
Both, however, are martial weapons Rogues lack proficiency in, so there's that hurdle to overcome.
|
Quick answers?
- Darkvision
- No speed decreases so you can mitigate the copper conundrum much better
- tons of good nonstat based buffs like boosted saves vs. poison & spells and boosted AC vs giants
- Good weapon familiarities with solid damage like battleaxes, warhammers, and heavy picks to hit with
- Good Con and Wis help you take more hits and spot bad guys sooner.
Now if you are looking to twf battleaxe and warhammer are solid choices for your main and then you can grab a shortsword for you side arm. As for the Cha penalty to feint you'll likely not need it as much as you think since you can get SA through surprise rounds and flanking. That said the biggest issues I can see you getting into are stealth speed (you're going to go 10ft to stealth so fast stealth is a must) and armor check penalties if you are hauling a bunch (which again effects stealth). Best counters to that beyond things like fast stealth are likely a good ranged weapon to open fights up like a heavy crossbow or Longbow to get that sneak early while you have distance bonuses to your stealth check and cycle into your melee. Second is to realize your stealth will likely suck if you are the one hauling everything out of the tomb and should probably invest in a handy haversack or bag of holding asap.
Beyond that you're pretty good, though if you wanna play like an assassin or damage focused build I suggest the slayer.
|
|
You don't need Medium Armor Proficiency. Elven Chainmail counts as light for the purposes of proficiency. Also, you can take finesse training with Heavy Shields (since you're proficient with them).Heavy shields are one-handed non-finesseable weapons.
Light shields, on the other hand are light weapons. TWF with light spiked shields is a very viable plan, if you want.
Both, however, are martial weapons Rogues lack proficiency in, so there's that hurdle to overcome.
Uh... Shield-Trained Trait
|
|
Rogues are not proficient with shields. Now taking a level of fighter solves this or a feat. A shield is well worth the extra AC in tougher fights. However you can kinda get this ac boost with feats Two Weapon Defense and Dodge. You also need Dodge to get into Shadow Dancer.
UMMMMMMMM...
Uh... Shield-Trained Trait
Do you know what deity that trait requires? Hopefully it's Torag.
Uh... Shield-Trained Trait
I don't think that gives you shield proficiency. It allows you to attack with shields, but not to use them as shields without penalty.
Do you know what deity that trait requires? Hopefully it's Torag.
|
|
Do you know what deity that trait requires? Hopefully it's Torag.
Gorum. The thing is, all you have to do is revere Gorum or have him as part of your background. Heck, you could be a Paladin with this trait, as you don't even need to be near Gorum's alignment.
It's a bit finicky, but it isn't terribly difficult to work in.
Uh... Shield-Trained TraitI don't think that gives you shield proficiency. It allows you to attack with shields, but not to use them as shields without penalty.
Heavy and light shields are considered simple weapons rather than martial weapons for you.
Rogues are proficient with all simple weapons,
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I believe Matt is referring to proficiency in shields as a shield. Brawlers used to get tripped up on this prior to the ACG errata because they were proficient with shields as a weapon but not as a thing that gives you an AC bonus.
That trait is probably more for classes that get shield proficiency but not martial proficiency, like clerics.
|
|
I believe Matt is referring to proficiency in shields as a shield. Brawlers used to get tripped up on this prior to the ACG errata because they were proficient with shields as a weapon but not as a thing that gives you an AC bonus.
That trait is probably more for classes that get shield proficiency but not martial proficiency, like clerics.
Right, which is why you wait until you can afford a Darkwood Heavy Shield (likely before level 2, which removes the ACP, along with any reason not to wear one).
Edit*: NVM, I see what you're saying. Improved Shield Bash requires Shield Proficiency to take, which could be the issue. At any rate, even taking just Shield Proficiency is probably worth it (Combat Trick rogue talent?).
A dwarf Brogue would be cool. Split barbarian and rogue go strength build and rage sneak attack stuff. I saw someone do this with a human and it was really funny to watch.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So, new plan:
Traits: Shield-Trained, Glory of Old
Feats:
1) Shield Proficiency
2) Bonus Rogue: Improved Shield Bash
3) Steel Soul
5) Two-Weapon Fighting
I'd still settle for that. Despite the delayed Steel Soul, I'm one tough dude, and I probably don't NEED two-weapon fighting before 5th anyways.
|
|
A dwarf Brogue would be cool. Split barbarian and rogue go strength build and rage sneak attack stuff. I saw someone do this with a human and it was really funny to watch.Might be kind of hard to role-play a shoe though. :-P
Dwarven Brogues are made for reciting poetry.
Random tidbit everyone always forgets.
Rogues in generally cannot sneak attack in the dark. Basically if the target is not well lit, you cannot sneak attack it.
Dwarves have darkvision, and hence it is never "dark" for a dwarven rogue, and he can sneak attack in pitch black.