I am intrigued by the bolt ace archetype for the gunslinger, so i am giving it a shot for an upcoming game.
But, our party lacks any reliable emergency healing, I figured an arcane duelist bard would give us some nice limited support while synergizing with the bolt ace (I hope).
I am hoping to be a primary damage dealer, with support options.
I have never player a bolt ace OR a bard, so I am not sure if I am taking the most optimal route. I am hoping the community can help me out.
And yes, I know a ranger or zen archer monk with compound bows are superior archers, and I know pure bard has better spell casting. I am wondering how i can make the bolt ace into a damage dealer with ok support on top. My stats are pretty good from my rolls, letting me be a little MAD. (13,18,13,10,16+2,17).
I am playing a Human, Bolt ace 1 to start.
I chose light crossbow (over repeating), rapid reload (necessary feat tax), and point blank shot (necessary tax for archer line).
Arcane duelist will give me arcane strike at lvl 2, making my crossbow magic, and hit a little harder.
Is this the right way to go, do I have the best crossbow?
Is there a better bard class I am missing?
What feats and order and amount of multiclassing should I take?
I there some must have gear for bards or bolt aces early?
Thank you in advance.
Bard wants one thing: more levels in bard.
If you'd like to be a ranged utility Bard, I'd honestly recommend going Arrowsong Minstrel. You can find a build for it on my Character Select guide.
I wouldn't put your plus 2 into wis. I'd put it into Dex.
You're planning on only 1 level of bolt ace? Most I've heard of say go 5 so you can get dex to damage, otherwise you're damage will be quite low using a crossbow. That means you either do lower damage for 4 levels and have no lvls of bard till lv6, or you delay your damage for every bard level.
Well, bard can certainly add damage with performance and arcane strike.
Consider what you are actually getting from arcane duelist. If it is armor...meh, since you are an archer, you run up against max dex fairly easily (so a 6 of 1 situation). If it is for the bonus feats...well, fair enough.
I personally would be more tempted to go with dawnflower dervish if I wanted to be a primary damage dealer. It gets double inspire courage, but it only applies to itself. That ends up starting like you had rage, and ending with attack bonuses on par with any of the full BAB classes (ie- 23 vs. 24 here). Kind of 'selfish', compared to the normal buffer bard...but if you are here to just murder things, then it is fine. Also, it lets you start performances as a move from the get go (level 6, I assume with this multiclass) rather than waiting until level 7 (level 12 here). Swift action at level 10 (15)
Since that applies to attack/damage in general, it applies to your ranged attacks. Assuming Bolt Ace 5/Bard 15, you would get +6/+6 from inspire courage, +4 damage from arcane strike, and +1/+1/Crit 19-20/x3 from bolt ace (along with dex to damage). So decent enough, especially considering the fact that you are an archer that can full attack at will.
1 level of bolt ace really doesn't give you that much (you get a grit pool, a crossbow, and 3 deeds). The traditional exit for Bolt Ace is "get to level 5 for Dex to Damage and then be something else."
I absolutely understand that someone would want to use a crossbow for flavor reasons, but they're really not as good as bows, not only because of the rapid reload feat tax but also because you can't use manyshot (among other reasons.) So consider how integral the "crossbow" is to doing what it is you want to do, since a bard with a bow can be pretty good without another class attached.
If you want to be an archer bard, be an archer bard. Human can get PBS and precise shot at first level.
If you want to be a bolt ace, you're probably better off using your free crossbow for a heavy repeating crossbow, and taking point blank shot and either precise shot or rapid shot as your feats, then whichever of those two you didn't take as your 3rd level feat.
If you really want to mash the two up, you can, but it may not be as optimal as sticking with one or the other.
What's the rest of your party like? If there's a lot of people doing damage with weapons, they'll be really happy to have a bard inspiring courage. If not, then your other option is an archeologist or a Dawnflower Dervish (which even though the theme of the class is all about the scimitar, works just fine as an archer). With Archeologist, if you take fate's favored, your luck points will give you +2 to start with instead of +1, and you can take lingering performance to make it a swift action and 1 luck point to give yourself bonuses for three rounds.
The campaign we are going to be playing is a no guns, low wealth game, so gunslinger vanilla is out.
The party is an unchained barbarian, a debuffer witch, and a sneak attacking slayer/inquisitor.
I need to fill the roles of both support/heals, and our primary ranged option. My plan was to go Bolt ace 5 for dex to damage, taking the usual necessary feats, then continuing with bard the rest of the way.
(Bolt ace, Bard, Bolt ace x4, bard x14). My goal, I think is a mwk heavy crossbow when I get crossbow mastery.
As to many of the points addressed here:
I have played many archers before, and I would really like to move away from that usual track and explore a class that many claim is a great archetype (that should never be taken, ever, but is really great, just don't take it).
Bolt ace does not provoke when reloading if he has a grit point, so a min grit 2 seems handy. Which also makes him a lot handier a class than some advise.
Grit can be used to target touch AC at crossbow range vs a single target, making my already good to hit even better for select targets. As well it looks like nothing replaces the deeds: pistol whip, gunslinger initiative, or dodge.
I can't seem to find this Arrowsong Minstrel bard class anywhere on Paizo or d20, is it a specific build style or a 3rd party option?
I could be selfish and take bonuses to my own to hit, but I think the martials would benefit a lot more from it than I would.
I am still torn between light (move and shoot), and heavy (avg 1-2 extra damage, but loss of move and shoot).
Why is a repeating crossbow and no rapid reload, better than a light/heavy and rapid reload? 5 attacks, fullround reload clip, vs 1 attack, free action reload (with no aoo)? I feel that 5 attacks would have me empty just as the fight gets to the critical point.
I considered taking fighter for crossbowness, but the lack of ability to add dex to damage, provoking aoo on reload, not getting a mwk crossbow free at start, lack of proficiency with repeating/launching crossbows means my bonus feats would be used up catching up to the bolt ace.
Is there a way to make a decent mix of crossbowman and bard mix? my goal is not so much optimization as it is avoiding the worst options.
I can't seem to find this Arrowsong Minstrel bard class anywhere on Paizo or d20, is it a specific build style or a 3rd party option?
It's in Arcane Anthology, which just came out. It usually takes a few weeks for things to get added to the various SRDs.
I can't seem to find this Arrowsong Minstrel bard class anywhere on Paizo or d20, is it a specific build style or a 3rd party option?It's in Arcane Anthology, which just came out. It usually takes a few weeks for things to get added to the various SRDs.
Ah thank you.
Sounds like you have a good build, though I'd suggest that you get plenty of damage as a Bard - skip the Bolt Ace 2-5.
However:
Why is a repeating crossbow and no rapid reload, better than a light/heavy and rapid reload? 5 attacks, fullround reload clip, vs 1 attack, free action reload (with no aoo)? I feel that 5 attacks would have me empty just as the fight gets to the critical point.
Light + Rapid Reload = 1d8, free action. Heavy + Reload = 1d10, move action reload. Repeating Heavy + Exotic proficiency = 1d10, free action reload. And you get the proficiency (and the crossbow) for free. Repeating Light would be inferior to the Light + Rapid, except for the feat cost.
Trade Rapid Reload for Rapid Shot, and/or Deadly Aim.
If you are the healer buffer Screw Bard. Most Cleric spells are designed to Buff starting with Bless. They have more healing restorative spells then a Bard. The advantage of a Cleric is you can prepare your spells for what you face that day with a Bard you are stuck. Clerics offer Domains which depending on what you pick buff you.
Fighter over Bolt Ace hands down. At about seventh at most you will have feats that give you the ability to not only fire but reload a crossbow without ever suffering attacks of opportunity without worrying about Grit. The ability to fire at Touch AC is nice but requires Grit that goes quick in combat no matter how much you have or regenerate it in combat.
Occultist suffer from lower and more limited spells then a Bard but they offer personal abilities and buffs that make them well worth that trade of off spell power.
Well, in that line of thought, based off of the 'buffer' bit, then wouldn't warpriest be better? Less spell levels, but they get swift action casting for self buffs. Otherwise, same list and method.
That is one of the advantages of bard when you start getting levels- you won't have to spend a standard action. Admittedly, the deal is much better with dawnflower dervish (since they start off as move, and go to swift at 10, rather than 7/13).
A warpriest must choose and prepare his spells in advance.
Putting aside the buffing issues (Selfish or party), or even the ranks in Bolt Ace (1 or 5).
And putting aside the whole bows do it better, we know they do, but assuming I am committed to using a crossbow, what is the superior option?
Repeating heavy? light? heavy? Launching (probably not)?
Is crossbow mastery ever worthwhile?
Rapid shot is a must for increasing damage.
Point blank, precise shot, deadly aim are also must haves.
What is the optimal order of taking them, at what levels MUST they be taken by? Are there more feats useful for crossbow users?
Is rapid reload worth taking? And does it apply to the repeating crossbow clip? RAW appears to claim yes, RAI seems to imply no. The few discussions I have found do not really come to any conclusion, or devolve into discussions how the bow is better (it is, we know).
Why is the community so dead set against the iconic crossbow? Even for flavor?
cause it is such an awful weapon in pathfinder. It's weak, clunky and expensive.
Putting aside the buffing issues (Selfish or party), or even the ranks in Bolt Ace (1 or 5).
And putting aside the whole bows do it better, we know they do, but assuming I am committed to using a crossbow, what is the superior option?
Repeating heavy? light? heavy? Launching (probably not)?
I like to wield a Hand Crossbow and Light Shield when I need to be defensive, and a Launching Crossbow when I use Alchemists Fire: Depends on the situation.
A Light or Hand Crossbow would be the Best choice, as Rapid Reload reduces reloading to a Free Action for them. Rapid Reload also removes the only point to a Repeating Crossbow in this case, so take the cheaper Crossbow.
Is crossbow mastery ever worthwhile?
Not for a level 1 Bolt Ace, Corsair Fighter though...
Rapid shot is a must for increasing damage.
Point blank, precise shot, deadly aim are also must haves.
What is the optimal order of taking them?
Point-Blank > Precise Shot > Rapid Shot > Deadly Aim.
Is rapid reload worth taking?
Ablsoultly! you want it as your feat just before Rapid Shot.
Why is the community so dead set against the iconic crossbow? Even for flavor?
Because some people can't understand an option you choose for your character if it isn't optimal. Ignore them and play what you want.
So, just retired my bolt ace/slayer. Here's what I know:
5 levels of bolt ace will do it, the rest can go wherever.
Your main stat is dex, followed by wisdom.
A bolt ace has no use for charisma, the bard main stat.
So, I'm going to suggest bolt ace/inquisitor, or bolt ace/warpriest. Both allow for what you want to do, with healing, support, and shooting.
I'd start with one level of the caster class, followed by five levels of bolt ace, then back to the caster class.
You can stumble through with wands and scrolls for a while.
The Evangelist Cleric could be an alternative to Bard for a Wisdom baised Bardic Performance
The evangelist's basic performance is still based off of charisma
The evangelist's basic performance is still based off of charisma
Oops, I forgot to attach the Reformation Inquisition
Your bardic performance is still based on charisma even with that inquisition
Fascinate is the only Charisma based performace for the Evangelist.
CounterSong uses Perform: Oratory.
The primary reason you'd want something like Bolt Ace would be for Dexterity to Damage on your shots. Not unreasonable, especially considering it's a bloody Crossbow.
If you're concerned about lack of healing, and you don't mind being a Lawful Good character, picking a Paladin archetype would really help out. The Divine Hunter archetype gives you free Precise Shot (without having to pick Point Blank) at 1st level, Smite, and capitalizes on your high Charisma when you take your 2nd level in it, providing Lay on Hands and Divine Grace. Taking this for your first level, you're already online, as you have your bonus feat Precise Shot, your standard feat Point-Blank, and your Human feat can be for Rapid Reload. Not to mention solid damage against Evil creatures.
This gives you solid damaging potential against the real badguys, and extremely powerful defenses, and some utility. (Did I also mention you'll still eventually get spellcasting with some neat utility?)
Although this means you'll have to take Bolt Ace at 3rd through 7th, your high Dexterity gives you a really high to-hit chance, good AC, Reflex Saves through the roof, etc.
Another alternative would be to take levels in Ranger, which provides you even more Bonus Feats, but at the cost of reduced damage, but with higher utility, as 6 Skill Points/level is really nice, and there are a lot of utility spells.
Some archetypes, such as the Guide, or the Witchguard, are really useful as well, and provide even further utility in exchange for certain other aspects.